What Info I have says to use "Case TCH Fluid" in the power shuttle. (8 quarts) 2 questions... A) Can I check this cold like the oil or does the oil need to be warm and the engine running? B) Can I use this hydraulic fluid like I am using in the hydraulic reservoir (12 gallons I think) http://www.tractorsupply.com/traveller-reg-universal-tractor-trans-hydraulic-fluid-5-gal--0806391 I also have another product that reads "Xtreme" and is slightly more expensive. I was told it was better for not foaming etc. (When cold this stuff seems THICKER than the product shown in the link.) No one close to me keeps the Case TCH fluid but I could travel 40 miles to get some if I could be educated on the benefits. What Tractor Supply sells is like $45 for a 5 gallon bucket and the information on the bucket seems to indicate it will replace any and all of these type fluids. BTW my manual also says to use the Case TCH fluid, same as the Power Shuttle. I need to change the Power Shuttle fluid as soon as I get a new oring, as that is all I read I need except for some kind of silicone sealant for the pan. (Clean only the screen) One place says to use Clear Permatex sealant, but it looks like the blue or black would be a better choice for this. Thanks in advance for your advice.
Shuttle Photo Sorry, one more question. This is the shuttle housing. See that sensor on the line coming out of the housing?.. What IS that?:beatsme You can see the wire was loose and I reconnected it properly. The Oil temp gage was NOT working and I thought I had found the problem, but no luck. The oil temp gage still sits at zero. However my hourmeter now works which was dead before. I did replace the tach fitting to fix my RPM gauge which is not electronic. I have wiring diagrams that show I have an electric houmeter, but the thing is inside the RPM display, so I think it's mechanically driven, UNLESS this fitting on the shuttle has something to do with the hourmeter!
This is what my guages look like. 580 Super E 1985 model
Hi Bowen. You can run hydraulic oil in your shuttle. I run the same 68 grade as I use in the hydraulics. To check the oil, start the engine and let it idle for a couple of minutes...then pull the dipstick and check. The sensor in the photo is the shuttle oil temperature sender.
the I suppose I will start with a voltmeter at the sensor. Anyone know what voltage range this is supposed to read ? I really don't know the "Oil Temp: gauge is for the power shuttle fluid, but this is the only gauge I have. I know there is an "oil pressure" sensor & I think this works the small light. (It works altho it stay on about 5 seconds after the engine starts) If I have some form of voltage at the sensor I suppose I have to look for the same voltage up at the guage. I either have a bad sensor, wiring problem, or gauge.. The hand never moves up at all.
I have a case 580B....Can I run the Case TCH Fluid for all Hydraulic needs....I am brand new to Backhoes and know nothing....I have to learn to use it first....Then learn to maintain it....Charlie
You should try to get some form of operators or technical manual to start learning about the unit. They can be pretty expensive to work on. I am trying to do all I can myself, although my background is more in way smaller machines.
Oil temp guage - is for shuttle - I've never seen one move, except when doing a stall test, for a LONG time. They were probably never matched properly from the factory. I wouldn't worry about it. If you earth the wire & gauge moves up , gauge is OK. Oil pressure light - is engine oil pressure.
Wow.. interesting. Maybe mine is OK, because I have never overworked the shuttle so far as I know. I am about to change the fluid and the manual says to put the thing in 3rd gear, lock the parking brake and heat the oil up good.. I did find THIS today . This is right behind the battery compartment underneath. Someone took a ground strap off that connects the frame to maybe the engine. I am going to fix this next. I just wonder what all this would effect? (Being unconnected.) You can see one end is just hanging in the air. Someone had replaced the negative strap from the battery which is on the other side, and they failed to get this back on.:Banghead It does crank, charge etc all with no problem. The oil pressure light does stay on for 5 seconds after I crank it, and I don't know if that is abnormal or not. It never comes back on. After all the problems I had getting the oil cooler repaired I think I got some water in the power shuttle fluid. I see some slight milky looking stuff on the dipstick. I am going to drain it Sunday or Monday. I blew out the oil cooler as best I could but the way the tubes are made it's almost impossible to get all the water out where they immersed the cooler to pressurize it and find the leaks.
I think the 'E's' used to mount the horn on that bolt also. There was a similar braided strap from battery to chassis - has a new earth strap been fitted to it maybe? From battery to engine somewhere?
Not one added that I know of, but I will look closer. Surely no harm in just reconnecting this one. There is another strap close to the starter on the other side of the engine; it's in place. Items 14 & 14A in this diagram.
I have decided you must be correct. When grounded the gauge goes all the way up. Cold I get 6.8K Ohm resistance across the sensor, and warm I get about 1.4K across the sensor (external heat applied, engine not running) But just using the backhoe moving dirt around on the farm, the hand on the guage seems to be at the bottom, and not working. I think with my newly repaired and clean oil cooler, this may NEVER read anything. I will try the stall test this weekend.
Well now I am befuddled with the fluid change. I heated the power shuttle fluid up an found that I have leaks up on top of the shuttle on each side. But that's not my immediate problem. I understood from my service manual that I was to drain the torque converter by rotating the engine until I could see the drain hole up in the flywheel housing drain plug. Is this correct?! Because I rotated the engine forever and NEVER found anything that could be a plug. I am working by myself and the only way I can rotate the engine is via the fan, crawling underneath and back up top... What am I doing wrong, or is the manual incorrect? I finally left the thing draining until tomorrow. I did get the filter all cleaned; it was not all that dirty, but the fluiid looked terrible. I will measure the fluid tomorrow top see how much drained out, but it looks to be maybe 5-6 quarts, vs. the 8 quarts that I am supposed to add back. Do I just put fluid back in and then drain/refil again later? I really wanted ALL that fluid out. BTW my oil temp gauge IS working, but even when the oil cooler lines are maybe 100 degrees to touch, the gauge only moves up a tad. This is on a 580 Super E.
When draining convertor oil by myself, I set up a mirror, on the ground under the bell housing so I can see the drain plug come round while I turn the engine. Sometimes a torch may be required to see...... 7/16" socket req. It's possible the convertor may have been replaced & no plug exists???
I don't know, but I did have one mechanic tell me that some do NOT have a drain plug in the torque converter. Is the 7/16" plug not pointing DOWN? because I can see the head of one bolt in there but this is horizontal. If that's the drain it would be a booger to get back it. I suppose I will refill the pan and maybe do it again later, less the filter cleaning. Most use silicone for the pan gasket, but the local Case place sold me a gasket. Case part number R29956 which does show on some other machine parts list. He says if the pan is cast (mine is) and not damaged to use the gasket with NO silicone. He has taken too many apart to find silicone up in the screen where too much was used etc. (You see that some was on mine) Mine is a beefy pan and I can't tell that it's warped or damaged in any way. Does anyone else use the $9 gasket? I may have found the leak on top. I think I had overfilled the shuttle last week. (maybe 1/2 quart) Then when I did the warm up the leak showed coming down both sides. I see that there is a vent/breather up on top of the shuttle. I wonder if the overfill and warm up cause the oil to come out the breather?
All the borg warner convertors had the drain plug from factory & they are in the vertical position. The ones that don't have a plug were Super K's (JJG20000+) & later models. Look harder Bowen, it's easy to miss - I could be wrong, but your shuttle dosen't even look like it's been out, so I'm guessing it is still there. I prefer to use a gasket - if I have one at the ready, otherwise it gets the silicone treatment - as said above don't go silly with it - a small bead 2-4mm wide all that is req. Leak from the breather is a worry........ hopefully just because it was overfilled. Hardly seeen a shuttle NOT leak from the control valve @ cut-out solonoid.
I have already looked at the parts and ordered a right side gasket and o-ring (items 43 & 49) but I have no idea if this will fix the leak. IF it is the control valve, does all the o-rings inside have to be replaced? ANd does the shuttle have to come out? I do know oil was coming down both sides of the shuttle. Mine will start in gear so I have to find out why. I may need a new neutral start switch. It's so mucked up I can't even see the parts. I am nursing a torn rotator cuff in my shoulder and turning the engine is a chore for me. Tell me this. If I turn the fan 1 revolution, does it turn the torque converter 1 revolution? I will look once again for that plug. Thanks. I am taking one step forward and two steps back it seems.
And I hope that IS the hole I am supposed to be shining a light up into... just behind the oil pan. BTW this plus has been missing forever. I have a new one but I have to clean the threads up before it will screw in. It's a 3/4 NPT thread
I hear ya Bowen, I had some trouble finding my drain plug as well. After turning the engine over about 20 times, I did this.... -mark the top of the crank pulley with some white chalk -stick your finger in the drain hole, as far as you can reach on the circumference of the TC - my TC had a 1/8" BSP plug for the drain. It will be sticking out about 1/4"or so. -rotate engine a small amount, using the chalk mark as your guide (the crank pulley will be 1:1 with the TC) It's still a pain to do it like this but at least you will only be turning the engine over once You will be able to remove the cut-out solenoid without removing the shuttle. (Alrman may be able to advise on the o-ring question) The machine has a neutral start sensor on the opposite side (from the c/o solenoid) check whether the wire has come off.
To reseal the control valve - it must be removed. 1) Unscrew solonoid & remove snap ring 2) Oil filler pipe & fitting RHS + PUT RAG IN HOLE to prevent ball bearing falling into shuttle. 3) triangle shaped plate with 3 bolts RHS There is external oring, some have 2. Also internal seal at plunger - remove roll pin to pull plunger. Bore of valve may need a hone if rusty - use a brake cyl hone There is a engine turning tool you can purchase from Case or Snap On # YA9565A - they are slow, but makes it real easy
I had found the Case tool # CAS1690A from Coleman for like $45, but online it says "discontinued". Snapon online says $65 maybe. I would like to have one. Also good when getting the hyd pump coupling off. I am going to find that plug, get the oil changed and then work on the other later to be sure the leak is really the control valve. I have other issues. The neutral switch must be jumped out because it will start in gear. Also the clutch solenoid button on the bucket lever does nothing. I need to get all this cleaned so I can find the parts. I am surprised to read that the clutch solenoid just "screws off". I suppose I would need the o-rings item 50. I already ordered 43 & 49. I do not know yet if I need a new solenoid or have a wiring problem. My fuel tank shutoff valve was leaking pretty bad and fuel was all over the shuttle area. Right now I have all the air box assy off, all cleaned and painted, and plan to remove the fuel tank to clean and paint it. I have new valves ordered for the tank also. Thanks for the help, and I sure need it.
I think OTC makes that Cummins engine barring tool as well.
Wow. I already looked unsucessfully at OTC, but did not know to call it a "barring tool" http://www.tooltopia.com/otc-tools-...oglebase_18u&gclid=CM-hqeOb7KwCFQpV7Aod_0DGKw I think I may order me one. OTC7471A
That Darned Torque Converter Drain Well thanks to the help I FINALLY found the little rascal. I put a mark on the front pulley, and every time I got underneath I put a numbers on the TC with a sharpie. Finally at my # 12, I found the tiny 1/8" pipe plug, just like I was told. 11mm socket I think I was turning the engine too much at the time, and going past the plug. I got about 2 qts out of the TC, making just shy of 2 gallons out total. I actually spilled maybe a pint. So now I put standard Hyd oil in from Tractor Supply right? ($45) Or to I buy the Case Hytran Ultra that is $95/bucket? I have decided I don't like this heat up procedure; that's when my control valve leak showed up, locked down in 4th gear with full throttle for 40 seconds... BTW it's HARD to get a picture of that plug! It's at least 2" up inside the dark housing hole and the flash does nothing. I finally put a pen light in at an angle to get this fuzzy photo. It's amazing what all you can learn if you know nothing to begin with about something. I am used to working on mowers, 4-wheelers, and 2 cycle engines. Thanks again. Benny
From the picture I posted on 12-5-11 you can see a fitting with wires up above the large solenoid. It has a wire on it plus I have a cut wire hanging down. I I have determined this may be a Backup Alarm swiitch. Must close just in reverse. The switch looks similar to the neutral switch on the drawing. I did not know I had a backup alarm at all IF this is what the switch actually is. It's a real simple circuit with key switched 12VDC on the switch, and then the circuit goes directly to the alarm. My question is this: WHERE do they put the actual alarm, buzzer, beeper, or whatever it is. So far I have not came across one at all. Is the thing hidden someplace?:eek2
On my 580c the backup alarm is under the floor panel on the left seat belt mounting bolts. Not sure if that is where yours is.
Did it look like either of these 2 options? It's not clear where the alarm mounts. They just call them "round" style or "rectangular". Also, looks like some machines have a limit switch vs. the screw in style.
I have the same alarm and bracket but looks like it mounts differently. Mine mounts to the bottom of the floor plate or at least that is where I found it.
I had the floor out of my SE last weekend to repair the brakeline and I saw the alarm mounted center on the same cross member that the seat is mouted to.
Well I did get my control valve out today. A pipe wrench broke the solenoid loose and the thing screwed off easily. Will the electrical plug go together backwards? The snap ring is the kind I don't like because it has no holes, but I got it out. On the other end I used a 1 7/16" + a 1 5/8" wrench for the fill tube, then a 7/16" ratchet for the 3 bolts. The cover was stuck and when I tapped it with a hammer all the parts went in 4 different directions, but I think I found all the parts. A ball, spring etc. One photo here shows what is underneath the cover. Getting that ball to stick back in place will be fun. I suppose the ball sits inside the spring and into one of the holes. When I got the valve cleaned up I can see rotational scarring in the center. Maybe .003" deep grooves, you can feel the wear with your finger. Will this be OK? Tomorrow I may tackle taking this thing apart. So far I have not determined how to do this, but I hope to only remove one pin on the solenoid side. The bottom picture is the neutral swith: it's a tiny thing with a fixed ball in the center that presses in to make the switch. The round plate with the ball detents just comes off, but has a groove that seats it into a certain position. So far I can see only one o-ring that is on the outside of the control valve. The seal on the solenoid end is hard to see, but it's up inside the spring loaded end plunger.
You should not see the trans temp gage rise under normal operation, it is not mismatched , it is there to indicate an overheat condition. Proper operation can be verified by performing a stall test and heating the oil, no damage will result to a properly maintained and a reverser in good condition. It is the same syatem used through the 580K series prior to the phase 3 systems and reacts exactly the same, no indication under normal operation. Mel
I wonder what degrees they consider too hot? I know that when I got my gauge up to barely decide it was working the oil cooler lines were almost too hot to hold. I would guess 110 degrees F. I would still like to put a 10 ohm resistor in line with mine, or whatver resistance might be needed to rise it up a bit. Are you a Case engineer? I hope you did not design this little lip seal that always leaks at the solenoid... This is easy to take apart. Drive out the small pin and pull out the parts. The little seal fits into a groove and the little plastic tool is to compress the outside lip to get the plunger back inside the housing. Mine just had one of the item 50 o-rings, This is on the outside and easy to replace. I jusy hope that these worn places around the outside is not a problem. I did not take the other end apart. I'm sure most of you know this, but this spring loaded plunger is what goes up inside the solenoid. The solenoid has a spring up inside that is stronger than this spring and it holds this one in, unless the clutch is energized. My solenoid had some oil up inside it that I let drain out. I do not know if this is normal or not.
Bowen, the oil content in the valve is normal. I usually flush the body with kero & while washing, continually depress the internal plunger to be sure it is not sticking, dry & then lube with a squirt of fresh oil from an oil can - make sure the bore where the seal sits is not rusted. Don't know if you realise, the shuttles are designed by Borg Warner - not Case. They can be found in JCB, Chamberlain, JD, (with slight differences) & others I don't know about. I believe they are used in marine applications also.
Since the gage pegs when the wire is grounded - virtually no resistance- then it stands to reason that adding resistance to the circuit would compound the problem that you do not like. You would have to find a sender with LESS ohms as a starting point to accomplish what you want. You do realize that 110 deg. is just above body temp a few degrees and Case considers 100 deg above ambient to be an acceptable working temp for the main hydraulic system. The gage is designed to show you an overheat not a normal operating temp although the unit is in no danger working in the green. After a rebuild is off my bench and installed I lock it down in high gear and force the gage reading into the red at full engine throttle and then check clutch application to make sure of my work and to leak check. One of the last things to worry about is if that gage has an indication in normal operation. My advice for what it's worth is to put it to work, in normal day to day, tranny temp is a non issue. Alrman is correct, the Borg Warner unit in question is the same as many other brands use. I have rebuilt JD 310 units right out of our Case parts books with the exception of the torque converter. There is a difference in the reverse plates but Case stuff goes right in and works in place of what Deere uses. Mel
You are exactly right Mel, I was thinking in reverse. ops I measured the resistance on this sensor which was something like 6800 ohms at 55 degrees. So it ranges from near zero(hot) up to 6.8K thereabouts. I could parallel maybe a 20K resistor across the sensor to manipulate the range from 0 to ~5K (vs 0-6.8k) , or maybe use a 15K resistor that would manipulate the range up to only ~4600 ohms. This would bring the needle up some at all times, but screw with the heat curve which I am sure is a bad idea. I likely will do nothing except know that if this gauge gets up 1/3 of the way I need to look at the oil cooler because something is abnormal. Seems to me these machines are designed beefy to run cool even with some crap covering the grill as so often is the case in bad environments When I had my oil cooler off & needed to crank the machine I put a 3 foot section of 1/2" semi-clear polyflo tubing in the hose fittings, letting the fluid circulate with no cooling nor resistance from the cooler tubes. I was amazed at how fast the oil was circulating thru the tube whan I cranked the machine. I could also see that my oil was dirty even with some particles passing thru the tube at times. I wondered during this if anyone changes the shuttle fluid at the oil cooler like this. Remove one hose coupling at the cooler and pump clean fluid thru the transmission, Torgue Converter and cooler all at the same time. I know thay do this with automobiles and a pump saying it changes ALL the fluid... I know this would not clean the screen, but it would have eliminated me finding that little TC plug. Thanks for you input to help educating me. :bash
This was before I cleaned it up. I wanted a picture to see the orientation for how the seal came off. You can see a bit of rust on the shaft which I polished a bit with some 600 grit sandpaper, just to protect the new seal sliding on. Down in the goove it was pretty clean. The little seal is pretty tight sliding on because it's inside OD is a good bit smaller than this shaft. For rbmiles the seal in the photo sits in the oily groove over to the left. The other photo is the blue tapered tool as the plunger goes back in. It compresses the outside seal lip. You can also the see the pin that I was starting to put back in. That pin is the only thing holding this plunger in the valve. Beside the pin is the other o-ring, item 50 in the parts list. To hold that little ball on the spring when putting the cover back on I read someplace to use Vasoline(petroleum jelly). I hope this is the secret cause it's hard to see up in there while laying on my back. This is everything involved ready to put back on I think. Thanks again. I am now eager to get this thing back in and filled with oil. I am nervous we will have an ice storm with trees down all over the place and me with no backhoe.
Just a thought to add into the mix, The torque converter while running acts as a centrifuge and all the dirt would be thrown to the outside while the engine is running possibly making a running flush such as you describe a bit ineffective. Transmission shops used to have a fixture that the converters are put onto to introduce a cleaning agent to loosen internal debris. Anyone who works with the old 450 Case takeapart converters can attest to the gray sludge that accumulates in the converter that is so thick it needs to be scraped out. A simple plug removal and allowing the converter to drain on its own imho is about as effective as anything although I'm all for flushing the cooler and lines, Actually Case recommends new coolers as part of a rebuild but------------------------- . Mel
Well I am back home after getting the thing all back in. I'm tired, cold & frustrated. I got it back together, filled it with oil and everything was OK until I tried to heat the oil up in 4th gear with the parking brake on. I crawled under after I got the oil level full and seen this... You can see that stream down from the end with that little lip seal. This was after runnig for 15 minutes or so backing up forward etc. The other side is fine, neutral switch, linkage etc. The question I have now is about the solenoid. I did not get this as tight as it was before because there seems to be no stop in this direction. Seems I am stressing the linkage doing this. How do I hold the thing to get this tighter, and might THIS be the problem? Also my clutch switches are not working but I can short out the button wire to operate the solenoid if you think this might help seat the little seal somehow. I did not try this today... I did use rubber grease on this seal & o-rings, Was THIS a mistake? Is my housing possibly worn inside so that a new seal & o-ring will not stop the leak? It was fairly easy to get out and back in, even with the new item 50 o-ring, not much resistance. I am 95% sure I turned the lip seal the right way, with the lip going on first. Everything seems to work great just this leak that is maybe about the same as before. Seems I do not have a leak so long as I don't try to "warm up" the oil. This must build high pressure in the shuttle. I was just warming it up to check the final fluid level.
Sure it's not coming from the breather? If not ......... pull it apart again.......... think how much quicker you will be at it this time...... You can tighten the solonoid better if you put the FNR lever into ...... reverse I think. That way the selector plate is on the stops. Same goes for undoing it - but in fwd.
If you noticed in the shuttle breakdown the later shuttles use 2 #50 orings and I have chucked the spool up in a lathe and added the second ring on prior models not so equipped, look the bore over carefully and position it so it is in a untouched spot and make an appropriate cutter to match the shape of the original groove. You might be able to fudge just a little on depth to tighten it up a bit but not a lot or it will cut the ring or bind the spool, this would have to be done carefully and just a few thousanths may do the trick . the spool has positive stops on the engagement lever that stop against the housing so you can use those stops to tighten the solenoid up, it will only turn to detent in either direction. If necessary I have used a hammer and a punch on the wrench flat to set them tight. Mel
:shf Pull it apart AGAIN ?!:crying Well I did not look up top but I suppose it could be leaking from the vent. I don't know if that would be good or bad. If I take that SOB out again I will jack the thing up so I can sit on my butt vs lay on my back. I have a bad shoulder with a rotator cuff problem at the moment plus I am laying on a piece of cardboard in the hall of a big barn with no water or power. It's like a one armed man working in the dark with a flashlight. Also before I pull it out again I will somehow CLEAN the whole thing so I can tell what parts I am working on more clearly. Especially up top where the vent is.. I've never even seen the vent. In the beginning I thought the leak may have been coming from the vent because I seen oil running down both sides. This time it's NOT overfilled. I will try to get the solenoid a bit tighter and watch it closely. Right now I am in no mood to pull this rascal out again. Do I have to drain any/all the oil out again to remove the stem? Even if I took it out I don't know what to look for. I thought I done a proper job replacing the parts. Mel I will try the punch idea. If it's normal for oil to get up inside the solenoid then I may just need to get this thing tighter. Looks like it needs another rubber washer or something around the solenoid threads. Was I suppose to put thread sealant on these coarse threads? Another thing I noticed was oil coming from around the solenoid wires. This was when I had the thing sitting upright draining the oil from within. But this leak is NOT from around the wires. Many thanks again for the help. Hopefully others are learning stuff from reading about my problems. I got to get me a footswitch ordered to work this solenoid because it's good. My neutral switch is also good. Closed in neutral, and open in Fwd or Rev. Yet the thing still starts in gear, so I suspect there is a jumper someplace. The jumper is not down at the connector, so this is something I will find later. I don't know why they put a jumper on unless it was giving some trouble?
That area should be completely dry, no sealers or washers, as others have said check ans find if it coming from the vent, it stands straight on top and has a small metal cover that moves a bit if it is all there and in one piece, if oil was running down both sides that is a possibility.
I wish mine had the two o-rings and might look into adding one later. One other thing I did notice. That little groove that the lip seal fits into was a fair amount wider than the new seal. Not much play in the groove, maybe .010, but I could see the space and move the new seal on the inside groove shaft It just appeared that the lip seal needed to be fatter to fill the groove. Surely Case did not send me the wrong seal. The old one filled the space up, but it appeared squashed down also. The lip on the old seal did not show at all. .. I don't know if the seal or the o-ring is leaking, and it might be both. I just bet my shuttle has a groove worn inside; I should have felt up inside before I put the thing back together. If the surface inside the shuttle where the lip seal sits was rusty I suspect this could cause a problem. I did not take my valve all the way apart. Maybe this would be something to look at. If my spring was weak it would not press the seal as tight when the solenoid was energized, but my solenoid was never energized at all. So now that plunger is pressed up into the valve. I guess that litty-bitty lip is supposed to be stopping any oil that gets past the o-ring. Just give me some time to evaluate/eliminate the vent question.:drinkup
Wow Bowen, sounds like you are working hard. I appreciate all the pics and info because as you know I have the same issue. One question I have (which may be stupid) is can you run it without the solenoid attached? If so that might help you determine where the problem is (O Ring vs Seal).
I suppose I could screw the solenoid off and crank it but it should never go into gear because when the plunger is out, that's neutral. The spring in the solenoid is strong and (not energized) it pushes the other spring into the shuttle, which is fairly easy to push. If I cranked it, crawled under and pushed the pin in with my finger.... A) That would be really dangerous unless I had the wheels off the ground or whatever. B) I might get a face full of oil. But it would be interesting to see how much came out. I am still having trouble accepting that oil gets up into the solenoid at all. That thing has two wires sticking thru a hole in the side. When the 12V solenoid is energized it "sucks" the larger spring inside away from this plunger letting the smaller spring move the thing out into neutral. Kinda weird spring notations, with two working opposite of each other. :crazy I think others have the problem with one or maybe even both of these springs being rusted or stuck, and if the solenoid spring was stuck up inside it would always be in neutral. I don't see how the valve spring could stick in but if it did.. the thing would always be in gear and the solenoid could not put it into neutral. BUT as I understand it the hand lever/linkage can ALWAYS put the thing in neutral, no matter what this solenoid plunger is doing.:scool This is how I understand the thing and if I am wrong with any of these details I'm sure someong smarter will speak up.
You are exactly right and this helped me. Tonight I got to work a bit on it, but did not have time to test this. But I can say the leak is NOT the vent, it's dry up above the solenoid. But I was able to put the thing in reverse then tighten the solenoid maybe 1/8 a turn. So... I'm hoping this stops the leak. To see it leak I have to lock the brake and do the heat up crap which I have decided I don't like.:roll It was near dark before I got to look at this again. To recap, put the thing in Forward to loosen the solenoid, and reverse to tighten it.:exactly
Well thanks to bowen's pics and insights as well as some good weather, I went for it this weekend. It was a frustrating job getting the ball and spring in the detent but I finally did get her back together and so far everyting is nice and dry! My E brake dosen't work (disc was missing when I bought it) so I can't do the "heat up crap" which is probably a good thing. I did drive it for about half a mile (which would usually have it leaking like a sieve) and everything was still dry. Thank you everyone (especially bowen) for all the information.
Good work! You obviously got the seal in right the first time!
Congrats, it always feels good to see a good outcome. I do take exception however to your "warm up crap" comment. Warming up the power shuttle in no way will hurt the system, it is simply working in the same mode that it would be pushing into a pile. The Case service manuals give us specific instructions to check stall speeds for Hydraulics and Torque Converter "stall speeds". I don't know if you have a misconception of what's going on at stall but in a normally operating unit there is no clutch slippage, just normal TC operation goin on. Clutch pack leakage that doesn't show up cold often is sniffed out by stalling the unit till it reaches operating temp then doing shifts and watching and listening for slow or no clutch response. While you may shudder at the thought, the unit is sturdy enough to take wide open shifts from forward to reverse, not recommended of course but I have seen it done. A stall test is one of the gentler things that happen to a PS unit over it's lifetime and to us Case Techs an invaluable tool to not only diagnose PS problems but to single out engine power problems as well. If I had a dollar for every stall test over the years I could take a couple weeks off. I felt a response was necessary as others glean from our posts and I did not want a misconception to be planted in peoples mind about "stall tests". "stall tests" do not cause problems, simply reveal ones that were there before. Mel
I am sure you are correct for a machine in tip top shape, and I value your opinion. Yet with mine for mostly farm usage I am just hoping I never see the leak from a worn housing with normal use. I really have no idea how much pressure the thing builds in 4th gear with the brake set, but that just seems to be a leak test for my worn out unit. Alrman still thinks I turned the seal backwards, and he may be right because he is normally right and has helped me a bunch... but for now I am 98% sure I turned it the same way it came out.:stirthepot I am sure thankful for the help.:exactly
It sure is nice having the brake working. I know Case gets a mint for that large disc. Does your look like the one in the thread above? This was about my seals leaking, but you can see the related photos. All I needed was some new pads that I got pretty cheap on EBay I think. I wonder if you might find the disc used someplace. It's a thick heavy thing and I think the drive shaft universal has to be disconnected to get the thing on/off the splines. Call the previous owner and see if he took it off and throwed it in the corner... From a safety standpoint I think I would buy the disc new if I had to. I just want to get my alarm to working, because it seems to me that parking brake pads should last forever so long as you don't forget to take it off. If I really tighten mine I find I need to unscrew it a tad so that it's not "dragging" when not in use. I think it's a fine adjustment (handle top screws down) to get the brake to hold when on a hill, but then release fully. My cable may be worn, but I need to actually push down on mine to fully release the pads.
:drinkup I want to add something to this subject on rebuilding the control valve. I have just finished putting in a new foot switch for the large solenoid, and in doing this I had to remove the small front floor plate under the brake pedals. 6 or 8 bolts: not real hard to get out. What I noticed is that this seemed to be a better way to get to the shuttle control valve; especially when trying to get the spring and ball started back on the right side. I just wondered if anyone else used this vs. working just from underneath. I suppose some have lifts but I have to work on dirt in a barn. I was able to see the vent etc on mine and even work on some wiring.
:lmao You're crackin me up bowen - backhoes have buit in "lifts" - :lmao BTW - I would not work under your avatar hoe - unless I was in India with a hi vis vest & hard hat ......... PS - get yourself a piece of old carpet or linoleum / vinyl flooring to lie on - make it comfortable as possible mate!
Ha! Well I do have leaky lift cylinders. I have the kits but no time to install yet. I have another problem now... Remember I replaced the solenoid foor switch and the thumb button. Now with the switch on but not cranked I can HERE the clutch solenoid plunger operate EVERY TIME I push either switch. BUT... when the thing is running and in gear, I stop the machine--push the switch and push the gas.. it's still in gear. (Forward or reverse) It's like the clutch solenoid is not working at all. What could be wrong now?? Below is what I read in the manual. Is this clutch really a clutch or not?
Try removing the solonoid & depress the plunger & give it a couple of sharp taps with a small hammer. It may dislodge the dump valve, if it does not free up, you have to pull the valve again bowen. (have you done that the second time yet? ) As I mentioned on page 3 - there is an internal spool valve that dumps the pressure. If the electrics have not worked for a long time, the valve gets sticky & wont move in & out. When you remove the solonoid & depress the plunger, you should feel the contact with the internal valve, & then depress further. It should make a double clicking noise as you move it in & out. You will need to remove the outer plunger & flush some solvent throgh the ports while working the valve whith a srewdriver, then lube with oil. If it wont free up, then you will need to dismantle the other end of the control valve to get it out.
No 2nd time removal as extra tightening on the solenoid fixed the leak. The end of the valve was real easy to push in, but I never knew there was a 2nd stage at the end on the stroke. I must not really understand the way it works yet. My bad... And the solenoid/dump valve has not been working in many years. On page I may have misunderstood. My actual solenoid is what had oil inside. When you told me to plus the plunger I thought we were talking about the solenoid, but I see now you must have been telling me to depress up in the end of the control valve with the plunger and spring out. I have a small 4oz ballpein hammer that I have never found any use for till now... :bash
I am pretty sure the internal valve is stuck after reading also this. At some point I will take it all back apart. I suppose I will next time diassemble the interal portion of the valve also. Will I possibly need to order a new dump valve, or can these interal part normally be cleaned up and reused? Mine for sure does not have 2 clicks on the external plunger; just real easy to push in and out. The hammer did not work and I'm afraid to peck too hard from fear of something getting damaged or stuck inside
OK here 16 months later I am finally back to working on this problem. I hear the valve clunking every time I push the button but it still moves fwd and reverse. So today I took the large solenoid off and here is what I see with the plunger. (Measurements here are from the threads for the solenoid.) It's sitting out about 24mm (7/8"+) I can easily push it in about 8mm so I am now out 16mm. Then the pressure to push it in becomes clearly harder, but still smooth. I can push it on farther into the shuttle to where I have only ~10mm exposed. So... 2 stages as you say. But, I do NOT hear any "clicking" noise as you describe. Now my question is this. Do I hold it in as far as I can and then tap it in farther with a 4 oz hammer? I actually already tapped it with a soft faced hammer and I could not tell that it broke anything loose so that it went in any further. What might I break if I hit it too hard, except for my finger holding the rascal in?:bash I really dread taking the valve back out because I suppose I need to first order some more new seals... But if this is still your suggestion, I will jump on it. I do have all the oil drained now and supposed to have my new oil cooler tomorrow. Before I never really determined how to disassemble the inner parts of the shaft assembly. I have to wonder if the solenoid is just weak somehow, but you have never mentioned this as a possibility. I sure do wish you lived down the road from me... Now I also have a power steering cylinder that is pouring oil out and I sure do need to be digging up some stumps. Just to restate my basic problem. The push-button nor the new foot switch will put it into neutral.
If you are feeling extra resistance by depressing the plunger past half way, the inner valve should be moving..... I wonder if the inner valve has been out before & maybe put in the wrong way??? I'm not sure if that is even possible or not. With the solenoid off the shuttle, the transmission should not engage if selected - what happens if you start it up & try to drive?
All I know is that it works great otherwise. The only thing I noted was that the little lip seal seemed to fit loose in the groove. (Horizontally, not loose on the shaft) Then I had to REALLY tighten the solenoid to stop it from leaking. Still when I do the warm up - it leaks a tad. My cooler is off so I cannot crank it at the moment. Also I have no fluid. I wish I has already tried this but I thought oil would spray out all over the barn. Maybe I will install the cooler and add the oil, then try this before installing the solenoid. The 1st time I changed the fluid in late 2011 the oil looked nasty as if it really needed changing but I did not see any significant metal or items on the screen. Maybe some small specks. Even this 2nd oil change was still cloudy after only 25 hours of use. And I DID get the oil out of the TC again... So far this time I have only removed the plug, not the bottom pan. I see that Coleman gets $410.80 for a # N13639 valve assy! I think mine did have two of the o-rings...
They are a lot cheaper if you search the aftermarket sources
I am ashamed to post this but I fixed the problem. I decided to ohm the coil out again and noticed the wires looked damaged. The wire was still together but the wires inside was broke. I had only 1/8" or so of wire to work with, and I had to dig out some sealant to even get to this much. So I done my best to soldier this and insulate it, then lastly putting some silicone around it so it maybe lasts at least a short time. But the important part is that with this semi-fixed, the clutch now works fine. It was the first time I had ever seen this part work on the hoe. I wonder where I could fine one of these solenoids for less that $100? I think Case gets about 4X that... This was a stupid mistake on my part. I am sure that last time I crawled under to tighten the solenoid one more time, my wrench cut the wire. For anyone that removes the solenoid, the wires may be up on top and not visible from underneath. You can't hear the solenoid work with the engine running, but mine will energize with just the switch turned on. I can hear it now, plus it DOES put the unit into neutral. My coil has about 2.7 ohms of resistance, so it pulls almost 5 amps... pretty hard on that little push-button. Thanks for all the help. :notworthy
Good news! That coil can be dismantled, if you want/need to do a better repair job. Just behind each flat of the hex, there is a rivet which will need to be drilled out. Then separate the hex from the body. there is a plunger & spring, then remove the windings from the body. Resolder the wires & assemble. Should not be much of a problem for a man of your talent. Replace the rivets with some small pieces of welding rod & pein them into place.
All of them? I did not see any when I was studying how to get it apart. I will look closer at mine. The rear does have a ring that is bent/crimped on. (This picture was made after I painted it and before I cut the wire ) - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Being that this thread has been viewed over 9600 times I want to note this. Attempting to move the hoe with the solenoid off and underneath pushing in that plunger seems really dangerous to me. In theory if it's working I understand the thing should not move, unless the plunger is pushed in. But if you push it in to try the valve and it does move you better have a helper on top and prepared for this. Hoe off the ground, whatever. Also with the solenoid off the linkage will be loose, and just working the lever might NOT stop the movement. The solenoid actually holds the linkage in place. So this is scary to me as I normally work alone and I want to caution anyone else reading this thread in the future.
The nut has to come off to do the repair. Every one I have ever seen has the rivets, clean the paint & see what you find. They are right in the middle of the flats.
Are you not telling us about something that happened??
No, no...:drinkup I just envisioned the thing running over me, then busting the barn door down, then easing on to end up in the neighbors living room. That transaxle sure does look big to me when I am under there... And besides you have already warned me about my "avatar" hoe, and to be careful underneath it. Remember I am used to working on lawn mowers, so all these HUGE wrenches, sledge hammers, and 6 feet cheater bars are new to me.
hi i have a 428c back hoe with power shift and do not have any forward of reverse gears i have checked the fuse and it is ok and have used a solenoid tester and there is no power at the solenoid,s on the gear box could there be a short some where your help would be very grateful
If you have this same setup the large clutch solenoid is energized to work the clutch. If you are not getting 12V to the solenoid it should move as normal so this is not the problem. You can unplug the connector to the solenoid if you want to be sure. I do not know if they can mechanically stick in the energized position, but I doubt it. There is a pretty strong spring inside. My Case 580SE has a floor switch plus the button on the bucket control that works the solenoid. Either switch energizes that large solenoid. And it draws 4 or 5 amps of current.
580 ck changed starter with rebuilt and after 10 min running noticed oil from starter.......removed starter and found oil in bell housing at bottom of starter bottom bolt.....help
Thanks Bowen, I have a 580c with shuttle problems, like jumping in and out of pulling. I got some ideas were to start troubleshooting.
If you have a pre C series 580 with power shuttle that is completely normal as they have a wet bell housing and require a sealed starter and a starter gasket
Shuttle fluid was low. Learning more every day