I'm replacing the seal on the right hand side of the differential. I have removed the phillips head bolt and am trying to get the bearing carrier plate out. It isn't coming out very easy. I'm wondering if I have to take off the floor boards and remove the top cover as the differential will probably drop down and make it difficult to reinstall the carrier. The carrier plate has probably moved about .100 so far. Maybe it is rusted in. I can't tell. Any advice would be appreciated. Geoff
The plate has a o ring that seals to the housing and trans axle, it more than likely has some crud and rust holding it. Most of the time you drill a small hole in the seal and install two sheet metal screws and pry the seal out with out removing the backing plate, the small seal in the diff lock shaft also can be worked out taking your time. It is a pain in that area on the B machines. If you stop now you need to run a bead of blue glue around the backing plate since it will more than likely start to leak there also. Use some shipping tape around the brake splined before sliding the seal in place and pack the rear of the seal with grease or vas to keep the spring in place.
A trick that I have used for years is to block the brake pedal down on the opposite side, that will keep the shaft from dropping and you won't have to fight keeping the shaft up and centered as you work the plate into place. Good advice on the tape to protect the seal as you install the plate, I always wrapped a few extra turns at the seal area to raise the lip up over the shaft seal surface. As a dealer we had the special sleeves but I much prefer the tape and I have done probably hundreds, The diff lock seal must always be replaced as most times it is the real source of the leak. Mel
OK, thanks for the ideas. Mine is a 580B without differential lock. I have the bearing carrier out now and the top cover off. I checked the play on the shaft before I took it apart with a dial indicator and I have about .025 up and down, so I am going to remove some shims. I noticed that the shaft did drop about 1/8 of an inch when I removed the bearing carrier, so I think I will try the trick of locking the brake on the other side for reassembly. Thanks, Geoff
Geoff, I was going to ask you about the shaft end play and forgot in my previous post. Be aware that if the looseness is being caused by thrust washer failure behind the LH side gear ( a good possibility as that is the thrust side) the ring and pinion clearance has been disturbed and simply removing shims will not correct the ring to pinion backlash, IIRC .003--.009 thou is close, anywhere in that range would be acceptable but I like to keep them down to the minimum. As far as the shaft end play Case wants a couple thou end play but I always set them up to slight rolling torque and have had extremely good results. The proper way to set the spider clearance if the thrust washer has failed would be to put it on the bench with the unit sitting down on the side gear and thrust washers selected to give proper backlash, (they are selective spacer thicknesses for setup purposes) then flipping it and doing the same, then reinstalling it and shimming the shaft to proper R&P clearance in conjunction with the rolling torque. If you do not keep the backlash within spec you are practically assuring ring and pinion failure in the future. To do it right involves a magnetic dial indicator and lots of patience. Let us know how you make out. Mel
I think you are right about the thrust washers. I have the carrier plate back in without the seal to check things out and I can move the ring gear right to left against the pinion. There must be .060 or more clearance. It looks like the bull gears have to come out to get the diff. out. Can I just jack up the rear and slide the wheels out far enough to remove the bull gears without disturbing anything? Thanks
The best way is put the machine on blocks, take the rear tires off, uncover the rear and remove the cotters and nuts, the axles can now be moved out using a sledge on the inside of the axle flange. If you make a pair of plates to fit behind the seal you can pull the seals back into place by tightening the axle nuts, Just radius a couple plates one side to the radius of the axle at the seal area. The outer seals are dirt excluders and an inner spring loaded grease lip as the oil is contained in the rear by seals right behind the inner bearing. Once the axle moves freely just carefully slide them out far enough to remove the bulls then the sides will slide off easily. The ring gear and carrier should just pick up out but you have to get it just right, some seem to be more difficult than others. On a side note, I have never seen a B without diff lock but I suppose it's possible. OH, VERY IMPORTANT--------look at the inner lining contact area of the LH side carrier to make sure it's not cracked circularly at the dimension of the inner pilot. The carrier being cracked will let excess end play also as driving force can push that area out where cracking occours.
Well I've got the differential out. I found it has a .107 thrust washer on the left side and a .092 on the right side. The bearing carrier does not have any cracks in it. My ring gear is a little chewed up on the outer edge but I plan on using it. I assume the pinion gear was riding more to the outer edge of the ring gear with the excessive clearance. Before I took it apart I used a dial indicator to measure the end movement from right to left. When I moved the ring gear against the pinion, I had about .025 end play. I am assuming if I can add about .025 to the left side, that would be a good starting point and then shim the right side accordingly. What do you think? I've been ordering parts from Coleman Equipment and they just sell individual thrust washers. They are .089 .094 .099 .104 .109 .119 and they also have a .010. Thanks, Geoff
Thicness of the thrust washers sets the spider clearance as well, setting the cage assembly down on a bench on its side gear and selecting the proper washer to give the right spider to side gear clearance should be done as I stated in my other post. That is the reason for the selective spacer washers. The ring gear should be shimmed to minimum spec. but the reading will vary as the ring gear is rotated so set to minimum it may be looser some other spots but should stay in spec through the whole revolution. The thrust washers are not used to set the ring and pinion, that is the side carrier shims job, if you do it the other way the side gears will be loaded wrong and could sustain damage. as you would be increasing their running clearance by adding thickness there. Contrary to what the service manual will tell you I have always set the shaft up to a slight rolling torque rather than following their end play spec, I have never been bit by that method. You must work back and forth till you get the backlash and rolling torque right, then seal and o ring the side plates. If you have .025 on the ring gear side you would have to remove shims from the carrier on the gear side (LH) to move it to the pinion. It may be easier to get the rolling torque where you want it and then just change shims side to side to set backlash.
Well, I've got the differential back in. It has about .004 backlash on the ring and pinion and about .003 end play on the diff. shaft. I had to replace an outer axle bearing when I had it apart. I am wondering if there is any special method or torque for tightening the axle nuts on the bull gears. They were loose enough when I took it apart, that when I removed the cotter pins, I could just remove the nuts by hand. Should I just snug them up good and then back them off to the next cotter hole? I don't want to over tighten them. Thanks, Geoff
.004 is great and .003 is probably within spec although I run them with a slight preload myself. If you have .004 and the ring is settled toward the pinion that .003 then the ring will be shoved out the amount that you have in end play, if so your backlash will change to some degree although still in spec. IIRC the spec is .003-.009. Possibly you could check it with the shaft pushed toward the left hard to seat the LH bearing tightly. That is the reason I run some drag, so the R&P backlash is accurate. Some may say I'm a bit fussy but I have seen dozens of failures because of the washer deterioration and point loading the ends of the ring teeth till they chip out. The axle nuts can be snugged up tight with no end play and even very noticable drag, they are very slow speed shafts and heating is never an issue. The seals on the axles can be pulled back in place as the axle is tightened. Two 3/8" plates with 1/2 moons cut out the diameter of the axle shaft behind the flange held in while the axle is tightened in will perfectly install the seals. If you have not sealed it yet, just install a brake assembly and tighten the adjustment up, with a brake installed and locked on the shafts will stay in center and you will not have to try to center it by lifting on the shaft/seal to get it lined up. Sounds like you have a good handle on the job, just some hints that I've picked up along the way. That basic rear came out about 1956 in various size ag tractors, I once had to change a rear axle out in the middle of a corn field with the customers help.
I am not sure if you are done with this yet after a month. I done mine and it took alot of adjusting back and forth and on weekends it took awhile. My manual said to have the bearing preload on the carrier bearings to be 3-8 foot lbs. I then was able to move shims back and forth to bet my backlash at .005 to .009. Mine was worn enough that I set it around minimum and others teeth were at max.
What size phillips head did you use to remove the bearing carrier plate? All of my tolerances are within spec but I can't get the seal out so I am removing the plate.
Hi All: I have 580C and am replacing the side gear seals, and the brakes as they were covered with oil. So after reading through all of these comments and the service manual; am I correct in stating that every time the bearing carrier side seal needs replaced, a person has to drop the differential to set bearing preload, AND ring & pinion setting? (The side gear backlash is not changed). Side bearing Preload per manual is done with axle removed to set rolling torque. Rolling torque is set with no wheels on I assume. One can raise backhoe up and remove tires, but if they are filled with liquid…. No fun! If by chance one does not get it EXACTLY right the first time, and the seal starts leaking again SOON , you have to drop the differential again!??!? I am recovering from cancer and if that is the case, I don’t have energy for this and will have to sell. Too bad, good machine. Thanks, Richard