All, looking for some input. bought a 4500 last year and it runs off an on. Found that the fuel tank was full of crud, so had it boiled out. got it all back together and replaced filter etc, bled filter and IP. Shot of ether (always needs that) and fired up. Ran 30-45 min on hot day then began to act like it was "loading up" (gas carberator term) and shut down. Couldn't get it to refire so had to tow it over to the barn and it sat there from last summer until now. I noticed a pinhole leak (from boiling out the tank). So all the fuel ran out of it...but I have now repaired the tank. I charged the battery yesterday, filled it back up with fuel, bled the filter and IP, but it still won't start. I was reading through old forums and a lot of suggestions on bleeding all the way to the injectors. I am going to try that tonight and see what happens. Any other thoughts on why this $%^@( machine is sooo tempermental? my next test would be compression, then possibly pulling the IP for testing/service. I had all the injectors cleaned, pop tested and repaired last year. I hope it doesnt have any cracked head or similar problem that is only occuring when hot, but the problem in starting seems to nullify that....
slow crank no start? crank at normal speed? no crank at all? sounds like u got 'er hot and locked up, maybe scored a cyl wall or something. first thing u need to do is a compression test, it may be time for a new tractor Pj
She turns over regular speed but won't fire a lick. Ether and she acts like it might catch but doesn't. That is why I am going to crack the lines at the injectors and verify fuel. Fuel pours from the IP bleeder and no air, so perhaps the injector lines are air locked. When turning over the engine doesn't make any abnormal noise like metal where it isn't supposed to be. I am wondering if the IP is having some type of failure when it gets hot?... I am having a heck of a time finding anyone with the proper compression test adapter for this tractor. I really don't want to pay several hundred $ for purchasing a one time tester. And my trailer is small and hauling this thing is an adventure on the edge (16ft trailer)....Any ideas on where to rent one?
Is this an old international ?
no, a late 70's Ford 4500, 3 cylinder diesel.
oh, sorry i thought it was a gas motor, i didnt know what the heck a 4500 was i guess..... crack a couple inj lines and see if any fuel comes out, ther ewont be much but jsut a little, if you have no fuel you can run the motor on ether if you are familiar with how to run one on ether, otherwise i suppose you could use WD-40, and then see if she picks up fuel at the loose injector line, if it hits and takes off tighten the line and ur good to go. hope it helped Pj
np, my bad when I compared the symptom to "loading up"...that is the only thing I could liken it to... Will be working on cracking the injectors shortly...will let you know how it goes...
ok, cracked the injectors and #2 and #3 cylinders were squirting fuel readily. #1 not a drop, loosened the nut some more and it finally just barely dripped and never got any more than that. I took the line clear loose and turned and turned it and still not any appreciable fuel. The other two were squirting like crazy. I am out of starter fluid and am going to have to run get some more. after I tightened them back up it was definately closer to starting but just couldn't muster. I only had enough ether for a couple of tries and it nearly started but not quite. My question now is with no fuel appearently getting delivered to #1 should I attempt to start? I don't want a dry (no fuel) cylinder to cause an issue. Any suggestions on why it is not delivering to #1? Should I pull the line from the IP and see if fuel is pumping out of that port? I assume this #1 cylinder fuel issue may be part of my starting problem???
Don't rule out one or more failed fuel injectors.If it were mine I would remove all of them and see that they are spraying fuel. Just because they were rebuilt does not mean one or more of them have not failed. Last April I purchased what I thought were new fuel injectors(4 of them)from an online dealer that sold A&I Products. They were $55.00 each ,almost half the cost of new ones($104.00). When I opened the shipping carton that came directly from A&I, I found that they sent rebuilt used injectors. Nowhere on their website did they indicate that they were not new. It was pretty obvious the injectors were used because the nuts were abused from being forced when being turned.The Case part number was engraved on them with a vibratory engraver in awfully crude freehand way. I installed them and the engine ran, but it just didn't sound right. After about 20 hours run time on them #1 cylinder went completely dead. First thing in the morning and I had a six wheeler bringing 30 loads of fill dirt and no way to cancel him from coming.It couldn't happen at worst time ! Later I ended up going to Midwest Fuel Injection and purchased a new Stanadyne injector. Problem solved ! No more rebuilt injectors for me! You can make a compression tester by dismantling and altering a fuel injector. Alter it so you can hook a standard automotive compression tester to it. It is really fairly easy to do.
I would guess you have a scored cyl in your injector pump or maybe a valve or something, i would pull the pump and send it off, at the same time i would pull the injectors out and send them to the same place, they can run a pop off test and check them out for you. if you cant find a place to send your pump to get rebuilt let me know because there are a few places in the K.C. Mo area that i can hook you up with . Pj
I thought this had a single piston rotary head pump - not plungers for each cyl.
PJ, thanks for the info. I will try to start it in a little while. It is 102 degrees here right now so I am going to wait until evening when it drops below 100. I had the injectors tested and rebuilt at a local shop. They are very well known and reliable. I guess I will pull the pump and take it to them. I may just have them double check the injectors while they are at it even though they just did them. Oh, and this is only a 3 cylinder engine so I am still wondering if that is really affecting the starting...only getting fuel to 2 out of 3 cyclinders....
I jsut took for granid it was a inline pump ?.....dosent matter tho. it still has to have something generate the PSI for each cyl since it's not a common rail engine. 3cyl desiel engines are a little more tempromental, i guess i dont even know what the hell a 4500 is?....., is it turbo'd ? if so did the turbo take a **** on you? BTW:GA4500......you have sureley cehcked to make sure you dont have an intake restriction havent you? Pj
I would try swapping injectors from one cyl. to next - then see if the fuel to 31 improves - you would not have to install in injectors in motor , but just attach to lines and observe patterns as each pops off. BE CAREFUL OF THEM THE FUEL COULD INJECT UNDER YOUR SKIN If it is a rotary head pump ,it is possible for a injector to stick open and not create enough pressure to trip for another cyl.. thus you might have two cyl. not working
it is a mid 1970's ford 4500, 3 cyl diesel, no turbo. wouldn't switching the lines deliver fuel off time and be ineffective? I do believe it is a rotary style injector pump, so why the one line is not squirting fuel has got to be a pump problem of some kind it seems to me... any other thoughts? BTW, thanks for all the suggestions guys...
Pj.
Never mind....I see JTL already started a thread about that :tong Pj
If injectors are not in the motor , what would you care about timing What i suggested is to pull inj. swap to different line , not installing the inj. - turn motor over observe the spray pattern of inj. by doing this you get an idea if they are working properly - BE careful of the fuel spray. If the inj. is stuck open the pump may not build enough pressure to trip to next cyl. - nothing wrong with pump- bad inj.
ok, gotcha...I misunderstood. Well I gave her a couple of heave shot of ether in the intake manifold and she choked to life. When if first started hitting it sounded like that front cylinder was hammering (I would guess due to no fire/fuel). When it began running it was struggling and the exhaust was a little blueish (like a flooded gas engine). Then it smoothed out and it started to get that familiar black diesel smoke look, then the black smoke became less (normal looking). I was able to drive it around and it seems to now be running good. Will see what happens when I try to fire it up again tomorrow evening after work. I am still not conviced the pump is quite right (per pj) but we will see how it does...
I still have a 4500 and a 3400 that I have run since the late 70's. What you have described is the normal for one of these that has been run out of fuel. The Ford service manuals may say to bleed the filter and injector pump and it will start but they are damn liars. You have to bleed the lines at the injectors until all the air is out. Frequently one line won't produce any fuel until the others are bled. It doesn't seem to hurt anything for it to run with no fuel to one cylinder; don't know why it would. These things usually won't even sputter on ether until the lines are bled; don't anybody tell me this defies logic, I know it does, but it's true. Your hard starting and poor running may be a small air leak in fuel line. They can be really hard to find. It can also be poor compression; these engines have a habit of developing leaking valve seats; they'll run okay but require a taste of ether to start. For a compression test adapter get an old injector, hollow it out and braze on a fitting. A gasoline compression tester won't work as these take several hundred pounds to start. If it is an injector pump problem I know a man in NC who works on nothing but ford tractors who is very good and reasonable. I don't know Billy Brewerton but the name is very familiar. Sorry I didn't see this thread before.
Lines full of compressible reboundy air = same result
Your diagnosis appears to be spot on. It is behaving exactly as you say. The fuel line leak you reference...is that the hoses between the filter and the pump? There are 2 of these and they are a hard flexible plastic. They appear to be very old and don't have any kind of clamps. I have the single fuel filter model, and there are 2 of these lines running out of the filter into the pump. One to the back the other to the side. I used to work in the late 80's for CSX as a radio maintainer. My territory went down to andrews from Dillon. I also had Florence to Lane, I was based in Florence...
An air leak can be anywhere but hidden ones are usually at the filter or between it and the pump. It helps that these are gravity fuel systems so if the leak has any size at all it will leak when tractor is just sitting. Dry everything off carefully and then feel the next day for any moisture. On both of my Fords the old hard plastic lines are long gone. The fuel line fittings are inverted flare (like brake lines) so if you have to replace them you can get fittings to connect that to hose or just get a short steel brake line, cut it in half, screw one end in each fitting, and connect them with rubber fuel line hose.
Thanks Mitch! Another question...my manifold is fitted with the glow plug. There is a small metal reserviour on the firewall. The overflow lines off the injectors feed up to this device then one line goes to the glow plug and the other back into the tank. The way I understand it this provides a small amount of fuel sitting there than can be heated throught the glow plug to help with starting. The steel line has been removed and there is not an electrical wire/switch. Is it worth the effort to hook all this up? I wondered if it would eliminate the need for the ether if I had this hooked up and working? Thanks for all your help. Steve
I am really not familiar with this as neither of mine have any kind of cold start system. I would think it would only help in cold weather though it may vaporise the diesel enough to help in warm. If I can remember when I get back to the shop I'll look and see if I have any info on this.
There is nothing in the ag or industrial service manuals on this system; but i did find it in the parts manual. Once I saw it I remembered seeing one once. I scanned the parts book pages but I just tried to post the pages I scanned for the 4500 steering thread and:Banghead :bash :bash :bash :Banghead:beatsme This thing stores diesel and gravity feeds some to the intake heater which either burns a tiny bit in the intake or sprays a little bit of hot diesel vapor into the intake. Most cold start systems heat the intake air and if that's what this one does I can't see it helping you in the summer. If it vaporizes diesel maybe it would help, but I doubt it:beatsme. If you find out let me know; or maybe ATCO or somebody will chime in. I'm going to ask a couple of people cause now I gotta find out how it works.:Banghead
Mitch, I have the entire set of ford parts and service manuals for this TLB. The person I bought it from had them all. I have all the diagrams and layouts for the system. I need to go back and look to see if it has a description of the system operation. If it does I will post it here. I have about 8 real thick manuals so it may take a while. steve
Steve, I bought one of those $8 dollar CD's which claimed to cover the 2000 up to the 5000 Fords including the 4500. My mistake. The wiring diagram is completely illegible. If you have a good copy of the electrical wiring diagram for a 68 Ford 4500 TLB could you send it to me. My email is [email protected] . Another thing about hard starting I learned from a guy who collects old Fords is that the timing of your IP is critical to easy starting assuming the pump isn't conked out. Mine starts OK now so I haven't had to mess with it but my old Massey 1100 with the 354 Perkins started hard until I played with the timing. I just moved it a few degrees. It starts on the first spin now. Could just be luck but you might try that. You have to loosen up all your injector line nuts and then rotate your IP body a few degrees one way or the other depending on your guess as to rotation etc. John
Good suggestion OHH..There is a "pump rotation arrow" on the name plate of the pump and timing marks on the block and a timing line on the pump,[usually set at[0*] Loosen the 3 hold down nuts and rotate the pump 2* IN THE OPPOSITE direction of rotation.. The switch your reffering to is called a "thermo-start". housing pressure fuel was routed to, what amounts to> "a car cigarett lighter" when activated [key switch]. you can run a hot wire to a toggle if you want to..They have a "slight" tendancey to stick open and dump raw fuel into the intake, thats why most are disconnected. Hope this helps. .