I am sure I read this some where on HEF before and cannot find that thread. I have a 1971 Case 580CK with power shuttle transmission and 188 Diesel. It is the tranny style with a 4 speed shifter in front of the steering wheel that is set in 3rd and never used, and it has the forward/reverse lever on the left side of the steering wheel that engages and makes it go. On a really cold day without waiting long enough for the heater to warm the block, I toasted another starter motor (3rd in 2 years). These cheap aftermarket ones don't last nearly like the original case one did. While replacing this one I notice oil in the bellhousing covering 2/3 of the flywheel. The oil is about 2" below the hole the starter nose goes in. I do not ever remember that before and am now worried that I have an issue. Actually I really think that this unit is supposed to have a dry torque converter but am not sure. Should the bell housing have oil in it on a 580CK? If so how much? If not where did it come from?
The power shuttle model has a torque convertor and the bell housing will have hydraulic oil in it. The starter should have a gasket and seals to keep the oil out of the starter. The level is checked with the shuttle dipstick, as the front section is connected to the shuttle with passages for the oil to return to the shuttle pump.
Doug, Just curious, why is it always in 3rd?
I have found on my small (4 acre) fairly flat property that this machine does fine in 3rd. If I fully load the front bucket with dirt it struggles a little from a dead stop at the bottom of a small hill on my work road. It will climb it, just sluggish if I stop at the bottom. If I approach with a little momentum it does fine even with a full bucket of dirt. With a load of firewood or mulch 3rd gear has done everything I ever asked it to. As long as the bucket is not that loaded it starts and drives just fine without ever needing to change gears. Since most of what it does is 'light duty' for this size machine 3rd gear alone has always just worked. Just choose a direction to go with the forward/reverse shuttle shift and the right amount of throttle drives the 580ck just fine for my use. Not going to far or to fast anyway. I needed a wheel barrow so I bought a Front end loader. (Hence Doug Overkill)
Before my shuttle rebuild, 3rd was my travel gear and 1st my work gear. My place is steep and 1st is a bit more comfortable unless I'm going up the road. We'll see what its like once I get a few more things done and start it up for the first time.
Whatever works. I have a lot of different terrain and conditions so I've found the need to use 1, 2, and 3 as well as the hi/low. I only used 4th a couple times out on the paved road and it was scary even throttled down.
I still don't think I'm supposed to have oil in the bell housing. I did a bunch more searching trying to understand what I saw. I don't want to ruin another starter. But I probably did. I finally conceded that maybe this is ok and started the tractor. In very short time it was pouring oil out of the starter. Not just a little. Pouring out from seam in the starter. I don't have a lot of faith that the starter can handle that. I'm still confused where the oil is coming from. It looks like hydraulic fluid more than engine oil so I guess it's from the transmission. My poor memory says that the 580ck had a dry setup or at least I've never seen oil in the bell housing before. I looked at the old starters I've been collecting and none of them had seals where it mounts or anywhere else that I see. Anyone have any ideas? Oh yeah. Merry Christmas.
Shuttle and Torque Convertor are wet bellhousing with a starter that has seals, o rings or a gasket. My 580CK is this configuration and the starter is dry at the armature. I had I rebuilt and they confirmed that it would run 'wet'. I'm no where near the parts book, but look at the Case site to confirm or call Dale Weiss at Tractorstuff, he will be able to confirm which starter you need. A dry clutch could be a different starter without the seal. A quick look shows 2 different starters, one for power shuttle and one for dry clutch. Looking at the exploded views, I can't see the difference but I'm sure there is. Call Dale or email him on Tuesday.
Doug, Is this your rig? It's hard to tell cause the avatar pic is so small. I looked at this machine down in Mass. Probably not but looks similar.
Juska. Thanks for the info. It stills feels like I have more fluid in there than I should. It's about 2" below the starter hole. Is yours that high? I also did order a dry clutch only starter. Major suck. Grady. No that's not me. I'll try to post a pic.
Doug, I can't help with the level, as I'm away from the tractor and mine is still without fluids until I get closer the restart after the overhaul. The shuttle and the bellhousing are connected and the level would be the same. Check your shuttle level and it will be the same as the bellhousing. You may be able to have a reputable auto electric convert your starter by adding the seal and any other parts it doesn't have.
Doug, You said you ordered a "dry clutch only starter" so does it have a dry clutch? My CK has the dry clutch so I don't have any oil level in there - or torque converter. I think I've had the starter rebuilt twice in almost 40 years. I have a 580 C with a power shuttle and torque converter but it must be a different design because the torque converter itself is in a dry area like a standard automatic transmission. I'm not familiar with the specifics of the CK power shuttle and torque converter. I've seen people post links to online manuals but I'd recommend that you get your own because it's a necessity with rigs like these cause it's always something. You'll still need this forum but there is so much info you'll be glad you did. It's money well spent.
I do have a full set of paper manuals and parts lists as well as PDF versions. They are great for how to take things apart and replace parts but IMO not so good for diagnostics or understanding the concept of a system. No where in the manuals (that I found) do I see the info I seek. Great info on replacing a torque converter but not about how it works. I do now know I ordered a starter for a 'dry clutch only'. Maybe that is my only issue. Not convinced. I wish my pictures / memory was better. Until last week when I was installing this newest starter I would have said I to have a dry bell housing / torque converter on my power shuttle system. If there was oil in there I don't remember it. So far everyone else besides you and I say that the shuttle system is an oil filled bell housing. Still confused....
To help eliminate the confusion, read up on the fluid change for the shuttle and torque convertor. There are two plugs for this, one under the shuttle and in the bell housing. Between those there are passages since they use the TCH/Hytran Ultra oil. (17qts?) I'm pretty sure my manual has a description and diagrams of the torque convertor and shuttle operation. Next week, I'll be back at the tractor and will look for you. If its of value, I'll pot them up here.
Grady Here is my girl. Her name is BUTCH. She came named by the nice old farmer who owned her ~20 years before I got her. As you can see, she does all the hard lifting. Here she is with an almost full load of dry leaves.....
Doug, In addition to the parts and service manuals there is also an operator's manual that has a lot of practical information. I don't know if you have that one but if not I think yesterday's tractors does. - and stop abusing that machine with those heavy leaves! No wonder you're having problems! ; ) Looks like she's in good shape.
Doug, That's a good looking old girl. Mine is/was a spitting image of yours with an almost exact same Simms cab and similar gussets for repair. What I miss the most is the use of the loader while mine is in the shop for rebuild. Its a man's wheelbarrow!
I bought the property about 18 years ago. Decided I really need a wheel barrow and bought my first front end loader instead. A Ford 9n that did wonders. Eventually my wife bought me the 580ck and it is the best tool I own. 2 FEL's and no wheel barrows. As it should be.
A wife that buys you a backhoe? - "As it should be" :beerchug
Here is a link to the service manual if you need it ----------------> http://www.minnpar.com/partbooks/BA...MANUAL/Case 580CK Series C Service Manual.pdf
Tinkerer, That is a great manual as its a lot more detailed than my 580CK Case manual. The step by step descriptions and accompanying photos would be useful even if the 'C' is exactly the same, many assemblies are or are similar. I'll save this for future reference, as the 188 diesel and fuel sections are much better, although the information is in both manuals, mine does make assumptions that you would be familiar with the process, where the 'C' manual has the step by step descriptions.
I'm glad it helped. By all means download it now. You never know when it may be no longer be available.
Thanks for that link - A lot more info in that 580C manual than my 580CK manual. In the Section 6202 (page 462) regarding the POWER SHUTTLE the directions for "Oil Drain" state: " Park machine on a level surface and apply the parking brake. Remove plug from bottom of flywheel/converter housing. If the converter drain plug is not visible, turn engine over as required to position plug over opening. Then remove converter and Shuttle drain plugs and drain the oil. " This does not say remove plug from bell housing and drain oil. So to me the Torque Converter IS full of oil but the bell housing isn't supposed to be. The pictures like the one below also show the oil flow into and out of the torque converter thru the tube in the center and no where does it show standing oil around the TC in the bell housing. I am know more convinced I have an issue and the oil is NOT supposed to be in the bell housing..... Thoughts anyone?
Keep in mind that the shuttle on a 580 C is substantially different than the 580. The manual link posted is for the 580 C but the engine 188/207 is identical. The other sections are useful in that they show the steps for troubleshooting and repair, even if the actual parts are slightly different. I understand that once you go past the 'C', its entirely different. The old 580 is based on agricultural tractor castings and shares many parts with other machines for the Case lineup of those years. I am of the opinion that oil in the bellhousing on your shuttle equipped 580 is normal. Maybe Delmer or one of the other experienced members here will have other factual information. Hope you can reconcile this for yourself.
Here is link to another board that had a similar discussion about wet bell housings. The man with the username AJ is an very experienced Case mechanic like Melben. AJ helped me several times a few years ago when I had questions. --------> http://www.ssbtractor.com/wwwboard/view_all.cgi?bd=case&msg=11272
If you google Case 580CK torque converter image you can see that it is considerably different from a typical "dry" torque converter in the later models and a typical automatic transmission. It's obviously designed for a wet environment so your starter should also be for that model. As far as the correct level, if you haven't already changed the fluid and filter for the shuttle, it is probably a good idea. That is a vital part that isn't easy to access if it needs repairs so it's a good idea to keep it happy with some clean TCH so you can postpone splitting the tractor as long as possible.