I have a 580K 4wd and it seems to drive on flat ground fine. However when I get to a hill say 4/12 or more it won't go up in 2nd gear. Is this normal? Seems like it should be able to pull up a hill in 2nd. Could it be a problem with the power shuttle? I checked the dip stick and the fluid is actually high but it looks and smells fine? Its a clear oil? What type of fluid should it take?
Inside the converter are 3 elements, the impeller driven by the engine pumps oil against the turbine which drives the power train. return oil from the impeller is redirected by the stator back into the turbine to give it extra boost for the high torque required when the machine is under load. The stator is mounted on a freewheeling clutch, basically a one way bearing which is made with cams instead of rollers so under load the stator is locked to the support shaft. during no or light load the stator can rotate with the impeller and turbine to prvent heat build up. With all that said, if the frewheeling clutch ( one way bearing) has failed or is slipping instead of locking up you won't get the torque multiplication required, instead what you get is a fluid drive which won't give you the power to the wheels that you need. This will result in a higher then normal engine stall speed. Obviously there could be other problems, but this is one that is easy to overlook because it is hidden inside the converter. There was also a service bulletin to change the injecter pump setting for higher horsepower. Program code B0388 Document # NLB MP 014 88. This change will give 74 HP and will raise stall speeds by about 100 RPM. If power shuttle was failing you should see some burnt oil and debris in the oil. Cut open the trans filter to see what is trapped in it.
Is there a torque converter filter on these? I have seen some on other models.
If you have a phase III transaxle, you have a transaxle filter for the whole system in the line from the charge pump to the control valve. There is a suction screen inside the transaxle for the charge pump, this could be partially plugged restricting oil flow. Do you have serial number for this machine?
Not sure of the phase but the power shuttle is separate from the transaxle. Would ther be a filter in the pan like an auto tranny? Are there any screens to check on this?
teberhard, Yes, there is a screen in the sump of the shuttle. (I don't think it is your problem) You should give the machine a stall test - 4th gear full revs in fwd with brakes on should see revs at about 2100rpm, do this test 4 or 5 times & see if revs go to same amount each time. Then carry out stall test in 4th gear in rev with brakes on & rpm should be exactly same as fwd, do this test also 4 or 5 times to see if revs go to same amount each time. If rev pulls engine to lower rpm than fwd - your fwd clutch pack in shuttle is gone. Also if in rev the rpm pulls right down ( below 1500rpm) the convertor is gone. - in this case senario, the bad convertor has killed the fwd pack. If rpm is same in fwd & rev (high rpm above 2100) - convertor is probably at fault.
Ok, so my tach is messed up so its a little hard to do a stall test but I did the test by ear which at this point is better then nothing. The 1st step was to hold the loader in roll back. I think this check is fine as it only drops the rpm a little. The second test is in 4th gear. It has the same rpm in forward and rev which is low. Probably below 1500. When I add the roll back the machine almost stalls. Is this probably the torque converter. Is it worth while to just replace the torque converter or should I have the whole power shuttle rebuilt. I have seen power shuttle rebuild kits that include the pump for around $500. I have read through the service manual and it doesn't look to difficult to rebuild. I have pretty good mechanical experience. How hard would it be to rebuild the power shuttle myself? Do you need any specialized tools.
Generally a bad converter or slipping shuttle will give higher then normal stall speed. Low stall speed usually indicates a power problem with the engine. Anything in the converter or shuttle that is dragging enough to pull stall speed down that much will be making a lot of noise and vibration and will tear up in a hurry.
Looks like the torque convertor has done in what is called "the sprag" - it needs to be repaired. As this is causing the engine to pull down so much, it is sapping all the hp from the engine. When you push into a heap with the loader, the torque convertor should allow the eng rpm to remain high & provide the proper stall - yours is overloading the fwd clutch pack in the shuttle. You will need to take a look in there. If you have a service manual, they are no too difficult to repair & can be done without any special tooling. In saying that, there is the possibility to damage seals while assembling which will only be detected when it is installed & drive is attempted....... then the fun begins........
From what you have described in your stall test it seems the problem you have is a transmission one, oldseabee has made a valid point with regard to engine power. All of the above post is correct - as long as the engine is performing as it should. From what you described happening with your hydraulic stall test (not combined), your engine power is OK. Generally if the hoe can dig a trench without stalling out the engine - engine power should not be a problem. So, when you dig with the hoe, I am assuming the engine performs normally? Plenty of revs under load? If I were performing the stall test, I would be 100% certain of diagnosis - the written results of a test don't allow for smoke, sound, & feel of an engine under load.
Thanks for all the help so far. I think I am narrowing it down to the transmission. I played with it today digging some stumps out and it has plenty of power. Engine doesn't strain at all. No excessive smoke. The engine runs really smooth. Sounds like there is no use in just replacing the torque converter so I'll be rebuilding the shuttle too. Is there any risk in running it the way it is? It still gets around pretty well just low on power.
Just moving the machine around shouldn't be too much of a problem, but using the loader & putting it into the stall situation will create excessive heat in the fwd pack - long term use will do damage - the plates & bellville washer are a no brainer, possibly fwd piston & carrier. Any metal in oil is not taken out as there is no filter in the system -this wears the pump & the transmission housing at the control valve area. Very important to mention is when rebuild time comes - the oil cooler needs to flushed - I normally pump some kero or diesel through it till it comes out clean, followed by some compressed air & then fresh oil. If you don't flush the cooler, the old oil (usually laden with metal) that is in there, instantly contaminates your new tranny & convertor.
Ok, so I am looking at a master rebuild kit from broken tractor. Comes with seal, gasket, and o-ring kit. Bearing kit. Clutch and plate kit and pump. Costs $515. Converter is $395. Would this be about all I would need for a rebuild? Are there any other common things you would need to replace or check when rebuilding? The guy from broken tractor told me to be careful to get the shims properly spaces or it will disintegrate as soon as you start it up. Any other thoughts? I have a friend who is a mechanic so he'll be helping me with the rebuild. Hopefully all goes well.
You have got the basics covered in the way of parts, but there is always the unexpected, I opened one up onsite just yesterday & was hoping to have it done all in one day, took a heap of parts with me, but not the planetary / pinion cage ($1500 over here - might replace 1 in 10 rebuilds) & of course it was shot...... & also found the flexplate on the convertor cracked. Shuttles are not hard to repair........ however there is alot that can go wrong if your not sure about things. I wouldn't recommend you attempt it without a service manual. The "shims" spoken of are actually different thickness snap rings & there is one in fwd that is used as a spacer - (.092") - you have a micrometer or vernier at least? Fwd clutch needs to be adjusted - different snap rings fitted to give a clearance of about .020" - .030" good luck :drinkup
Just ordered my rebuild kit and torque converter. Can't wait for it to get here. Been having some problems with 1st gear popping out so I pulled the shift cover today and the slider gear and 1st gear are pretty worn. Going to replace those as well while I am at it. Can those be serviced without removing the transaxle from the machine. I read a thread where they did that. Looks accessible. Should I replace the bearings on the main shaft and counter shaft also? What else should I look for while I'm in the transaxle?
If I were wanting to do anything like change 1st gear on a transaxle - the transaxle would be out & on a bench. Trying to do that job would be agony on my knees. The mainshaft has to be driven from rear & out the front - I use a 10lb hammer to do that job - that would have to happen from under the machine :spaz A spacer has to be fabricated & held in place to allow the rear bearing to be removed during the banging session - which generally still ruins the rear bearing & spills all the rollers into the bowels of the gearbox. Did I mention the snap ring in the middle of the shaft ?? Or the 1/16" needle roller which aligns the spacer for 3rd/4th syncro?? Take my advice & remove the transaxle - it will only take an hour & you can work in comfort. :yup BTW - the pinion shaft or the countershaft as you describe it, the last thing to come out of the transaxle - it is driven out from front to rear, impossible without removing the crownwheel. Are you getting a service manual? - cheers :drinkup
I do have a service manual. It did look fairly easy to remove the transaxle but I figured looks can be deceiving. How heavy is the transaxle? Do I need heavier then a 1/2" impact gun to remove the main bolts that hold the transaxle to the machine? The machine is at my building lot so I will have to work on it there. Wondering if I should take the transaxle it to my friends shop or try to fashion a bench onsite and work on it there. I read through the section on removing the gear shafts and it doesn't look like i'll need any special tools except the main shaft spacer tool. Do I need that or can I make it work with something else? If so where do I get one? Sounds like I should just get a set of bearings as well as the gears. Is there anything else I would likely need to replace once I am in there?
1) Axle weight - I've never actually had to weigh one, easily be 400 - 500kg. You could use a forklift with fork extentions to get it out or you could just use the machine. Disconnect everything from transaxle except mounting bolts, but loosen them off while machine is raised ( I usually leave the brake cylinders attatched to machine); then lower the machine all the way to the ground; place a few blocks of timber where req to support the transaxle; remove mounting bolts - 1/2" gun won't do it need 3/4" or 3/4" socket set & do it by hand; now raise the machine with stabilizers; using the hoe push yourself over the transaxle; you can now use the hoe to lift the transaxle on to a vehicle. (If the job you are on has a safety program just disregard everything I just said......... The safety officer will have a fit. But I have done this many times - a good operator makes it look easy!) For installation use those same bits of timber & lower the machine down on to the transaxle - another pair of eyes is very handy during this operation. Install the bolts & raise to complete the job - also leave the hoe on the ground while working under the machine in a raised position - another safety hint. Also, while the transaxle is out lower the machine to the ground for safety. 2) The spacer tool can be made from a bit of 2" pipe, cut to length & then another cut down it's length to open it up to form a U shape - mine is a bit of gal fencing pipe. 3) As to what else you will need - gaskets for all covers, orings for brake housings, input seal , When you open this up you could find anything wrong....... the oil leaves a black sludge over everything, so lots of cleaning fluid will be req. ; brakes could be worn ; bull pinions / crownwheel & pinion may have hard facing missing off tooth contact areas......... :beatsme This is workshop job :yup Alot of work to fix 1st gear jumping out - but it may cost you more if you let it go. :drinkup
Thanks for all the help so far! Since I am rebuilding the shuttle also I wanted to pull both at the same time. Can I start the machine and run the hydraulics without the shuttle and torque converter hooked up? Also, will a 3/4" set be enough to pull the mounting bolts and torque them down or should I get a torque multiplier? I think part of the reason 1st gear is gone is because the neutral switch isn't working. I think who ever had it before me just ignored that problem. I need to fix that while I am rebuilding the shuttle. Where do I start to look at for that issue?
1) Yes, you can run the engine with no shuttle & convertor fitted. 2) Yes, a 3/4" should be sufficient for axle bolts 3) I am assuming you mean the transmission cut out switch - there should be 2, one on the gearshift & one on the loader control lever - do both not work? First check the solonoid on the LHS of shuttle - see if wires are connected & should have power when buttons are pushed. If no power check fuses. Next check power supply to the switches - they are a PITA to work with - the wires get twisted up during install. Have to give them a couple of twists anti - clockwise first & then fit the switch. Could have problem there. How worn is the gear? Can you post a picture? I have seen half the tooth area missing on bad ones - never on a 580K. There's no reason to grate the selection of first - it should go in fine when neutral is selected on shuttle lever - Can you change the 4 speed while in neutral?
Yes, neither the of the cut off switches work. I'll check the fuses and then power to the switches. Here are some pictures of the gears. 1st is pretty worn. Second is a little worn as well so I'll replace that. I took some pictures of the synchro as there is a little wear. Should I drop $225 and just replace the synchro as well?
Re syncro - hard to say if it needs replacing from a picture, they usually do have a little movement. By the looks of the gears (inc. hard facing gone off 1st) I think 1st & 2nd have done ALOT more work than 3rd & 4th, so I wouldn't think it would need replacing. I hope you're replacing 1st on the pinion shaft as well - it needs doing, maybe 2nd as well. They run a nylon oil slinger on pinion shaft - can't really see it in pics, but by the look of teeth on 2nd , it probably needs doing too. Is there much end float on mainshaft? Probably best to strip it & see what you actually need & then order parts.
I was wondering about the oil slinger. It does look a little worn and its only $70. I think the syncro is ok and 3rd and 4th work fine but its hard to know where to stop when you already have the transaxle out. Your probably right. Once I have it out I can see all the worn parts and decide which is worth replacing. I definitely am going to replace the 1st and 2nd slider gear as well as the 1st and 2nd gear on the pinion shaft.
Hi have you had any problem with stabilizers not lowering or raising and extahoe not moving? Thank you all for your help
No, my stabilizers work fine. I don't have an extahoe so can't comment. The engine and hydraulics are all good just not the trans.
Alrman. What do you mean by end float. Are you talking movement in the shaft itself?
Still rounding up a parts list. Are the shims on the shaft soft parts? Should that be something I would need to replace?
Yes, movement in shaft - laterall movement usually measured with a dial gauge. As the transmission is built with tapered roller bearings, when they wear, or if not put together properly, there could be excessive end float on the shaft. I was just curious as to whether any was present as this would add to the "jumping out of gear" problem. Shims are reusable & can be made from shim stock if required. The large shims at the crownwheel carrier plates - I purchase. As I work on alot of these I stock all shims & pinion spacers.
Can't seem to find a new aftermarket 1st/2nd slider gear. Found some used ones but can't see taking the time to open this this up just to put a used gear in. But the after markets are 45 days back ordered. You know of anywhere I could get one or should I not be afraid of putting in a good used slider.
Sorry, I'm not much help with locating parts over there - maybe someone else can suggest? If you can get used & they are in good condition, there is nothing wrong with that - all your other gears are used as well!
I saved a lot of money when i purchased a full set of gears and shafts for my machine. Here is link -- http://www.joseph.com/
So far I have pulled the shuttle and transaxle. Was actually pretty easy to pull them. Transaxle bolts where a little tuff to break but not too bad. Definitely can't complain. still waiting on a couple parts for the transaxle but I have the shuttle rebuilt already. We spent about 5 hrs rebuilding it but we took our time reading the manual making sure we had everything right. Will be rebuilding the transaxle next week and hoping it goes as well as the shuttle. will update when complete.
There is quite a cavity in a 580K with no shuttle & transaxle fitted! When you fit the shuttle make sure it goes all the way to the bellhousing - by hand - NO bolts to pull it in!
alrman, thanks for all your help so far. Getting ready to open the transaxle now that I have all the parts. I am going to fab the spacer tool out of a 2 inch pipe like you suggest. Do you know the length the piece of pipe needs to be?
My spacer is 1 1/8" - but it's probably a little short - I never get around to makin' a new one. Probably make it 1 1/2" & it should be OK.
Started taking it apart today and got hung up on the differential. The left hand gear assembly that should slide off the cross shaft is hung. Right side slide off no problem. Its the shaft that goes through the brakes. At this point I think I am going to just cut the gear off the shaft. Any other suggestions?
Side gear should just pull off........... You have the big bull gears out? Shouldn't have to 'cut' gear - hard to do without damaging the cross-shaft + add $$$ to repair ..... how far can you move it? PS - those thrust washers between side gears & crownwheel carrier are different thicknesses - keep them where you found them.
Im very interested in seeing how your rebuild turns out, ive got a k myself which has high hours and similar symptoms to your machine, however my problem seems to be only converter related (according to stall test). have you figured out whether you have the phase 3 unit with the carraro transaxle? good luck with your rebuild and keep us posted.
My 580K is a phase one. The shuttle is separate from the transaxle. Rebuild went well on the transaxle side. It took some time and some pounding to get the side gear off because of some wear on the shaft. Everything was working well for the first 10hrs or so. But today I was moving a pile of dirt and all of a sudden I couldn't drive into the pile. Reverse works just fine and has plenty of power. When I shift into forward it feels fine and giving it just slight pedal it seems to pull fine but as soon as you hit the gas it looses power. It seems like I am loosing pressure in the shuttle when in forward under load. I am going to finish digging my foundation since reverse is still working fine and I have a friend with a skid steer that is moving my material. Any ideas what could be causing this. Would there be a possible seal that went?
Looks like I'll have to do a pressure test on the shuttle to figure out what's going on with forward. Can any pressure gage be used that can handle at least 200-300psi?
The two little teflon seals on the mainshaft are easily damaged during assembly - that's where my bet would be. Gauge really needs to be 300 - 500 psi to be sure of not damaging it. Pressure testing will only confirm what you already know........ probably best, spending the time pulling the shuttle again - just think how good you will be at removal & installation.
That was my first thought as I remember on assembly looking at those 2 teflon seals and saying 'Man I hope I don't damage those'. The shuttle is actually pretty easy to take out and back in so not too big of a deal. What's another couple hrs on a job that's already taken me almost 20hrs. Well its been a good learning experience anyway. Is there anyway it could be the control valve? I did replace a seal in there too. Could that cause any issue with the clutch cut out? thanks again.
Any advice on installing the shaft without damaging those teflon seals again? Should I apply any oil or grease to the seals? Just so I understand what's going on... If those seals are leaking then when I hit the gas and increase torque the pressure drops and the forward clutch slips? If so, I probably shouldn't run it too long without pulling the shuttle again. I have mainly been using reverse just to get to where I need to dig. Got a few more days of digging before they can start the foundation. Then I'll pull the shuttle again. Anything else to look for besides those seals that could be causing the symptoms?
I normally give the teflon seals a good squeeze inwards before fitting them to shaft - hard to describe in writing........kind of like the coil of a spring........ & lube them with vasolene (white petroleum jelly). Fit the shaft & pull it out again, do it a couple of times chances are if it went in two or three times & it is still good - it will be OK. These seals control pressure to fwd. There is also a small expansion plug in the end of the shaft - just make sure it is still there. It it also highly possible the seal on the fwd piston could be pinched. The seal in the control valve would leak externally if it was damaged. If the dump valve had a problem - rev would also be playing up. The sooner you look inside, the less wear on the fwd plates - shouldn't cause too much damage just trying to drive it.
Is that a metal plug? Because I don't remember seeing anything else but a metal end on that shaft?
Yes, it's like a tiny 'freeze plug', made of steel. It is there to plug the drilling in the centre of the shaft for the fwd oil pressure gallery. There is no need to replace it or anything, just make sure it is still there as I have seen a couple of them dislodge over the years.
Ok, took the shuttle out last night and started to take it apart. As soon as I got to the reverse clutch pack I saw what happened. The snap ring that holds the forward clutch cylinder in popped off. So now I am wondering why the heck it popped off. Wondering if you can verify thicknesses of the snap rings. I remember when we were putting the forward clutch pack back together we found a discrepency in the manual. The manual says the snap ring that holds the rear pressure plate for the forward clutch pack must be .090 to .093. Well after fighting with this we measured the slot where the snap ring sits and it measure about .079 or .08. The step where you install the snap ring that holds the cylinder says it must be .074 to .078 thick but the slot measures .095 or so. After much contimplation we figured this must be a print error so we reversed the snap rings. Do you happen to know if this is correct? Hope that makes sense. Anyway right now I can't get the cylinder to seat far enough to get that snap ring into place. Once I get off work I am going to take the shaft and cylinder out of the ring gear so I can make sure nothing in the clutch pack got damaged when that snap ring came off. Will post again later.
I can't comment on the thickness discrepancy but common sense will easily sort that one out. Do make sure that the load side of the groove for the ring is sharp and not knackered up. Maybe a new circlip, if that is what you have there, to make sure it has the proper tension and diameter. When they stamp circlips out there is a sharp side and a slightly rounded side. To give it the best chance make sure the sharp side is towards the load.
I have the forward clutch apart and looking at the groove for the snap ring that holds the top pressure plat in I noticed its bevelled on one side. Is that suppose to be like that or is the ring gear worn. Sure looks like it was machined that way. So there is no way a snap ring will hold any pressure in that direction anyway. Is this snap ring just meant to be a spacer? Assume the book is right about the size snap ring there is no way .090 will fit in that groove.
The snap ring (#13) that goes above the fwd pressure plate is indeed a spacer - 090"- .093" (refer to reply #14) The snap ring (#5) that retains the fwd piston carrier is about .075" Snap ring (#21) is the one that adjusts the clearance in the fwd pack - pick one from the kit that will give you about .025" - .030" There is no mistake in the manual - or none that I know about regarding the shuttle
alrman thanks for the response. Now that I now that snap ring on the forward clutch is just a spacer it makes alot more sense. The manual makes it sound like its a retaining snap ring and there is no way it retains anything so it threw me off. the manual should say install snap ring as a spacer and there would have been no problems. Got it all back together and its running like a champ now. Thanks for all the help. Even though it took alot of time and some mistakes it sure saved a ton of money rebuilding the shuttlen and transaxle. Would do it again.