Hey, all, new guy here, This looks like a great forum and I searched for an answer to this but didn't find anything. I have an old Case 580CK backhoe with diesel engine that I just got a few months ago, and I think I might have messed it up tonight. The machine has always started up pretty easily, but one of the things I noticed when I ran it was that diesel fuel dripped (slowly) off the injector pump. I thought maybe the injector tubes might be getting loose on it, so I tried snugging one up, and after that, the leak got worse. Here's a picture of the pump with an arrow pointing to the bolt I removed and then replaced: http://s21.postimg.org/xgulvovna/injector_pump.jpg So then, I thought maybe there was some grit or debris underneath the bolt that held the injector tube to the pump, so I pulled out the bolt and pulled a clean rag between the tube and the pump where it at attaches. Tried to clean it out as best I could, then I put the bolt back in and tightened it, and started the engine. The leak seemed to stop at that point, but the engine seemed to have a miss that wasn't there just a few minutes before. So then I pulled out the bolt again and tried cleaning again –*and now the engine won't start at all. Now I'm thinking maybe I got some dirt or grit into the pump or the injector tube when I replaced the bolt, and possibly clogged the injector or really messed something up. Can anyone give me any advice on what I might have done, and how to fix it? Thank you for any suggestions. Jeff
Update: I did some research online, and now I'm thinking that at a minimum I might have gotten air into the diesel injection system and locked it up so it's not getting fuel. So now I'm trying to figure out how to get any air out of the injection system. Here's another picture of the pump with arrows pointing to the bolt I removed and replaced, and to a small hex head fitting that I'm thinking might be a bleeder valve. Here's the picture: http://s9.postimg.org/blmvigukv/injector_pump_bleeder.jpg Can anyone tell me whether that fitting with the arrow pointing to it might be a bleeder valve to get air out of the injector pump? Thanks again.
Don't think that's a bleeder, since it has a lock nut and allen set screw I would bet it's an adjustment. Secondly, I seriously doubt you got air into the injector pump by removing one injector line bolt. However my best guess sadly is that you either introduced some contamination into the hole where the bolt came out, or over tightened the bolt, thereby causing the rotor to seize in the head. Loosen a couple injector lines at the injectors and turn the engine over, make sure the shutoff is not pulled, see if you get any spray out of the loose connectors. Don't get hands or face near these, high pressure diesel can be injected into you. If in doubt use piece of cardboard or stiff paper to check for fuel spray. If you don't see anything then look for the little rectangular plate on the side of the injection pump with flathead screws holding it on, remove the top one, loosen the bottom, pivot the plate down so you can see the shaft and timing mark inside the port. Turn the engine a bit and see if you can see the rotor with the other timing mark turning. If it's turning I'm wrong about the head being seized, if it's not turning the shaft has snapped probably to save the gear. Time for pump rebuild. Let us know what you find.
Lantraxco, Thank you for your fast and detailed reply. I really appreciate your help. I'll get someone to help me tomorrow so I can watch the pump while he turns over the motor and reply back. Now I'm getting worried. Just ordered a reprint of the service manual on ebay ... is it expensive and/or hard to find parts to rebuild an old injection pump like that? Thanks again, I feel like such an idiot, I should have just left well enough alone. Jeff
Well, now I REALLY feel like an idiot. Just went out and checked and saw that I still had the cutoff pulled (it's a cable that goes behind the injection pump). I guess I never pushed it back in the last time I cut it off. It started right up again, except this time, fuel was really spraying out from the bolt I loosened and then replaced (instead of dripping once every 10 seconds or so) and the engine has a noticable miss and isn't idling as fast as it normally does. I guess that one cylinder isn't getting enough fuel (or none). Can anyone advise me on how to stop the leak from that injector line bolt? Put a new washer underneath the bolt, maybe? (Now I hesitate to tighten it too much for fear of seizing the rotor). Thank you.
When you changed the banjo bolt did you also replace the copper washers on the top and bottom side of the line? Some times the bottom washer falls out and you could have missed that.
The two copper washers on the bolt should be changed if that fitting is leaking. I just had my Roosa Master on my 188D rebuilt and we replaced all those washers as a routine. The manual shows how to bleed the system to get air out of the filters and to the injection pump. These will run up without bleeding each injector. Mine ran but was told the pump was on its last legs after only 45+ years. Clean around fuel systems is good to prevent dirt getting into the system. A rebuild cost over $800, so it pays to look after it and keep the fuel clean.
I would suggest you check with one of our members here, thepumpguysc, for information on parts and a rebuild of the pump. I took mine to the local shop and they had all the bits and did it right.
that IS NOT a bleed screw.. its called a "torque screw".. and it has an oring under it.. the nut is cupped to accept the oring.. and the adjustment is important.. just measure it.. from the nut to the top of the screw adjustment.. ITS ALL GOOD.. you didn't mess up.. just have some air in the system.. RELAX....
I was talking about the 2nd pic.. the 1st is a banjo bolt.. and it takes 2 steel/teflon washers.. 1 on top and 1 on bottom.. they are crush washers.. so tightening them is worthless.. once they go to leaking there done.. they need to be replaced.
you can get the Teflon/steel washers from ANY fuel shop.. if they are kool, they'll just give then to you.. they're just a few cent apiece.. DO NOT try to use anything else other than whats called for..!!!! NO copper gaskets, NO Teflon tape, NO orings.. you'll mess up BAD.. like LAN said.. you'll seize the pump and that's BIG $$$.. I've got about a ZILLION of them but you'll spend 5.00 in shipping and wait 5 days to get 1.00 worth of parts.. Lol
Before you take loose another connection anywhere on that pump...empty a couple of cans of brake cleaner on that grungy thing.
NO SH*T.. LOL
Wow, you guys are great ... THANK YOU VERY MUCH! I guess one reason it might have been leaking is that there was just one washer (at least I only saw one), between the banjo bolt and the fitting. There was no washer under the fitting (or not that I saw). Question: Just in case I got some dirt into the pump and/or the injector fitting, should I try to somehow backflush the fuel injection line between the cylinder and the pump, by taking off the line and blowing it out (assuming that's possible), so that if any dirt got into the line, I'll get it out before it gets to the injector and clogs it? (I only ran the engine for maybe 15-30 seconds, so I'm assuming that if I got any dirt into the pump or line, it's probably still in the pump or in the line.) I don't want to clog that injector...they are expensive, aren't they? Also, should I take out the banjo bolt and crank over the engine with the starter to try to flush out any dirt that might have gotten into the pump? Again, thank you all very much for your replies. You guys really know how to make a new guy (and an idiot, at that) feel welcome. Jeff P.S. I'll be sure to hose everything down with brake cleaner before I touch anything else...I should have known better!
I wouldn't pull the bolt and crank the engine more chance of contamination.Clean the pump and replace the washers.
Once you replace the seal washers at the banjo fitting, and yes, there should be two per fitting, the trick to injection lines is to seat it properly, this applies to banjo fittings as well as the nut fittings at the injectors. As you're locking down the fastener you need to gently tap on the injection line with a small ball peen hammer. The objective is not to beat on the line, rather just to make a little vibration and movement of the line. As you're tapping on the line slowly tighten the fastener. This greatly helps correcting misalignment of fittings as they're being seated and torqued down.
Thank you, Willie59 and Billrog. I will do that. That makes sense. Would everyone agree I probably shouldn't try to flush the injection pump and injection line? Not sure how small the orifice is on the injector, but the more I think about it, the more it seems like I must have gotten at least a microscopic speck of dirt in there mucking around. (Didn't realize at the time that this was an injection line I was detaching from the pump...diesels are new to me, and I thought it might be a feed line from the tank.) Engine is a Case G188 from the mid-1960s, I believe. (Serial number from the tag on the machine 580CK9667248 doesn't seem to correspond to the Case serial number tables I've found online.) "Just enough knowledge to be dangerous" my Dad once said about something I did ... he would be shaking his head if he were around now... Thank you all very much for your help. :beerchug Jeff
Seriously Jeff.. you need to clean that machine.. DO NOT DO IT WHILE RUNNING THE ENGINE!!! A few of the guys on here are right smack dab in the middle of rebuilding theirs.. GREAT pics and write ups. They are using cheap oven cleaner and soaking them down and a pressure washer.. just be careful around rubber..
Cold water on a warm injection pump can cause it to seize ($$$) that's partly why thepumpguy said to not do it while running. Don't shut it off and immediately spray it down either, is what I've always heard. I'm surprised at the oven cleaner, that stuff eats right through aluminum, be real careful. With that much diesel soaking into it, it will come clean enough with a pressure washer, IMHO. I would never try to flush out the injection pump, nothing got back from the bolt you removed. If you want to play it safe, remove the injector line at the injector for that line and see if it will start, if it starts let it run for 10 seconds, shut it off and put it back together. If it doesn't start, crank it for 60 seconds, 10 seconds at a time, 2 minutes rest with a charger on it. That's what I'd do anyway.
Thanks, Thepumpguysc, and thanks for the explanation, Delmer. I've always been leery with pressure washers around engines for fear of driving dirt and water into places it shouldn't be, but I guess there's not too much to worry about on the injection pump...? Thanks again, I'll clean things up and try to get some washers and report back. Really appreciate the help. Jeff P.S. Thepumpguysc, is there a chain store (like Tractor Supply) or online source for those washers? I live in the middle of nowhere and am not sure where to look for them, and am not even sure what to look for in the Yellow Pages ... I guess try the Case dealer?
I'm one of those here that is in the middle of a major on my 68 Case 580CK with the 188D. I have used cheap oven cleaner to reduce the years of built up crud, but have kept it away from sensitive stuff. Its caustic and will take the shine off paint. Your injection pump and the engine on that side needs a serious cleaning before you remove or open up anything more. A wash with varsol or your choice of solvent, a scrub with a brush, rinse. repeat until clean. This will let you see what is there, reduce chances of any small amount of dirt into the system. These 188s are very robust and relatively easy to work on. The fuel system is the heart of any diesel and clean fuel to the pump is essential. At some point, you will want to have your pump rebuilt as they don't last forever. The pros on this site have and will offer their guidance. Its worth following and if you are not sure, ask. The rest of us have benefited for their input and as already mentioned, there are a bunch of us with 580s and 188D engines on here. Search the forum and do some reading, you will learn a lot. Good luck on your efforts/ Its worth it in the long run. Once I'm done with mine, I expect another 25 yrs trouble free with some maintenance.
Sine.................... Welcome to the site i just did a bunch to my ck this winter including cleaning and painting it and needless to say there was 40 years of grime on her to.....I pressure washed the crap out of it a fw times and didnt run into any problems with it just dont get so close with the nozzle to tear stuff up and as im sure others will say after you pressure wash it once do it again this crap is everywhere on these old machines.......... On top of the fuel filter housing is the bleeder screw it is a knurled head so you can loosen it by finger if you suspect you have air in the lines ect........ i have done it a couple times when mine ran low on fuel and when it starts back up it does miss some but it dont take long to clear out and run good...... You might want to change the fuel filters there are 2 of them after you get it cleaned up as well...... Here is a very good source for parts for these old girls His name is Dale and he ships right to your house he is out of Indiana website www.e-backhoeparts.com Phone # 765-378-3396...... If you can post some pics of your rig we enjoy seeing them .......good luck and let us know how it turns out.............
Thanks Juskatia and xpackdeals ... I just oven-cleaned and pressure-washed the engine ... it's ORANGE! Who knew??? Thanks for the advice and help (and the link and phone number!), it's good to know who else has these old machines, and I'm sure I'll be bugging you all!
It is suicide to lay a wrench to any part of the fuel system to open it up when the pump and area around it are that dirty, You may have contaminated an injector pulling a rag through that joint, lucky you didn't seize the head. If replacing the washer and getting the leak stopped doesn't cure the miss you may have to replace an injector.
Rick if that bolt only had 1 washer on it and you tightened it up and the engine still ran.. you dodged a 1200.00 bullet.. MEL.. please make another post!! you post # is creepin me out.. Lol
Thanks for your reply Melben. If I did introduce contamination into the line, I'm hoping it didn't reach the injector yet, since I only ran the motor at idle for maybe 15-30 seconds after mucking around with the banjo bolt and fitting. I've really cleaned the whole engine up with oven cleaner and a pressure washer. Can I remove the line between the fuel injector pump and the injector and blow it out with compressed air and brake cleaner, then rinse it out with diesel fuel and replace it – and possibly dodge a bullet on a new injector? I'm really thinking of doing this just for peace of mind, unless you guys tell me not to for some reason. I'll be kicking myself if I don't and it turns out the injector is clogged. Thanks for any advice on this...
If it makes ya feel better, take the suspect injection line loose at the injector that it's connected to. Cap the end of the injector with something, plastic cap, duct tape, something, then with the line loose start the engine and let the other three cylinders make the engine run while the loose injector line pisses fuel everywhere and flushes itself. Yeah, messy, but line cleared.
Thank you Willie59, that's just the kind of information I need. I appreciate your help. Just out of curiosity, if the injector is clogged on this old machine (1966 maybe), is that something that I can fix ... or something expensive I'll need to get someone else to fix ... or would the injector be trash? Thanks again. Jeff
Jeff; A defective injector is not something an untrained person can repair. There are rebuilt injectors available for your machine on the internet. I bought a set once and they were junk. Never again will I waste my time and money on rebuilt ones. Unfortunately be prepared to spend about $100.00 for each one.
Thanks, Tinkerer. At least they're not as expensive as Power Stroke injectors! You say the rebuilt ones are junk in your experience...are there new ones available anywhere?
Sine ........give Dale a call you will be glad you did not only does he sell parts but he has a wealth of knowledge on these old ones and is willing to share it with guys like us who can use the help....
Pumpguy, never noticed that, Lol
They are available by many vendors on the internet. Stanadyne is one of the biggest vendors besides Case Dealers (CNH). I found genuine Case new old stock (NOS) on ebay.
That's good to know. Thank you.
Yup.. stanadyne formally roosa master IS the source.. they MADE the injection system.. BUT>> there are several sources available..
I haven't figured out yet why the OP needs an injector ? I bought a set of injectors once for a 580C dealer price was just over $100 each and they told me Case would allow them to meet other prices so I got a price from a Diesel injection service for $54 each and the Case dealer met it.
A Case dealer that will price match --- amazing ! Could you post the name and /or contact information for SineWave ?
Tinkerer I would but unfortunately the dealer lost their Case industrial line which was only backhoes at the time and they weren't interested in to getting into the full line of Case industrial now they are only agricultural. I took it for granded all Case dealers could price match legitimate OME prices.
I just want to send a big shout-out for ThePumpGuySC who took the time and trouble to send me a whole set of 8 banjo bolt washers for my Roosa Master pump, and wouldn't even let me pay him for them. THANK YOU, THEPUMPGUYSC!!! I hope you all will send him your business when you need your pumps worked on ... I know I will!
Yea Pumpguy is a great guy he helped me in my time of need and the guy knows his s---.........
Just an update: I put on the banjo bolt washers that ThePumpGuySC gave me, and fired it up, and all is well again. I let it idle for 15 minutes and no miss or anything, so I guess I dodged a bullet with ruining the pump or getting dirt into it. Many thanks to everyone who replied and helped me. I really appreciate it.
I second that emotion .... PumpGuy did my I-pump job and all is well. Great Guy.
Sure nice to hear success stories I'm really happy I joined this site I'm able to learn something every day a lot of input from knowledgeable individuals.