I need some advice on tongue weights. I have a Rogers tilt deck that has 18 feet of flat deck and about 9 feet of gooseneck. My loaded vehicle pretty much fills the deck and it just tilts over and I can't move it forward anymore. The problem is that I have very little weight on the 5th wheel. The loaded vehicle weighs about 35,000 pounds and the trailer weighs about 12,000 pounds and is rated at 50,000 pounds, so no problem there. The loaded vehicle sits pretty much straight over the tandem duals and it cannot be moved forward at all. Because of this situation, there is virtually no weight on the 5th wheel and hence, no weight to give the tractor any traction. The wheels spin, and I get no braking help from the tractor. I suspect that this trailer is designed to haul a track hoe with a heavy arm, resting out on the goose neck. How can I best remedy this situation? I can put weight on the goose neck but that will affect how the deck tilts. I can put tail weights on the tractor but that limits the use to that tractor only. If I add the weight, does that affect the handling going down the road? Thanks for the help in advance. Dirtmaster
Dirtmaster, I think the first thing I would try would be to load the Armored veh on backwards. You will probably find that adds a little weight to the drive axles, or moves some of the weight forward. If that doesn't move enough weight forward, try puttin a piece of dunnage, oak works fine/best, on the deck of the trailer just ahead of the tracks about 6" before the underside contacts the gooseneck, and driving the veh onto the wood. You need to determine how much clearance you need to get over the goose neck, and put that thickness of wood down to drive onto. That should get you over the gooseneck. Also, there is a "breakover point" on that unit. You probably should determine exactly where that is, and don't go past that point on the wood dunnage that you will drive/back onto. If ya do, you may high center on the gooseneck, spin the wood out when trying to go forward, and in general, have a mess on your hands It won't take much to transfer the weight you need forward. I think you may find that loading it the opposite direction will help. Moving it like you describe in your post can put you in dire straits. Prime candidate for a jack knife in a panic stop situation. Also, I would guess from the info you gave, that you may be over weight on the trailer tandem. 34K is all that's allowed per tandem. You might want to find a scale locally and spend a bit of money there figuring out where the unit needs to set to be legal for weight before you end up paying the state to show you. With such a short trailer it will take a bit to move the weight forward. Good luck and be careful. Hope this helps.
I'm pretty sure the center of gravity is somewhat forward of center but haven't actually tested that theory. If true, going on backwards would worsen the problem, of course. Putting a hunk of wood up there to get up over the gooseneck might work. I'll probably try that. I have not taken it anywhere but slowly in the local neighborhood, for safety reasons. Thanks for your help.
you need a longer trailer. period!
I think you will find the center of gravity is just behind the 3rd/center wheel. Unload it, and while on level ground, drive it onto a piece of dunnage placed crossways of the tracks. When it balances, you'll have the CG. The only thing that should affect that afterward would be more or less fuel, and that would be miniscule probably. As qball said, a longer trailer would be beneficial,and you may find that you can't get the weight legal on that trailer. It'll be tough. If ya measure halfway between the tractor tandem and the trailer tandem, about 1foot closer to the trilaer tandem is where your CG should be to equal the weight out. It's not likely you will be ablt to get it to equal, but you may be able to get the weight down to 34K or under on the trailer tandem. Again, the only way to know that will be to take it to a local scale and weigh it, and then attempt to adjust the weight accordingly.
qball has the best solution but I'm with riganddig if you want to use this trailer. I'm guessing the center of gravity on this thing is about the 3 axle from the rear. back it on and it looks like you can straddle the gooseneck. Get the 3rd axle ahead of the first tandem and it should handle much better. (Looks like riganddig and I were typing at the same time ) Rolled my tractor trailer and dozer across the local scrapyard scale this afternoon (they are closed but you can drive across the scale and read the readout on the wall ). Dozer only weighs 11,000 lbs. I have too much trailer but I figure you can't have too much
Go to the "Your Trailer Pictures Wanted" thread, page 10. Scroll down and Nick has a picture of an excavator posted there with the dunnage under the forward end. Looks like he needed to get over the gooseneck a bit too. Not sure why but it was either to transfer weight or get his heighth down, or both. That'll give ya an idea of what you need to do on your load. Also, with the barrel facing forward, it possibly may be to high. Sure wouldn't want to see that unit with a bent barrel.
Think we were at that Rail dude's dad. And as you said, I didn't think ya could have to much trailer
How often would a guy transport a thing like that,......do you have any shells for it? but yeah i am with them too, bolt some 6' long timber's (i have no idea what the hell a "dunnage" is,....kinda sounds like a terd, lol) to the trailer and run that thing on forward. i am guessing you have tried backwards or spinning the gun around etc.? Pj
Thanks for the tips, guys. We have yet to do the center of gravity thing with a log, but do plan on it. One problem is that we have a suspension system and it kinda folds around obstacles, unlike a construction vehicle, which is designed to loosen kidneys and dentures. We take it out a few times a year to parades, air shows, and the like. No, I don't have any shells for it, either. It's screwed up to federal specs. If we backed it on and swung the gun around, I could use it as a headrest in the truck cab, probably. Also, it needs to be transported with the gun in the locked position for mechanical reasons. One option is to extend the lower frame of the trailer by ten feet and add some decking to match the lengthening. By rough calculations, that would add about 13,000 pounds to the 5th wheel point, assuming we drive up the tilt, whump down (there are shocks to dampen the whump) and then move forward. Is 13,000 pounds going to be enough or should I just sell this one to someone that can use it properly with like a track hoe and a heavy arm/bucket and get something else? What I'd really like to have is a folding gooseneck trailer. Thanks again for the tips, guys.
5th wheel weight problem:no traction: That's odd... that machine looks to have front drive, at least according to the sprockets. Either that, or it is on backwards... which doesn't look right either, according to the lights, or what looks like lights. Do some military tracked machines drive from the front??... OCR
OCR, Yes, some of them do. Dependson which end the engine and trans are in. I know that from watchin Gunny, on the History channel .
Yes, it has the engine and tranny up in the front left. Drives on the right, being a British thing (s'cuse me whilst I take a sip of tea...). There isn't much weight in the rear, although there is more shell area. I'm going to guess that lengthening the under-frame and adding some deck up front that doesn't tilt is going to be the solution. I'm mystified as to what this trailer was designed for, now. It would seem that the only proper load would be one that has some heavy thing extending out forward over the gooseneck, so that there is weight on the 5th wheel. Ideas??
I'm gonna go with front engine trackloaders, if there was ever a frontend heavy machine that would be it.
That makes sense. Boy, this trailer is a dream to drive around, being so short. I pulled through a McDonald's parking lot with it and did a corner or two in there. Nothing like driving down the road dragging a 50 foot snake, trying to keep off of people's toes on street corners. It only has 500 original miles on it, believe it or not. I'd be happy to swap it to someone that can use this style for something more appropriate to my needs.
There was a time around here that the paving contractors would use a similar type trailer. They'd back the paver on and put a big square combo water/fuel tank on the goose neck. They've pretty much switched to the Landoll type trailer, easier to get the paver and rollers on that type trailer.
Rigandig,I have to load that way for weight and for traction.I think short of a new trailer.I would try it your way also.You would be suprised how little traction you get going uphill if you dont have load far enough forward.and yeah a little piece of dunnage under the ramp helps get over the gooseneck to get closer.
You have a very short, heavy duty trailer but, with drawbacks also. Everything you load on this type of trailer has to have the heaviest part forward up next to the gooseneck. You have to decide this before you load any equipment on this short trailer. This trailer has a huge GVWR and it will need to have plating welded to the front deck to offset load issues. Anybody think that his tires just may not have the right tread for good traction? Every little thing contributes to loss of traction. If you have plenty of GVWR on the trailer, I'd weld the plate on the front gooseneck deck and not add weight to the tractor itself. Take the tractor off the trailer and get on a dirt road up hill take off and see if the tractor breaks loose from traction real easily then you may have tire treads that just don't grip. I've seen guys change the tires and never have another problem. Short trailer as shown are always nice to pull hard the distribute the load weight. Good Luck
Short, stubby trailer load distribution problem Thanks for the tips. I need to do something because it not only loses traction, but the weight is wrong for a sudden stop. I need weight on the 5th wheel plate in order to get my tractor tandem duals to stop the load. I am reluctant to put a little ramp on the front of the bed to get the tank up over the gooseneck because that raises my center of gravity. I'm considering lengthening the underframe by 10 feet so that after loading and tipping back down flat, I'd drive 10 feet forward onto some new decking that was affixed to the front gooseneck section. That would put something like 15,000 pounds onto the 5th wheel plate. It's still tail-heavy, though. Would that work?
First I would do a seesaw test as advised by Rigandig ( I appreciate its difficult with that running gear) which will give you a better idea of the tipping point. I would also like to see it loaded the other way around and the barrel out the back, you can do this on your seesaw test, purely out of curiosity. I think 10feet will be way too much length addition, I'll have a pint of beer that 4 feet more forward will make one hell of a difference.
I am wondering about the "Bridge law" - I am sure rig or frank could explain this better than I but you may find the trailer is rated for the weight , but not legal to carry its rated load- I know there is a grandfather clause for some short trailers , but i do not know if manufacture date enters into it or if it is just certain lengths of trail. also if I read you correctly you have a gross trl./tank weight of 47000 with most being on trailer- I do not think the spacing is right for you to get 20000 on those axles Most trailers of that type are just made of common structural steel. My advice would be to take to a Trailer shop ( there is usually a company around that builds trailer dumps ,lowbeds, trk bodies etc. ) Ask them about lengthen it = if you had all stripped and ready and just hired them to do trailer frame it would probably not be a lot of money
I did check with a local place, and their quote made me spit out my coffee. Near fell offa my horse, too. What I really need is some info on the proper weight distribution and what the effect of improper weight distribution is. One issue is a panic stop. The tractor tandem duals will act as the front tires in a sudden stop. Weight will shift up there. Weight will lighten off of the trailer duals. How much is the question. I can calculate the increased loading by assuming a G-force deceleration. I can also stuff some dunnage up front and climb up a bit over the gooseneck, but I'm concerned about the vertical height of the center of gravity. The deck is 43 inches up already. The CG is likely about 30 inches off the ground in the front. The rear would be higher, but the dunnage won't lift the rear end. From the pictures of that track hoe tilted up on dunnage, my load is trivial. Even still, not looking forward to spots in my shorts on corners. The wheel loading for bridge calculations is irrelevant, due to a grandfather clause. I can prove that the trailer was in service in this state prior to enactment of the bridge regulation. No problem, there. Anyone know of a source of trailer design equations? Surely the manufacturers are going by some sort of book that speaks to load distribution for handling safety. There are rules for axle loading, but I'm more concerned with dynamic handling. Not trying to hot rod the rig. Just trying to make sure I end up with a rig that doesn't fishtail in a panic stop and also that I have sufficient weight to not lose traction on dirt hills. Thanks!
I think your making a lot more out of this traction problem than needed. Think about doing this; Go to a metal salvage yard get them to loan you a big steel or wood box, have them fill the box with cut up railroad rail material or similar heavy iron, go over their scales and bring the weight up on your tractor drive tires to just under maximum weight listed on the tires of the tractor. Chain down the box good and go for a drive up hills, around corners, dirt hills and find a safe place to do a hard brake stop. (Make sure you've chained to box on good). If your performance and traction greatly improve with this weight on the fifth wheel area, then go back to the metal salvage yard and have them help find a casting or something as a single load you can chain down and maybe weld also to the plate above the fifth wheel area. You will be adding offsetting weight to the traction area only. You'll not have to drive the unit any higher up onto the front yoke or fifth wheel area and get into bridge height problems. You just need traction and we all pretty much agree that it will take weight over the rear tractor tires. Remember if you do this cure do-not exceed the tires weight listed on the rubber. Two tires will give you 2x the weight Example: One tire at 80 lbs will handle 3200# times two drive tires = 6400# total on both tires. Take the carrier loaded to the metal salvage yard to weight on the scales before you start loading the box up with weight.
I appreciate the thought, but there are a couple of problems with doing that. One; I haul it with an old Screaming Jimmy with only 318 hp and it's already slow. Two; if I add weight anywhere on this trailer, it affects the ability to tilt it do load it. The bed pivots between the tires, plus a second pivot in front of the front tires about a couple of feet. As it tilts down in back, the gooseneck also tilts down in front. Any weight I add will need to be exactly balanced fore and aft of the kingpin, which is possible to do of course. I think adding weight will surely cure the traction problem, but to add enough weight to put half the towed weight onto the 5th wheel would necessitate a huge weight. Trailer and tank are already right about 50,000 pounds with virtually no weight on the 5th wheel. By lengthening ($$$) the underframe 10 feet, I calculated that I'd be raising the 5th wheel weight to about 13000 to 15000 pounds, which is still nowhere near 50% of the towed weight.
I think your way off on the tongue weight having to be 50% of the 50,000#. My 7,500# trailer only has 800# tongue weight which is plenty. You cannot exceed what is on the rubber on the tires of the tractor. So again if the tires say 3,200 lbs at 65 lbs. of air pressure then you can only put 3,200# X 4 tires = 12,800 lbs. on those four rear tires. Remember that exceeding this weight is more unsafe than any other thing, a blowout when going down the road could kill you and others out there. Get back to me on what the weight at max air is on the side of the tires of the tractor. Also if your going to add ten feet to the trailer, it would be time consuming, quite expensive, and cheaper to find another used trailer and sell this one. The unit can go up ramps instead of having a tilt trailer!
I agree, 50% is way too much, which is one reason I bet a pint of beer a few posts back that a 4' extension on that trailer would be more than enough to get the weight on the pin that you need. Have you tried to do the pivot test that rigandig suggested. on edit, you might have miss read Safety Mgmt post as he is talking about adding weight to the puller NOT the pulled. You then reply about the problems with the tilting of the trailer.
Have you ever tried scaling it loaded and then flipping it and rescaling.Those short trailers are pain to balance. How much does that thing weigh. I think the suggestion about ramping it up iis goint help, can you reposition the fifth wheel and still have the swing you need. I always had sliders on my tractors and ones that I drove.
I cant tell by looking but somehow i think that thind is tail haeavy with the turret and armor it.
Hiya guys, I have not had a chance to weigh it, but I do have a portable scale. The trailer is not here right now, anyway. The figure of 50% load on the front end is one that various seasoned truckers have given me. I'm looking for an authoritative book where such weight distribution is discussed formally. My tractor is a Freightliner cabover and is rated for 80,000 pounds. The load vehicle weighs 39000 pounds, the trailer weighs 12000. Tractor is about 16000. Tires are 11.00-24.5 and run at 100psi. In a sudden braked stop, I want to make sure the whole shebang stays straight. If the bulk of the weight is on the wheels directly under the load, I'm depending on the fairly light truck to stay straight. Without much gooseneck weight, I have very little traction. I just don't know what I really need up there for weight, and I'm very reluctant to just try something.Too dangerous to be guessing.
Put a couple of 55 gal drums on the tongue, fill them with water. Instant ballast, you can dump it anywhere. Just secure the drums!
The way to make sure you stay straight is to ensure that your trailer brakes are performing above and beyond the call of duty. That way the maximum weight is stopping the best, and holding back the puller, not trying to be stopped by the puller which is when you get into major dramas. Many many years ago a small country plant company I worked for (17yrs old ) used to move their IH B100 drotts and IH BTD8 dozers on a twin axle trailer behind a Fordson powermajor 4 wheel drive tractor, that puller had no hope in hell of stopping or holding that load on a steady let alone steep grade never mind in an emergency stop using the tractors own brakes. It was rigged with an an air operated lever on the offside mudguard ( no cab or roll bar back then ) which worked the trailer brakes. The biggest fear if you had to stop in a hurry was having a bucket or blade hit you in the neck ..........Chains, doh! I knew there was something missing with those loads :Banghead Oh! to be young, stupid and immoral, oops! meant immortal ( we all thought we were are at that age..........didn't we ) :drinkup
Trailer load dynamics Here is what I've learned from several truckers with decades of staying alive behind the wheel. The combination of truck and trailer can be viewed as one vehicle, that being the heavy trailer. The rear wheels of that vehicle are comprised of the rear tandem duals. The front wheels of that vehicle are the tandem duals of the tractor. The only thing the tractor does is aim it straight and provide a pulling force. In fact, my old 1970 tractor has no front brakes at all and never had them from the factory. Weren't required back then, nor were they desired by everyone. So now we have a heavy vehicle with tandem duals on each end. In a sudden stop, the wheels apply a braking torque, which translates to a braking force at the tire/road interface. The center of gravity is up above the road by roughly 6 feet. As braking force is applied at the ground level, the center of gravity (CG) keeps going forward in an attempt to rotate about the wheel/road point. That rotation lifts weight off of the rear tires and applies it to the front tires. The forward/aft position of the CG is well aft of the front wheels, so the downward force of the CG is lessened by the long moment arm of the forward portion of the trailer. I need lots of downward force on the 5th wheel plate to insure that the front of the trailer does not slide sideways, which would be a jack-knife. Once the front tandem duals start to slide, the coefficient of friction is far less and only gets worse. What I cannot find is any engineering data on load distribution for dynamic stability of a trailer. I may create a computer model of a simple trailer and load, and see if I can get it analyzed in SolidWorks. Failing that, I'll try to model a simplistic version, assuming a deceleration due to a rapid stop. Alternatively, I could roll down the window, spit out a load of 'chaw' , and say " hell, let's just try it!". Any mechanical engineers out there that can weigh in on this? Thanks.
You are correct the explanation was a bit over my redneck enginering degree. But the main problem is load placement and trailer lenght. When I pulled flatbed it was 48' spread with a shaker century tractor. I could scale a 50,000 coil if it was placed right If i palced lighter coilers incorrectly I could still be legal on my axle weights but my ride sucked and in any wet road conditions I would be working the crap out of the trolley brake. The deisn flaw is the short trailer in your case. Do you have a trolley on yours. I am assuming that all the brakes are in top shape. You can engineer anything to death but you have had suggestions from flatbeders and wide high and heavy guys the methos may be a little differnt but the basic function is to put more weight on the 5th wheel. They did not require front brakes on older tractors in order to avoid front wheel slides but most had tolley brakes and many an old timer's seat had to be recoverd after he sucked it up as he was yanking on that trolley to get the trailer straight.
Just a thought but if you know the weights of everthing one of the guys might have a loading programing> I know the have programs for this some of our expert dispatcher used to use them to tell use how to load, not that we listened :bash
Why don't you contact Chaz Murray? He posts on here and has a trailer manufacturing company in California. I am sure he can steer you in the right direction.
I like the tank Dirtmaster,There are a few jobs I'v done in the past that a tank would have came in handy.That is a short tilt deck Rodgers trailer.I would experiment with ramps on the trailer and park the tank up on the neck of the trailer closer to the fithwheel.Looking at the picture on your first post you only need 6 or 8 inches to clear the neck on the trailer from the belly of the tank.Moving the tank forward 4 or 5 feet will make a huge difference in the wieght on the truck as other members have said.Dont worry about it getting to high on the center of gravity.That tank sets pretty low to start with and it will just be the front of the tank on the neck of the lowboy.It's not any different then when we put the blade of a dozer up on the neak of the trailer and they pull fine.Good luck with it.
Thanks for the tips. I do have a portable truck scale I can use. It's like a briefcase. I've even gone to the trouble of calibrating it against a known good, certified truck scale. I do plan on weighing every wheel with and without the tank. From that, I can calculate the loading on each wheel as I vary the positioning of the tank. I assume I will be able to find a spot where it works, but the whole shebang is still going to be kinda short. So long as it's safe, shorter is better for me. The front end is where the engine, steering gear, and tranny are located, so it's a little nose heavy. Not much, but some. You can feel it in turns. A friend borrowed this trailer to haul a logging skidder and it worked fine. In that case, he had the blade up on the gooseneck. Seemed to make a perceptible difference.
Tell us more about the tank Dirtmaster Thats pretty cool Dirtmaster.I keep calling it a tank but it looks like a smaller version of an M-109 howitzer.My dad ,"seen unchaining the 16-b dozer in the picture" , was a gunner on an M-109 mobile howizer in Vietnam.He is no stanger to heavy equipment.He tolled me the M-109 had the detroit diesel in the front & drove from the front sprockets like your tank.Also had rear ground spades that dug in like outriggers when firing and an allison auto tranny in it.Keep us posted Dirtmaster.
Very perceptive of you. The 'tank' is actually a self propelled howitzer, very much like the M109 your dad served on in Vietnam. Ours is British, and called an Abbot. It's a kissing cousin of the US M108, which was the little brother to the M109. The M108 was a 105mm, as is the Abbot. They fired broadside instead of straight forward because the concussion of the gun would blow out the headlights. Didn't do wonders for the driver, either. Well actually, the driver was never up in his spot while firing. He was helping feed ammo to the loader guy in back. Shooting specs are: 50 pound round, 10.5 mile range. The barrel on this one has been demilled or deactivated or just plain screwed up to federal specs. Look up British Abbot FV433 on Google to see full specs. Wish I could find a removable gooseneck or a folding gooseneck trailer that I could afford. It gets a little scary crawling up a stepdeck with virtually no vision and narrow tracks. Construction vehicles have much wider tracks than this unit. I have to be dead on accurate to load onto a 102" trailer. If I miss even a little, I go over the side. Been there; done that. Prefer not to do that again
Thanks for the information Dirtmaster.Your Abbot howitzer would make an interesting thread just by itself.Cool!
Put a lazy axle on the back of the tractor and build a tray body for it to take the machine . Less rego , easier to park at shows and just easier all round than pulling the trailer .
dirtmaster, if you have a movable fifth wheel maybe try sliding it back so it is between the axles and see if that helps it seems to help a lot with the short dumps we pull.
Huh? Lazy axle? I'm pretty new to trucking. Not sure what you said, there. On moving the 5th wheel, it's currently positioned slightly forward of the middle point of the truck's tandem duals. Isn't that where it's supposed to be? I can move it backwards a little but not much forward. Thanks.
Sorry mate , it's just the addition of a non driven (lazy) axle to give more carrying capacity and a longer chassis . I was meaning , if you did this you could get rid of the trailer and carry the machine on the back of the tractor/truck . All you would need is a tray body to carry it on . The body could be removable if you still needed to pull a trailer . In Australia , we get 20 tonne/ton on the tri and 6 on the steer =26 tonne . Deduct the 9 tonne/ton the truck would then weigh , leaves you with 17 tonne payload .
Ah, ok. That makes sense. I'd feel a little nervous tearing down the road with a tank only a couple of feet behind my head. Not sure it would make much difference in a wreck but with a lowboy, my life expectancy would increase by several milliseconds, at least...... I did some calculations on weight distribution and found that if I extend the lower frame of the trailer by 10 feet and get the tank forward by that much, the percentage of my truck/trailer/tank lashup that is on the truck's tandem duals only goes up to 31%. I found a US Military manual on how to distribute loads on truck/trailers and they spec it to be 40%. 40% on the rear of the trailer, 40% on the truck tandem duals, and 20% on the truck front tires. I need a different trailer, I think. Mine would work fine for someone with a heavy front, like a dozer with a big blade that could rest up on the gooseneck. It is really nice to tow around, being so short. Only 16 feet from the 5th wheel to the center of the trailer tires. U-turns are a piece of cake.
Hi, Do you still have this trailer? I might be interested in buying it. Thanks Gabe
Hi, I hope you recieve this message - i'm interested in your trailer, but i dont think you are receiving my post. I just became a member and note sure if i'm posting correctly. Gabe
Hi, Gabe. You're doing the posting fine. I just don't check in here very often right now. You can get a hold of me on email reallyrainyweather at hotmail.com I still have the trailer and it needs a good home. Thanks. Awaiting your email.
I know I am a little late in this conversation, but that never stopped me before! Load+Trailer= ~ 50,000 Maximum Legal weight on Tandem Set = 34,000 Minimum tongue weight for trailer to be legal = 16,000 From looking at the picture, I am guessing the load was almost exactly centered over the trailer tandems, meaning there was no weight added to the truck and that you have close to 50,000 on the rear axles (which is likely exceeding the tire sidewall ratings as well). Any doubts would be removed by weighing the trailer axles, and then finding out how much weight needed to be transfered forward to reach 34,000. I am an "expert" on this subject and the math involved because I just went through it with a 47,000# paver on a tag-trailer (~50,000 combined) behind a 10-wheeler with a walking beam rear tandem axle. For years they hauled it with the weight mostly on the trailer axles (42,000), exceeding the ~40,000 tire rating as well as the 34,000 axle limits. The math said I might be able to pull it forward enough to put 16,000 on the hitch (rated at 18,000...) and be legal. Went to the nearby quarry scales and moved it. The walking beam pivot point was so far from the hitch, it transfered about 5,000 off the front axle onto the rear making the rear truck tandems overweight! Maybe if it wasn't a Mack and had air-bags or something it would have worked. Also it removed steer weight so when I was turning on gravel and gave it some go-pedal, the front end picked up and went straight... In any case, something bigger will have to haul it, or they need to get me a 3-axle tag. (haven't told the boss yet, waiting for him to be in a good mood so I can kill it...) :drinkup