First, I will have to say this is a great forum. I have been a heavy equipment mechanic for about 26 years now and I find a lot of good information here for even the advanced mechanic. Now, I am looking for some help on an older 580B with a Rockford power shuttle that has me totally beating my head on the wall! :Banghead A friend of mine brought me this machine he purchased with a the forward and reverse clutches burned up. We split the machine in half and replaced all the bearings, seals, and anything that looked questionable from the torque convertor to the manual transmission. When assembling the clutch packs, all were bench tested with 150psi air pressure. I had to replace all the springs in the clutch packs. This took some research. I did find some that have the exact number of coils other than the diameter of the spring was a little heavier. They worked great and I did not have to cut them down. I think the price for both sides was around $50. If anyone is interested I could dig my receipt out and tell you where I got them. The trouble I am having is that both clutch packs want to engage at the same time. The pressures on the convertor, lube port, and clutch pressure port fall within spec. The case was bored and sleeved where the cast rings from the main shaft normally show wear. I removed the control valve assembly and dye penetrate checked for cracks. Nothing showed up. I tested the clutch packs through the top plate ports on the shuttle valve and both operated normally. I got to wondering if I missed something on the shuttle valve assembly so I removed the trans/differential. The cast rings were still in new shape, nothing broken. Wondering if the rolled ports inside of the shaft could be leaking by I replaced the main shaft. After reassembling the machine nothing changed. Since there are no individual clutch ports or no test ports down stream on the spools I replaced the control valve assembly. No change. I am at my wits end! I have rebuilt the twin disc in another machine and found it very straight forward. If anyone has and idea of what I may have missed your reply would be most welcome. The trouble with these older machines at the dealer is most of the older mechanics have retired. The new younger guys do not have much if any experience with these machines. I have tried talking to the service manager at our Case dealer and he has very little experience trouble shooting this model. The best he can say is bring it in.
1973 case 580b - power shuttle q sorry, i can't help with your problem, but i do have a question. is there a way to tell, without splitting the tractor, whether i have a rockford or twin disc shuttle? is one better ( reliability, parts availability, cost? ) than the other... and can one be swapped out for the other? perhaps we should also set up a thread for companies that sell replacement parts? as these machines get older, i'm guessing parts are just gonna disappear. having that info in one place would be helpful.
As I am not an expert on shuttle trans, but am an expert on automatic transmissions, I will ask this question: You said you were able to test each individual clutch through port in the shuttle valve. Were you able to verify that both packs release fully when the pressure is taken off(assuming you used air pressure to test them)? I ask this because a pack that is pressure locked will seem to be engaged. Is one pack opened to drain when the other is engaged, or do they have constant bleed orifices. If the former, check for restriction in the drainback circuit. If the latter, check for plugged or covered bleed orifices. I know this will probably not help, but sometimes can help kickstart the brain.
Manic, I bench tested the clutch packs by blowing through the individual ports on the main shaft and also after installing in the case through the ports on the case. There is lube pressure going through the clutches at all times but not enough pressure to actuate the pistons. This vents the clutches when they are not being applied. Both clutches will actuate in neutral. The lube pressure is not out of spec. I have no way of measuring pressure down stream of the spools. It would be interesting to see what static pressure is in the port not being applied.
d2r, Phil has a post some where in the forum with a picture so you can see the difference. Everyone has said the Rockford is easier to rebuild. I suspect because there is no need to use a press to rebuild the clutches. I found the twin disk was very difficult. It is much like the Funk transmissions found in Caterpillar forklifts and some other equipment. The only thing I didn't like about the twin disk is the center plate which separates the forward and reverse clutch is held in place by a roll pin. It caused me some grief before I figured out that is was broken. That is too long a story for this answer .
I forgot to answer one of your questions. Yes, the Rockford and the Twin Disc can be swapped.
Manic, I reread your reply. Yes, the clutches are fully released when their is no pressure being applied whether hydraulic or air. I have the cover off where I can view the clutches directly.
I'm not a 580B expert, but I'm curious, maybe just need clarification. If you have verified that the clutch packs test good when fitted in the machine, able to engage and release each clutch pack by using test pressure via a port, then seems to me the problem has to be in the shuttle control valve sending pressure to both packs at the same time when running. I don't know how, just seems like the problem has to be there.
Yes, I thought that could be the problem. I replaced the entire control valve with no change.
Ok, you're making my head spin in continuous rotation. :dizzy You've tested each clutch pack with air pressure on the bench and tested via ports after assembly on the machine, and have reported each test proper. Yet both are under pressure when operating. Furthermore, each are under pressure after replacing entire control valve??? Boggles the mind indeed! Not trying to add to the perplexion (ok, a word that this event has created), but rather hope this question helps spur the mind of others here, you say both clutch packs are under pressure, just when does this happen? Upon start up? Or, do you start up, then engage either fwd or rev and then experience pressure to both clutch packs? Just trying to help because I'm clueless.
d2r, I found your picture that Phil posted. It is on the thread 580ck shuttle/converter
If you are saying that both clutches are engaged in neutral, then I agree with willie59, it has to be in the valving. Even if something was wrong with the clutch packs, there shouldn't be enough pressure to apply them unless there is fluid bypassing a valve or gasket. It has to be upstream of the clutches.This may have been what burned up the clutch packs before you got to it. I guess look every place where high pressure passages are near low pressure passages, and look for a damaged gasket, slip ring, porosity in the case, or missing core plug or spool cap. That fluid has to get there somehow and you're looking for a fairly large diversion of fluid. Do you have a hydraulic diagram for this machine?
It takes a few seconds on start up to have the clutches apply. It is if the pressure from the lube oil is too great. This is not shown on the gauge testing the lube oil, but the test port is upstream of the spool. If i press on the declutch dumping the pressure both clutches are released and the process starts over. Shifting to forward or reverse makes no difference unless I press lightly dumping a small amount of pressure with the declutch. Testing above 1000rpms the results are amplified and the will result in smoking the clutches quickly. I had the cover off and only tried once when the smoke started rolling I backed off instantly. I rechecked all gasket numbers for the control valve. Although it seems that the CK was the one with different gaskets.
Yes, I have the original service manual. There are only two ports which go the shuttle valve. Lube oil (low pressure) is supplied to one or both of the clutch packs not being supplied by the clutch pressure (high pressure). I have used dye penetrate to check for cracks and have found none.
I'm still perplexed. No matter if it takes a few seconds or a few minutes for pressure to apply (in neutral) to both clutch packs. That's the part that baffles me, neutral.
That's what I am struggling with.:beatsme I really like puzzles and had good luck in past with projects that were passed on to me by other mechanics. I was hoping someone else had a similar experience because this one is a toughy.
I thought of the lube oil not being able to get out, but that would raise the pressure on the upstream guage, unless there was a check valve, or something acting as a check valve downstream of the guage. Can you stop the lube oil for a minute or two?
It does sound like a gradual build up, rather than a sudden application. Leakage somehow from one pack to the other? You replaced the shaft, but leakage on the outside of the shaft from one pack to the other?
Valve body fastener torque? Warped case? They may be applying through that declutch circuit. Now I'm really speculating, as I've never seen one of these. I hope you figure this out, and please let us all know what it is. I've got to hit the hay.
Oh, one more thing, if this has a cascade valving system, make sure that the relief valve for the lube pressure isn't blocked. That could cause a build up of pressure way above proper lube pressure. I though of this because I would think that a fully engaged clutch would take a lot of power to slip and burn. Now, just partially engaged, it would have just enough hold to smoke itself.
There are multiple ports on the main shaft for lube oil to reach the Torrington bearings. From there the oil returns to the case. the lube oil is supplied by the converter pressure regulator and the position of the flow spool (3.1"). I even have played with the position of the flow spool. If I adjust it far enough in until pressure is being dropped off from the clutch pressure it sort of works up to 1000rpms. Above that it still engages both sides.
I guess the only thing to do now is sleep on it. Maybe one of us will wake up with a brainstorm. If I think of anything, I'll post it, and if you solve it, let us know what it is. I'll look tomorrow and see if I have an applicable book, maybe that will give me an idea. Good luck, and I'll be glad to discuss it some more, just not at 1 am Mitch
Don't know if you ever solved this. Hopefully you did! I saw a crude exploded view of one of these trannys. Did some reading and most who have trouble with them have problems with the seals that separate the fluid paths in the shafts. There shouldn't be any way the shuttle valve could be bypassing fluid unless it's just sloppy worn out. Anyway it's a painful subject for you but I'd like to hear about it if you fix it. Good luck.
I thought the same thing Manic so we paid the BIG $$$ already and had the case bored and sleeved. We should be as close to new in that area as possible. I have a JD 450E needing my attention and a NAA tractor. I thought the change of scenery may help me think clearer about it in a few days.
been about 30 yr but been there done that. seem to remember unit going about 1 foot each direction and locking. parts and even old service manuals deceptive. suspect problem in area of spacer washer with internal splines assembled incorrectly between the internal and external snap rings on the clutch packs. seem to remember they both go on the same side and the temptation is to put one on top and one on bottom. done both type, yes they are totally interchangable. stay with the rockford.
Researching for possible answers to my own problems with 580B power shuttle and came across this. New to site and have no real experience with posting, etc but will give it a try anyway. Curious about your problem and looking at the detailed drawings included in my factory service manual, Section 162, How It Works, Torque Converter with Rockford Power Shuttle, Figures 4 and 5, the Clutch Piston can either travel in one direction for forward or the other for reverse, not both. It does not seem possible to bring pressure against both forward and reverse discs at the same time. How did this all turn out? My problem has to do with very little torque reaching the wheels when cold. I let the engine run a bit to warm up. I'm also engaging the shuttle in forward or reverse with the transmission in neutral to circulate oils and warm that up a bit as well. It helps but it's not the answer to the problem. Starting with light use it gets better with ten to fifteen minutes of use and within a half hour I get good engagement. At first I suspected the power shuttle clutches but if they were bad, I don't think they would become more effective with time time. My focus is now on the torque converter. Thinking fresh oil and filter might help things a bit I changed both but draining I only got about 12 quarts which is way short of the published 16 quart capacity. Same on refilling, at 12 quarts I was about 3/8" above the mark after running a bit and purging the air. Hard to believe but could the mark be wrong? I always keep the oil at (or above) the mark. Yes, it fluctuates depending upon how long since last run. I believe the torque converter is draining between uses. Start it up and run a little and the oil is where it belongs. Anyway, maybe it takes some time to work all the air out of the torque converter and so it is operating at reduced efficiency. Hope I'm not too out of place with my comments. No offence intended. I'm old but willing to (try to) learn. I've had this tractor for about 20 years and have gotten a lot of good work out of it. It's old too. I'd like to keep it going.
The shuttle shaft has a hollow tube inside with 3 steel seal rings which seperate forward from reverse. - this does not sound like your issue. As for the oil level there are 2 drain plugs , one under the shuttle, the other under the convertor. When filling from the dipstick plug under your feet. you will need to run it a bit and then top and recheck as oil fills the torque converter cavity. When the machine starts grab the steel lines that go to the control valve on the left side just below the fuel tank. Are they vibrating or wining. if so the suction screen in the case is restricted and will cause sluggish movement. Several ways to go at this but none easy. . You did not mention clutch pressures. this is important. They should not drop more than 10 psi when shifting from neutral to forward or reverse- can,t hardly remember psi with going to book but seems i shimmed mine to appx 210 psi and get good response. . On these older machines expect is to take about 30 seconds to a minute for pressure to come up at start up and then stabilize just due to wear and internal leakage- mine does and once it warms up it work fine. You mentioned filter- It is the one in front of the radiator. if plugged it will cause the releif in the charge pump under the fuel tank to dump. Finally as a quick check- be sure the clutch pedal is coming all the way up. occasionally they will hang- hook it with your toe and make sure it is all the way up- another story here. but again knowing what psi is doing is beneficial.
I am very grateful for your quick response. Yup, sure enough, there's the plug to drain the torque converter. I feel like an idiot for missing this but happy to learn. I'll consider the latest oil change a "rinse" and will do it again soon. The fluid that came out looked pretty bad, milky and when emptying the drain pan the thin film at the bottom seemed to have some what I'll call texture. Not grit but not smooth either. I still have the filter and am going to dissect it to see what sort of material it contained. What I will also do is check that intake screen if I can figure out where it is. Maybe you can tell me? As to clutch pressures, I don't have an absolute measure but do have the gauge on the dash which seems to function normally. When I shift into forward or reverse it drops from mid to the low edge of green. RPM's help recover some of what's lost. The pressure comes up right away when I start the engine. Yes, the filter is the one in front of the radiator. Side note - Pressures were in the green before and after filter/fluid change. And, yes, the clutch does come all the way up. Doing some more looking around on this site I caught mention of the possibility of air leakage on the suction side coming into the valve body due to worn plumbing. I'll also look into that tomorrow. Another quirk I'll mention to see if you or others might have similar experience. The transaxle is always way over full. I believe the seal between the torque converter housing leaks and when the torque converter bleeds down it leaks through and brings transaxel fluid levels up to the point where the oil in turn leaks past the brake shaft seals and so the brakes are ineffective. All my work is on flat ground so I can get by. I'd really like to redo the brakes but why bother if they're just going to get oil soaked again. I could be wrong on all of this and would appreciate thoughts from others like you. Thank you again for responding. (Should I have tried to figure out a new thread with my woes?)
Lee, You will want to read all of this:
Gold Mine!! Thank you pac11adp. I'll pursue suggestions made on that thread and post follow-up questions or comments there as I run into road blocks or discover things that may be of use to others. Fantastic site!! Very grateful for the responses. There's another thread I'd love to find, how to uncobble the mess someone made welding the pins on my swing tower. Welds broke breaking, more weld added, broke again, plates added, breaking off, pins loose. Half fast fix compounded by more dumb ideas. Dangerous. I'm sure mine is not the only one. Looks like a weak spot in the design. Otherwise the 580B is a solid design that's held up very well. And NO plastic. Lee
the piston with the orings can move on the shaft
Thanks, I finally figured that out with all the help from other posts on this site. The boom pins should never have been welded. Cleaning that up and doing it right is more than I am capable of doing with the equipment I have. I'm thinking that if I get everything positioned blocked so the alignment is true. Maybe a guy could can rent a line boring tool to install new pin/bushing assemblies. I think there's enough of these old 580's with loose booms there'd be a line waiting. But, in fairness, I have a lot more looking to do before making a decision on the final approach. If I'm missing a good thread dealing with this, please let me know. The good news is that I've completely solved the power shuttle torque stall problem by cleaning the screen on the pickup tube.
Lee D, good news on solving the shuttle issue. The screen seems to be a big problem and I am wondering about the springs in the shuttle clutches like xpack found. My 580CK has the model 33 hoe and when it went to the local Vocation school for pins and bushing work, the boom pin was shouldered so bad that it took almost the limit of the press to push it out. Shot like a cannon, with everyone watching from the other side of the facility. I'd have loved to been there to see that. New pin, bushings and a few other small items on the hoe and after almost 25 yrs, its still like new, where I can rock the hoe and move the whole machine. I'm dilgent with the grease gun and likely its previous users were not. Good luck on getting yours back to stock. There are lots of ways to repair properly, but for me it was out of my league, so had a my friend who was instructing at the shop take care of it for me.
Can't speak to the spring issue. I did not remove or disassemble the clutch packs. I meant to measure clearances as describe in the service manual to get an idea of wear but forgot to do it. If cleaning the screen didn't fix the problem I was not ready to try splitting the tractor and spending the money on new clutches. This tired old machine would have been retired. But, cleaning the filter did solve the drive problem. If in a rush and shifting into forward before coming to a complete stop the front wheels will leave the ground. The clutches engage smooth but firm, don't seem to slip at all. This B has got well over 6,000 hours, obviously rode hard and put away wet with minimal maintenance and sloppy repairs and still it's a good machine if used within its limits. The early 580's are strong and well built, probably why there are still so many around. Might be true for the later models as well but I can't speak to that either.
Im hoping you can help me. Im looking for power shuttle parts rsnuild kots for my case 580 b ck.
I'm not sure that a rebuild 'kit' as such is available, but parts are available from a number of dealers who specialize in both Case/CNH parts and aftermarket. For all my parts needs on my old Case 580CK, I have found Dale Weiss at Tractorstuff to be both knowledgeable and fair on pricing. If you call him, he can advise on what parts you will need and usually has them in stock ready to ship. Give Dale a call.
Ok thanks. Ive been reading up on my 580b on here. Actually its just a hobby i guess but i bought it for 4 grand then had to replacethe motor. Aftervthat ivstarted rebuilding the hydraulic cylinders and replacing the hoses. I currentlh have 2 problems im dealing with . I put newbrakes on ans i get a poping sound on the right side going forward im not sure why and i can ram my bucket into a dirt pile and my hoe stopsbut the wheel isnt spinning and the engine isnt lugging down. So im hoping its not the cluch pack . If i called it right. I did a few test. Im getting about 170 psi pn mycluch pressure. Should be either 180 or 190. . Found it might be the pump release valve stuck open causing lose of pressure. Maybe spool valve. Broke spring in the shuttle pressure regulator. Lol. Yes iknow its name is something else. But ive started cleaning the old gal up. The backhoe boom had been tottally redone. I got some pics ill try and post. Im learning alot . The boly holes holding the tranny to the engine donr show the cracks ive seen on some of these machines. Ive cleaned the screen on the pickup side of the shuttle pump. Ihavent drilled that hole yet so i can clean the strainer without pulling the plates under the fuel tank. I have thought pulled my shuttle pump without pulling the fuek tank as they say u gotta do on here.
Im gonna take a shot in the dark. I havent had my 580 b long but ive playedwith her.if both forward and reverse are engaging at the aame time the common item might be right below ur fuel tank where the forward and reverse selector is . Id say orings are bad and that hydraulic fluid is going to both cluthes at the same time.
if it's not the valve the problem at least in my case was the the pistons that engage the clutches had crap in them. there is tiny little ports with tiny valves they are a bitch to get apart and will require creativity to unclug. you will have to split the tractor and disassemble the shuttle to get to them.
The best way to tell which shuttle you have is remove the top cover on the torque tube where you check and fill with oil. The twin-disc has relief poppets in the piston housings and the Rockford does not
this may not be the right place to post this but I am looking for a diagram of a case 580b forklift control levers and what they do. I am new to the forum and the forklift. Thanks in advance!
How many levers do you have on your lift? Usually the first one closet to the steering wheel is for raise and lower the forks. The second or middle one is for tilt forward and backward. And the third closest to the right finder is for slide option, if installed, right to left or visa versa. If you get on line to www.partstore.casece.com you can look up all parts for your lift. You can also find the decal you need for your control patteren.
Thank you for the response, there are 3 others that I'm not sure what they are: While sitting on the seat, on the left side there is a handle that rotates back?, down to the left is a pedal that goes under the seat mount back to where the forward / reverse controls are and there is a rod with a handle that pushes down. I am trying to get an understanding of what these controls do so that I can figure out why the lift goes forward very slow in 1st gear only. It will not move in any other gear forward. Reverse works fine as far as I can tell.
If you can post a pic so I can look at it.
What does the bore where the sealing rings set in the main case look like, I have seen damage there that allowed oil to get to ports it was not supposed to. I have seen them sleeved and repaired , one thing that strikes me is I have had this happen years ago when first starting out, it is possible to install the snap rings and the splined washer in the wrong sequence and not get full release on the clutches if so this could account for the slippage and smoking clutches, the OEM service manual is not very clear on proper installation. On the Rockford unit lube pressure comes in back of the clutch pistons to collapse the pistons away from the clutch pack. The valving is pretty simple and straightforward and I do not believe the problem to be valving, I would check charge pressure and operating pressure with the shuttle in each position, good pressure in neutral and low in F or R would indicate a leak. I believe that the converter charge pressure is also lube pressure and MAY be able to be observed with the pedal depressed on the main pressure gage on the dash, IIRC it will be up above the bottom a quarter inch but you can install a gage in the small regulator block next to the main shuttle control valve, they have been know to stick but most often open rather than closed showing low or no charge pressure.
I have a Davis Road Runr Trencher with a Case 580B Diesel Tractor. Here is a picture of the tractor and the shifter lever. Do you know what the lever is in front of the gear shift? It attaches to the arm shown and the gears shown. I am looking for both of these pieces. My phone is 620-408-6451 if you would rather call.
No expert but if thd center sealing ring on the shaft us broke pressure can be applued to both sides at once
Connect air to spool control valve aft metal line on left side. With cover off and oil drained use control lever by steering wheel to see clutches work. If u fill it with oil u can see where air bubbles come from if mt u can hear air leakage . Just a thought