Hi, I have a 98 416C IT backhoe. I purchased used. It was well maintained and runs good. My heater in the cab only blows cold air. There is a dial on the side panel for temperature control and a hi low switch for the fan. Trouble is it only blows cold air, even when the dial is on high. Its winter now and gets a bit cold in the cab. Is there a switch somewhere that could be shut off or could it be the thermostat is too cold for this climate. I have looked around the engine and above the rear differential and didn't see a ball valve or switch. I can see the cable coming from the dial that controls the heat, and it seems to be working like it should. The machine spent most of its life in a warmer climate. I don't have a shop manual any more, it was lost in our house fire. Thanks
there is a toggle switch that has three positions heat, off and cool however on my 450 cat the dial for temp settings is connected to a cable, there is a cable stay that holds the sheath of the cable steady allowing the inner cable to move inside of it and move the blend door from hot to cold. the cable stay broke that holds the sheath and although the dial moved from hot to cold it didn't change the temp. its located directly behind the control panel housing the control knob. hope this helps
Hi, Thank you for replying. I was under the machine and could see the cable and the switch or 'blend door' and it seemed to be working as it should, moving the switch, on one of the hoses coming from the heater core.
are the hoses warm? maybe there is a shut off on a coolant line
The hoses are slightly warm, maybe needs to be heated up for a longer period. I only idled the machine for about 45 minutes, I didn't work it while checking the lines. It blows cold air after being worked all day. I did look for a shut off on the the coolant lines, I haven't found one yet.
Not many diesel engines will get very warm from a cold start unless they have a load put on them. You could try putting a tarp over the radiator unless it has a summer fan (blows out). BUT, keep a close watch on the engine temp while it is covered. this thred may or may not help you. ----> HeavyEquipmentForums
On the left side next to the injection pump is a small brass valve. Its a bit larger then what you find on the bottom of a radiator (T - type). This is used to close off coolant going to the heater in the summer. It needs to be opened
I did see this brass T valve. Is it open when screwed in or open when screwed out. I think it was screwed out. I did try screwing it in for a while and checked the temp, but it didn't seem to make much difference , but maybe it wasn't long enough, and maybe the machine needed to be worked a bit to warm up better.
I will look into this. Thank you
Open when screwed out , left loosey
If all the hoses are warm but the heater ones, then you probably have a clog
I think it was mostly screwed out.
The hoses didn't seem to warm up that good
If none of the hoses are getting warm then may need a thermostat. Since it was in a warm climate maybe it was removed, don't know. There isn't a switch, just a cable coming from the rotary dial which opens/closes the air door and the fan switch Thought of something else, there is a mesh filter under the seat where the heater coil. If its clogged up you won't get much air thru though
I did check the the filter, it was clogged but it is still blowing cold air, so maybe there is no thermostat?
Check the temp of the block after working it for a half hour, the block should be hot enough to not want to keep your hand on it for more than a few seconds, both hoses should be nearly as hot (the rubber will feel cooler to your hand so you might be able to hold them, but they should both feel hot). If the hoses aren't hot, take one off and see where the coolant runs and doesn't, not rocket science. If the heater core is blocked, figure out which way the coolant goes through it, and back flush with a garden hose. If it still won't flow water, then there's another valve in the line.
I am quoting Nige's comment from the thread I posted a link to. "There is no valve shown other than the control valve over the rear axle which is installed in the gap between the 2 hoses at the top left (ringed in red). I would check where the hoses come out of the engine block, shown as Area B, just to make sure that nobody has sneaked a shuftoff valve in there. If you find no valve then the next step would be to disconnect the feed and return hoses at the cylinder block and try to blow through one of them. It should blow coolant out of the other. If it doesn't then either your control valve that" Did you look for that valve over the rear axle ??
Don't know about a rear axle valve for the heater, but SIS shows that valve at the block I mentioned
I would be taking that valve off and see why turning it doesn't make any difference in temperature. Not the temp at the valve but farther away from it on/in the hoses.
Like Delmer says make sure the engine is actually getting hot, not just a little warm to the touch but after working hard for half an hour you should not want to keep a bare hand on the side of the block. This is one of those time a cheap IR temp gauge could pay for itself fast. Not sure if you guys have Harbor Freight up in BC but something like this: https://www.harborfreight.com/infrared-thermometer-93984.html I have to remember to pick one up for at home now that I don't have access to the one we had at the shop! If engine is getting hot but the heater hoses are just a little warm I would say as other have that something is restricting flow. Might just have to hook a garden hose to one of the heater hoses with the other end unhooked and go through the system one step at a time till you find the restriction, be it a valve not working or plugged core or kinked hose.
Hi, I do have an inferred thermometer, that is how I checked the hoses and the block. After idling for 45 minutes on half idle, I think the block was at 65 to 73 degrees or so and so were the hoses. That seems too cool, but maybe it needs to be worked to heat up. So tomorrow I'll work it for a while and then check the temperatures on the block and the hoses. I did look at the valve over the rear axle, it has a cable going to it and is a plastic type valve. I was by myself so I had no one to move the control inside for me but I moved it myself and went back and looked and it seemed to be moving as it should, but then my flash light went dead.
What is SIS? Are you referring to the brass "T" valve? I can't make out the diagram very good. Is that #4 and is this the shut of valve for the heater core?
I didn't see a valve in area B
Can these machines even run properly with out a thermostat?
NO, they should have a thermostat in any climate. I can't guess what temp it should be after idleing, because I don't know the outside temp, and any number of factors about the engine. Work it for half an hour, the block should be 160 or higher, and it should stay 160 after idling for 5-10 minutes. The block and hoses at 73 tells nothing about whether the heater is working, and not much about a thermostat working either. Sis is the online Cat parts lookup etc. There's a thread 'tips and tricks for SIS" or something like that. #4 is a T valve that must be open for the heater to work, but check the temp after working first.
Did you read Nige's post in that thread closely ? He said the valve is located in the gap in the hoses. It is in the red circle by 2a and1
I actually had to check to see what SIS stood for! "Service Information System" This is an online service from Cat that depending on what level of access you have can be anything from say an online parts book up to access of all those secret service bulletins the dealer does not want to have you know about. Might be worth it to talk to you dealer and see what they can offer you. I have no idea of any costs as I was given access where I worked and I think I have a middle of the road account as I can see a good amount of stuff but there are a few others on this site that have much better access than I do. I'm not about to hassle the local dealer as I retired close to three years back and I'm still working off the companies account. Make waves and they might cut me off!
Ok, thanks for looking into that. I miss having manuals
I didn't have a chance to run the machine today. I do recall the brass "T" valve beside the injected pump was not screwed all the way out, but almost. Also in the cab where the heater core is enclosed there is a trap door facing the rear of the machine. On opening it you can see tubes coming from the heater core. You can put your hand in there and feel them for temperature. They were warmish but not hot, although the machine had not been worked. I did not see any valves in there.
once the engine is hot to the touch, feel the heater core, that will tell you if the coolant is circulating or not, go from there. If the engine never hits 160 working in cold temps, you need a thermostat. If the engine gets hot, but the heater core doesn't, then find and open the valves, SIS HAS SPOKEN, either you have those valves, or they were removed, or the diagram is wrong, which do you think is most likely.
Makes sense. Have you changed the thermostats on these? Should be straight forward. Not sure what temp thermostat is required for central BC. I would imagine there is one in it, but maybe a cooler one for the coast. Or the one in it is stuck open. I wonder what the torque values are for the housing bolts? The diagram looks right and there is one valve, but it was pretty much fully open, but it did open one full turn more.
Not sure if you had posted a S/N, looked fast through thread but did not see it. But here is an example of at least one 416C thermostat arraignment: NOTE: There are no optional regulators shown, would be very unusual to me to see different temp ranges these days. I put X's in the form for the seals you would need to replace the regulator. ALSO NOTE: That 152-8002 regulator part number does change to a 220-2748 part number
Hi Kshansen, The serial number is 1WR03918. Does that look correct? Thanks
Yes, one temp, 160 was the minimum in years past, more likely 185 these days. Looks like a standard thermostat, that will help, but work it first to know if yours is working or not. Then go after the heater.
I had a chance to run the machine today, I was plowing snow, not working it too hard. After running it for about an hour, I checked the temperature at the block using an inferred thermometer. The hottest was 99 degrees Fahrenheit. So it seems I need to replace the water temperature regulator (thermostat). Any idea what to torque the bolts at? I hope its and easy fix. I've seen other post about these having leak issues in this area. I did feel the tubes near the heater core and they are fairly warm as they are exposed to fresh air under the machine. Also the brass T valve was not completely open so I opened it and the heater blew slightly warm air. It can't be good for a diesel to run cool like that?
If you order your regulator from Cat ask to include all the seals and gaskets you need and to print a parts page and the r&r page from the service manual and put them in your parts sack. Bob
I meant to write, the tubes near the heater core were barely warm. Spell check is crap
Barely warm is just under 100 degrees in my book. Was the engine block just warm to the touch also? Get the thermostat in there, you'll have 170 water going through the heater, and plenty of heat. Or other problems that are easier to find. No it's not good to run that cool.
Yea, if you get engine temp up to around 180ºF you will be running that machine in shirt sleeves! Doug, sorry I did not get back on the part numbers for your S/N. I looked again and see there appears to be some changes. Looks like one seal number has changed and an additional ring used. I'd double check with dealer to see if they have any information relating to an "update".
If you housing happens to be a composite like mine, just snug the bolts good. If the housing isn't leaking I wouldn't remove it, just the thermostat next as pictured above. Don't know the torque spec.
Did some more looking at this engine and seems there are two different versions of it. See attached article:
My or may not help but here is where I removed the whole housing to replace the O ring seal. I did not touch the thermostat area HeavyEquipmentForums
I have new problem today. A broken hydraulic hose on the front bucket tilt control. It's an IT machine. The break is very close to the coupler. Maybe it can be repaired. Is it better to go to a shop and get this hose made up, or will they not have the cat specific couplers and bends. I haven't had a hose made up in years. Or would it be better to order the piece from Cat?
Have hose made or buy from CAT It depends on who has the best price. Some of the fittings are unique but most are not. Many times CAT has been cheaper then having one made, just depends on availability and how much folks charge. Last couple I had made up at NAPA cost more then if bought new from CAT. Ask the local dealer what they would cost and then take the hose to a local shop and ask them.
The hose is $150.00 from cat. I didn't price it out to get it made up at Napa. The water temperature regulator is $50.00, plus the 3 seals, I'll need a pail of hydraulic oil. They said the total will be $350.00 not including tax.
Never had much luck with local NAPA their prices aren't competitive except on cheap oil I won't use. Cat parts have a great warranty and they usually have them. I guess with equipment you have two choices, make payments or buy parts. Good luck Bob
I did order it from Cat, they didn't seem to have a an updated R&R from a manual.
Didn't get any info from them on torque values.
Finally was able to work on the 416c. I changed the hydraulic hose. It came from Cat. It went together ok except the last owners wired some electrical stuff that ran along the hose. So just had to be careful routing them together so they wouldn't bind or chafe against anything. It is an IT and has a tool carrier. Any idea on what the wires are for? I'm guessing some kind of attachment that requires electrical. The cat dealer could see some of the history form the last owner, it seems some stuff was modified to fit case. I'm thinking maybe a case snow plow? Not sure. Also I was able to change the thermostat. It was pretty straight forward aside from trying to keep one of the rubber gaskets in the groove. I now have heat, and the engine is heating to about 160 to 170. Thank you all for your help and suggestions. You've been very helpful!!
No clue, guess following the wires didn't work
Are there any extra switches or buttons in the operators cabin? Or maybe a hole some place where one may have been? Glad to hear you have heat now, did you see anything obvious wrong with old thermostat? Stuck open or a bad oring or seal? Thanks for letting us know you did manage to get it working. Way too often people will go on a site, not just this one, and ask for advice and after several people offer helpful advice you never hear back if any of it worked.
There are no missing buttons. As far as the thermostat, it looked ok, maybe a little out of line in how it opens and closes. There was a damaged "O" ring, 1/4 to a 1/3 was missing. The way it is designed, it looked like it would fail in that spot. Maybe a flaw from factory or design flaw. i'll have to keep an eye on it. In addition, I unhooked the hose off off the brass valve, pinched it off with flat vice grips so I wouldn't lose coolant. Then drained the coolant out of the brass valve into some clean containers so I wouldn't lose all my coolant while changing the thermostat, and also so I could reuse the coolant.
If it's a tool carrier, it might be electrics for an angle broom. We have 2 loaders like that. They might have taken the switch gear when they sold the machine.
It is a tool carrier, and you may be right about the broom. It was city owned machine. There is a metal box where the wires go but I didn't take the cover of to see what it looks like inside.
I have two wires going to a box on the boom and it has a roller switch inside. It is the self leveling switch. Mine was disconnected and I reconnected and installed a new switch, but it still will not self level. Don't know if that is what your talking about
Look over the box and see if there might be a Cat part number stamped in the cover or anything else connected to it. Or see if there might be a tag of some kind on the harness. Might be possible to trace out what it is by some minor part number. Or if you have time to open the box and see if there are any numbers on parts inside there!
Mine has the self levelling switch too. I don't think it works, maybe a wiring issue. Is there a switch inside the cab that controls or turns the self levelling on or off? The box is something else I think. I may post a photo if I can figure out how to do it and remember to take a pic.
There isn't a switch for self leveling (to my understanding). You should move the control handle from dump to lift and it should pop out when level.
Hi my heater cable on my cat 416c backhoe is stuck. Only blows cold air and won’t blow hot air. How do I get to work?
Five year old thread warning! Justin, if you can see both ends of the cable, disconnect it at the heater end and pull back and forth until it loosens up. IF that fails, remove the cable and wiggle it the whole length to free it up, then pull back and forth, work some oil from one end. Then make sure the heater part is loose, then put the two back together. That's how I go about it.
Yep 5yrs The 416C has a valve the sends hot water to heater core, is below and behind the dipstick. Most turn close it during warm weather to keep the heat out of the cab