Its my turn to post up some pictures of my '68 580CK and show progress in this thread of my engine removal, major overhaul and replacement. While its apart, I am hoping to fix a couple of other issues and repaint the various pieces during reassembly. This will take place over some months due to the location of the machine and my ability to support the anticipated expense. While its not always prudent to put a substantial amount of effort and cost into 40+ year old equipment, I am the third owner and have had this one for over 25 yrs. Its been very useful at my cottage property on a small island in the Salish Sea (formerly Georgia Straight) off Vancouver Island. The time has finally come to do right by this workhorse and share the journey with those who frequent this board. I will also be seeking advice and clarification when issues come up, which I can guarantee there will be at least a few. Thanks for coming along on the ride....
The Challenge The first order of business is to try to get it started and pick up the hoe and loader. Failing that, it will be done the hard way. The work will take place in the shop shown in the attached picture. Push, Pull or Drag if its not running. Let the fun begin...
Wow jusk i like that cab on yours i have seen some that are so big and ugly there almost cute but yours just fits i really dont want a cab on mine but have been looking at the rops for mine if i was to do a cab now that i have seen yours i would look for one just like that i know its a lot of work but the rewards are worth it
Xpack, Its a Simms cab and was original equipment. In my rather damp climate, its nice to have although I should be parking it in the big shed rather than outside, but my junk is always in the way.
Im keeping my fingers crossed you get her running so you can move it and you can bet im going to follow your project i see one of your loader arms looks like it has been welded on must be a week point on them as mine and my neighbors b are welded to,My neighbors b has the 4in1 bucket (clamshell) and the more i think about it that could be very handy.
There is an issue that has been discussed here before regarding rolling the bucket back and lifting at the same time, which damages the loader arm pivots. If you notice, my machine has the levelling cylinder removed, as before I got it, it kept breaking the eye off the cylinder rod. I have it repaired but never reinstalled it. There is some relationship between the cracked right hand loader arm, rolling the bucket and the levelling cylinder. Once I get that far, mine will go back on. If I could find an undamaged loader arm assembly, I would consider replacing it but for now its ok. A 4in1 is only in my dreams as in later years, I am working alone and climbing off and on to chain logs and boulders gets a little old. The CK had the option, per the parts book but I have never seen one. Forks are another work saver. I have a thumb setup that will eventually be installed on the backhoe but for now its all sitting on the shop floor waiting for me to make up a few pins and figure out the related hydraulics. Tomorrow, I head into town to pick up my grandson and together over the next couple of days, I expect to get it running. He only has a few days here before going back to camp over Christmas so we will try to do as much as possible, including a visit and early Christmas dinner together.
Here you can see someone patched a piece on both sides but they did a pretty good job of doing it i will continue to use mine like this i just watch for new cracks.I had also been lurking on this sight reading a lot of different things about these and i do remember reading about that as well.Sounds like we use these or about the same thing logs boulders and your right it gets old jumping on and off in a mud hole to hook up chains ect...im also thinking pretty hard on a clamshell for mine if i can find one reasonable.Is the thumb your going to put on yours mechanical or hyd.??? I have also thought about doing that down the road i even seen on you tube where a guy has built a log splitter that you remove the bucket and put on a attachment and you split logs its not the type with a i beam but its almost like a thumb setup and he sells the for like $2500.00 .Enjoy the visit with your grandson sounds like some good bonding time!!!
Looking forward to seeing your progress.
Well, last night and today we are getting another storm, the latest in a series that is blasting us every few days. After a long dry summer, we are making up for it and snow is on the mountains again. Over the years, I had a good neighbour out here on the island and we worked well together as a team but life moves on and so did he. The thumb that I am building up will be hydraulic. I like the ability that a 'progressive' thumb has when reaching out and rolling the digging bucket. Unless I can find a valve with the extra spool, I will probably use electric valves and some kind of proportioning. My hydraulics guy is pretty smart and has taken an interest in my idea. His ideas and my money will solve pretty much anything. I have the links and jaws already cut out of 1" material and when I get back to it, will make plywood patterns to play with the geometry for pin locations. Every time I think that we'll get on with it, something else comes up to push the thumb project further down the list. My grandson has always been a big help, even when he was little and had a big part in the construction of both the buildings that show in my pictures. Unfortunately, they grow up and he doesn't get out here much anymore. I have a list of stuff we'll do while he's here and if the weather settles down, we'll get out to the tractor. Thanks for checking in.
JuskAtl......I agree....I like that old cab....definately protects you from swinging tree limbs and keeps the elements off you and the dash gauges, seat, etc. Also has plenty of air flow.
Juskatla.....You mentioned forks for your bucket. I just bought these for about $250 (including freight), and am very happy with them.....super strong, and they mount onto the loader bucket real quick. I like the middle brace that keeps them more stable, and you can attach chains and turnbuckles if you want to really lock them in place. I should have bought a pair of these years ago.
When I read the post about the forks, I said to myself, what in the world would you need forks for, on a backhoe..?? NOW I KNOW.. that is slicker that owl snot..!! Then I got to thinkin'.. that would work perfectly to lift out the floor in my burnt up shop.. and just tip it into the dumpster.. rather than trying to cut it up into manageable pieces to fit in the bucket.. OR.. smashing it with the hoe and THEN scooping it with the bucket.. and the log lift is a great idea.. you can cut it off the ground and save some serious money and time in chain replacement/repair.. Not to mention.. the pesky neighbor who parks his car in your driveway.. just scoop it right thu the windows and she's moved.. lol If its not to much trouble, could you send me a PM with the info on the forks..?? Thanks
The PumpGuySC.......Hey.....you got me laughing good with the "slicker than owl not" comment.......Hilarious.....the laughing helps me digest my dinner. Yep.....I thought of the added feature of picking up cars that are in my way or chasing trespassers who cant read the "No Trespassing" signs. I was going to make my own forks, but found these high quality ones for only $250......was well worth it. I will post my source here in case some others have interest: Titan Clamp on Heavy Duty Pallet Forks and adjustable Stabilizer Bar for loaders......$262/free shipping. I ordered on Amazon, and the link to the forks is: http://www.amazon.com/Titan-Pallet-..._UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=0ZZFSXFN8NMX1PY6CS7F Capacity on these is 4000 lbs. I think there is a size larger with a capacity of maybe 7500 lbs. It is also neat that you can take the rubber boots off the back shoulders and slide 2x4s into the metal, and that makes a nice straight back rest if your moving alot of lumber or what-not.
Juskatla hows your storm doing.Havent heard from you so thought i would say hey.If that storm is still getting it over there tie a sheet on that old girl and sail her into your shop.:woohoo
Xpac.......Hey, the sails might work so well, that Juskatla would be "up, up, up, and away", and he may not land that rig until he skeedaddles all the way from the Pacific coast to your place in Michigan. But, you did want someone to help experiment on the orange painting. :lmaoHeavyEquipmentForums
thepumpguysc......hey, these forks are "slicker than owl snot"......great for moving piles of brush to a main burn pile: Seems to hold together better when I smash it down with the forks, and then scoop the pile up.
Try that without forks and you will have lots of dirt mixed in from just trying to beat it in your bucket, these tractors are priceless !!!! somebody better get out the beer and brats i see a fire coming !!!
Yea man.......this klepomaniac has matches in all pockets, a couple gallons of foul diesel, and is drewling and frothing at the mouth to set the huge brush pile ablaze (what you see in the pic times 50). Im wondering if it will show up on satellite if I burn after dark.
We had a set of forks just like that to lift pallets of 4 inch pvc pipe . Worked well . The sad part was we lifted a skid of bagged cement and sprung the loader bucket . I think it happened while the machine was in travel and started bouncing . . Our new forks are attached at the top of the loader bucket and supported by the complete bottom of the loader bucket , much stronger .
BillS........Wow.....I wonder how much that skid of cement weighed. When you say "sprung" the loader bucket, do you mean the weight bent the lower portion of the loader bucket where the forks clamp on, or did the hydraulic cylinders give out? I would like to see a pic of your new set-up, as I cant quite visualize having it attached at the top of the loader bucket. The trick is learning how to know when those forks are level and almost on the ground, as you cant see them from the drivers seat. The loader control handle has that little rod that pokes in/out, and for mine that little rod needs to be poking thru about 1/8". In this pic, you can see the small rod to the left of the bolt with several new washers under it: Is there another way to know when the bucket/forks are level?
68 if you look just above the right dump cylinder and yea you gotta look close in this pic you will see a piece of metal bent over that has the tip painted (faded) orange this piece lines up with another piece on the loader frame and that is supposed to represent level.If this pic dont give you enough let me know and i will get you a good one.What happened to juskatas???
Xpac.......Ok, so you are referring to the metal pieces which are hiding the left headlight in this pic?: I will have to put her at level, and see how these are lining up.....I just never have paid attention to them before. If I find a level spot on it, I will paint it orange and have a level guide. Amazing.....all these years and I never paid attention to it.
yep thats it
bent the bottom of the bucket
Bill.........how much weight did you have on her to bend the bucket? Those forks must be the larger 7500 lb capacity ones?
Its not so much of the weight that was the problem . It is the way the forks are clamped to the bottom of the loader bucket .
Bill....Yea, I was kinda thinking that another layer of 1/4" steel welded to the bottom of the bucket would make it more rigid for those megga loads. But then I might blow a cylinder, snap a tie rod, or pop a tire.
The problem isn't anything that a piece of flat plate can really fix. The problem is that the forks are clamped to the front edge where the plate is laid flat and all of the weight is on the weak axis of the material. Once you hang the forks from the top and the bottom rests in front of the cutting edge, then the load is pressing against the strong axis of the cutting edge.
I just went out and looked at mine. Sure as heck they are there and have faded orange paint on them. I hadn't even noticed them before.
Actually you might want to consider setting the bucket with a 5 degree down tilt to put the bucket into a slight cutting position, that is the way units were to be adjusted with the automatic return to dig. If flat it will just ride along with no cutting action. Your return to dig seems to be in place, where does it position the bucket when used?
Melben.....good idea with the 5 degre down tilt. I will have to check to be exact as to where the "return to dig" leaves the bucket.
Walker.....OK, now I follow you......hanging the forks from the top is the best way to handle loads. I will have to do my best to not lift logs from the tips......but to go all the way to the bucket end of the forks before lifting.
Love seeing these old 580CKs get restored. I'm the Parts Manager at a Case Construction Dealership in KY and get lots of calls on them. Good luck and I look forward to seeing more pictures.
PNelson......Good to hear others enjoying our resto work on these old CKs. Maybe you could leave your number in case we need parts....maybe you can locate some hard-to-get items?
Maybe paint 2 marks 1 for loading dirt with 5 deg and other for forks at level ???
I'd be glad to help. I'm at Wilson Equipment in Louisville. 502-589-9901, ask for Paul
Thanks Paul.......will put you down as a source.
Juskatla has the storm blew over havent heard for you in a while just wondering if you made any progress with the old girl....
xpack, Yes we have calm again, for now anyway. That Pineapple Express has been dumping lots of Pacific moisture on us in waves of storms, and on our neighbours in Washington and Oregon. No change to the project yet, as I have been busy with dental and eye appointments and nowhere near the machine. Sucks to get old... My helper went back to the oil patch and promised to be back on his next days off in January. I expect to get on with it by then but nothing like your break neck speed. Nice to move forward and I hope ours goes as quickly as yours. I did have a look at a few things but its still not running. Yet... I am following your thread on the shuttle, as I have a seal to replace at the rear of the trans and will want to clean the screen while its split into three pieces.
Jusk i couldnt agree more about the old thing..I am thinking of drilling and plugging the torque tube for the screen if i do i will post some details about it.How do you know you have a bad seal there at the trans and rearend im asking because i havent looked in too what that would take to change it and i might do mine while its apart Something tells me yours will be a little slower on yours only because you have to hire a submarine or spongebob :spongebobto send and receive parts (just kiddin) im sure you will get her going soon enough just hang onto your wallet it gets a little bitey.Good to hear from you again...
xpack, the indication that I may have a bad seal in the rear of the transmission is that the level in the rear diff rises while the trans/shuttle drops. Not much and maybe not a big deal but while its apart... I will inspect this closer when we get there. On the parts time and cost, when I purchased this machine from a friend in 1991, it had not done much work in some time but was used pretty well before that. Rather than bring it over to the island place, I arranged for the local college heavy duty shop to take care of a some stuff, like swing tower pins and bushings, boom pivot and some other minor stuff. They pressed out stuff that I never would have gotten apart. Machine was $4500, parts were almost $4000 and since then I have done a couple of cylinders, some hoses, replaced the swing tower manifold and hoses, the front axle and so on for another $2500. The engine overhaul will run over $2500 with parts and machine shop work, but hey, its an old friend and where would I get another one in as good shape (I hope) for much less never mind the 25 yrs of use its given me and my sore back. Lots of machines out there but unless you are in a different tax bracket than me, anything worth buying is over the top.
JustAtla........I totally agree with that.....the prices of new decent loaders/backhoes are way out of reach. Its nice having an old rig like we have that we can do some repairs and essentially have it do about the same work as a $50,000 machine. Plus we can dig our own holes for our caskets and save a fortune in funeral expenses, as xpac mentioned sometime ago (not quite sure how we are going to work that out, but just need to get trough the tricky details).
Jusk, I am going to check my seal for the rear end as well i dont think mine is leaking but while im in there why not?? I personally think for the things we do with these old ones they are a perfect fit for what we do and getting back in these years with these kinda speaks for itself they must be tough after all the stuff they have been threw they cost from time to time but at least i dont have the very cheap and unpredictable and very expensive electronics to deal with nor do i have all the overkill safety's shutting down the tractor. The kubota i used to split my 580 with was 30g the 580 was 3g and the 580 will outwork the kubota hands down and the kubota is a 2007 and a seal was leaking between the engine and trans so i had to split it 2 years ago which im thinking was around 1g for me to do it.Whatever the cost is for me on my 580 when it is all done is worth it to me as well.
Since I had some spare time... I decided to spend a bit of time in the Case Manual. A question for xpack, since he has his split into pieces, Is the seal between the shuttle and transmission or between the rear diff and the transmission? I ask the question because without the tractor to look at, its a bit confusing in the diagrams. Mine is a shuttle with the four speed transmission. It looks like it should split the torque tube with the shuttle off the engine and forward of the transmission. Does that sound correct? When I get back to the machine, and the parts book, I'll look up the seal and its likely location. May not be a problem for you but I want to at look at mine and replace if it doesn't require too much disassembly. I'm already more than a bit concerned about the amount of stuff to come off to remove and overhaul the engine, even before doing anything behind that. Fun isn't it? Also, where is the block drain? Other than the plug for the block heater, I can't locate anything else and the manual assumes you know what you are doing...
hey jusk are you saying you you have the power shuttle it sound like it if so it is what mine is and tomorrow i will get some pics and a better answer about this rearend seal.I just looked in my manual and it looks like the seals are accessible after you split the torque tube from the transmission (where i split mine) i will try to verify that tomorrow.I have read about guys using shuttle oil in the rear end so if it leaks between the 2 it wont matter you may be interested in checking that out to. I will also look for a block drain tomorrow.And the books arent real great about explaining this stuff.
xpac and justatla.....here is a pic of when I installed the block heater. To the right you can see the block drain, which is open and letting water out: Another:
68case, Thanks, I'm back at it today and found a plug hiding behind the wire leading to the sensor on that side. I hadn't noticed it before and don't think its mentioned in the manual. Some cleaning and we'll be ready to move...
xpack, Its the shuttle and 4 speed trans. I run Case Hytran Ultra in the shuttle and gear oil in the rear end. If it will take a split to replace the seal and not too much dismantling, I will look at doing it while its inside and half apart anyway. A question for Melben, Delmer or any of the other guys familiar with this CK or similar B. I searched the forum but didn't find much on this one. When the machine is running, I can't shift the transmission between gears. This includes the safety start position, so have used the shuttle neutral and with the transmission in the selected gear for work or travel. Any opinion on what the cause may be? Its shuttle related since its turning even when in neutral but am not sure why at this point. Thanks for any advice on pinpointing this before we tear it down.
JUSK here is a shot of the front of the tranny where the tractor splits its looking to me like you pull the bolts for this cover and then you can access the seal
I removed the shifter plate off the tranny so we could see in the tranny
tranny
xpac.....when I took off my tranny cover, I could see that those 3 holes are where the shifter shafts need room to slide frontward and backward. Do those holes go all the way through, and could allow fluids to go back and forth?
bottom side of shifter plate
Xpac......Another tip since you have the tranny cover off: My Hi/Lo Range shifter had been popping into neutral whenever a variable load was put on it (usually going up or down hills). I fixed the problem by putting a new "D" shaped woodruff key in the Hi/Lo shaft base. Over the years, the woodruff key had worn, making the throw-action of the shifter not allow the shaft to engage the gears fully. You may want to install a new woodruff key if there is any play in the Hi/Lo Range shifter, or if your tractor ever popped into neutral. So far, mine has not popped into neutral yet.
no on Jusk's and mine they are the power shuttle and that front plate seals them off ours has the hy trans oil for the shuttle and the 80 90 for the trans and rearend these are seperat compartments what oil does yours have in front of the tranny?
yea yours is different than ours we dont have the hi lo range just 4 gears and a s position then the f/n/r on the column im thinking yours is the mechanical shuttle where ours is a power shuttle but i would like to know for sure what yours is called just curious
Thanks xpack, Today was spent degreasing and warming up in between with repair manual. It does look like there is a double lipped seal behind that plate that could be the culprit. I have a Parts manual at home and I will check it out. I also spent a bit of time on packratc's posting from a couple of years ago about his repairs. Long read but some interesting issues and responses from the more knowledgeable members will be valuable if I go that far. The trouble is knowing when to stop...
Xpac.....Pic of the woodruff key:
Xpac......Oh, OK........I did not know that the power shuttle did not have the Hi/Lo range shifter. I guess mine is the mechanical shuttle and yours in the power shuttle. I also have the 80/90 oil in the rearend and tranny, but a hy trans oil in the Hi/Lo shifter/mechanical shuttle compartment. Then the torque tube in front also has the hy trans oil (I think).
Im thinking yours has to be whats called the mechanical shuttle i see you have the f/n/r on the steering column i believe they also made one that was just a stick shift with a dry clutch but i dont know for sure
The Journey Begins After spending this morning draining the fuel tank and doing some more degreasing and power washing, I moved along this afternoon and detached the backhoe. This entire process only took a couple of hours, and considering I hadn't had it off myself and it wasn't running, it went pretty well. When I parked it some time ago, the hoe was set so that it didn't need to be readjusted.
Until We Meet Again... Once I had the hoe blocked off, I jacked up the loader a few inches and added a couple of channel iron blocks to take the strain and keep the bucket off the ground. Then, ran a chain under the bucket to the centre hook and attached it to the tow vehicle. It will have to sit there until after Christmas when I will get it onto the concrete apron in front of the shop door and do another thorough cleaning before pulling it inside.
Juskatla.......Excellent job! Did you find that those two large nuts on top were hard to get loose? I bet your pins also had a decent amount of rust beginning to occur. A great time to thoroughly clean and de-rust them, and grease them well before putting back in. I did the same with the bottom "U" mounts on the mounting frame. I bet that is a relief to have done before Christmas, and you can soon get her into the shop and out of the weather.
68Case, The nuts were tight, but once I had the back of the cab off, I used my 3/4 breaker bar, some penetrating oil and a 10 ft cheater pipe... They took a bit of work, but loosened up fine. I didn't want to drag the gas axe out but that was another alternative. Heat does wonders. The pins came out by hand, one at a time after I used a jack to lift each side and remove the pressure on them. For sure, I will reinstall them with Neverseize to help the next guy that has to do this. Hopefully, its not me.... I'd really like to stay and work on it but we have other things to do at the house and this will be there when we come back around New Years.
Hey Jusk cool you got her off sound like it went really a lot easier than it could have without the tractor running.Man i do like that cap for a full cap thats the best one i have seen ami seeing a window in the roof at the back where you can look up when running the backhoe???? and i have also been wondering about a seat for mine it looks like yours is solid the back dont fold down mine does and i wondered if i can go to a solid one.Im wondering are you going to pull your loader off like i did or just raise it and brace it with the angle iron ??? See ya after the 1st.....
Juskatla.....Yep, I used the same trick.....the 3/4 breaker with a 6 ' cheater pipe. Sometimes those pipes on top of the breaker bars work miracles. Im sure you had already planned to do so, but I found most of the bolts loose which mounts the backhoe frame assembly to the tractor. I let penetrating oil soak for days and then retightened all of them......and some were several turns loose. Good ole breaker bar with pipe:
Yea i had 1 of those loose as well and there is that long bolt on the bottom that goes threw the bottom backhoe brace in the loader frame toward the front 1 on each side these were loose on mine as well
xpack, the cab is a Sims and was delivered with the tractor. Its not too big and from the seat, it doesn't block the vision above at all and with the added on panel taken out, the view of the area immediately below the how is much improved. I may that not put that back, as I never liked it anyway. When I got the tractor years ago, I also received a full set of snap in curtains to cover the side and rear openings when stored. These may finally be put into service. They are intended to be snapped on with dome fasteners which are installed on the cab. Not a priority but would keep the seat dry when not in the big shed. For the seat, I had the stock seat, with a bottom cushion and a smaller back cushion. While the machine was at a friends years ago, his guard donkey took a shine to the tractor and ate the corner off the original seat. As a quick replacement, I purchase a generic tractor seat, filled a plate to the original mount and bolted the new seat to that. Its still adjustable but now, after all these years sitting outside a lot, that seat needs to be replaced. I may dig out the original and have it recovered if the cost is even close.
I thought I'd replied to this but it went somewhere, who knows where? Dropping the hoe was easier than I expected, but I also learned a few tricks from my father about how to work smart. It ended up being pretty straight forward, but you know that already, being further down the road on yours than I am. Yet... I have not decided if the loader arm frame has to come off, but the bucket will get dropped before it goes inside. When you removed the tube joining the two sides on yours, were they threaded and how easy was that? I don't really want to take the loader frame off to do that, but the fuel tank needs a good cleaning and may not make it under the cross tube. We'll see I guess.
Is there enough room for manuvering the seat you have on now i am thinking of doing a seat like that but i am worried about spinning it around without hitting the steering wheel.Is that a window on the roof at the rear so you can look up threw it when your using the backhoe i cant tell from your pic but it looks like something is there.That cab looks pretty easy to remove also which makes it nice for working on stuff.My neighbors 580b is a pain with his cab
xpack, I have the seat set for me at 5'10", and it will just swing around past the wheel. I could also adjust it back, but forward or closer to the wheel will not work. The window in the top of the cab does not give any more view as you can see the entire boom and dipper in the extended, raised position due to the height of the cab roof . It does let you see above, so you don't back into a tree limb, like why mine is currently dented.... The cab has a narrow floor panel across the cab between the wheels, to stand on when shifting to run the how, and is bolted to braces attached to the axles and at the front with a couple of straps. As its all bolted together, I am going to take it apart into panels and flat store it against the wall until I am ready to deal with it again. Some dent repair, paint and front glass replacement are in order once the rest is done.
Xpac/Jusk......My seat was totally shot, and I ordered a replacement from TractorStuff for around $100. It had 4 holes that alligned perfectly with the 4 holes on the factor steel post plate. It goes frontward/backward, and spins 360 on the shaft. I cleaned the slotted shaft and lubed real well, and now for some reason when I pull the seat up and spin it to the backhoe it will stay in the top slot until I sit on it.....then after a second or so, bang........it goes all the way down with me on it. Im wondering how to fix the shaft so it doesnt slip. Hey, maybe Juskatla had that high window so he can see incoming Russian SU24s and pull the trigger and give them some anti-aircraft rounds. That would be a nice attachment to have on the rear.
Shoot.......literally all the bolts/nuts were loose on mine.......talk about "shake, rattle, and roll".
The reason i took my loader arms off was i wanted as much room as possible to work on this stuff but if i was only going to remove the engine i think i would have just removed the bucket then raised the loader arms and blocked the cylinders.As far as that spacer pipe between the loader im thinking you have to remove the 2 large bolts at the front by the radiator on the loader arms to get enough to spread these.There is a long threaded rod that goes threw the loader arms and that spacer pipe just remove the nut on 1 side and drive that all the way out dont worriy about the loader arms dropping as they will stay there because of the bushings.Then what i did is put a porta power between the loader tanks and spread the loader untlyoucan pop that spacer pipe out and it has to spread quit a bit but when you get it spread far enough it will come right out there nothing like threads or set screws holding it in there.
Thats the kinda seat i want to get your seat post is different than mine.the top slot should have a hole in it as well for your pin to drop into check that
xpac.....I will inspect it close next time...like you said, maybe I did not have the seat exactly parallel to the backhoe controls, and thats why it was flopping back down.
Hey Jusk where did you get a complete set of factory manuals??? My manuals cover most but there is stuff missing ???
Xpack, The Service Manual, operators manuals for the tractor and loader/backhoe came with the machine, along with the crow foot wrenches, drifts for pressing bushings, a bunch of new filters and a box of various useful parts and hoses. Purchased from friend who was the second owner, so benefited from what he had put aside. If you let me know what sections you think you are looking for, I can check and maybe get you a copy done and mailed. Jess
xpac......I bought a large binder with the shop manuals from Case about 25 years ago, but it is also missing some sections. I have recently purchased on Ebay parts manuals for the tractor, backhoe, and loader......they come in real handy. I prefer getting the old original ones instead of a CD where you have to pull up everything on the computer.
JUSK/68 if i do need anything specific i will pm you for them and i wish i would of got them with mine but all i got was the tractor.I ended up buying the manuals off ebay not the cd crap but mine are reprints and i dont know what happened but it dont cover what the factory manuals do.
xpac.....yea, those reprints just dont meet up to the standards of the old original materials. Another example of the decline in quality from that of the old days.
Yea theres to much of that going on today its amazing how our throwaway world operates...
Hi Jusk did you survive the holidays cant wait to see your project underway again.I just got my rearend back in the shop yesterday and mocked up the rops for the front brackets to be tack welded before i brought the rearend in the shop then removed the rops as it wont go under the 8ft door in my current shop but the new shop has the 10ft door so when thats done (hopefully this summer) she will fit in there.I hadnt heard from you so i thought i would give you a shout out..Take care and maybe we can bring 2 of these old 580,s back to life this year...
New Years Project xpack & 68case, and all the others in here, Happy New Year! xpack, I have been following your progress with great interest and looking forward to seeing you drive away into the snow pile.... We have had a few days of freezing here but no snow, calm seas and now quite dry. We will be back to rain sooner or later. A few totes of extra tools and the tractor manuals came ashore here this time so once we get cleaned up, I'll be ready to start in. With limited room to store stuff and lots of boxes in the shop already, I decided that I should set up some pallet racking along one wall to clear the floor. I have quite a pile of currently unused racking uprights, beams and steel wire shelving in the other building that I have started drag over, clean up and will paint today. Once its set up, I can load the shelves with longer term storage and have more floor space for the dismantle of the tractor. With the backhoe off the tractor, I found areas that need additional cleaning and still have to drain the fluids, which I hope to start in on today. Then we move it onto the front concrete apron for a final wash and inside. I won't be making the same velocity that xpack is going, and no 12 hour days but steady progress will get it done. Walking around here yesterday, looking at all the stuff that needs doing, I'm missing the tractor already... Stand by for further updates as they develop
Juskatla........Happy New Year to you too. Glad to hear your making good preps to get the shop ready for the big overhaul. I agree with you......no one can shake, rattle, and roll as fast as Xpac, but we eventually get the job done. In case you didnt see my other thread, here is a Merry Christmas pic, 580CK style:
Thanks for the compliments about the speed of this probably the main reason im trying to get her done is that like Jusk i already miss having her going and the next reason would be i also have a camper project that the wife says has to be complete this winter i had gotten all the exterior redone just before bad weather set in and yea its from the 70's as well but ol Marie comes first.I couldnt agree with you guys more about the work space being as organized as one can be my shop right now is 22wx30d and it dont take much to trash it out i am constantly picking it up after every mess just to make the next one....
Hey, even the Tazmanian Devil needs a thumbs up sometimes. Ha ha. :thumbsup Like everything you are working on, the camper is looking great so far too....thanks for the pics......I might get some ideas I can use down the road. I hear you about "trying" to be organized in the shop.....but I find myself leaving huge messes as I work, and misplacing tools......one day I might get some order in the garage again........and find that set of Case Crow's feet I lost some time ago.
Today was somewhat productive. No visuals though... I dumped the engine oil, no suprises since it has been changed some months ago and not run. The shuttle oil was changed a couple of years ago and this time, pretty dark. No bits in it but I'll wait to pull the covers before I decide if it needs what xpack has done to his. By then, I'm sure his will be moving those big snow piles you get out there from 'Lake Effect' weather. Tomorrow, I'll drop the rear end oil and the steering pump. Last time I did the steering pump oil and filter, it had some moisture in it. If its like that stuff that xpack dropped out of his, I'll be worried. I have a box of all the various filters and 'o' rings for a major change on this old machine. I was lucky and got a bunch of empty oil buckets from the local Case dealer, so recycle handling will be pretty easy. Out here, on the small island, everything comes and goes by boat or tug and barge. I can move a few clean pails at a time and keep ahead of the mess. I managed to paint most of two of the pallet racking uprights and will finish these and another one tomorrow. Who knew there was so much surface area on this stuff? Once they are dry, the beams and wire shelving will come over and get a lick of paint. My father repaired and built a lifetime of stuff in his years and he didn't consider anything done until it was painted... I guess I'm not his son for nothing. In a few days this will get interesting as the tractor will actually be involved. Pictures to follow....
Jusk i know the feeling about the painting thing i originally wasnt going to paint my tractor but its winter and i have the time and a woodburner and i just couldnt let it go so now im deep in it as you know but when its done i will be glad i did it.The other day i built this thing in the pic to help catch the overspray and push the odor outside it has a furnace blower in the box it aint no paint booth but works for what i need i just paint a little at a time and it does a pretty god job keeping up with the overspray the other end just sits in a window and exhaust outside the filter catches the overspray pretty good.
Hey Jusk if you decide you dont need to remove your torque tube but you want to clean that dreaded screen i think you could pull the shuttle valve block and the plate under it and maybe pour some diesel in the hole for the pickup tube then seal the hole with air shooting down the hole for this pickup tube then drain the diesel. Just a thought..
xpac.......That portable paint booth air filter contraption is "slicker than owl snot" (as someone in this forum said before). Thats a great idea......and on wheels, so you can place it near the action. I see the yellow and orange all over the filter, so its definately working. With that rig, I wouldnt have to use my paint brush and roller anymore.
yea it dont get everything but if you paint a little at a time it seems to keep up pretty good and is way better that the box fan blowing outside for sure and with the 78cent filters its cheap to change them..
Jusk i put up some pics today on my thread about those seals for the rear end they were straight forward to change but thought i would let you know so you could check them out.And i screwed up when i split mine i didnt know but you should check your gap between the shuttle and the shims before you split it the gap is supposed to be .025 min. to .045 max. then you will know if you need to add shims when you put it back together i will be putting mine back together then checking gap and if necessary i will split it to get it shimmed right im keeping my fingers crossed...
Xpac....Is the reason for the gap to allow some slight gap for the gasket that goes in? Otherwise, over time the extreme pressure would be too much on the gasket?
That paint dust filter is a great Idea . Did you use an enclosed or explosion proof motor and grounded . We had a guy level his shop doing this , He never walked out . Just a thought .
Yes it is grounded but no its not a explosion proof motor its just a furnace blower and im not trying to justify it in anyway i only use it while i paint small sections at a time If i was painting cars or the whole tractor all at once i wouldnt use this i also open the door and windows i mainly am using it to catch overspray and it dont catch it all but it helps there is defenitly risk factors with this kinda stuff.
Thanks xpack, I was going to check those shims since I have the 'can't shift the trans when running' issue. The seals are also on my list and your pics are a good guide. I have been busy painting racking and picked up the paint for the shelving yesterday. I'm hoping to have it dry and installed early in the week so the shop floor can get cleared. I drained all the hydraulic oil and the shuttle already. Today, I will see if I can get the plugs out of the block and drain the coolant. As we have wildlife around, I have to make sure nothing is spilled and all goes to recycle in town. Once I get the tractor up onto the concrete apron, I will do another cleaning, pull off the loader arms and bucket and see about removing the cross tube on the loader frame. Then is will be ready to head inside and get on with it. I appreciate the pics both you and 68case have been posting as they will be useful and I can benefit from your experiences. I will do the same so we can pass on what we have learned for the next guy. There are lots of these old machines still lurking in the woods that will sooner or later need some love.
Hey fellas, just thought of something that you need to check before splitting for seals, on the BH/Ldr tractors there was a plastic plug with a spring hose clamp to plug off a piece of pipe that was installed in the 4 speed box up tight in the r h front corner of the tranny casting after the cover is removed. It was common for the cover to slide of and open a leak between the front and the back. The purpose for this pipe was that the transmission casting was shared with the ag tractors that used the same rear casting and was used to install a drain hose from the rear lift used on ag units to return piston seal leakage to the front compartment. If the plug is missing the fix was to get a tapered groove pin and drive it into the pipe to seal it off. This is a much more likely place for oil transfer than the shaft seals. Shaft seals were not that big an issue. Mel
Melben, I went back to look at xpacks post #558 where he showed the seal replacement. Would the pipe/hole show in that picture? I'll be sure to look for it before I go as far as splitting it. Thanks for the heads up, it experience like yours that will keep us from going too far astray.
Remove the 4spd shifter cap, up high under the casting front rh side. Short pipe sticking back, should have a plastic cap on it with a round spying clamp, if not oil can transfer there
I just went threw my pics and i think melben is talking about the plug in the top right corner in this pic i had no idea what that was when i had the cover off but i may pull my cover again to check that i wasnt getting rearend oil in my shuttle compartment i just wanted to change the seals while i had it apart Thanks for the tip melben this info is priceless
xpac......At first I thought you meant the small hole off to the right of the larger "3 holes" near the top of the case. Then I saw the white plastic plug with a clip on it. Checking my pics, I dont have this plastic plug......so Im guessing that since I have a mechanical shuttle, that I dont even have the hole in the case. Heres my pic:
I see that I have that same plastic cap and hose clamp to keep my Hy-Tran and rear diff fluids from mixing. I remember seeing at the time and wondering why it would have been there.
And So It Begins With a little help from my neighbour out here from Alberta, we moved the tractor onto the concrete in front of the shop. A chain, his jeep, and my heavy recovery setup and it went pretty slick. We used my other project sitting inside the shop as an anchor for the block and tackle. It will be a bit slow getting started but I'll post up some pictures when there is something of interest to share. This will be new territory for me as I have never had this one apart before.
Looks like you got her cleaned up good now i see where they welded up your loader arm. I wish i had that tall door on my shop what is that 14' that will let you pull her in with the cab on my current shop is only a 8ft door and something tells me when i mount my rops i will be out in the cold with the carharts doing it...
Juskatla........Let the show begin. Now the fun starts.......but you dont have to try to break Xpac's speed record on the restoration work. He's a maniac......probably has a cot in the warm shop so he can take cat naps and work 24-7. Ha ha. Nice looking Jeep too.......gotta me me one of those!
Just dont tell my wife about the cot idea or xpack will be sleeping just below his sign hahahaha
xpack, The repair is a common one from what I can see. Mine is not done so well and if I can find another loader arm reasonably close, I will replace it. Its still serviceable so can be a future project if I run out of time or $. The shop door is 14' high x 16 wide. I can put my boat in there and don't need to worry about the radar or other stuff sticking up. Originally, it was going to be scissor trusses but decided to have an upstairs for storage along the one side. That turned into finished space for my wife's craft room, washroom and a spare room to 'store' guests. The shop floor is already too small.... I have a tarp awning and poles that will cover most of the area where the tractor is now, so if the weather doesn't cooperate, I can put it up and keep the rain off my neck. 68case, I won't be in competition with xpack for the trophy, as everything seems to take longer than planned. Rather than tear it all down at once, I will concentrate on the engine and then move along to the other items that need some TLC. The backhoe will be looked at next winter since its just ugly but useable as is. You both have done great work and your machines will be useful for many years to come.
Juskatla........thanks for the thumbs-up on the work we did on our old CKs.....thats the goal, to have them running for many more years to come. Yep, I am also envious of your 14' high shop door......real nice. Xpac........at least you have Old Abe and Marie Voodoo Queen to watch over you as you snooze on your cot......just keep your blue pills, smokes, and booze in a safe place.
Jusk i see yours has different (CASE) decals than ours and i see on your loader arms it not only has the ck letters but the word case on the sides mine only had the ck letters but i think in my decal set i have a extra set of the case decals or maybe thats where they are supposed to go ??? i like the looks of the word case being on there so maybe i will do mine there.....It sounds like your going to do your tear down right where you have it setting on the cement pad is that right? if so it will give you good access all the way around there were times if i would of been able to do mine in warm weather it would have been handy for the painting and a couple other things.My problem is its way to cold to do it outside and when the weather breaks i usually get so busy i dont have time to tackle a project like this thats one reason im ripping threw this to get it done while its cold out.....
xpack, The decals on my '68 are original. It even has the original dealers plate and later resellers decals. I've seen a few different styles of decals but don't know when they changed up to the more modern ones that you have now. The parts book shows the various decal and instruction label locations but I think with anything this old, you do what works for you. We have reasonably warm weather here, and likely no snow this close to the water. That makes power washing and cleaning outside an viable option. I use the gas leaf blower to dry off before bringing stuff inside. The plan for disassembly is to get the loader frame off, hood, fuel tank, hydraulics and maybe the cab off where it sits. Then I'll roll the orange part inside and set up for the split between the torque tube and the block. While the block and head are away for magnaflux and machine work, I can look at the shuttle and likely another split at the transmission. I have a total or 40' of floor, with my M37 truck taking 18', so the rest is available to spread it out. If I run out of room, I can run the truck around and leave it outside but I'd rather not since its dry now. The list for now is: engine out of frame major, injection pump rebuild, starter rebuild, clean shuttle pump suction screen, inspect shuttle and likely do the same as you did. The right rear axle seal is leaking, so will replace that and inspect the bearing. The loader frame may be replaced if I can find a good take off this side of the known world. The tilt cylinders will go to the hydraulics shop, one for a new rod and the other as required upon inspection. Goes without saying that any hose that comes off will be replaced. I have a few hydraulic hoses that I suspect are original and a lot that are more than 25 years old, before I got the machine. If I could find a 3 spool loader valve, I would change it out to be ready for a future addition on the loader bucket. Return to Dig, like you guys are doing, rear tires and eventually the backhoe cleanup and paint are beyond the horizon for now. The clock is ticking on lot of stuff and when you enter your 'senior' years, the time goes quicker, productivity drops off and the $ seems to fly away. I'm trying to get caught up before I hit that wall.... I can't promise my posts will be as entertaining as you guys but I will try to document my findings, plan of action, solutions and results. Hopefully, they won't involve any of this
My experience says your first move should be to to put the explosives on a ship if you leave them by you they will certainly be used hahahah Im hoping to put my loader back on this weekend if i do i will try to get some shots of it going together and i did post the bushings that hold the arms to the hyd tanks lastnight so when you get to that point you can see how it comes apart when you remove the long threaded rod with the nut on each side dont be afraid to pull that rod all the way out as long as you dont let the bushing come out and its the rod only the loader will stay up because the bushings hold it there then all you have to do is pickup on the loader arms and the bushings will pull right out then its ready to remove....and by all means if you have any questions feel free to ask i will gladly share what i have learnt with you and i have a ton of pics that i didnt post of different things....
Dynamite !!!!!!!!!! Run for your lives!!!!!!!
Hey jusk just because i am curious and i dont remember you saying for sure what it is that is going on with your engine would you mind posting on here what was going on with it.I remember you saying you had hoped to get it running long enough to work the hydraulics for the move but thats all...Did you loose oil pressure,water in oil,it just wont start,ect....It just will be neat to know what the symptoms are for the engine going into your project then what the final results are when your done....If you have this posted already please send me to it.....Thanks
xpack and everyone else who may be looking in on us over here, I have owned this 1968 580CK since 1991 and bought it from a friend who was the 2nd owner. It started life in municipal service somewhere in the Greater Vancouver area. The deal was made years before, as I told my friend that when he was done his building etc, I would like to buy the tractor to use at my Gulf Island cabin property. At the time of purchase, I was living and working on the British Columbia north coast so had little time to deal with any repairs. Another acquaintance introduced me to one of the instructors at our local Vocational Heavy Duty shop and we arranged for them to repin the hoe and do some other necessary repairs along with full maintenance, oil and filters. From there, it came here and has been extremely useful in many projects including the construction of my shop shown in earlier posts in this thread. It has always smoked a bit and I purchased new injectors planning to get around to them eventually. More recently, I was having trouble starting the tractor in the cold without a sniff of ether, the engine killer. I bought the block heater but never got it installed either. Last fall, we were collecting wood at the neighbours for a Halloween bonfire and coming back up the steep driveway, I ran it out of fuel. Fuel pickup is at the front of the tank, so less than a half tank and steep ground don't mix. I know better and this wasn't the first time. I went home, grabbed fuel and new filters and bled out the system. It started but seemed to lack power but got me back home. I parked the tractor with plans of looking into it. A few weeks later, with the help of my grandson, we changed the engine oil and filter which was due. Its reluctantly started up and did a little heavy lifting and was parked again. Early last year, I went to use the tractor again but it would not start. Cranked over but no go, even with a shot of ether. Next try, I brought out my big industrial battery, fully charged but it hardly cranked over. I checked it over, confirmed fuel to the pump and still no go. At that point, I thought maybe head gasket and coolant in a cylinder, so dropped the engine oil. I found that it had at least a couple of quarts of water in the bottom of the pan. It had been power washed, sat outside in the rain for a couple of months but not ehough to add that much to the pan. I did a couple of trial and error checks for coolant and still am not certain but think there was antifreeze in there. That prompted my first posting looking for opinions on what to do about it. We drained and flushed the pan, and put new oil in but not run since. Looking back, When under load, it would warm up and then the rad overflow would start to dump coolant. As I like the tractor and can't afford a usable newer one, I have decided to do a full engine, out of frame overhaul and solve this for once and for all time. So far, I have removed the backhoe, done degreasing, power washing and moved the machine to the concrete apron outside my shop door. I have a couple of issues to heal up and then will drop the loader arms and bucket where it sits, do a last degrease, powerwash and pull it inside for disassembly and splitting. The repair list is growing but focus will be the engine at first. With Xpack and 68Case as examples and providing quidance, I'll take the rest on a bit at a time. If I run out of time, $ or need the heavy lift capability, I will defer whatever is left until the fall. So, that's the story so far.... Stay tuned for the next installment as this moves along. I will likely be calling on the experience of members here who spent their working lives up close and personal with similar Case tractors and backhoes. As always, any input is appreciated. For those who have been following the posts by 68case and xpack, don't expect the same frantic pace or entertainment value but I promise to try to document it all, the good, bad and the ugly (that's me). Thanks for coming along!
Juskatla......That was an excellent summary of the history and problems you were having. I imagine you are right, and she must have a leaking head gasket, and you have water mixing with the oil. Will be real interesting watching you begin this task, and getting some tips from you in case I have to do a similar repair.
Hey jusk i cant help but wonder if before you start tearing her down if its even possible if you should do a compression check on the cylinders and put one of those little hand pumps where the radiator cap goes with the radiator being full and pump it up to 4 pounds and let set then see if it leaks down into your oil and the pressure drops.It may help you with the diagnosis when you get in the motor you will have that info moving forward.I know you can rent the little hand pump at any auto store for the radiator the compression checker im not sure on a diesel i have one for gasoline engines but i think theres a different one for diesels ?????
Xpack, Good suggestion on the compression check. I had planned on pulling the injectors and doing a test but wasn't able to find the correct adapter to borrow so never went that far, I did have the new injectors pop tested at my local injection shop but at least they are ready for the rebuild. On the cooling system pressure test, I have the cadillac kit with all the adaptors that was used once years ago and now will get dusted off again. If you recall my spring posts about water in the oil, I was considering pulling the pan and doing the test, Now that I have the tractor reasonably clean and outside the door, I will do the pressure test and see if anything drains out the pan. If it does, I will drop the cast pan for a look see before I drain the block and rad. I have my suspicions but will wait for proof. Once the antifreeze is drained, I'll flush the block, drain the steering pump and move the tractor inside. I'm doing it this way to reduce the amount of fluids that might get spilled on my clean floor. 68case, I will see what we find and expect it to be obvious if the head gasket failed. Will post pics like you guys have done. I have already benefitted from both your considerable contributions. I'm not a mechanic but this isn't my first machine project. I do have access to a master mechanic and all his resources if I get stuck. This will be slow and easy, as even access over here takes some planning and other life issues keep coming up.
If we were quarterbacks, then Xpac would be like ole Thiesman of the Redskins who had that 2-minute warning and 7 points behind mentality......and would come out of the huddle, walk up to the center, and w/o a word would steal the ball from the center and backpeddle with his arm cranked back, looking for his tight ends along the sidelines. Juskatla would be more like ole Sonny Jergenson in his last years with the Skins......would lumber out of the huddle, me-ander up to the center, and start belching out numbers and noises, looking right, then looking left, looking forward at the toothless Minnesota Viking who wanted to cross the line and kill him, looking right, then left, seeing the snap cloc hitting 28 seconds, and calls a time out. They get another huddle, assess the situation, and grumbles about the toothless Viking's foul breath, and then they break huddle and scurry up to the line with Sonny waddling slowly up like an overweight duck. Again, he starts yelling numbers, words, complaints, and a few cuss words back at Toothless, then barely gets a snap off before the time clock expires. Although it looks like he is moving in slow-motion, this is his fastest pace as one of his linemen holds Toothless as long as possible w/o the ref noticing, and in a heartbeat the Viking is racing towards Jergenson, who is doing his darndest to just get to the sideline and out of the reach of Toothless. Two steps from the sideline, Jergenson in shear desperation throws a hail marry pass way down field with no clue as to who might be there. Ka-Booooooom, Bang! Toothless runs into Jergenson like a freight train, both smashing into the Gatorade coolers. When Jergenson regained consciousnesses, he sees the Skins have another 6 points on the board. So, Xpac attacks the job with speed, and "gets her done", but Juskatla is more analyzing, taking his time to make sure the job is done the right way. As Einstein would say, and Juskatla surely agrees, "Time is a man-made concept". Ole 68........Well, I guess I am the injured quarterback like Joe Namath of the Jets, and his busted-up knees. It is painfull and it really sucks sometimes to have to do the work, but there is no-one else around to "get her done". I win some, loose some, and just hope the number of wins exceeds the number of losses. And I will be on the sidelines to hand Sonny some Gatorade and to kick ole Toothless off his back. Ha ha.:drinkup
Well, I finally got some time in on her today, after being limping around with a sprain. It was nice to get out in the sun and do something for a change. The plan was to pull the cross shaft and drop the front end loader sub frame with the bucket before moving the tractor inside the shop. I disconnected the one end of the lift cylinders, hydraulic lines and removed the nuts on the shaft. Unfortunately, the shaft will not come out and there may be a distortion that has caused the shaft or large bushings to become shouldered from wear. In order to see if I could pull it out, I welded and eye on the one end and set up a 1 ton lever type puller between the eye and a large fir tree in line some 20' away using chains. I tightened it up and used a bronze drift and sledge hammer on the other end but can't get it to budge. The loader sub frame can be pushed back and forth a bit on the bushings, so its not binding. I suspect the bushings and shaft are the issue. Using my cheater pipe, I loaded up the pull and will leave it overnight. At this point, I'm not sure how to proceed but am considering heat, disassembling the entire loader off the tractor and then pulling it apart, or the route of last resort, which would be cutting the cross tube and shaft to separate the two sides. This would mean having replacements made locally or getting the pieces for a wrecker somewhere. To remove the loader as a unit, I would have to remove the cab, drop the backhoe mountings and all the hydraulics. Some was going to come off anyway but I was trying to focus on the engine, which is the real goal of this project. As I do not have another tractor or easy access to suitable equipment, It will all need to be done with jacks and dollies. I'll sleep on it and see what tomorrow gives me....
Jusk........You are talking about the large "cross shaft" that is shown in this pic?: It is right above the fuel tank, and you can see the nut on the left side. Could there be weight bearing down on it, which might cause any worn spots to act like a bolt and prevent it from sliding out? Another idea I have is could you put a nut back on one end and try rotating the entire threaded shaft as you pull it from the other end? I think Xpac could offer some big help since he just had his apart.
Hey jusk i also have been thinking on what could be holding up that rod....I dont remember you saying if you can turn the rod or not from what i seen with mine and hearing what you are experiencing with yours i just wanted to throw this out there to maybe help you.If that rod will not turn then it must mean that the rod has had to of rusted to the id of at least one of the bushings and that at least one of the bushings od is rusted to the loader arm and or hyd tank....anything is possible but i think i would try the turning thing and that should tell you its a rusted deal at which point i would put the pressure on it like you have now and start with the heat at the other end of the rod where it comes out the bushing and just see what happens if nothing there then try the side with the eye bolt welded to it.. just watch for the nasty grease fires...... That rod should turn fairly easy and if it does then you can have someone watch the bushing to see if they are turning with the rod if one is then you found where its rusted together ... I cant imagine yours being made different than mine but anything is possible yours sure looks like mine...... One more thing i just though of is it might help if you put your portapower between the hyd towers near that spacer pipe and put a little pressure between the 2.... I hope this gives you some more options let me know if your rod turns ...... here are some pics that may help ???? This is without the bushing in the tower This is the bushing pushed into tower it just slides in no hammer required bushing before sliding it into tower heres that bushing part way in loader arm and it just slid into the arms as well here it is slid all the way into the loader arm and tower
heres the rod and this one is smooth except the ends where threads are here you can see how it would be on both sides when all is attached Dont mean to drown your thread with pics but hopefully theres something here that may help you to get that stubborn rod out of there...
Model 33 Loader Disassembly 68case, Yes, that is the shaft I need to remove before I can drop the whole loader sub frame. I can turn the rod using a big wrench but its tight as if its binding.:beatsme The loader frame may be racked out of square and if that is the case, we will have to take it off the tractor in one piece and then disassemble it afterwards. xpack, Thanks for posting those pictures. They are a help with understanding how the bushings fit into the loader frame hydraulic towers and sub frame arms. Its possible that the shaft is rusted into the bushing where it sits in the towers and that would explain why it won't move. The bushings are well greased where they go into the sub frame arms and can be moved side to side several inches on the right side (from the drivers seat) only. The left side is where I have welded the pulling eye and it does not have much play. Looking at your pictures, I'm wondering if the bushing may also be rusted into the hydraulic tower on one or both sides as there is no visible way to grease that other than at assembly. Over the 25 years sitting, this and the shaft in that area may be the problem. I did do a small push to see if the tube was free and it does move on one side at least. Heat may be the answer but I will exhaust all other options first and then be prepared for smoke and fire. I do have several 15Lb CO2 shop extinguishers and will have someone else to watch was we go forward. We don't have any fire protection here and I have no intention of burning down my tractor or risking the loss of my shop in the process. We'll have another go at tomorrow and hopefully have some good news...:drinkup
Jusk if when you are turning the rod if the bushings are also turning then you know the bushings arent rusted to the towers but the bushings are rusted to the rod.... It sounds like when your turning the rod the bushings are turning with it and that maybe why its turning so hard..... There is no way of adding grease to the bushings in the towers that i seen either its like you said add it when assembling..... Good luck Tomorrow hope you get it !!!!!!!! if all else fails drop a small stick of explosive in each tower to break things loose..... forget that thought you need to be able to run before you go there and im sure that sprain wont allow you to run...:badidea
xpack, You are probably right on in suggesting that the shaft is frozen in the bushings. We'll give it another go in then morning before deciding on the gas axe. I may change sides for the pull and see if it will come out any easier. I can weld another eye onto the other side and see which one moves first. Lucky I have a few strategically placed trees to use as anchors for this. If I wake up tomorrow and have a 100' fir across the tractor, at least I will know that the shaft wasn't coming out any time soon. I actually did leave it tensioned and tomorrow will add some Kroil to the mixture. With grease, Kroil and maybe the gas axe, Marie would feel right at home. Maybe you could ask her to give us a break out here... I have a remote detonation device, so won't need to run too far but any discussion of these types of things on todays internet may bring the Homeland Security people to your door. I would never admit to having access or ecperience with any of that stuff... Its just a construction tool that we have been lucky enough to become proficient with on this rockpile. Seriously though, heat may help if nothing else does. I have the rosebud and the fire extinguisher at the ready.
Heck i want one of the remote detonation devices sounds like fun hahahaha Your right about homeland security knocking down the door these days ........ Good luck on the stubborn rod...
Well, I managed to gain 1/2" on the shaft but nothing more. I decided that I would try the PB Blaster before getting out the rosebud. I'll do a couple more applications today and see how it looks tomorrow. I have confirmed that the bushings are seized onto the shaft, and both are loose in the reservoir towers. The bushing on the 'pulling' end will come out with the shaft, so the effort will be on the right hand end. The grease makes it hard to be sure, but I think the right hand bushing is a local fabrication rather than stock and may be contributing to the problem. I can clean it all up before putting the torch to it and see what it looks like then.
Hey jusk sounds like your getting it now, she moved a 1/2" your idea of the penetrating oil is probably the way to go and beat it back the other way. You got her on the move now and thats way better than no movement...Glad you got some movement out of it with the penetrating oil maybe you wont need to heat it..And i just thought of it but i think seafoam makes a spray like pb blaster and if i am thinking of the right stuff when i used it in the past you could spray that stuff on something like that rod and it would foam up a little and you can watch it suck right into the bushing it was pretty impressive you might try to find that and give it a shot if the pb dont do it.....
Xpac/Jusk......Yep, the PB Blaster eventualy helped the seized front axle spindles to finally give, but it took alot of pounding and soaking, and finally some heat did the trick. Hey Xpac.......what would happen if you sprayed starter fluid around the seized joint, let is soak in as much as possible, spray more......and then get something long to hold a small torch and put the flame to it? You think the sudden burst of fire would penetrate deep inside the frozen area, and help any? (And my eyebrows and lashes have grown back) ha ha.
Jusk i just remembered what that stuff was it is made by seafoam its called deep creep a old motorcycle mechanic buddy of mine turned me on to it and it is pretty good stuff here is a link i hope i did this right http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/sea-fdc14_ml.jpg that shows a pic of it........
68 I have never heard of that one but if it would work hair does grow back haaha i have done that trick on stubborn tires before but it sure makes your butt cheeks pucker........
Xpac......Whats you doing, sittin on the tire as you strike the match, hoping for a good lift-off? Ha......haaaaaa
here is the use for it im talking about https://youtu.be/K-FEkBcepII Heres one thats just funny https://youtu.be/N30WVHIxuj0
Yep....a great way to seat a tire.....and you can use WD40 too. Boy that tube behind the worker must have given off quite a BOOOOOM when it exploded.....funny.
I have only done it as a last resort a few times and whenever i had done it it scares the crap out of you.....
68case & xpack, the old ether trick works pretty well if you are in a pinch to get one seated. I have done a few and the key is just enough ether for the temperature and it will seat. After that a bicycle pump can air it up so you can get home or whatever. The pucker factor comes on a hot day, where the ether evaporates quickly to explosive proportions and you have you Bic poised at the bead. I understand why OSHA regulations frown on the practice. On the tractor front again, rear tires will be on my ever longer list but I think they will go to the tire shop. I have the tools, just not the interest to do the work by hand. Since I have never had one off, I am wondering what to expect for rim condition. They are not loaded like Ag tires, so rusting should be a minimum. I'd hate to have to source rims on top of everything else my old girl needs.
Jusk i changed the rears on mine when i got it and like yours they werent loaded so i just wire wheeled them and painted the inside and really short of breaking them off the bead they were a lot easier than i thought they would be.The ones i just put on the front of mine are like a 12-14 ply tire and if they ever need to come off they will go to the tire shop after 2 guys 4 arms mutliple prybars and several cuss words we finally got them mounted but man were they stiff not much flex to them...... I had made the same mistake 68 did and didnt tube the rears the first time but ended up pulling them back down and tubed them....
Xpac/Jusk......Yep, I told the tire shop that I wanted tubes installed in the rear tires, but they said that it was a waste of money, and that the tires would seal fine. So, I listened to those Knuckleheads and opted out of the tubes.......now one leaks down to a flat tire in 2 weeks, and its a pain in the azzzz to always have to put air in the tire before using the 580CK.....and I dont like to see the sidewall deform when it goes flat, and now have to put blocks under the frame. I should have the tire shop drive out to my home and remove the tire, take it to their shop, and install a tube, bring it back, install it, and all at their expense.
Jusk.....Here are some pics of a badly rusted rim.....you can see that it had rusted around the valve stem. I had to scrap and wire brush all the rust off the rims, and used fiberglass and metal screen patches, with bondo repair on top. I then drilled new valve stem holes, but this was tricky since the original valve stem spot is a factory-made flat spot on the rim. So, I had to do some clever grinding to allow the new valve stem to seal properly. (And the air leak is not around the valve stem). You can see the big rust-out hole where the valve stem used to go thru: Here is what the patched area looks like after sanding down the Bondo....I think I used one metal patch, and then a couple fiberglass patches on top of that. Rustoleum oil primer, and I drilled out the two new valve stem holes: I then slapped on a coat of some old yellow paint, and off I went to the tire shop:
I was worried about one of the front rims, as you can see in this pic: The rim was mangled pretty bad: I was surprised how easy it was to use vise grips and just bend the rim edge back in shape, and then use a light pass with the grinder to smooth up any sharp edges. After sanding/priming/painting, the rims turned out great......and the bead held fine, no air leak at all:
And... Now You See It, Now You Don't... Here is the results of a few hours and a hand from one of my friends.
This morning, I started in again, on trying to remove the cross shaft from the loader. Yesterday, some banging, turning the shaft with a wrench and lots of PB Blaster, I left it with only a little movement in the shaft. Today, I put a jack between the reservoir towers on the loader frame and spread it a bit. A friend came over and between us, we truned the shaft and alternated pulling and spreading the frame to try and push the stuck bushing off. It became apparent that it was still way too tight and I put the rosebud to portion of the bushing that was visible. A couple of cycles of pulling, turning and pushing, followed by heating, it started to move. Once it had moved enough for some of the PB Blaster to get at the dry area, it pulled out under the weight of the chain and come-a-long. The bearings will clean up and my friend took the shaft home with him for a good cleaning while I carry on with the real job. The pictures will give you an idea of what it looked like when we pulled it out. I am confident that a good cleaning, proper lube at assembly and normal greasing, that it will come out easier next time. The right side bushing remained in place because of a large washer between the loader reservoir tower and the loader subframe arm. I used a length of 3/4 steel pipe and passed it through from the other side and with a BFH, pounded out the bushing, leaving the washer behind. While I was working, the sidewalk supervisors came to check out progress. They didn't have much to say but are often around for moral support as long as its not too noisy. I'm taking the rest of the day off but plan on getting at it again tomorrow, now that its inside.
Hey jusk Awesome work and now you get to wear the (thats a load off hat ,or in this case a loader off hat) Glad to hear you got it and it sounds like you are able to save everything...... That extra hand is sometimes priceless for stuff like this ..... If you make it to the radiator tomorrow there are 2 nuts at the very bottom of it that you have to remove to take it out and there are 2 access holes under the front end that you can put a extension threw to get at them.....and that radiator is a pretty tight fit..... I like your supervisors you should of wrangled them up and threw a harnesses on them and give that stubborn rod a pull hahaha That reminds me of turkey season a few years back when i went all season listening to toms all around and never seen even one (I have always said that when i think im calling them in, im probably telling them i am a hunter stay away) Anyways the morning after season was over i was up at the shop and here a big tom came right across the yard in front of the shop as to say im still standing......I couldnt do nothing but laugh and watch him rub it in hahahahha
68case, looks like you did wonders with those rims. I'm hoping that I don't have to weld up or do too much straightening on mine. A couple of years ago, I did 10ply tires on the front stock rims. I like the ones that xpack put on his but likely have all the tires I will need on the fronts now. Your look like new now and I should hope to be so lucky. Time will tell. xpack, I did make a difference having someone on the other side while I held the torch. We had used a 6ft cheater on the wrench to tighten up the side with the eye welded on and with the heat, it started to move. A couple of resets of the various pulls and it almost jumped out. From what I can see before getting it all cleaned up, we will be able to reuse all of it. The rod is rusty where it was inside the tube but being hardened, will clean up ok. The areas that were in the bushing were dryer than a popcorn fart and after cleaning will be well lubed before assembly sometime in the future. I'm just happy that its done and I can move ahead with the rest of it. The little crew that lives around my place are quite funny. They all have their own personalities. There is the old doe, a couple of two year olds and the one surviving fawn from last year. When we walk, they will follow along at a distance lined up behind us like cows. A trip to the boat dock and they will hang around at the top of the stairs until we come back up. On any given day, we have anywhere between these 4 and a dozen lurking or sleeping under the trees. I put up my hunting guns years ago and they know they are safe with us, prowlers not so much. We are fortunate to have lots of different birds, wildlife visiting and enjoy their company while we can. Thanks for the heads up on the radiator nuts. I will make sure to have a good look before tearing into it. My grandson is coming later in the week to help, so we will make some real progress while he is here for sure. With the two of us, the work has always gone three times as fast. I wish I was 21 again....
Jusk....Thats funny......I thought those little deer where just those fake ones that people have around their yards, but that someone did a super good job on them. Amazing how tame they are on your little island. Yea, hope you dont have to do the rust repair trick on your rims like I did......but the repairs were alot cheaper than buying new ones. Good to see the rod pulled out......Im hoping my will come out alot easier, and do want to get some grease in there like you and Xpac have done. Xpac.....you need to train Ole Abe on how to gobble, gobble, gobble......and he can sit there and call the Turkeys while you sit back on the barco-lounger with your shotgun. But be sure you dont blow off one of those orange Voodoo Queen wings.
68 heck i will throw the gun in Maries hands im sure her aim would be better than mine and no doubt ol abes calling skills are way better than mine hahahhaha jusk we get some of mother natures creatures up in our yard but they are no where as tame as those on your island and the wife says thats a no hunt zone as if i didnt know haha i am at the tail end of hunting myself about all i do these days is chase that old tom now and then and its back in our swamp and some fishing ...I have though of setting up some feeders for the turkey and deer at the edge of the front yard and the woods so we can watch them maybe i can get one of those old toms to chase the wife around the yard then she will change her rules hahahahah We do have the woody woodpeckers here (pilated woodpecker) and they get pretty big..Heck the other day when i put the rops on i watched 2 swans fly over the shop i couldnt believe they were here already they must not of got the message its still cold here hahahah
xpack, I put in a few hours today and got a lot stripped off the front. Some of those nuts and bolts took the 4 ft cheater on my cheap 3/4 socket wrench to come away. They also got a few shots of PB Blaster. I'm almost out, so whe I go to town later in the week, I will find some of that Sea Foam Creep that you mentioned. My local supplier has it on the shelf so I will give it a try. I am at the stage where I can pull the pump and the radiator, In a previous post, you had mentioned the two screws on the bottom of the radiator. I did find the holes in the casting and cleaned out the junk blocking them. The manual shows the nuts to be 3/8, but after clearing the holes from below and adding all my extensions to reach up there, I can't seem to get on the nut. The bracket is also held by a couple of 1/2 bolts into the frame, so if I can find enough socket extensions to reach, I may try to remove them and the bracket should come away with the rad. Those two bolts are shown in your pic posted early in your thread. I may be doing something wrong but can't seem to get a hold on those nuts that would be on the studs that fir the slots in that bracket. I had thought I had gotten the tractor pretty clean after several power washing sessions but you wouldn't believe how much crud I had troweled out of that front area. Add the hydraulic oil from removing lines and I am glad that I put a poly sheet on the shop floor before bringing it inside. Once I have the most of the stuff off, I may pull it out again for a last cleanup before pulling the engine. This is your pic below, showing the bracket with the rad removed.
It looks like that area is still full of dirt to me, unless it is different than all i've seen, if clean you can get up with a long extension and a swivel socket, a power swivel is best as the standard ones are floppy and a bit more difficult, That brown stuff under the bracket is solid dirt and that should be open clear down to the axle pin area and the two holes should be visible from the angle that the pic was taken from. cleaning that area out is a special treat, lol. To make it more difficult the company put a baffle on the bottom side of the radiator mounting plate that the pump drive shaft goes through so it cannot be easily removed without removing the pump, drive shaft and coupler.
I had a bunch of stuff down there as well and im thinking those nuts are a 9/16 maybe 1/2 and i am pretty sure i had to use a swivel on the end of the extension to get them.....If you have all the lines/pump ect removed from the front of the radiator and you look close you can see the nuts down there from the front..I actually remember starting mine back on the studs from the front....On mine you can see the slots in the bracket so you would think when your removing or installing the radiator you could just loosen the nuts and slide the whole thing forward but that radiator is in there so tight i couldnt just slide it i found it easier to just take the nuts completely off the studs..Also jusk im thinking if you remove the heavy cover that goes over the top of the radiator (its the one the headlights are mounted into) it helps... you have to remove it anyway to remove the engine... Im sure once you get all the stuff out of the way you can look close and you will see the nuts from the front of the tractor then i remember looking at them while feeding the swivel and extension up from the bottom to get the socket on them they are offset from the holes in the bottom im thinking more forward (not a straight shot) You might be able to remove the bracket and all but its so frickin tight in there i dont know if theres room for that bracket to lift out of there with it still attached to the radiator or not and you will probably want to break out the explosives trying to get on the bolts holding the bracket ....And just another tip when you reinstall if you go to napa they have really good radiator hose of different sizes they cut to length for you its way better than a autozone hose and you dont have to buy the whole hose...I learnt the hard way..... One more thing i am thinking when i started these nuts i put my hand threw the hole where the pump mounts so if you remove it im sure that will help you see what im talking about..... When you remove the pump Dale said they are notorious for the teeth on the shaft and the collar on the crank pulley to wear out my pump shaft only slid into that collar about 3/4" which to me didnt seem like much..but mine didnt look bad so i put it back together..... i would be curious to know about how much yours slides in there.... there was someone on the forum who said there is supposed to be a rubber Bushing/washer???? some type of rubber between the rad and the bracket on these studs i didnt have any so i put some rubber washers between them on the reinstall... Heres a couple more pics where its cleaned up and pump out so you can kinda see what im talking about....Sounds like you are making headway on your project i cant remember if you had said you drained your shuttle oil or not but you will want to before you loosen that engine at the bell housing or your floor will look like mine you might even pull those plugs and throw some buckets under them to let them drip out while your doing all this other stuff.......when you get to the point of pulling bell housing bolts you may want to have made a decision for sure if you are going to pull the tranny or not because it will be a lot easier to pull the fuel tank to access stuff its a little more work but well worth it at that point....Hopefully me being so longwinded makes it a little easier on you hahaha
Thanks guys, I'll get it today, Melben, The picture is xpacks that he had previously posted. I was embarrassed to post an end of the day picture of mine because I had a sea of parts and tools dropped on the floor around the machine. I'll clean up a bit today and get some pics to post of the progress. I did a couple of real good cleanings before bringing the tractor inside and am still amazed at how much crud is hiding in behind the various pieces. I had found the holes and can reach in from the top to feel the nuts but can't see them. Good point on the wobble socket, I will try with that and go up through the sizes until I get a fit. I have a full set of manuals and have been studying the Parts breakdowns to see what should be there, but with machine of this age, who knows what has gone on in the past. I know what I have done but can't account for the 23 yrs before that... Xpack, Thanks for posting those pics for me, After reading your suggestion about the studs and nuts on the bottom of the rad and the holes in the casting below, I cleaned then out and did find the end of the studs. The frame surrounding the radiator came off yesterday and is in the pile of tools and parts around the front of the machine. My side panels had the custom cutouts like yours and 68Case's so removal was easy. Some of the Cage Nuts came out or were missing, so they will have to be dealt with. The large nuts and bolts were a challenge for my cheap impact, but some PB Blaster and letting the compressor catch up and out they came. A cheater bar on my offshore 3/4 drive ratchet got the last couple. I did break a few of the hydraulic lines and drained them off, hoping to get the last fittings today. What a mess... A couple are at the limit of my tool sizes so are a work in progress. I'll get the pump shaft spline measurement and pics up at the end of the day. For those of you following this along, the plan today is to get the radiator off, remove the hydraulic pump and any remaining hydraulic pumbing. The on to the power steering pump, generator ect. so I can get it back out of the shop for yet another cleaning. Once its back inside, I have to put together the stand to support the tourque tube and prepare to split it off at the bellhousing. I'm making a list of other repairs required but don't want to get too far off track and will try to stay focused on the engine removal and dismantle. xpack, I did drain as much of the fluids as possible, including the shuttle and will be ready with pans to catch anything that spills, and I know it will. I put a large sheet of poly on the floor and have newspapers and floor dry at the ready. In between, I can pick up the oiled papers, wipe up the dirt and try to stay ahead of the worst. I ike a clean shop floor but can see it will be a challenge. The cab and loader frame cross tube will come off as I want to do a flush on the tank and inspect the fittings. I'm leaving them for now as I have to be ready to pull the engine when I have the help later in the week. I can do the rest at my leisure.
Yea it seems like the messes and cleanups are almost as bad as doing the task at hand....I seen that poly on the floor probably a good idea to keep the floor clean ....i am catching myself trying to remember things that may help you so forgive my getting ahead of where you are im just trying to save you some headaches when you get there not knowing when you will actually be there.....But on the front of the engine you will want to drive some wedges between the casting and the front end then put some sort of strap across the casting so the motor dont twist on you as your pulling it ....... heres a couple pics of the rigging i did.... And by all means dont be embarrassed about the messes in your pics just watch out for including those signs that seem to pop up in the pic that you forgot was there (like mine) :naughty:naughty hahahaha Besides i like seeing the mess as it helps to remind me how much i dont want to do this again :bash:Banghead:crying:drinkup:laugh Its way more fun watching someone else going threw this than doing it yourself .....Keep the pics coming its all good stuff.......Besides by the time your done with yours 68 will probably be convinced he wants to tackle his then we can watch his rebuild ( whats that strange noise i hear coming from 68's maybe the turbo better check it out hahaha)
Xpac.......I hear you loud n clear, but Im hoping that my rig will not pull any fast ones (you know she is called Greased Lightning), and cause some kind of ruckus inside the engine or tranny which requires me to go through this unnecessary pain and suffering. I prefer watching you experts do this, but know I will probably give it a go if necessary. Jusk.....dont worry about pics with a mess of greasy tools and crap everywhere.....as Xpac said, it reminds us of all the crap we went through in our various repairs. And actually I got some pretty good feedback when the Heavy Equipment people could see my repair work, with insufficient jack stands and OSHA nightmares going on.....their feedback made me take a pause and add some jack stands and be a bit more careful, at least some of the time. For example: And: But in all fairness, I do not live anywhere close to the San Andreas fault line......ha ha.
xpack, Funny you posted the pics with blocks on the front axle. When you first started your project postings, that was one of the things I saw and made a mental note that I needed to do that with mine, or risk it falling over... The nuts on the studs on the bottom of the rad turned out to be 9/16. The parts manual appears to be wrong. Both Melben and you advised they were offset and that was likely the reason I couldn't get a socket onto them. Once I had pulled the hydraulic pump, they were visible and came off easy. I checked the spline engagement for the pump drive coupling and mine is a bit over 3/4 but that's it. The splines look good and the last time it was off was maybe 30 yrs ago to change the fan belt. 68case, you must live a charmed life, as when I first saw your picture on the blocks and stands, I got that odd feeling that one sometimes gets when you are at the edge of a very long fall... We all learn as we go along and I now have a good selection of pressure treated 6x6 blocking, some 1" plywood square jacking pads, jack stands and a commercial duty floor jack. After some additional disassembly on mine, you have my well deserved respect for all the cleaning and painting you have done on yours. Every nook and cranny is filled with greasy crap, dirt and who knows what. When I finally get it all apart, I'm hoping to clean and paint also and will use yours and xpacks as the standard to reach up to. Today, I got the hydraulic pump off, cleared away some more hydraulic piping, removed the radiator, fan, drained the power steering pump and detached the lines, turned back all the wiring and generator to be out of the way for now and drained the block completely. I had some issue with the plugs used to close the hole for the block heater and the small one where the drain would normally be. With a bit of help from some special sockets I happen to have and the impact wrench, they came out. I will be going back with a proper drain and the block heater that I purchased last year but never got around to. As my back was telling it was enough for today, I cleaned up floor under the front and engine and put down some clean newspapers and moved all the soiled newspapers and paper towels outside. Here are a few pictures of the progress....
68 i hope you dont have to deal with any big stuff you have done a whole lot to that one of yours and it has definitely made for some great reading and info i have read a lot of your stuff and it helped me a lot with mine.Im sure we will all gain from each others problems sure is a good feeling knowing you have others you can lean on for this stuff as you know the manuals arent the greatest .....There is a art to some of the rigging we go threw to get the job done safely with limited supplys....osha would run out of citations if they seen half the crap i have done in the past........and present.....but at the end of the day the job has to get done somehow........
A couple of more pictures xpack, the spline picture didn't turn out as I don't have a fancy camera, or I need lessons. Its posted here anyway. Anyone know if the valve and hose shown just ahead of the injection pump would have gone to a tank type heater? I though that maybe the other end would have been to the hole that the stock block heater goes in. None of the other tractors I have seen have that fitting.
Jusk you are making great progress on that ol girl...... thanks for the info about the shaft sounds like both of ours only goes in 3/4 which just struck me as not deep enough but they have ran this way for a long time it must be enough..... Just a thought but because your going to be doing it anyway it might be easier to take the hit and remove the spacer pipe between the tank towers and the fuel tank if the cab allows for it.....It would make wrenching on the motor and other stuff a little easier.....But if you didnt want to i think there is room to do it without removal.......when you do decide to remove it take lots of pics of what the lines hook to and where they hook on those 2 steel hyd lines above the tank.....i didnt do a great job of that when i did mine and after i got it hooked up it didnt take long to realize it was backwards....I had to push loader control forward to raise it and back to let it down (dummy me)....... Mine dont even have a hole with a plug there i wonder because you have the cab if that was run back to a heater core in the cab at one time ?????? my neighbors 580b has a cab with the heater core im not sure how it is hooked up though...heres a pic of that area on mine......
Jusk something else i remember is there was no overflow hose on my radiator when i took it off but after studying it a little you could see where the original ran down the left side on the inside of your radiator..... if your in front of the tractor looking at the radiator on the left there are loops in the tin on the side for the original hose to feed threw to the bottom of the tractor i think there were 2 of them..You will see them i ran a new overflow hose all the way out the bottom and hanging a little below the tractor so i could see the end and if it leaks any it wouldnt get all over the tractor.....just another tip for reassembly......
Xpack, I was wondering about the cab heater but since it really isn't closed up, I don't think it would have been for a cab heater. Its got me interested as I have a tank heater that I originally wanted to hook up but couldn't figure out where to plumb it into. The rad hoses are too short to cut one into and there is no other block plug except for the one that the stock heater goes in. Now I have both sitting new in the box somewhere...:Banghead I will get the cross tube out of the loader frame, just was trying to get ahead on the engine removal preparation. I will do another cleaning tomorrow and then press on with stripping the starter, fuel system and anything else I can get off. I still need to put together the support frame that bolts up to the torque tube and will look at what I need eventually for the next split at the transmission. While cleaning up this morning, I did drain both shuttle plugs and was surprised how much oil came out. I didn't drain the torque convertor and expect some more from that unit when we split there. I'm enjoying this even though I wasn't really planning on doing more than some maintenance this year. I have a JD crawler that is needy and when you have a place on an island, the boat gets a couple of trips up for maintenance and bottom paint a week at a time, every year. This year we will have owned this one for 36 years and on the water, everything needs maintenance and replacement whether you use it or not. 68case, yours will be pleasure to work on as its so clean. I have to give you credit for all the work that has taken.:notworthy I'll be scraping another wheelbarrow full off by the time I eventually get to the backhoe attachment. Grease and oil, but at least its not too rusty... I have a bit of an advantage with the milder weather and a space to work inside. We don't get much winter and the temperatures run 45-50F. Still too cool to paint but sunny days like today, it gets tempting. You will be back to work on yours before you know it. Playing with my stuff gives me new respect for those on here who do or did make a living with this type of work. At my pace they would all have starved to death but managed to get her done and out the door. My sore back tells me that they earned their wages...
Jusk.....Yep, you are making great progress, and kicking butt against those gremlins who want to make the job hard on you. Im getting some great info. as I watch the progress. Yep, I can understand how my cinder blocks and cheap jackstands could put some chills down the spines of those who know better. Still wish I had a pic of me underneath the rig to give it a bit more "umph". ha ha. Painting......yes, sometimes all the grease and crud makes you wonder if all the work will ever end. It can be a daunting effort, and at times a job that would be easy to walk away from. But in the end, we can all take some pride in completing whatever portions we set out to do.......a complete restoration, or just a rebuild of certain components. Its even better when you crank up the old rig, and all systems are "go". My painting standard wasnt the highest, but I just tried to do the best with the stuff I had........and time will tell how the brush and roller technique holds up. Hey.....I see you have the wire off your Air Intake Heater plug. Are you planning on taking it out to examine/clean, and do you think it has been working properly? I guess it looks similar to a block heater, and I still want to take mine out and inspect and verify that it is heating. Also.....I was curious as to how dirty and black your Power Steering fluid was....mine was in pretty bad shape, but I think that Xpac had me beat. I guess its one of those things that people "put off" changing, and then the years go by until you forget that there is a P.Steering filter there.
Xpac.....Thanks.....All your work and comments have sure been a great help also.......and I hope this site stays up for many years to come so others can benefit from our learning experiences. You are right......we both occasionally do not follow OSHA rules, but we get the job done.......and we "take a lickin and keep on tickin", like the Timex watch. Glad you mentioned the radiator overflow......I need to check and add one if the old one is bad or missing.
Jusk.....Did you say "clean"? Oh no, now those gremlins are gonna be yanking and tugging at every last oil seal and gasket on Greased Lightning, hoping to cause leaks and drips all over. Well, the "clean look" will be shortlived, as we continue to work these old machines, doing the work that they love to do. In 25 years, other young rookies will have acquired our rigs and will be on this website taking pictures of our old and dirty and battered CKs and asking the experts how to do the required repairs.......and will probably be laughing at all the old pics and commentary that we made way back when. You are so right......those mechanics who worked on heavy equipment all their lives are a rare breed.......they had to be real sharp and have the strength of Hercules to do this work day in and day out. Hats off to them.....:notworthy
I worked on those tractors from new and there are no rubber mounts or cushions on the radiator studs.
Melben, Thanks, I had looked at the Parts book and couldn't find any rubber mountings. Mine will go back as I found them, Washers and nuts on the studs. As you had indicated, they were offset and 9/16. I just went down and looked at the Parts book and they are listed as 3/8. Once I pulled the pump, they were easy... Funny, when this one was new, I was just starting my apprenticeship. How the time has passed so quickly. We'll be looking for you and the others who know these old machines to keep us on the straight and narrow. Between those of you with professional knowledge and the rest of us who are finding out the hard way, maybe we can keep a few more running for many more years. I'm still concerned about what we will find when we open up the engine. A cracked block will change the game but I am committed (or should be) to getting this one running and working for me again. Thanks for all your input, not just for mine but for the rest of us too.
ok melben i guess thats why mine didnt have them ....there was one of the guys on my thread who had said they were supposed to have them but he must not have known for sure and i certainly didnt either... i put thin rubber washers on mine i cant see where they will hurt anything and may protect the radiator some thanks for the info....... Hey melben any idea what that valve and hose on jusk's water pump housing (in the previous pic) would be for ???????
Things are moving along, but slowly. Since the last posting, we got the cab off, removed the loader cross tube, fuel tank, lift cylinders, disconnected the steering hydraulics and removed the rear bolts holding the steering A frame to the engine bracket. Once everything was removed, it exposed a lot more dirt, and spilled hydraulic oil, so we pulled it outside for yet another wash down. Used the blow gun to dry most of the water off, and then back inside. We had planned to loosen off the bolts holding the front of the engine block to the cast piece that the front axle attaches to but once again, she is resisting us all the way. The two lower bolts are threaded blind into the casting and will need some special attention to remove. The other two have nuts visible, so some PB Blaster and they will come off. Failing that, heat on all of them should do the trick. We took my helper into town this morning, so am having couple of days off to get the stand put together that will support the torque tube once the engine is out.
Jusk.....Your making some amazing progress, and almost working at Xpac's whirling speed (like that Tazmanian Devil in the cartoons). Hope you can get the engine loose from those frozen w/o any trouble. :bash
68case, Its not going anywhere near xpack's pace. He would be putting it back together by now... I think you had mentioned the hydraulic steering fluid and how dirty it might be. Have to report that mine was like the other hydraulic fluid and the filter was reasonably clean, so I can't claim the prize. Marie must have put a voodoo whammy on me, because my ankle is still swollen after 5 weeks and the other day, I put out my back reefing on a 6ft cheater bar to get the pump fitting off. All the work in the post above was done by my grandson. Nice to have someone young, strong and willing on the tools. He won't be back out again for a couple of weeks and we better have the engine out by then.... I'm going to wait for the verdict on the engine before getting into the shuttle and rear seal.
hey jusk looking good man im with 68 awesome progress at this pace you will have her apart in no time,,,,i feel your pain with the constant cleanup and the seemingly neverending oil spills they make a big mess of everything .......those blind treaded bolts i have wrapped them with a hammer before and had them come loose sometimes.... short of that i think heat will be your answer.....I had one break on my loader arm.... the front one that has a clamp for the steel hyd line....i tried everything to get the remainder of the bolt out of that nut thats welded on the loader frame i finally cut the darn thing off and welded a barrel nut in its place.... jusk i worked on mine today to and maybe its just me but the foot throttle pedal on mine seems uncomfortable like its positioned at the wrong angle where your toes actually hit the pedal to me it seems like it is to close to the floorpan if you wouldnt mind would you measure yours from the floorpan to the top of the pedal where your toes would be.... yours looks like it is up a lot farther than mine im curious now if something is wrong with mine......thanks.....
Jusk sorry to hear about the ankle and your back .....once i figure out the right concoction:stirthepot to mix in the new shot glass 68 hooked me up with i will email you the ingredients the current blends have the wrong kind of mushrooms in it and makes you see psychedelic .........on the other hand that might be what the dr ordered ........:cool2:laugh:laugh
68case, its not the Tasmanian Devil around here, it would be the wild racoon or raucous red squirrel, but pretty much the same idea... We never seem to get enough speed up to get airborne and something else breaks (me). xpack, Ha ha, There is definitely drugs and alcohol involved. I like the shot glass, it would fit an ice cold Akvavit preferably from my home town of Aalborg. Well, actually across the harbour but close enough. Or maybe out of a horn or something to fit the heritage? I'm hoping to get rolling again in a couple of days and get the rest dismantled. Thanks for the tip on the heat, I figured to clean out the combustibles in the holes above where those bolts are and put the rosebud to them there. A hit with the impact or my now famous 6 ft cheater should get them out. Cunning and deceit trumph caution and reason every time... I went down and measured the peddle, from the top end to the floor plate is 5". I can check the linkage lengths tomorrow if they will help figure out your differences. The manual has little on how to set this up but may be worth a look for comparison. 'Wild' racoon, this is what happens when you go on 'Island Time'.... patience is a virtue.
jusk that little fellow looks pretty comfortable laying on the rail heck with all that wildlife maybe you can get them trained to help you with the wrenching like ben helped grizzly adams ??? We had adopted a couple of these little guys years back and one of them i found by our pond and brought him up to our front yard at first he seemed healthy and after i got checking him over i noticed magots all over him so i took the water hose to him and got tons of those off of him after that i took him back to the woods and turned him loose not knowing if he was carrying some kinda disease i didnt want him around our kids and animals.I always wondered if he made it or not funny thing was i didnt see any obvious sores or a reason for them to be all over him.... I will get a measurement of mine tomorrow and see what i got mine just seems like your foot is to flat to be comfortable i also have noticed that i have to push mine down a ways before i get any response out of the throttle and that never really seemed right to me.I am trying to get all the little stuff done on mine so she is ready to go i am down to greasing everything and then figuring out if there is something to the throttle or not and the rtd i also ordered bushings from Dale for the swing cylinders where they pin to the backhoe im going to change them to try to tighten up the slop there which isnt real bad but i want to fix it before it gets worse.......... Another thing about all that oil that seems to neverend if yours is like mine i have lost count of how many leaks i have found on mine now that its back up and going and i have cleaned and painted everything on one hand its great finding them to get them fixed on the other it is a pita......but they sure do show now......
Xpac......Ive been meaning to ask you the same question about the floor gas pedal. I have it hooked up and working, but when I "put tha peddle to tha meddle", it does not give the engine that many rpms....so I need to do some tweeking too. The hand throttle gets the rpms up to a decent level, probably twice as much as the floor pedal. There is an adjusting screw under the pedal that prevents you from exceeding max RPMs.......I think I need to adjust that off, or do something so there is quick action, not pushing down 3/4 of the way before the engine increases RPMs. You can see, I barely have 2 1/2 inches clearance: A blurry pic from underneath the floor pan: While I was taking pics, I have anudder question for you. In this pic you can see where my RTDig linkage has been rubbing with the wire-wrapped hydraulic line. Does your linkage also rub here? Oil leaks.....yep, I am finding leaks on mine too, and may have not noticed except for everything being clean and freshly painted. I was seeing drops of hydraulic fluid around the gas pedal, and even back towards the fender. It appears that the old fat hydraulic line that connects under the Hydraulic Pressure Gauge is leaking, and I need to replace it: (out of ram space....will send in next post). This pic shows where the linkage connects up under the fuel tank. There is a large spring that is hanging down and not hooked to anything, and another long weak spring that appears to be jerry-rigged to make the gas pedal work. Any idea where that big spring is supposed to hook up too?
Oil leaks.....yep, I am finding leaks on mine too, and may have not noticed except for everything being clean and freshly painted. I was seeing drops of hydraulic fluid around the gas pedal, and even back towards the fender. It appears that the old fat hydraulic line that connects under the Hydraulic Pressure Gauge is leaking, and I need to replace it: (out of ram space....will send in next post). The fat line that connects under the Hydraulic Oil Gauge: Also, the Return To Dig Hydrualic Cylinder (is that the name?) leaves a small stream of fluid after operating for a couple hours....nothing major, but something that will need repairing down the road: I also have a small leak around the fuel filters.....leaving a small puddle after sitting. But on the bright side, the oil pan which has 3 missing bolts, and which has never been off in 30 years is not leaking a drop.
Jusk.......Well, youre still making great progress, worn-out back and all. Your lucky to have the young Taz Devil there to help you on and off. And you have all those critters watching and giving emotional support......and hopefully you dont have to rinse them off with the hose like Xpac did (poor ole racoon, probably got those bugs from associating with the wrong crowd. Xpac probably gave him a stiff drink from the Voodoo Queen mug, and that concoction cured him). Xpac......hey, dont forget to send me a sampling of that fine concoction you are brewing up. But just dont drive to Flint to get the water for the mix...ha ha. I say the Governor should be forced to drink that stuff for a year or two.
Xpack, those guys are pretty intelligent and can open doors, undo latches and likely learn to use tools from the box. They are fun to have visit and when we sit outside in the evenings will come and hang out under the patio heater. We have a rule about them getting close and discourage that because they can be very defensive, especially of their young ones. I don't think I could ever get one picked up without a live trap, so that one you had must have been in trouble to let you near. Maybe got poisoned and was going for water. The maggots were getting ready for the end. You did the right thing to move him off and let nature run its course. I am discovering leaks from drips now that we are sitting in the shop, with paper under it. Some are from places I didn't want to look at but will put them on the list. If not this time, then next winter after I get the projects caught up. For slop on the swing, make sure the trunnion bearing plates on the top and bottom of the swing cylinders are tight and don't move when you apply swing peddle one way or the other. If you have someone swing slowly and you watch from safe zone, you may see them moving a bit. On mine, I replaced all the bolts and torqued them and solved the issue. The bushings were tight but its also something to check. The Repair manual has some very limited information on the throttle adjustments and I will have to sit and read again. If the linkages have been off and adjusted to compensate range at some time in the past, it may be why you foot peddle is low, same like 68case. I will had down there and look for the spring 68case posted about and take a peek at my linkage from the peddle to where ever it goes. All new territory to me.
68 i will send you some of that concoction but be forewarned it will make you think that chrome bird is running your your rig hahahahah Yea that weasel is just like the others trying to pass the buck while he drinks the finest water available i agree make him drink that poison its real sad for the people who should be able to trust their water supply and to add icing to it they want people to pay some kind of percentage for a water bill for the water they use to flush their toilets ect......and they cant even drink it .....Maybe they should have him and those responsible carry buckets of that crap to flush peoples toilets and if they get thirsty they have all the water they need.........
jusk on your throttle do you have to push it down far before it raises the rpm or does yours respond as soon as the pedal moves.Im going to get mine out today and grease her and look at the throttle but on mine the hand and foot throttle have to move quit a ways before it starts to respond and i remember when getting help from pumpguy on that throttle shaft the lo/hi idles screws were to be set at .... low idle = book called for 500rpm pumpguy said he sets them at 600rpm and thats what i set mine to hi idle =2200 rpm and i think mine reaches 2200 rpm when i have the throttle mashed to the floor i will check today.....68 are you getting 2200 ???? i will post some findings and pics tonight thanks
xpack, my recollection is that the throttle responded pretty much right away, either by the foot plate or the hand throttle. I can't say what the rpms were but the repair manual has that info and some adjustment guidelines, but not much. I'll be paying attention here, as whe I go home next week, the injection pump goes with me for the 'Big' one at our best local shop. I'd consider the pumpguy but the border, shipping, GST and dismal exchange makes the quote sight unseen at 'less than $800' pretty much the choice. He will pop test my long stored new injectors at the same time, included.
This pic shows where the linkage connects up under the fuel tank. There is a large spring that is hanging down and not hooked to anything, and another long weak spring that appears to be jerry-rigged to make the gas pedal work. Any idea where that big spring is supposed to hook up too? View attachment 150574 [/QUOTE] 68case -The large spring should be attached to the bolt inside of where the other spring is wired at the top. The Parts manual and the Repair manual have pretty good pictures of these pieces and in the Repair manual you can find some information on adjustments specifically for the diesel setup. If either of you or xpack need these to be posted, let me know and I will get them up later today. In the normal idle position with the pedal up, the lever under the floorboard is parallel with the plate on mine. If the idle and full throttle rpms are set correctly, you may just need to adjust the rod length that goes to the foot pedal.
The parts diagram and a partial from the repair manual. If you need the text, I'll have to scan it later.
The Operators Manual 188 Specs gives engine idle as 600rpm and full load (torque convertor) as 2100rpm and no load (torque convertor) as 2250rpm, so you are pretty much there. For the standard clutch, the full load says 1900rpm and the full no load as 2060rpm, not sure why the difference but a little less isn't a bad thing as too much and they can go BOOM, with Abe winging his way to Marie's world...
So here is pics of my throttle spring and after seeing the one on jusk's tractor i believe his is right here is a shot from the side you enter the tractor i will try to hook mine up like jusk's spring on the next nice day hey jusk where the bottom of my spring is attached which im sure is wrong ....do you have anything in that hole on yours???? And something i notice between the 3 is 68 dont have that linkage on his where the bottom of my spring is hooked jusk and mine has the linkage ????weird...
68 mine dont have a bolt under the throttle pedal like yours theres no hole either but when i was reading threw the owners manual it shows one being there..If i understand it right when you have it mashed to the floor the throttle shaft has the high idle screw you set so you cant over rev the engine as long as yours has the hi idle screw on the throttle shaft where it comes out the pump and you have it set right i would think there is no need for the one under the foot pedal but then again why was it put there???? my pedal is 4" from the floorpan up and i found out it has to be pushed down 2" before it starts to revup i will adjust the linkage to tighten it up and i guess i need to wear the glasses when im reading the rpm the low idle is 600 which is good but the high idle is almost 1800 once i get the spring and linkage right i will see where it is at .... low idle high idle
68 thanks for bringing up the rtd hose rubbing mine was i just loosened fittings in pic and twisted hose and retightened all clear now
Jusk & Xpac.....Thanks for all the detailed pics and feedback. Now I can clearly see how that spring should be hooked up. It looks that spring needs to fit inside that "C" shaped bracket, and then slide onto that bolt. It seems to me an overly complicated design just to have a spring pulling back on the gas pedal.....way over-engineered. Guess the prior owner thought the same thing and thats where that long spring came from. And its a pain to get too......as I recall, there is a nut on the other side of that "C" bracket that has to be held in order to tighten the spring bolt. Looks like my pedal needs to be adjusted up a good 2 inches. As Xpac says, this is something that can wait for a warm spring day to tinker with. Xpac....your RTDig hose was rubbing too on that coiled wire-wrapped hose......I did not see any way to adjust to make some clearance, but will look again.......ok, maybe just twisting the hose outward will do it......i will try that. Hey, I see you replaced that fat hose that hooks into the Hydraulic Pressure gauge......what type did you get? Maybe ordered from Dial at TractorStuff? I need to read all the posts again.....did you solve the problem with your RTDig adjusting ring, and allowing it to operate properly? Looked like yours was adjusted all the way to the bottom, while mine was up a few inches.
Xpac....good pics of idle and fast idle.....I will check mine too next time.
I bought that suction hose at a local hyd shop but i think you can get it at a napa dealer to i posted about the rtd on my thread just a bit ago.....
from what jusk posted yours should be around 2000 hi idle where his and mine are around 2200 im not sure why the difference but there is .........
As stated above, it may have been broken off in the past. Mine does not have anything attached to that arm.
it is amazing what some people do to these things just to put a bandaid on them or take the easy way out only to have it bite them in the a** later....I will correct this as soon as i can ....I was told my engine had been rebuilt when i bought mine it supposedly had 500-600 hrs on it when i got it and i had seen where they took some shortcuts instead of doing it right ...
jusk/68 i ordered a new spring today as mine looks screwed up from the way it has been hooked i ordered from dale he has to get it from case....when it gets here i will put it on and adjust the linkage.......
10-4 Xpac.......I need to creep up under the fuel tank and try to get that stiff spring put back the way it should be, and adjust the gas pedal to be higher up like yours and Jusk's. Ive been running around with the peddle almost to the meddle, and that aint right. I see you had some fun running the Voodoo Queen thru the mud today. I guess it will soon be time to bring some gravel in for the front of the shop garage doors. Good to hear the new oil is making a difference in the shuttle.
68case & xpack, Although there may be other adjustment issues, I think once the correct springs are in the original placement, you should have ample pedal to go from idle to high rpm. The stop bolt under the pedal keeps you from reaching terminal velocity on the engine . On mine, that bolt seems to be correctly adjusted and I will leave it there until we have it all back together for fine tuning.:bash I spent some of today cleaning up around the shop and got out the plasma cutter and welder to put together a stand to support the torque tube once the engine is out. If the paint is dry by tomorrow, I will install it and get a picture to post. The next job is to get those pesky bolts out of the casting at the front of the engine and roll away the axle and wheels. Then the fun can begin....:Banghead
Jusk i am gonna wait till i have that new spring installed hoping like you said it will change things in a good way. I just got my shop cleaned up today from all the messes i made while doing mine i lost track long ago how many times i did this ......Hopefully those bolts come out alright for you no doubt you will get them one way or the other......
I spent a bit of time the other day and put together a stand to support the torque tube after the engine is removed. The Case model is fancier with a single caster in the middle but I didn't have the flat bar or a caster, so made mine up with two adjustable scaffold legs, some box tubing and scrap angle. It bolts in the threaded holes in the bottom and sides of the casting and can be adjusted if necessary for the engine reinstallation. I chose to use two legs which will allow me to put a rolling floor jack in the middle in the event I need to reposition it or move it all to the back of the shop. As long as the loader frames are still attached, I will support them separately with stands. This afternoon, I have been cleaning out all the crud from the from the front casting so I can heat the bolts without having the grease and litter in there catch fire. I found that there are actually holes in the bottom of each pocket, so the shop vac placed underneath will pull all the stuff down as I get it loose.
Jusk thats a good looking stand you built there and should support that good while you remove the engine...if you decide to pull the torque tube to work on that shuttle i just put a jack stand under each backhoe support and that held the loader and rear end good and it allows you to scoot in between the loader tanks with one of those sit down carts on wheels to work that seal on the rear end.......heres a pic of where the jack stand was on each side...... One more thing you may want to think about is the steering column if you decide to pull that torque tube you will most likely want to leave the column that seems to be the lesser of the evils i ended up hooking a small ratchet strap to the ceiling and the column to hold it up out of the way if you look close in the pic you will see it.....
Jusk......very nice custom-made torque tube support. Beats using cynder blocks, bricks, and old pieces of lumber.
Xpac......man, you had all kinds of action going on in your shop, all at the same time. Funny seeing the steering assembly dangling from the cieling by one strap and the torque tube dangling with that nice electric winch (I always wanted a set-up like that), and then there is the oil-filled yellow air breather dangling from the cieling in the back, and the poor ole skeleton of Voodoo Queen with those vacant-looking eyes. Then you have a couple more yeller parts dangling from the cieling on the right, unless they are just your ordinary, turn-of-tha-mill UFOs. Lots of action going on!
xpack, 68 case - I wanted a stand that was attached to the casting in case I decide to move the whole thing later. The load is transferred to the adjustable feet and if I need to, I can roll my floor jack under the middle for a move. If I didn't have the feet I probably would just have done the 6x6 and jack stands like in the picture xpack posted. After a break this afternoon, I decided to give those pesky bolts another go. My Chinese 3/4 drive ratchet and socket, the old 6' cheater, some PB Blaster and out they came. I had soaked them the other day and again this morning. Didn't even have to air up the compressor for the impact this time. I rolled the front end outside and managed to oil pretty much everything in between from the steering cylinders. Next time, I'm buying threaded plugs from the hydraulic shop to close all these open hoses and pipes. What a mess but its done and cleaned up. We'll see tomorrow but I think I will have the engine off and sitting on the hydraulic lift table, where I can sit beside it and strip it down. I'll be looking for your guidance on stripping the torque tube before going in for the shuttle. While laying around under the tractor, I noticed some oil drips near the brake housings, so that will need some investigation. I wasn't planning to get in back there but it may be inevitable. When I look at the pictures that both 68case and xpack have posted, I am a bit discouraged at how dirty mine still is and how much work it will take to bring back the paint and reassemble the whole thing. One day at a time.... Here's where I left off... The jack is only to make me feel better about leaving it over night. It sits just fine on the torque tube without additional supports. much like an engine stand would do.
68 Yea i love having that hoist im thinking that was the day i installed the torque tube.....I already have a 24ft i beam for the new shop but still need to get another electric hoist for it and was forced to buy this car lift its a 2 post 9000# rotary lift and i picked it up for $ 700.00. I was pretty when happy when i got it....I talked to a mechanic friend of mine and he said the rotary lift is top of line he has had many different brands over the years and said i would be a fool not to grab it so i brought it home with plans of installing it in the new shop which has 12' ceilings......heres a couple pics...
Jusk your right one day at a time but i think your making very good time on yours and lots of progress im curious as to how that front end looks and how it mounted if you have any pics of it as you know i didnt remove mine..Hopefully you wont have to do this again so you wont have the mess again.....it does make for a grease pit that seems to never end .....just curious you said you noticed oil drips by the brake housings did you have good brakes ???? The reason i ask is mine had no brakes when i got it and stupid me didnt take any pics of the repairs but i remember seals behind the brake assembly inside the brake housings they seal the rear end oil from entering the brake housings and you know what happens when oil gets on dry brake systems....I replaced the seals on both sides and installed new shoe and disc liners they come with rivets that i got off of ebay i think 68 did his to and i think he has pics of his....Mine will lock the tires up if i push it hard enough now....
Jusk after looking closer at your pics i see you have the shaft sticking out of the crank pulley that drives the pump from what i have read and after talking to Dale apparently where that shaft slides into that coupling or whatever its called is where they have a lot of problems with them stripping out the teeth you may want to pull that shaft if you havent already and look that over while you can just to make sure its good .....
xpack, The Rotary lift is tops and a steal at the price. I had thought about a 4 post for my other shed but probably will make do with what I have to work with. I have the steel for a 6 post overhead crane that will span the shop and run the full length. I also scored a 2 ton Budget 120V hoist and the trolley for cross beam. If I ever get caught up, it will be the next project. I just wish it was up and running now. You will love the lift, and it makes working on most stuff much easier. Marie will still need other means but at 7 tons you wouldn't expect to put her on the lift anyway. I had brakes, if you call them that. Even when they are 'good', they aren't so good but you learn how to work with that, especially on steep ground like around here. Some years ago, I had a local guy working the machine to pay for repairs, and while he was running down a driveway and applied the brakes, one side locked up. He nearly turned the machine over and was some scared of it after that. I took the brakes apart, no apparent oil leaks, reasonable lining and disc but the balls and the ramps they run in were worn enough so that when the brakes were applied, the balls on one side overcebtred and locked up. The fix was to toss the lot and go back new. Since then, no issues but the seals may now be leaking. We'll see eventually. In for a penny, in for a pound, or a ton as I'll find out. Thanks for the heads up on the splined pump shaft and coupling. I'll separate those and see how it looks. The part that is already off looks good but the other end at the pump by not be,
Jusk.......Great job on the tear-down. Good to hear the PB Blaster did its job, and those bolts came right out. Dumb question from me: If a backyard mechanic didnt have a way to remove the engine and work on in a different location in the shop, would it be possible to just tear her down while still attached to the torque tube, and with a good brace under it? Say you are just doing a head/piston/ring job, would you have enough room to work? Im real curious as to what you uncover when you begin to take the diesel apart. Also curious about that big oil pump screen in the oil pan....if it was building up with crud after all these years. Keep the pictures coming to keep your side-kicks happy........but dont kick us too hard, as we are nothin but plain ole Knuckleheads. Hey......The picture showing the front of the engine....I notice about a 3 inche tube welded to the left hydraulic fluid resevoir, and it has a bolt threaded in. I dont think I have that on mine......any idea what it is for?
Xpac......Man, that rotary lift has me watering at the mouth......Im thinking that when Trump gets elected, he should help "Make America Great Again" by having a new industry up near Detroit begin making these and ship one out to each American household. Those Americans who do not want one, can then elect to have obamma kare instead, or maybe a one year supply of golf balls. That was a great deal for the lift......maybe in my next life I will have one.
Yep......I have a ton of pics of the brake repair, and I think I did a seperate thread on this site showing some good pointers. Let me know if you want some other pics, and I can dig them up.
68case, the tube and bolt are the clamp/support for the high pressure tube from the hfydraulic pump. Mine was missing some bits and had a washer wearing its way through the side of the tube. I will attempt a silver solder repair on the divet and if that doesn't take, its off to the hydraulic shop for a new one; There is lot of room to work on the engine if you didn't want to do the full overhaul. The head and valve train, pistons, rods and liners can all be done with the block still 'inframe'. Pan can come off for bottom end inspection. You can't do cam and bearings, main and rod journals without a lot of extra issues. If the bearings a known good, you can leave the crank in place. The pros on here would guide you on what was specifically needed. My choice was to tear it down and refresh everything rather than find another tractor. Depending on the condition of the castings and results of the magnaflux check, will decide if I am looking for another block or a rebuilt long block. If I had to go that way, a trip to Oregon will be in my future. I'm hoping not but its yet to be proven. The head will get done, valves etc, and both block and head checked for true. The major overhaul kit includes all the parts and gaskets for the jib and the inframe has a few less bits. I will have the machine shop build up the important stuff and I can bolt up the rest. Once I get the front half back together, I will look at some of the other issues on the tractor itself and then move on to the loader and backhoe. I'm hoping to be done before later spring. What year is another matter altogether. Thanks for the offer of your pics, as by then I am wondering how many extra parts I will have accumulated, left over from somewhere
Jusk yea i kept fearing leftover parts/nuts/bolts ect..... Thats kinda a guideline whether you got it back together right or not for sure and if one little bolt is left over out of all the ones you removed and replaced it drives me nuts trying to figure out where it goes.....Like 68 has said take a s---ton of pics and when you think you dont need a pic of something take 10 of them of that area especially when its something as simple and complicated as right/left/inside/outside/horizontal/vertical fenders they got 68 and me and you just wouldnt think they would until you reassemble them then i cought myself scratching my head and seeing if 68 had pics i think we both got a laugh out of that one.......Speaking of bolts heres one more tip Dale told me about the Rear bolt on the rocker arm and shaft assembly is supposed to be the only bolt that has a hole in it and that bolt is the one that feeds oil to the rockers so when you get to that point its something to make note of.......When you get there if you take a pic of it i would like to see it i never removed mine i just adjusted the valves while changing the gasket.... On that steel line thats wore a bit .....The 2 steel lines running down the top of the loader arm on mine had wore threw in a couple spots and was all the way threw i just brazed them and havent had a problem with them...That silver soldier i havent really worked with much but i have heard for the right conditions it is good stuff is it softer or harder than brazing???? i have also heard that the silver soldier is a little expensive but i have never bought any.....
Jusk.....Oh, Ok......that makes sense, being the clamp support for the high pressure line. Had me wondering. Sounds like your rig is gonna be like a new one when you are done......keep up the great work.
EXTRA PARTS??? you guys are funny.. as ALL GOOD MECHANICS KNOW.... "theres no such thing as EXTRA PARTS.. just UN-nesasary ones"... LOL
Today was a bit of a change of direction. I had intended to pull the engine whole and strip it later, but after looking at it, decided that it was just as easy to take off the bits while I could stand next to it. Leaning over wasn't going to work very long for me with back issues. So, I stripped the intake manifold and discovered that #2 port was full of water, and #1 looks like it has been wet but the intake is open. Likely the cylinder is full of water. Given that discovery, I proceeded with removing the fuel system. The lines for the injection pump, return lines, the pump itself, and fuel filter assembly. Then, I pulled the water pump to look for the bolt that threads into the head. None was present, so I'm not the first in here. Off came the water passage cover, more bolts, heat on one, the Injection pump gear, idler and journal. Once I had those clear, I removed the rest of the bolts on the timing cover, including two in by the idler gear. The coupling for the hydraulic pump came off and exposed the crank pulley nut. It didn't want to come off, so the torch came out again and with a bit of persuasion, it came right off. The pulley wasn't coming off either, and after looking for my puller, finding that it didn't fit, I tapped lightly on the rim and it came right off. The timing cover was stuck on by the gasket, but my trusty mechanics bar got it loose. Note to self, remove the power steering pump first as once the timing cover is off, there's nothing to hold it in place... I was planning to pull the timing gear on the camshaft but discovered the socket I needed was in a bucket along with my spare boat trailer bearings and hub. Its 2 hrs away from here, so decided to move on to the head. I pulled the valve cover and it is obvious that there has been water in the oil. The cover is coated in goopy sludge and some on the valve train as well. I finished up my day by cleaning off some of the stuff on the valve train and all the oily spills around the work area. It all goes into feed bags and outside for burning later. I am very cautious about leaving oil and diesel soaked rags inside overnight. I'd hate to lose both the shop, tools, truck and tractor because I was lazy and stupid... Tomorrow, I'll see if I can borrow a socket to fit the timing gear from a neighbour who has more tools than I do and get that gear off. Then the valve train, head bolts and head if everything is going well. The pan will come off while its in the air and easy to do. 68case, You can remove the pan without having to take too much apart. The bolts are accessible from the bottom, and after the steering a frame is removed, it should drop down. Mine is cast but from what I see in the service manual, the procedure is similar.
Here is the evidence that it likely has a blown head gasket and possibly other issues. Time will tell, One day at a time...
pumpguy, I like that one. On other jobs like my army M37, I used cardboard file boxes and cleaned each bit and stored them by sub-assembly in the boxes until I was ready to put that part together again. Some of those boxes are still in the corner with stuff in them. I'll get to it sooner or later. We still use the truck... For this 580CK project, I went with zip locks of various sizes and as I disassemble each section, I have been labelling the baggie and dumping the parts into it. I bought a number of Rubbermaid totes and will stash the baggies in them until I get back to running them all through the parts washer. Judging from the machine, over the years there have been a few pieces removed and never put back. So far, the only one on the engine has been the mystery bolt that goes into the head from behind the water pump. We'll see how many more I find, or not...
Speaking of bolts heres one more tip Dale told me about the Rear bolt on the rocker arm and shaft assembly is supposed to be the only bolt that has a hole in it and that bolt is the one that feeds oil to the rockers so when you get to that point its something to make note of.......When you get there if you take a pic of it i would like to see it i never removed mine i just adjusted the valves while changing the gasket.... xpack, I was aware that the bolt was hollow to oil the rocker arm shaft. I'll get a decent picture so you can see what its about.... On that steel line thats wore a bit .....The 2 steel lines running down the top of the loader arm on mine had wore threw in a couple spots and was all the way threw i just brazed them and havent had a problem with them...That silver soldier i havent really worked with much but i have heard for the right conditions it is good stuff is it softer or harder than brazing???? i have also heard that the silver soldier is a little expensive but i have never bought any.....[/QUOTE] xpack, I think the silver solder is a bit harder, as I use Silflos ? silver solder to repair band saw blades and have done some firearm repairs of obsolete bits with it. The right heat, flux and solder and its the cats ass, and yes its not cheap. I do braze a lot of stuff and could likely do a decent repair on that pipe with it. We'll see when I actually get to look at it and decide then. Thin material is always a problem and oil soaked stuff a special treat. If I have forgotten to post anything specific for you guys or anyone else, let me know as I have a lot of pics that I didn't put up here.
Just courious.. did you remove the pump from the shaft or the gear from the shaft and leave the shaft in the inj. pump?? Reason I ask is> fuel will look like that also.. and if you have already removed the drive shaft from the pump.. run your finger inside the brass tube and feel for any grooves.. if they are present, it might just be aireated fuel, mixed with the oil.. Heres hopein' its not a cracked head..:drinkup Another tip.. send the dr. shaft along with your pump to the rebuilder.. that way, you don't have to fiddle fart around with putting the seals on and the dr. sh. back in the pump.. Cuz if you roll a seal on installation and you don't catch it within a few minutes.. BYE, BYE new engine..
pumpguy, I pulled the pump from the shaft. I did a check and the bore of the brass tube in the pump is smooth, no grooves. I did remove the shaft from the gear after and will be sure to send it along with the pump, for just the reason you mentioned. I have read your posts on this subject and without the spiffy Case tool, wasn't going to attempt it. I have enough places to take a wrong turn without adding to the fun... Fuel in the crankcase and new bearings, what a mix... As for a cracked head, I'll take that over a block if I can choose. The machine shop will make sure either way. Thanks for the pointers, its input from you and the others that will make this turn out well. This thread isn't as entertaining as some on here but we'll try to have some fun too with the other CK guys.
Jusk your making great headway on the engine and yea why not tear it down as much as you can with it attached to the bell housing and get most of the stuff out of the way i think its a good idea the bell housing makes for a great engine stand for the externals. Thats quite a bit you got tore off her and i love the ziplock baggie idea thats what i did when i could as well. That oil would be great if you were making milkshakes but not in this case i know it sucks seeing that but now your getting close to seeing the real answers and that has to be a little bit of a relief..Im sure you cant wait to see what the real causes for the milkshake oil are im hoping it is just the head gasket to keep the cost down for you but you wont know until you get there.......I have rebuilt a few gas motors threw the years but have never been in a diesel i am real curious about the cylinder sleeves and whatever seals are in there i have only read some on these but have never seen how there setup... Thanks for the education on the silver soldier i have done different types and methods of welding but really no kinda training just picking up bits and pieces from guys i know and theres one i know who just real smart and good with a variety of welding...I have always told people who needed something welded by me i cant guarantee the weld but i can guarantee i will reweld it hahaha I think this thread is entertaining where else can you go to rebuild one of these and have deer pull a loader, watch a coon napping in the sun, heck im waiting for bigfoot to get put on the payroll to remove the engine in one hand and the torque tube in the other one, and if thats not enough to entertain just name that ole tractor and the next thing you know is you have a chrome bird dirty dancing on your freshly painted hood with some chrome chick with orange wings or you will be talking about skid marks in your britches relating to your tractors name or a chrome bird loosing his nuts and being dressed up as santa clause ..So a word to the wise my friend if you choose to name the old girl choose the name wisely or it may get a little weird on your thread as well:badidea .........So whats her name hahaha..........:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh
Xpac......Man, you should have replaced ole Johnny Carson years ago......If they had known you existed, then Jay Leno would never have happened, and poor ole Jay would not have his fancy garage and tons of antique vehicles. I can hear ole Ed McMahan anouncing every night, "Herrrrrrrrrrrrres X-Pac", and you would have Knuckleheads like us come on and give hillarious stories about our Voodoo Queens, Greased Lightnings, and Jusk's _________. (We will get a name from Jusk sooner or later....ha ha). Jusk.....great pics and description of what is going on. I did a rebuild on my 27 Nash straight 6, and the darn water pump packing material allowed the water to leak back into the oil pan and I started and drove her with a couple gallons of water mixed in the oil. What a mess.....I had to do a major disassembly and cleaning/flushing to get every trace of water out, and seeing that white slimy goo all over the rockers on a fresh rebuild is not a way to have a good day. Now I drain the radiator after running it just be safe. Your thread will be a huge source of information if I ever have to follow in your path....thanks for being so detailed. Hey, I love your large cookie sheet.....I have three just like that which come in real handy in catching crap and cruds of all sorts, and as a tray for cleaning parts when my metal paint roller tray is too small.
68 I believe that us knuckleheads have a obligation to keep a smile on :laughJusks:laugh face during his bonding time with his tractor ....besides it may help keep his mind off of the explosives as he is wrenching on these bolts and rods that just wont cooperate :bash:Banghead:guns....
188D Head Removal Posted in the correct thread... Today, I got down to the real reason that I'm tearing into this old girl. I had water issues with starting and then water in the oil. Its sat since last May, until recently when I got it inside and began removing stuff in order to get at the engine and remove it of a major overhaul. Previously, I removed the manifolds, injection pump and other fuel components. Today, I got the valve rocker assembly off and removed the nuts on the studs in the head. It was stuck pretty good, but a quick separate post, a search on this forum and I found there were two studs that had a dowel ring to align the head to the block. I applied some PB Blaster to the space around the studs on the exhaust side and after a bit, used a hardwood block and BFH to loosen it up. With some wood blocks, I worked the head up off the studs and slid it over to where I could lift it to the floor. A careful inspection of the head gasket and head didn't show any obvious leakage between the cylinders, which is what I expected. The cylinders have been wet, and are now rusty. Its not a big issue, as it is all being replaced anyway. The head will need to be rebuilt as several valves are stuck, and the injectors will not come out. I don't have access to the puller but will see if I can get the free. I have the new injectors already, so these will be junked. I found a few of the studs loose enough to take out by hand and have loosened all the ones on the intake side and centre of the head. The ones on the exhaust side aren't going anywhere, so I will have to work on that. I also dropped the pan to see what wreckage was waiting there, but other than a layer of emulsified oil and water in the bottom, the rest, from what I can see up inside, doesn't look bad at all. I'm leaving this for at least a couple of days but should get back here and into removing the block sometime next week. Once its on the floor, I can pull the pistons, rods, liner and strip anything else left on it before getting it to the shop in town. Thanks to those who offered some guidance in another post, which helped me get the head off.
Cylinders and pan
Xpac.......Thats a Big 10-4 from my back door........Roger, copy that. Jusk is getting plenty of "bonding time".
Jusk.....great information and pics again. I did not realize that these pistons had those recessed areas machined out.....interesting. So, you think it was a cracked block and not leakage past the head gasket? Do you recall the last time you had her running? Im curious what signs she gave of having these problems.....extra white smoke coming out the exhaust? Missing/running on 3 cylinders? Yep, that white muck in the bottom of your oil pan brings back fond memories......very fond.
jusk what a mess but you will turn it around what are you thinking the head or block is cracked... i think i remember you were planning on sending them out to have them checked and you know i think i read where they like to crack between the cylinders i wonder if thats what has happened with yours .....One things for sure now your getting down to the blood and guts of the engine and making great progress doing it....keep the info coming this will be valuable info for anyone who has to do this tear down nice job.....
xpack, I couldn't see any obvious leakage between the water jacket or cylinders. Once you lift the head off the block, a lot of oil seeps out and makes it more difficult to see anything but the big stuff. I thought a few of the studs were not as tight as I expected but they may have come loose when I put the impact to the nuts above the head. Those on the exhaust side are not coming out and I will still have to figure something out to remove them. The last time the tractor ran decent was a over a year ago. Then, I ran it out of fuel on a hill climb, put a couple of cans in, bled the system and it seemed ok. Its always smoked dark smoke and sooted a bit, so that may have been injectors. I did have new ones, just never got around to them. When I got into it this last spring, I found a couple of quarts of water in the oil pan. Did a flush with diesel, changed the filter and new oil. Never ran after that and because we went to Alaska and the Yukon for a couple of months, nothing got looked at until I started this up late last year. We will have both the head and the block magnafluxed to confirm the castings are good before spending any more on them. If OK, then the block will get decked, and the head milled to ensure they are true. Valve job. The overhaul kit will take care of most of the rest, once they tell me what the main and rod bearings look like so I het the right size. My immediate challenges are getting the rest of the studs out of the block and removing the gear on the front of the crank. Having the right sized tools would help but I am without for now. 68case, Ya, when I drained the water, I knew that there would be a nice milkshake waiting everywhere. That is one of the reasons I am doing a full teardown and cleaning. It may well have been running on a couple but I can't say for sure. It wasn't right anyway. I am leaning toward a leaking O ring in one or more of the liners, putting coolant into the oil and causing that ugly mess. The rusint is because sitting wet, so I have to accept responsibility for not doing something about it right away. I'll have to give some thought to what to call this old girl, but don't have anything in mind right now. I'll choose carefully, given that I could be leaving the door wide open....
Jusk.....Im thinking that since you did not see white smoke in the exhaust while running it, that maybe the coolant leaked past those Orings or someplace and into the oil as it was sitting......but then again, it had to be running with water to get that yuk up in the valve cover and to have it mixed up like a shake in the oil pan. Maybe a slow leak that did not really show up in the exhaust smoke, plus you said it usually had a bit of black smoke anyway. Makes me very grateful to have my old rig's engine running like a top and not smoking at all......hope those gremlins leave me and the 188 diesel alone for awhile.
Nice, great info here. I have to pull my head and hope and pray its only a head gasket. No water in my oil YET Diver
Jusk, I got a suggestion for a name for your rig. How about Jus-in-Case? I know, I know, it's late and the beer made me say it. :drinkup
Grady......There you go.......thats a great name.....Jus-in-Case.......Or could leave it as Jusk-in-Case, or Jus-in-Kase (to keep the k). Lets see what kinds of wild n krazy names ole Xpac comes up with. Another one.....since he is up in Sasquatch territority, maybe "Island Sasquatch".
Grady/68 Those are some awesome ideas and if jusk wanted to stick with the stranded on a island theme how about the gals on gilligans island the hard part would be do you go with the curves and call her Ginger or the farm girl and call her Mary Ann or maybe the cruise ship the S.S.Minnow. We can only hope Jusk comes up with something soon so we can do our part and help him get his tractor adjusted to its new name... hahahaha
Xpac.......Yea man.....the "S.S. Minnow" would be a good name......we will see what Jusk comes up with, probably something more sensible than our crazziness.
Yea im sure jusk will come up with something good......
Well, I made my side trip and got back at this again yesterday and today for a few hours. I managed to get the block separated from the torque tube using a hydraulic lift table. It made simple work of moving the block assembly away from the tractor so I could strip it down. I had previously pulled all but two of the studs in the block but after trying everything and destroying my stud remover, they will be going along to the machine shop for them to remove. I will have to replace them both as they are now toast from my efforts. This morning, I got dropped the crank and got the pistons moving after an overnight soak with Deep Creep (thanks xpack). I used some hardwood blocks and drove out three of the four. The first one I tried, was the one with water and when I tapped on it, the sleeve came up with it. After lunch, I put together a sleeve puller using a couple of long studs, a couple of pieces of unistrut, a couple nuts and a long bolt. One piece of unistrut was cut to fit the bottom of the liner and arced to only contact the rim. The other piece went on top of the two studs threaded into the block. I had drilled holes for the studs and the centre bolt which did the pulling. Once set up, a couple of turns of the ratchet and the sleeve popped up about an inch. When the puller was clear, it was just lifted out by hand. Went the same for the other three. The good news so far, is there was very little wear on the liners, sleeves and no visible cracks in the ususal places in the block. Magna flux will confirm that. There was no obvious signs of leakage at the sleeve O rings or head gasket, so I am a bit puzzled. There was as mentioned previously, some issues with the injectors, which are still stuck in the head. Another machine shop job... and on two cylinders, at least one compression ring was broken and the other appears stuck. That and injectors would account for hard starting. I also confirmed that the ring gear will need to be replaced. The symptoms were a coupl of dead spots when trying to crank the engine over. A new ring gear and starter rebuild will take care of that. Now I just have to figure out how to heat the new ring gear to 450f in my wife's oven and drive it onto the flywheel sitting on the kitchen floor.... I still need to get the timing gear off the camshaft, and will borrow the correct size socket locally. Mine is with the boat trailer bucket as the wheel bearings use that same size. Once the timing gear is off, then the camshaft, bushings and lifters will come out. Then, a thorough cleaning of the shop, tools and begin the claning of all the pasrts I have removed to get this far. Once I make arrangements for the block and head at a machine shop in town, we will load it onto the boat and get it over there. Stripped, this can't be more than a couple of hundred lbs, so manageable on a dolly. For heavy lifts on the boat, I put a sheet of plywood across the back and roll the load onto that area from the dock. Once, we moved a lawn tractor that way. It got some odd looks as we cruised by in the harbour.
Some more pics of the progress
Pulling the sleeves with home made puller...
The more I work on this and find stuff to fix, I'm leaning toward Bas-Kit-Case.... One day at a Time...
On the ring gear job, wait till someone goes shopping and open the windows and clean the oil off the ring gear. Let it set in oven for maybe 1/2 hour after oven is up to temp. If there is a chamfer on the teeth, usually is towards the stater side be sure you note that first. Grab the ring gear with your welding gloves,NOT the GOOD OVEN MITTS" and drop it on the flywheel. Maybe have a good hammer and brass punch handy just in case, but it might surprise you how easy the gear slips on. I was actually a bit worried the first one I replaced on a Mack flywheel it seemed too loose for quite a while. Once it cools down and seems nice and tight I'd probably work around the gear giving it a few good taps with the hammer and brass punch to make sure it was seated. Then once kitchen is aired out good, if there was any smoke, close the windows and turn up the heat so it nice and warm before someone comes home! Don't forget the welding gloves in the kitchen!
Kinda OT / Rust Removal from Gears Etc and Hard to Source Bits On the weekend, I made a trip to deliver some cadillac flathead motors and while visiting at the other end, picked up this tip. I have never heard of this before and will try it on my next project, a JD crawler, that has been 'around' and near salt water, everything rusts. My acquaintance is into large green WW2 tracked things... He collects all an any pieces he can as parts are becoming scarce and many are in poor condition. His secret for cleaning parts like gears from transmissions and final drives that have rusted is to put them in a bath of 50/50 molasses and water. Submerge the parts and leave them, sometimes months in a covered container to control evaporation and to keep wildlife out. The difference is unbelievable, does not involve heat or abrasion like sand blasting and leaves the part looking like new. The only thing that is required is to remove all grease and as much dirt as possible. I don't yet understand what the chemical reaction is between the sugars and the rust but seeing is believing. Once I get onto this, I will start a thread just to show how this works and post up some pictures of the example I plan to use. This does take time, but its more environmentally friendly that some processes and other than the potential smell, is trouble free. I'm not sure how you would dispose of the medium after your done with it, but that's for another day...
kshansen, Thanks for the tips, I had planned to use a torch but read that the heating was not even enough for the process. At the pace I'm working, the boss will be away of a cruise with her girlfriends and I will have a whole week to figure out how to get the gear sized burn mark out of the kitchen floor I have done small bearings with dry ice and a special hotplate so this shouldn't be a lot different. Getting it hot enough was my main concern. Thanks again
hahahah ....Thats a good one jusk ........Im thinking you have took over the taz name ...your keeping a good pace on yours and it cool seeing the fabbed tools your coming up with for this thanks for the great pics of you pulling the sleeves i have always wondered about them is there a oring on the top and bottom???? Do you think you will be honing them and reuseing them and the pistons or are you just going with all new ????? I think i see where you actually still have a gasket between your engine and bell housing mine was some kinda spray on gasket maker when i split it but it has a gasket now....I dont know why someone would use that spray stuff on something like this for me its a real gasket .....The tractor on the boat just means you will do what you have to do to get it done.... i bet you did get some looks out of it though...Im laughing about it as i picture this 12ft jon boat with a 20hp riding mower strapped to the back with you rowing this jon boat into the harbour hahaha although im sure it wasnt that bad..... Great progress Jusk keep up the great work 1 thing at a time.....
Jusk one of the guys on here just did the inside of his fuel tank with 50/50 water and vinegar and it turned out pretty good looking theres a youtube video on using vinegar and it looks like it works good given time..... heres the youtube video if i did this right https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlcL_vHODkc
xpack, after looking the parts over, I could reuse the pieces as there is almost no ridge in the sleeve, and the liners (bearings) for both crank and rod journals are pretty good. But, since I have taken it this far, I will be going back with all new parts to be sure that I won't be seeing them any time soon. The sleeves fit into a machine recess in the top of the block, sealed by the head gasket and fire ring, and there are two O rings about an inch up from the bottom of the sleeve. They sit in the machined part of the block visible in one of the pictures. Tomorrow, I'll post up some of the removed pieces so you can see what they look like and get an idea of how they fit together and why I am going to just replace them all. When I was young and poorer, I have done a ring job and reinstalled way worse than this one but then those days a good car was $100, a good wage for starting was $1.25 hr and my weekly take home was about $140. Its not a lot more now...
Jusk......Sorry for the late replies....I have not been getting email notifications of H.E. posts. Hey, regarding the molassas and water, I got the same info from a guy out in Australia. He has some videos on Youtube.....he takes entire rusty fenders and panels and lets them soak about 2 weeks in a tub of this mixture, and when he pulls them out, the slim slides right off, and leaves a completly shiney, like new, panel. Pretty amazing. And its all natural/organic and you can just dump it in your "outback" with no issues. As he would say, "No worries mate". I have also wanted to give it a try sometime. Good pics and info. on your engine tear-down....pretty neat how you removed the sleeves. I am curious.....could you just have left the sleeves in, and then used a reamer on them to clean up? Are you going to put new sleeves in, or just re-surface these?
Funny this vinegar topic came up......I just used a 50-50 mix of white vinegar and water to clean out the radiator/block on my Ford tractor. Just let it sit in it for 3 days, and ran the tractor a few time to haul in firewood, and then drained.....did a great job.
68 case, I could have left the sleeves, and they don't look too bad without doing a mic on them. I want to have the block magna fluxed for cracks, so it should be stripped. I will also have it cleaned and all the passages rodded out to be sure it is all clean. I had expected more wear on all of it, but I guess I haven't run it all that much in the 25 yrs I have owned it. If I had left them, I would have used a hone to clean them up, and either put in anew set of pistons and rings or just the rings. As it stands, it will all be new. 68case / xpack - I am familiar with the vinegar cleaning but had not heard of or seen the molasses method before. The fellow I dropped the engines off at was using large wheeled garbage cans and horse feed tubs for his pieces. Some of them would require a forklift to move, so we are not in the same league buy a long shot. I'll eventually try it on my JD crawler final drives that are a mess.
Jusk.....She will be running great after you put the new piston/rings in, and get her all back together....will go another 50 years.
68 did it pull a ton of crap out doing the vinegar trick any chunks of rust or just fine stuff......Is the old ford running cooler now???? Just curious i also wonder if 100% vinegar would be good or bad idea .......
Xpac.....Well, I first flushed out the old with a hose, and it was running clear......and then I added the vinegar mixture and let it sit for 3 days and ran it a few times to get the stuff warmed up. When I drained it out, it came out pretty brown looking......pretty much just small powdery stuff, no big stuff.....but it definately cleaned off the accumulated rust. Runs super cool now. Im not sure if 100% vinegar would be a good idea or not....guess you will have to ask some other experts who have used it. I played it safe with the 50-50 mixture. I watched the video you posted of the guy cleaning that piece of rusty sheet metal....and it was doing a number on the rust within 2 hours......and he said his mixture was 60% vinegar. Im thinking you dont want to go past his 60% mix.....might wake up and find your radiator has disappeared, and just a glob underneath it.
kshansen, Today was clean up the wreckage day and tidy the work area up again. One of the things I did was drive the old ring gear off the flywheel. A few taps in a couple of places around the circumference, repeated a few times and it fell off. At first, I thought it was just square cut and no front or back, but after looking in the service manual, and looking a bit closer, I see the chamfer that will go down when I put the new one in place. I called for one today and it might be available for pickup next week. If it does show up, I happen to be on my own for a few days.... When I do get it done, I'll post the results.
Always seems things go better when "boss" is not around to "help"! I'm lucky in that several years back wife decided we needed a new kitchen stove. Old on was still working okay but it was getting a little rough around the edges. Just so happened when I built my garage I had thought to wire it for 240 Volts thinking I might want a small welder some day. I did end up with a little Lincoln wire feed that runs on 120 volts. Quick shuffling of a few things and I then had a oven right in the shop part of garage. Handy when painting small parts for baking the paint on or heating bearing to install them.
When you talk about the chamfer is that on the inside diameter of the ring? I thought it looked like the teeth have a slight chamfer on the on side of the teeth that face the stater in post #237, or is that just some chips from wear?
The chamfer is on the inside. When I first looked at it once it was off the flywheel, it looked like it could be turned over and reused, but there is only one way to install this one. What you can see in the pictures is wear and only in a couple of places, likely why it had dead spots trying to crank the starter. I will have a new Bendix gear put on when they refresh the starter.
Today wasn't a particularly productive day, but I got the timing gear off, camshaft pulled and the push rod lifters out. I'm trying to keep everything in order of removal, so I can put them back where they came from. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the ring gear was worn in a couple spots and I removed it also. I moved the block onto a clean paper sheet on the floor and brought up some of the pieces that need to go to town for rebuilds. The starter and generator will go to a local shop, the injection pump to a shop closer to where my house is and I'm hoping to get the block and head into a local shop for magna flux testing and then the other work I can't or won't do myself here. I did manage to get one injector pulled, with a bit of xpack's Deep Creep, but the other three aren't going anywhere yet. I will see if I can move them tomorrow but if not, they can go with the head as I am junking them anyway. The rest of the shop time today was spent wiping and putting away some of my tools and cleaning up in the work area. Tomorrow, I will call the machine shop in town and see about dropping off the block and head. I still have to figure out how its getting there, but I think I can wrap it up, strap it on a dolly and load in onto the boat. The other way is to bring my truck over and load all the heavy stuff, but that will take some organization for the barge.
Roosa Master Injection pump and pump drive shaft with seals. I will send the shaft along with the pump so the shop can install the seals for me. Good advice from thepumpguysc. Thanks!
Old Abe is everywhere.... Here is the pump drive gear off the injection pump shaft, with Abe cast into the gear... The others are the head, crank and cam. The valves will stay with the head on the trip to the machine shop. If the head checks out ok, then they clean up the mating surfaces, do valve guides and grind the valves. A couple are sticking due to having been wet, so this will take care of that concern.
I neglected to mention in the post before, that two of the cam bushings look like the have either oil starved or are beginning to wear. I tried to get a picture but it didn't work out in there, close up. I can't help but wonder it was because of mis-alignment but then the new ones are supposed to be reamed to fit the cam unpon install. Close inspection of the cam bushing surfaces and the lobes shows no appreciable wear or signs of other problems. Another mystery, but I feel better about changing them, now that I had a good look.
Lookin good jusk it wont be long and you can start seeing it going back together which as you know feels a lot better than the tear down...I have my fingers crossed the head and block checkout for you but if they do then you gotta ask how did that water get in there in the first place..I am curious myself how it got in there if not the head gasket,head,or block i have been trying to think of how else it could get in there....Thats one of those where if it is the head or block it sucks but at least you know....But if not where do you go next ??? If you get time can you put up some pics of the injector you have out i have wondered how to even remove them do they thread out of the head or is there more to it than that.....
xpack, I'll get one in the morning. The injectors are held in with a bolt down clamp and have a compression ring at the top and a carbon seal near the bottom to keep junk out of the bore. The bore hole in the block is smooth, and in theory, once the clamping bolt is removed, you should be able to pull them out by hand. Simple. The other option is a puller that fits into a couple of slots in the head of the injector. I may just make one up if I can't get the other three out tomorrow if I can find a picture of one. The one that came out just took a couple light taps, some of your Deep Creep that I have on trial, and then I wiggled it up and out. I salvaged the fitting that threads to the return line by removing the rubber insert gasket and then sliding the nut off the top of the injector. The new ones don't come with that nut, so they need to be removed if you are putting new injectors in. You don't want to change any adjustments or they will have to be pop tested at a shop again... Now that I am this far, I can say that other than the mystery water problem, there is little wear in the sleeves or other parts, a lot less than expected on something this old. One thing I did notice, is that the sleeves have 2 O rings, and the Parts book shows that my serial number would take the sleeve with the single O ring, which was used in the earlier serial numbers. I don't know the difference, if any other than the O rings but I want to sure of what to order when I buy the overhaul kit. I'll likely just got with the serial # and then I can blame the parts system. The water puzzles me, because it may have just been the head gasket, but I couldn't see obvious signs of leakage. When I pulled the Intake Manifold, I found standing water in the #2 valve area, but none in the intake manifold. #4 looks to have had water, but I think was dry this time. If it was coming in on the manifold side, there would have been some trace in there. I suspected the power washing but can't see how it got there, past the oil bath air cleaner without there being oil in the intake. The exhaust side looked dry but had been wet, maybe from sitting with oil in the water, even though I had done a flush and change last May when I first got into this. I'll know what it wasn't and do right by the rest, so there shouldn't be any issue ongoing. I'm hoping one of the long timers with these machines will have some idea what it may be so we can rule that out. I'll get at it again in the morning, One day at a time...
Jusk......Just curious here about how the water got in. Did you already dump the oil bath out from the air breather? Im wondering if the oil bath also had water mixed with it.......if so, then you were getting rainwater coming down the stack somehow. Or, maybe that rubber hose has a crack in it, or clamps loose? Last idea is that one of those racoons hopped on her and drove her through the water during the night, getting ole Abe pretty annoyed. Neat how Case stamped that bird all over the cast parts......sign of quality you dont see these days.
Just one question. When you are saying "water" getting in places is it clear water or is it water with antifreeze mixed in. I'm just assuming being up in B.C. you do have antifreeze in it. Actually I would be running antifreeze in any engine no matter the lowest temps seen just better for engine life.
Thanks for all the great info jusk And just a little side note if you dont find out what you need to know on those sleeves i would be willing to bet Dale at tractorstuff knows exactly what is correct for yours.That guy seems to know a lot about these things i know he isnt close by you but if you decided to buy some stuff from him he is very helpfull.... Yea the water leak there was a time when i had Marie at my friends house and it had to set outside and it got water in the oil on the breather i cought it in time but there was a leak where the short pipe comes out the top of the breather water was seeping in i resealed it and all is good now .....But im with you i doubt as much as you had in your motor that it came from the breather or pressure washing ....Im pretty sure you had said the antifreeze was going down which is a internal leak ....Im not sure how the water pump mounts ect....but i wonder if there could be something with that that could allow antifreeze to mix with the oil im sure you checked that out but im just trying to think of anything that may help you while you have it tore down that you could check...I also wondered about those seals around the sleeves but it sounds like yours were good.... A few years back my friend and me had a issue like this in his truck engine and we went threw all the normal checks and then some trying to find out what was causing it and after a s---ton of different things we finally came to the conclusion it was the block so we found a really good deal on another low miles great running parts truck and just pulled the motor and put new head/intake gaskets in the motor because we had it out and that took care of his truck...For this it was cheaper to do it this way than to send out his block and get it checked and he ended up recouping his money from parting out the rest of the stuff on the truck....Nevertheless it was a major pita trying to find the leak ....
Injector picture for xpack Here is the injector I removed at the end of my day yesterday. The screwdriver is pointing to the hole that the clamp bolt goes into, and the injector goes into the hole to the left of it. The nut has a rubber sealing ring inside that you need to keep if you are changing the injectors. After another coffee, I'll head down to the shop and see if the others will come out. The book warns about prying and banging on them because they will bend. In the picture, you can see the slot where the fancy puller goes... Since I'm not reusing them, its not as big a worry but if they don't come easy, they may end up going to town with the head.
ks, although we have pretty mild temperatures here, we do get a few weeks of cold each winter and sometimes a bit of snow, so antifreeze is the norm. On this one, I have always used antifreeze and added the snake oil water pump lubricant with each change. The anticorrosion benefits far out weigh the costs and straight water doesn't cool as efficiently. We run 50/50. All the changes go into pails and get recycled for free in town. Out here, on the island, water is precious, and saltwater close by, so dumping would mean we'd be drinking it sooner or later. I posted about the water last year when I discovered it and we decided that the was antifreeze in it. When I started the tear down in the shop, now a month or more ago, I removed the intake manifold to discover water in the cast in valve pocket of #2, but nothing sitting in the intake. I didn't do the 'taste test' on it but it looked a bit green, so likely antifreeze. We will pay special attention to that part of the head and block when the castings are checked in the machine shop. Thanks for following this along and offering suggestions. More minds make easy work of some of this. I can turn the wrenches but experiences of others help make it easy and fun.
68case, thanks for the suggestion to check the oil bath and connecting hoses. They are still sitting where I stored them and when I clean the bath, will check on the water situation. The hoses and clamps seemed ok, but with dirt and grease cover, there may be something hiding. A careful inspection will reveal what is underneath the dirt. As all will be replaced, I will ensure that the new stuff fits properly and tight. Old Abe has his mark all over this thing, and it may be a way to determine if parts are original and not aftermarket or offshore stuff. But then a certain nation is famous for copying everything so you never know. I was wondering what was going on with the grounds security staff that we left in charge while away in Alaska and the Yukon this pat summer. I asked one of these little guys but he told me it wasn't him, but maybe his sister did it...:tong That's the usual response from siblings, especially these known troublemakers.
jusk once again thanks for coming threw with great info on the injectors.Now i see how they are setup i have thought of changing mine at some point thats why i was so curious.... thanks again
One iF By Land, Two If By Sea OK, now things are moving again. Today I managed to get the small barge over to pick up the engine block, crank, cam, head and a box of misc bits needed at the machine shop. I had been trying to get this organized for a few days and this morning, the owner of the marine company we use, called and said he could run over to pick up the stuff. I charged around and collected the pieces, gift wrapped them for the weather and hauled them down to my neighbour's dock. They have a ramp, not stairs like my place, so I could use the dolly. On the way down the hill, with the block on, my dolly blew a tire. Lucky for me, I borrowed one from my neighbours place and got it all down to the head of the ramp leading down to the dock. Once the barge arrived, the two of us wheeled it down to the float and he picked up the block with his hydraulic crane. I had to run in by boat to meet him with my pickup at the boat ramp in town. From there, I drove over to the machine shop, dropped off the engine, and then went by the auto electric place to drop off the starter and generator for a cleanup. They are going to check on the availability of an alternator with tach drive for me. If there is such a beast, I will probably upgrade at some point. What started out as a calm and dry day deteriorated into a heavy rain and some wind for the boat ride back. Engine is now booked in and depending on when engine kit arrives, and their ongoing schedule, I should have it back 'short block' ready to haul back over to the island in about 3 weeks. The plan now is to start in on parts cleanup and get ready to split for the shuttle inspection.
The Voyage Here are a few pictures of the load and transporation to town
By Sea... Here is the barge leaving with the stuff and arriving at the launch in town. I had to run in ahead to meet him with my truck. We loaded everything into the pickup and off to the machine shop.
Wow jusk you do have some challenges most of dont have to deal with ....those are some awesome pictures of the barge hauling your block .....Just the part of needing to dolly the block from your place to the neighbors and down the dock then loading on the barge so you can race to the other side and unload the barge then load your truck is a adventure onto itself.... Glad to hear shes on her way for you ...now you will find out if theres any cracks in that head/block hopefully not......
xpack, the boat ride is sometimes a bit of an obstacle, like when you want Ready Mix, or a load of gravel, a pile of lumber or whatever. But, it really makes us a bit smarter in what we really need and when we do haul over heavy stuff, we make the tug and barge trip pay. In the early years, it all came in a small boat, even the drinking water, dragged up the beach to the tent. Nuts but fun. What has gotten me in the last few years is the hauling of the smaller stuff from home to here. Load into truck, drive 2 hrs to marina, unload from truck and haul down to float. Load into boat, make the 6 mile boat trip and tie up. Unload boat, haul up ramp and 25 stair steps. Load into back of vehicle or onto dolly. Head up hill to shop and unload. Sort load and distribute for storage or use at the cabin. Tired yet? Now you know why we drink so much...:beatsme The reality of having a get away place on a small island with no public ferry is that once you are there and set up, its a wonderful place to be. Small community, safe place for your kids and grandkids where everyone knows each other and we all immediately recognize strangers. Privacy when you want it, our wildlife friends, the orcas and sea lions passing by, fabulous sunsets:notworthy I've been at this here in one way or another for over 40 yrs. I'm holding out for another 40....
Crankshaft Pulley While I was looking over the bits I have sitting in the shop, I noticed a considerable groove in the pulley form the seal. It had some oil and dirt built up on the back of the pulley, so this may leak a tiny bit. I'm trying to decide if I should put a sleeve on it, or chuck it in the lathe and clean up the groove. The front and rear seals are being replaced with the rebuild anyway. The evidence... Nasty night here, with serious rain and wind. Fortunately, we are on the sheltered shore for winter winds. No snow, but everyone is hoping that there is some at higher elevations so we have more snowpack and some runoff left by the summer. Last summer was the driest I can remember here on the west coast, with many rivers almost drying up. Hard on the fish, especially the salmon who can't take the warm water.
Jusk.......Amazing......Boy, thats alot of extra work involved just to move all the parts....engine, radiator, etc. from your shop, and onto the boats, the ferry, and to the mainland.....and back again. Most of us might not have the patience to do all this extra work, and might never do the repairs. You really have to be dedicated and committed to the project for sure.
I'd vote for a sleeve, the ones I have had good luck with are sold under at least two names Redi-Sleeve and Speedi-Sleeve Hard to tell from the picture how deep the groove is but a light coat of epoxy on the seal area just before installing the sleeve will help support the sleeve as they are very thin. In a couple extreme cases with deep grooves I coated the seal area with epoxy and let it cure over night then machined it down to the same diameter as the seal area. Problem was epoxy will tend to flow as it cures so to keep it on the seal area I came up with the idea of chucking the part in the lathe and let the lathe run at slow speed over night. It had a nice even coating in the morning. A couple light passes with sharp tool and it was ready for the sleeve. I also did coat the surface with a little more epoxy just before installing the sleeve. The main "trick" to installing the sleeves is to make sure they go on nice and straight, they are very thin and will get a stretch mark in them if they go off in one direction. Best to use a press of some kind, not that it takes any real force but you can have a little more control as opposed to driving with a hammer.
Justalka, On YTMAG site on the web there are discussion forums, CaseDB site has a supplier, John Saeli ---Saeli Implement I believe on the web, He sells the Tach drive alternators. I have worked wth him over the years and would recommend him if you are going to keep the tach working. Mel
Jusk i was tired when you said you had to dolly the block to your neighbors and i would have to stop at the 12th stair step to drink 6 beers of the 12 pack and finish the rest at the top.... I bet there are some real pretty views and you get to see lots of cool stuff just the pics of barge shows some cool scenery .......
Melben, Thanks for that information, I am familiar with the Saeli name and his contributions elsewhere. I will see what the generator looks like and if they come up with an option here. With our plummeting $ and import costs, the local option would be my first. John Saeli will be the next. The generator charges and if I run enough, will keep the battery up. I have a maintainer to install this time around and it will help in the idle times between use.
heck that is the guy that i have found for parts for my ol case. he said any thing i need he can fix me up. He is the only one i could find that says he has the narrow flange head gasket that i may need IF i have a narrow flange. Wont know till i get the head off.
68case and xpack, I'm glad its gone and when I bring it back, I will bring the truck over. I can use the barge in the pictures or his tug and barge that will move a couple of tandems. The hill was the worst of the haul, everything is either up or down, at both ends and my body can't do it like when I was younger. I miss the tractor. At my place the stairs are the limiter. If I can't lift it, I drop it next door and bring it up from there. Beer and wine get heavy. We need to make some changes to my stairs if we are going to do another 5 or 10 yrs here. Another project....:Banghead The views are great. Problem is, if I sit down at the water, usually on the steps, an hour goes by with nothing done. There is a lot of commercial boat traffic and in season pleasure boats heading north toward the central British Columbia coast and some on to southern Alaska. So always something to watch. In the late afternoon, a few chairs on the dock and we have the makings of a party. I can't help but think how lucky we are to be able to enjoy these things, be relatively healthy, and live in a stable and safe part of the world. I can't ask for more...
kshansen, Thanks for the info on the sleeves. I haven't looked for one yet but both brands are available. My only experience with these was on my boat trailer axles, and they were a special stepped fit for the rear seal. I got them from direct from the manufacturer of the trailers along with new seals and bearings. Even with maintenance, the salt water is hard on everything. We repack twice a season to save on in-service headaches. With those sleeves, we put them onto a 100w light bulb, used an anaerobic sealer under and they just dropped on. Well, almost...
Well heating won't work with the ones I listed. They are very thin something in the order of 0.002-3 inch. I seen guys try heating them but they get hot real fast and just touching them to pick them up will cool them off. The 100 watt bulb trick works good on bearings that are a press fit on a shaft. I have an old kitchen electric stove out in my garage and that is nice cause if you have several bearings to install for a project just stick them on a cookie sheet and set the oven for around 250ºF . Grab one at a time and the rest are ready when it's their turn! Also comes in very handy for baking on paint on smaller items. Or when I want to play with the powder coat kit!
John Saeli and I are good friends, we socialize, however infrequently due to the 3 hr drive, I do not know which gasket he has that cannot be bought through Case , I recently got the narrow flange old style gasket with loose fire rings from my Case dealer, that was the original gasket on the 188. It is available with both standard and oversize fire rings.
LOL i never tried case, just searched internet ... . diver
I did the oven thing one time and then she found out. I was banished from the kitchen, now going on 30 yrs...
Want to get in even more trouble? Next time you have some parts that need washing load up the dish washer while she is not there then forget to take them out before she gets home!
Not much to report today, as I'm off island for some repairs to my tired body. This morning, I dropped off the rad at the local shop for a re core, as its past due. The injection pump went to the local shop here and will get a full rebuild. They will also pop test my new injectors that I bought 20 yrs ago and never took out of the packaging. May not be required, but I'm in this far now... Next week, I will begin to thin out all the stuff on the torque tube, pull the covers and see about splitting the tractor behind the shuttle. One day at a time...
Hey jusk will they be trying to test the oil cooler in the radiator for the shuttle oil i had read where some guys were having issues with them going bad and the oil/antifreeze mixing.....
I agree that would be a very good idea, a good radiator shop I'm sure would be doing it as standard practice.
xpack, kshansen, the shop specializes in marine coolers for engine and oil used in tugs and large commercial landing craft, common here on the coast. The owner and I had a discussion on the condition and he was the one who said they would test the cooler as at the age and condition of the core, the cooler may need replacement. When its apart, he will look at it and make decide then. Its a family shop, with the owner running the office and doing the bs stuff, the son in the back and grandson helping out while on layoff from the oilpatch. They come recommended from the shop that maintains my diesel and outdrive on the boat, and they are fussy. It'll be right at least.
What about using a separate oil cooler like they went to in later years since you're having it re-cored? - Then there would be no chance of the two ever mixing and probably both would work [cool] even better than if combined. The oil would likely not heat up as quickly as it would if they were combined. That may be a consideration.
That would be one option, but if the core can be replaced with a new one it would save modifying the cooler lines. Also one advantage to the water cooled cooler is the water will help heat the hydraulic oil on cool days. This would reduce the chance of condensation in the oil. There are good points to either style. If good coolant is kept in the engine system a cooler failure should be a very low occurrence.
Grady, using a separate cooler would be an option if the cooler was bad and the core good. Aftermarket rads, both with and without coolers are available, but I chose to recore for less cost than ordering one, paying freight, exchange, brokerage and long distance support if I have issues. This shop is local to my home and reputable. I don't think there will be issues after they pressure test the cooler while the core is out of it. kshansen, that's a good point about temperatures, although where I live is a moderate climate and at sea level, we don't see much snow or prolonged freezing temps. The condensation issue shows up in a lot of stuff that sits. Pleasure boats, extra vehicles and seasonal equipment never run enough to dry them out really well in the cooler months. Indoor storage would be nice, but the shop and shed are full of crap already...
Jusk, I'd be interested in how much it ends up costing to re-core. I had the radiator out of my C recently and even though it wasn't leaking, some of the fins were starting to rot so I took it down to the rad. shop to have it re-cored. He said $500.00+. It wasn't leaking or overheating so I just put it back in. I've got so many things that really need repair that I can't throw money at the things that still work. I saw a brand new one on ebay - probably China - for $289.00 delivered with 1 year warranty. The oil cooler is separate on the C but the core is about the same size as the CK's. kshansen, "The oil would likely not heat up as quickly with a separate cooler as it would if they were combined. That may be a consideration." ; )
grady, the quote is /not more than $400. Cdn, which is about .74 to the US dollar currently. The Ebay ones were over $400 and then all the rest of the costs. I'm like you, in that I don't have extra money to spend unnecessarily but with the engine rebuild, I felt this was necessary and easy to do now. This was likely the original rad and the core and fins were showing signs of rotting away. With my luck, it would have failed as soon as I got back to work.... I've been led to believe that a lot of parts from CNH are now made in China, so I don't have any problem buying from another source, new or used if they will do the job. With the China parts, quality is the main concern as they build to a price point and could make the same or better quality, it will just cost more and dig into the profits of the companies that are importing them.... The Harvard Business School model of 'outsourcing' is all about profits and executive bonuses, nothing else.
Jusk, That sounds fair and it's not extravagant to do the radiator if you're doing the engine - it's smart. I was hoping for 200 - 300 so when he said 500+ I just couldn't see it. I don't doubt that the original radiator in my C came from Asia or wherever cheap labor was found at the time. The radiator in my CK is still in good shape and it's 10 years older but made here back when quality mattered more. The radiator in my '48 farmall tractor is in perfect shape and it's original. You're right though, good quality could come from anywhere if that was the emphasis rather than those executive bonuses for doing nothing except making stuff more profitable by making it crappier.
Today wasn't the most productive day. I seem to have more than few of them but I got the big parts washer going and topped up the varsol in the tank. It was surprising how much had evaporated since the last time I used it to clean some stuff for another project. I run 20 gals of varsol and have about 10 gals of water in the bottom that catches the crud for eventual removal. Once I got going, I cleaned a bunch of the pieces I had removed and pre-cleaned with a scraper. In the next few days, I'll get all the loose parts scraped, power washed and run through the parts washer. I'm thinking it would be pretty nice to have one of those fancy hot water cabinets like the marine shop that services the boat has. Its the kind of place that puts stuff that I consider clean into the cabinet for a wash, but then they are the best... Yesterday, I was planning to get into the machine shop and see what the situation is on my block and head. Something came up and we didn't get there, so tomorrow I'll go have a look. I am also going to see about paint and try to decide if I will do the rattle can overhaul, or go all the way and spray the whole assembly when it warms a bit. My machine has the original Case orange, whatever they called it, and the cab, loader and backhoe are the old yellow. I'd like to keep those colours or something close. I matched GM Engine Orange and Chrysler Orange to be pretty close. The yellow may end up either Industrial Yellow, or Old Cat Yellow, which isn't too bright. Whatever yellow, I choose, will become the company colours here and eventually the Bandit Wood chipper and the Atlas Copco air compressor will get a coat of paint the same.
Grady, With the rad, I decided that I didn't want to have to do anything with it later, so now was the time when it was in the pile outside anyway. It would be a shame to have to pull it down for a rad replacement after I finally get it all cleaned up and repainted. I could have gotten one of ebay or from a dealer but the costs would have been more than the re-core. They will test the cooler and do a visual inspection when the tanks are off, so with a new core, its will be as new and I won't have any cooling issues. As it is, I may not get all of the repair list done this time, but will whatever does get finished will not need anything for my time (I hope..)
Sounds good Jusk, I'm sure the radiator will be fine - sounds like a nice parts washer, too. I had a choice between John Deere yellow and Cat yellow with the SEM rust shield paint I used. If they had Case yellow, I'd have gone with that but they didn't so I went with the Cat yellow. The machine didn't mind a bit - It runs just as good.
I haven't had much to report on this, as spring is here and I had an excavator on the property for a couple of days doing some major work, involving rock and removal of a few trees that were becoming a hazard. We pushed some that were 120' tall and had developed root rot. Many of these around here are sitting on rock in shallow soil cover. One was leaning toward the big open shed and it had to go. This is work I wouldn't do with the 580CK anyway. Unfortunately, when we were doing the final cleanup, its rained pretty hard and the place looks like the Somme in 1914.:Banghead I'm thinking I will bring another load of road base when we barge over the engine and spread that on the driveway where its the worst. It will be like rock once it dries out but for now you could sled down the hill to the road out front. I did receive good news this morning from the machine shop. Both the head and block have passed the Magna Flux test, so now we can move forward. The rest will be fine and I'm hoping a couple of weeks it will be back here and the reassembly can begin on the front half. I have spent a few hours at the parts washer, getting that last bit of baked on grease off so I can paint up the bits for assembly. I am looking at Dupont Imron for the finish on the engine/trans/rear end and have found a late in the storage box that we'll use to match. If I like working with this paint, a yellow will be used for the loader/backhoe when I get the tractor part finished. One day at a time...
Jusk them are some tall trees .....i have never measured mine but i have always been curious how tall they were i will measure the next one i put down.....These ones on my property dont branch out until the top of the tree i believe its because they are so tight together so they dont get much sun down low ..... That has to feel good about your block and head being good at least you can put that to rest ....Great News.....
Back at it finally I'm back at this project again after some down time. I'll post a few pictures to catch up to where we are today. Engine being returned from the machine shop. This time, I brought all the pieces on the barge in my pickup, as I wasn't up to handling it all off the dock at the far end.
Parts that came back to the shop Here are some of the pieces that we brought over. Short block and head, rebuilt starter and generator and the box of parts that I got from Dale at ebackhoe parts. I was very happy with the service and ordered all the gaskets and seals that I know will be required to do the rest of the tractor after the engine is back together. The bolts on the top of the block are there to prevent the liners from being pulled out if the crank gets turned over.
Over the past few weeks, I have been cleaning parts in the washer and getting it all ready to reassemble. I had cleaned this all 3 times before disassembling it but there is still a lot of dirt cacked on the needs to be scraped and scrubbed off. One of my supervisors is keeping an eye on productivity. With all this cleaning and prep for paint, I have renewed respect for guys like 68Case and Xpack who have not only done major work on their 580CKs but also cleaned and painted every part as they went along. Lots of work, but the results should be worth the effort.
Looks good! Is that an exchange head or your's after the machine shop rebuilt it? It is a lot of work cleaning everything but it will make assembly go much faster. I'd be keeping an eye on that "supervisor don't trust someone who wears a mask to hide his true identity!
Gettin it together... In the last few days, things have finally started to move again. I was delayed by trying to figure out how to remove the stuck crank nut and after lots of good feedback from members on here, I did get it off. I was probably overthinking the process and a bit scared of doing any damage to the rebuilt block. I had left the nut on the crank and the shop didn't remove it, thinking I had it on for some reason. All worked out in the end. I got the timing gears, front cover, pan and flywheel back on yesterday. I had previously replaced the ring gear with one I got from Dale. Following suggestions from the guys on here, I warmed the ring gear up in the oven (while the cook was away) and it dropped right on. 450F for 30 minutes did the trick. Today, I installed the head gasket and head, studs into the block and torqued everything to specs. After lunch, I got the pushrods and rocker assembly cleaned and installed. I'll do a quick check and adjust tomorrow if I have time. The weather was cool with rain today, so I left the shampoo and rinse until tomorrow to get it ready for a coat of primer and paint in the coming week. I had taken a lot of pictures of the process but these will give you an idea of how far I've gotten. Sorry about the rotated picture, I thought I'd fixed it but it still comes out sideways... After I finished with this, I chucked the crank pulley onto the lathe and cleaned up the substantial groove cause by the seal wearing. There was a lot of oily dirt built up under the pulley and I wanted to fix that while it was apart. Dale provide me with the correct speedi sleeve and after cleaning up the grooved area, I installed the new sleeve. I'll leave it off until after the block is painted in order to get good coverage on the front cover rather than having to try and get behind the pulley once its back on. One day at a time...
Jusk.......Wow, I am thoroughly impressed with the incredible job you are doing......way past what I did on my restoration.....you have me beat hands-down. :notworthy :notworthy You are doing the job right, while I did a half-azz job that looks pretty good, but will not last the test of time like yours will. Great pics you are providing, and we have a clear understanding of the extra difficulty you go through just getting parts to/from your island paradise. I think the supervisor wearing the mask is pretty impressed too. I see the racoon (supervisor) eyeing the front left axle spindle. Thats the same side which gave me a super difficult time when I was trying to pull it apart to replace the shot bearings. Hopefully your spindles and bearings are still in good shape and you dont have to tear into them.
68case, The axle and spindles will just get a wire brush and going over with 120 paper. I rebuilt the axle some years ago with new aftermarket ends and one used spindle to replace one that was toast. All new bearings, good quality grease and it will last a few more years. My little bandit friends come to see what kind of progress is being made if any. They like the pond that is just out of the picture and its a lot of fun just watching them play. Kshansen, that is the original head that the machine shop did the valves on and decked it to be sure that it was true. The cleaning is time consuming but well worth it. Nice to pick up something to put back on that is at least clean and ready for paint. As long as the coons don't decide to inspect my tool box, they are welcome to hang out. We have a deal going that when the big door is up, they don't come inside. The little red squirrels don't care about any deal and are often running around way in the back. I take special care to be sure nobody is shut in at the end of the day. I have a couple of young deer that are so curious about what's inside that they walked in and had a good look around. I couldn't get them to do any work but they like to watch from a distance.
Jusk.....Im still impressed by the over the river and threw the woods to jusks island we go round trips you have to take just to get it done.......And like 68 my hats off to you on all the work you are going threw to get her looking new i didnt go that far with mine and yours will look great for years.....Before you know it she will be purring like a kitten and the payback will begin.....Looks like your getting to the fun part of putting it back together for me that was more of a reward than breaking it down..... I know what you mean about that crank nut and being nervous i went threw that with the shuttle questioning my sanity of tearing apart a shuttle that was working but it paid off ......I remember the first time i threw it in gear thinking is this old girl even going to move lets just say the old butt cheeks relaxed when she moved for the first time........Same thing with the throttle shaft on the fuel pump that pumpguy rescued me on.......I think it is wise to be nervous it helps to pay attention and hopefully get it right the first time.... Your supervisor is cool mine was the wife and when the green was going out i know she was questioning my sanity.... Great job Jusk
Thanks 68Case & Xpack. You guys have been my inspiration and while I was laid up, I had lots of time to think about what I wanted to end up with. Now that I can put in a decent day, it should move forward. Xpack, the island thing is self inflicted. We love it over here and I had room for the shop, and the need for a tractor and... well you get the idea. The heavy transport is sometimes an adventure but we try to make it count so that we don't have to pack as much on the boat. As for the green, I have stopped counting and just put the invoices into a drawer. My wife is actually the one who encouraged me to overhaul rather than look for a replacement. She knows I would never get the capability in anything close to what this one cost, even with the overhaul. We tend to keep our stuff a long time, same as our relationship, now over 40 years and still going. Off to clean more parts....
Truly awesome attention to details Jusklata. Keep those pictures coming. Especially of the island, it is a beautiful place.
Another update since the last one. I have continued to clean off bits and pieces in the big parts washer and getting everything ready to paint. The front axle assembly is cleaned up, primed and hanging around waiting to get the colour coat. I also have the front axle cat support clean and primed. The engine is partially assembled and primed. Once I paint up the block and whats on it already, I will add the injection pump, injectors and the balance of the fuel system. Once all the parts are back together, I can do a touch up of those pieces that were not already painted. Here's some pictures of progress (or lack of it...) One of the re-cored rad and the rebuilt injection pump and new injectors. I them pop tested by the shop that did the pump. The other two are of the 'Paint Shop' set up outside. The scaffolding makes it easy to move outside and back in when it gets painted.
Jusk....Great idea using the scaffolding with wheels to move those big assemblys in and out of the shop......as my dad would say, "thats using the ole bean". Everything is looking great.
Today was paint day. I wanted to try to do some painting and today was as good a day to relearn what I used to know. Gone are the days of the old paints and using a dust mask for PPE. I'm no show car painter but by the time I get the last of the yellow parts painted and back on the tractor, I'll either never paint anything again or can be satisfied that I could. The orange parts are pretty easy to cover, just a first pass as a tack coat and then wait for a bit, another pass to even up the colour, let that sit for a bit longer and then the last blast to finish up. Its supposed to dry to touch in 5 hrs, and today is just over 70F, so maybe tomorrow it will be ready to handle. The cure time is 7 days. Dupont Imron, mixed to match Case Power Red. Tomorrow, I plan to get the engine block done so I can assemble the rest of it. Here are some pics of a couple of hours work. I spent as much time suiting up, mixing and cleaning the gun as I did actually applying paint....
OT Island Pictures This is sort of off topic, but since some of you expressed interest in the 'island', here are a few pictures of stuff that goes on around here... I will look for some better ones to add in later, but these are here on my laptop. Dock Maintenance. When your front door is the water and the garage is your dock, you have to look after things. This is a local contractor lifting the 4 ton mooring blocks and replacing the 3/4 inch long link galvanized chains. With tides, winds and wear we get 8-10 years before they need work. When I was younger, we did it ourselves with a diver and a lot of hard work. Adjusting them so everything stays in place is the biggest part. The crane made that easy and in the past year since these were taken, nothing has moved.
OT, Another 'Island' one Here are a few of the Orcas transiting Dodd Narrows, just 1000' down at the end of the road from my driveway. When they come through, everything stops and we all head down to see them. For any of you guys watching who have boated in the PNW, this passage is likely familiar to you. The current runs up to 9 knots at maximum when we have big 16' tides and reverses direction with the flood and ebb. At times its like a raging river and other times dead stopped like a lake. Tug boats tow log booms through at slack and its always amusing to watch pleasure boaters making their first passage of the narrows. For those who do you tube, there are many really good posts of Orcas in Dodd Narrows for your enjoyment, going back a number of years. Its a special treat to see them here. This is a good one with Orcas feeding and Sea Lions trying not to become their dinner... http://www.youtube.com/********=JwO-tO24UXs
Jusk............Last weekend i helped my son in law with repairing his rocker panels on his new to him silverado (used) but in really good shape and the rockers were just starting to rust so we opted to just repair them this time around and repaint them the original color......So we went to our local body shop supply and the mixed up the matching color and put it in a rattle can then we bought a rattle can of clear that had a button on the bottom of the can that you press before using it and it releases a activator in the can then you have to use it within 24 hrs or it hardens in the can..........We were both very happy with the results of these.... the paint was very dull when applied almost scary dull but when you hit it with the clear man it got real shinny ...not at all like the old paint i used 20 years ago......... Awesome setup for the paint booth way better than doing it inside that is going to be one sharp rig when you get her done and even though it is a lot of work it sounds like you are enjoying doing it and the big reward will come as soon as you get to work her again.......The hard part is watching the new paint wear off the buckets while digging ..... Have you decided on a name ????????? After all this you just gotta name it.........hahahah Once again Awesome pics of your surroundings that crane reminds me of the old northwest 25 i had except mine was a lot older and smaller im sure...... keep it coming.........
Nice work Jusk and nice spot you've got there. Doesn't everyone have pods of orcas in their front yard? Is that an air supplied respirator or just a filtered mask? I agree that cleaning the gun is the worst part.
Det skinner sum katten lort y manskin........that shines like cat **** in the moonlight, as my Danish grandmother used to say.
Xpack, I've had a few names for her already.... I had seen the rattle cans filled but never with one that you could control the activator. I'll have to ask my paint supplier. Grady, I have an SAS supplied air hood that I used when applying the paint. I managed to borrow it from a friend just for this project. The one in the picture is a 3M full face that I was wearing when mixing and filling the gun. The Imron uses an isocyanate activator which I have some respect for. The Orcas are a special treat and sometimes a few will breach right in front of us. Not much work gets done when they are around. 68Case, Ya, its shiny but I actually had them mix the semi gloss since I wasn't sure how it would turn out if I went shiny. Another advantage is that it can be recoated without having to sand the surfaces first. I'm hoping to coat the engine tomorrow and then it can sit and cure for a few days while I do other things around here.
Like watching the work on restoring these tractors! Reminds me of the job I did many years back on my little Farmall BN, took that down to every last nut and bolt. Well actually did not unbolt the seat pan from the support but everything else came apart. At that time I had access to the hot tank at work to clean off grease and strip the paint. Two regrets are that I only used rattle cans to paint as I assembled it, looked good but paint has not held up as good I I would have liked. That Imron will probably out last most of us! The other regret is I did not take pictures along the way, that was before digital cameras and the old Kodachrome would have cost almost as much as the parts I used. Must have done some thing right as I just checked records and that work was done over the winter of 1985-86 and it is still running strong powering a 72 inch mower deck today. But I don't have Orcas to distract me from work!
kshansen, I didn't really want to tear it completely down and need the tractor for work sooner than later. But when you run into things that need doing and want to fix the stuff that was on the list, its easy to get it all into pieces. For my needs this one should last the years we'll need it here on the island. The problem with having a place and shop here, and a house and home a couple of hours away, is that neither of them get as much time as they should for all the upkeep. But, I used to do everything myself and in the last few years have gone to farming out the stuff I'd rather not bother with or have done. I have to get a roof on my house and will have it done. I've done enough and would rather spend the time on the island playing with my stuff. Where my home is located, is a semi rural area and they have a great fair in the end of the summer. It has all the traditional stuff and my favourite is the tractor display. Lot of restored old tractors and I am always amazed at how much work is put into them. The pictures of the transformations are particularly impressive. Your Farmall would have been a great project and has shown the value of a complete restoration. Having a machine that you know all about, is simple and easy to maintain and repair is why we keep these older tractors going. I'm hoping mine will turn out as well as yours did for you. I'm hoping to get going on painting the engine once the sun comes up a bit and will post some results in the next few days. Once the block is done, I can assemble the rest of the fuel system and manifolds before getting it back on the tractor. Once I have the engine and front end reinstalled, I will float the steering and split the tractor for some seals and shuttle work. That's an unknown territory for me, so will rely on all the good advice and expertise from the guys on here. Thanks for all the comments, its keeps me motivated to get on it.
Jusk ........this is a link to the rattle can clear im not sure its the exact stuff but it operates the same http://www.repaintsupply.com/spraymax-2-part-2k-urethane-aerosol-clear-coat-p3685.html Keep her shiny easier to keep her clean after you get her done the only thing i did to dull it down was where i step to give it some grit .......I bought some of that sticky backer non slip stuff off ebay and used it on the floorboards and the side rail where the little step is welded and that was just so i didnt tear up the paint on the rail on the pedals and the small diamond plate you step on in the rear to use the backhoe i sprayed a little truck bed liner then sprinkled some sand then resprayed the truckbed liner over the sand to give them some grit ........ So far the non slip stuff and the liner seems to be holding up ...........time will tell...........
Xpack, That's pretty neat. I have never seen one with the activator in the same can. My paint supplier can do rattle cans and he told me that they did some for a guy who wanted the paint and activator in the can. He went home and painted his project finished with great results. The Imron that I am using has a very sooth surface but just not a mirror sheen like on 68Case's Corvette... It will shine and has the advantage of being able to overcoat a clean surface without surface prep like sanding. Once I have all the Case Power Red painted out, I will use gloss for the yellow portions. The single stage urethane bonds to any solid surface and should stand up to the wear and abuse they get. I'm not sure I can get as fancy as you guys and paint the buckets out, but we'll have to see. I have the cab sections ready to haul off and sandblast. I can do small parts but so much surface area would take too much blast media and we have to haul it all over here... I just finished cleaning up after doing the engine, so now I can let those parts cure for a few days and then move on. Its not noon here yet but I here a cold beer calling me to quench my dry throat. The supplied air hood works ok but I am partial to a full face mask and cool moist air.
Engine Painted Well, I was up early anyway, so got the engine out of the shop and hanging around the 'paint booth'. While I had the gun wet, I did the power steering pump and some of the plates and support brackets. I used the old exhaust gasket as masking and there is only a bit of paint to come off on that flange. The valve cover will get a coat when I do some more smaller bits. They can all hang around for a couple of days and then I will get the injection pump and gear installed, along with the injectors and lines. I will want to touch up the areas where the sling is attached and anything else that look like it needs more colour. Paint specs say 7 days to full cure. I didn't use any accelerator and with about 70F here when I painted, its still a touch tacky but can smell the off gassing as it dries up. If we get cooler weather and the prospect of rain, I'll either tarp the lot or move it inside since the frames are on wheels.
Looking good jusk keep up the great work one things for sure if you have any oil leaks after you get it together you will see where its coming from i found a few on mine but now that all the crud is off there i was able to find and fix them ...........
Thanks Xpack, I'm hoping there won't be too many with new gaskets and seals. If I do find some, at least I will know what it will take to fix. Since the paint is still curing, I decided to let the parts hang out for a couple more days. I cleaned up the tools and have started to dismantle every thing in the way on the torque tube. I have taking a page out of Xpack's book and will be using a scaffold frame setup to hang the steering column and all the attached control stuff. It will just go out of the way for now and later be taken outside for another cleaning. I can't believe how much dirt is under and behind every piece. I had done 3 really good cleanings but nowhere near as clean as I thought it would be. When I removed the battery box, I discovered that I had repaired it once before (forgotten) and now it will need to be replaced. It will get set aside for now but I will make up a new one and have it ready for when I reassemble everything. Once I have the engine and front axle back on the tractor, I can roll it outside to clean the torque tube and rear end before opening up the top covers. I want to try and keep it all as clean as possible. As tomorrow July 1st, is Canada Day, we are spending the afternoon and evening with our friends and neighbours here at the island. We do annual 'Dock to Dock' or 'Deck to Deck' socials where the party travels around to everyone's place for snack, refreshments and friendship. This year we are doing 'Deck to Deck', so no boats are involved. Other years we travel by boat to each dock in succession and end at the most westerly place to watch the sun set and reflect on how fortunate we are to live where we do and wonder where the past year has gone so quickly. I'll be back at the tractor project on Saturday....
Hey Jusk i am just curious ....Were you going to do anything with the torque converter or do you figure all is good there ???? And something i remember doing with mine was when i mated the engine with the torque tube i ended up turning the torque converter so the allen drain plug in the torque converter lined up with the drain plug hole in the bottom of the torque tube and when installing the engine i put a allen wrench in that plug to hold the torque converter from turning as i turned the crank on the engine to get everything to align and mesh .....It was kinda a pita until i did this as the torque converter would turn with the flywheel......the only other thing i remember was being extremely careful with the gasket that goes between the engine and torque tube ...........Hope this helps when you start reinstalling the engine......
Xpack, Thanks for that tips. I was going to leave the torque convertor alone as I don't see anything that I could improve by tearing it down. I did line the allen plug in the convertor up with the drain plug hole, but hadn't thought about using a wrench there to keep it from turning. When I pulled the engine, there was no o ring between the flywheel and the torque convertor. I'm not sure what its purpose is but will put a new one back. The gasket on the bell housing will get placed using High Tack gasket cement and a few bolts to keep it in alignment until I get it closed up. Looking at it today, I was wondering how to get it all lined up and plan to use my lift table to place the engine and longer bolts to close it up. I'll be extra cautious to make sure I get the gasket in properly as I don't want to have to get another one or find it leaks later... I'm working to strip the stuff in the way for the shuttle pump and shuttle removal while the paint cures. I hope to start early in the week to get the engine back in followed by the front end and axle. Thanks for the guidance, as I'd rather not do it again... On the paint, out in the sun today, it sure is orange. Under the shop lights its seemed different but is mixed to the Case Power Red code from their book. Its exactly the same as a panel from under the steering column that I had in a box for all these years. I ordered what is supposed to be semi gloss and its a lot more gloss than what was on it, certainly not flat, so I think it should work. I'll see once we get to the yellow and am wondering if full gloss would be too much for the sheet metal and loader/backhoe. I want it shiny but don't want to have to wear sunglasses to operate. Have a great weekend
Jusk ........i think the oring you are referring to is the same one that i questioned i thought it would be right there in the open as well.......Take a look at the big gear on the torque converter and just behind the teeth you should see the big oring just behind the teeth its kinda a flat (big) oring if i remember right .......... Heres a pic of it on my torque converter look just behind the big gear............. Heres a pic of the new oring
I'll butt in here on this "oring" not that I know what I'm talking about but that's never stopped me before! What is being called a "gear" looks to me to be the splined coupling to the flywheel. If that is the case I'm thinking it's purpose is more for damping the movement in the in the splines to control a rattling noise than to be a seal. Just a very uneducated guess on my part.
Yea kshansen i dont believe its there to seal anything either im not sure what its purpose is and stupid me im thinking Dale from tractorstuff did tell me what it was for but i cant remember .....It may be like you said a dampener..........And the (gear)??? does mesh into the inside of the flywheel..........
Xpack, I had a look and see that I do have that gasket, just didn't realize it where it was located. Today, I replaced that gasket, although they looked identical, I suspect they are intended to provide a buffer between the flywheel and troque convertor. I now have a good used spare... After looking at 68Cases's painting project, I decided that there was no way I could meet that standard without a complete disassembly and cleanup. I decide to pull of the loader frames and backhoe mounts for a good scrape and clean befornew paint. 68Case nust have spent a lot of time under his, because I power washed mine 3 times and still have a lot of hidden greasy dirt uder everythin I take off. I have has visitors, so have not had as much free time as I wanted but we enjoy having folks stop by, so a delay is not so big a deal. In the last couple of day, I removed the steering column assembly, and the right loader frame. The lleft will follow once I get the bolts loose. This will let me get at all parts of the tractor wwithout having to lean over and hopefully save my back for more important work... Today, I moved the engine back into position and with the guidance provided by Xpack, it was fitted up without any issue. With some time to spare, the front casting was bolted up and everything was torqued to spec. I was fortunate to have my neighbour out to their palce on the island and called on him to lend a hand for some of these jobs. Sometimes another person will make it go three times as fast. Tomorrow, I hope to get the front axle assembly back in place. Once its all back on wheels, another good cleaning is in order before I pull all the covers on the torque tube. After its inside and dried off from its bath, I will split it again between the transmission and the shuttle. In order to get the right loader frame off, I had to pull the traction lock assembly and found that it has some oil and no gasket between it and the brake assembly housing. I'll get to that once the shuttle is looked after...
Here are a few pictures of the progress...
Jusk.......Just like the pilgrims of ages ago would look up at the cieling of the Cissteen Chaple and see old man Michaelangelo laying on his back day after day doing his famous painting, dangling on a jerry-rigged rope and scaffolding system, and shouting up, "Man, I really admire your work!" Same applies here.......I admire all the work your doing.......it far passes what I did on my ole 580CK "Greased Lightnin". Between you, me, and the ole fencepost, I did not paint the inside portions of the loader frame between the engine and the loader frame (where the hydraulic fluid is stored). It actually was still in pretty good shape, and you cant really see up in there anyway.
Not a lot of progress today, but I did get the front axle assembly reinstalled. I fooled myself into thinking that I could just lift it into place and slide the axle onto the pin in the front casting. Ended up that I had to unbolt the front casting, slode the axle on and then lift back into place so the mounting at the rear of the pan would fit. I always like doing stuff twice, but at least I hadn't mounted the rad yet. I have boating visitors coming, so will be spending some time down on the dock instead of the shop for a day or two.
Jusk looking mighty fine shes gonna be a beauty when you get done .........I notice yours has another block on top of your torque tube than mine (see pic) any idea what that is for on yours ?????? just curious.....
Xpack, If you look at my picture again, you will see the filter housing we discussed on another thread some time ago. That housing and the valve body would be used for the Case version of the 3 point hitch available on some models of the 580. In the parts book, there are two different valve castings, depending on whether you have the 3 point equipped or not. We had old friends drop in by boat at the cabin. Not much work got done for a few days and then had to help an island friend get her rainwater collection tank set up and plumbed. I'm falling behind on my postings and am at my home now to deal with some boat maintenance. I trailered it home as its easier to clean and work on the sterndrive while its sitting in my driveway. On the 580CK Project, so far, I have reinstalled the front end and axle, remounted the front wheels, installed the power steering pump, starter, injection pump, injectors, injection lines, fuel filters mountings, filters, both manifolds, set the valves and timed the injection pump. Its starting to look a lot like a tractor again, at least up front. I spent Wednesday scraping another pail of gunk off the torque tube and rear end. Who knew they could still be this dirty after 3 power washings.:Banghead Without the floor boards and loader frame, its much easier to roll up a chair and scrape away. When I get back to the shop early next week, I will roll her back outside and do another complete degreasing and wash before starting the tear down of the torque tube and rear end. I will be setting it up on the stands again so I can split and change those seals at the front of the transmission. The brakes will have to be taken down and inspected along the way also. I will be taking lots of pictures and posting as much as I think will be of value to others, like you and 68Case have done for me.:notworthy This is all new territory for me now as I have never been into this type of stuff before. Sometimes when I'm not sure, I just sit down and reread the Service Manual and look at the parts book again. Your posts are also a great reference and encouragement. It all comes along eventually. All good fun anyway. I figure that by the time I have torque tube and rear end together again, the weather should be good enough again to paint it all orange. I have some touch ups to do but will get to that when I have some other painting going on. I am impressed with the Imron so far as once its cured it seems to be tough stuff. Drying and curing though, it stinks and I'm glad I painted outside. I'll get up some decent posts and pictures of where I am with this once I am back at the shop. One day at a time...
Top Plate Differences Here is a picture of the top plate on my 580, with the cast in filter housing and valve body for the Draft-O-Matic 3 point hitch and auxiliary hydraulics. The filter housing is empty and the valve body is a dummy to cover the holes in the plate. We kicked this around on another thread but Case must have changed between '68 and '70 when Xpacks was built.
Onward with the project This is where it begins to get interesting and is all new territory for me. Just to bring this up to date, I have got the engine back together, and some of the bits back on. I set the valves and timed the injection pump. The most of the fuel system is back together with new injectors. I'll touch up all the piping and the bolt heads with a brush once I am mixing paint again, hopefully sometime next week.... The front wheels are back on so I can move it outside for another degreasing and cleanup before pulling the covers off the torque tube.
I wheeled the tractor outside, brushed a bunch of degreaser onto the torque tube and rear end and give her a 4th power washing. Any remaining dirt and grease will be cleaned off before I reassemble each piece. Here's a couple of cleanup pictures.
Shuttle Pump Pickup Tube and Debris After I used the gas leaf blower:tong to dry off the tractor, I pulled the covers on the torque tube. The shuttle pump pickup tube had some debris, both magnetic and some non magnetic litter.:beatsme The corner below the pickup screen has some debris collected and I used a magnet to pick up all the magnetic stuff and reached down with a paper towel and got the remainder. Some of it is reddish like the glyptol inside the cast torque tube but I can't see anywhere that it has been worn off. There were some bits of metal that look like they were once the springs from the shuttle packs but I won't know for sure until I get it on the bench. I was surprised at how clean the bottom of the case is, with just a little dark sediment that will wash out easy when I have the shuttle pack pulled out. Here are a couple of pictures of the pickup screen, junk in the case below the pickup and a close up of the stuff that came out of the bottom and off the screen. I have moved the tractor back indoors again and will work to clean off the old gaskets. Once I am cleaned up, I will set up to split the tractor between the shuttle and the transmission. Once split, I can replace those seals that I think are leaking and pull the shuttle for the real fun.... I am rereading Xpacks posts about his shuttle rebuild and hoping to learn something....
Hey Jusk ............Me thinks me sees pcs of springs in that deb re to........A few pointers to look for 1) pay close attention to the different gaskets on those plates and make sure you have the correct ones maybe lots of pics... 2) that pickup tube take it off and replace the gasket/o-ring i dont remember what it was i think gasket....Also you might check the tube itself for pin holes i have heard of them getting holes i pressurized mine to check for leaks.....I use a potato on one end and shove a metal air nozzle threw the potato to get a seal and just put my hand over the screen end ............ If you havent done it yet you should see when you remove the shuttle valve body there is 1 spring and a small metal ball between the valve body and the big plate just watch for them i think i posted pics of their location in my thread...... How were your brakes do you need to rework them to ????????????
Xpack, Thanks for the pointers. I had Dale provide the gaskets and some O rings and think I have all the correct ones. I will check each one as I disassemble and clean the pieces. I noted the ball and spring in your post about this. I hadn't thought of checking the pickup tube, but will add that to the list. Looking at the gaskets and the way the paint covered everything, this area has never been apart. I am moving all the small (and some not so small) plates and pieces to the bench where I have good light and can make sure all is clean and in order before reassembly. The bits of debris do have what looks like wire from the springs and given that I had the shifting gears issue when the shuttle is in neutral, I suspect that is where it came from. The Service Manual and Parts Catalog don't show the springs anywhere as part of the process except to mention that if they are loose to replace the clutch hub I'll understand better when its out on the bench. Did you use any pullers to get the shuttle apart? I have some, but want to get tools needed lined up before I get out the big hammer... My younger brother is coming for a boating visit in a week and he is a master mechanic and technical wizard, a lot like my dad was. I'll get him to help with the shuttle once its on the bench. Other than the shifting problem, its always been good and not caused any problems. The brakes were good as they get, which isn't too good but since I'm this far, they will come apart for cleaning and inspection. I didn't order any bits yet but Dale indicated he could supply whatever I needed. Some years ago, I replaced the left disc and balls due to them locking up from wear in the grooves the balls roll in. That nearly caused a serious issue as when the brake was applied, the left locked up and turned the tractor hard over on a slight hill.:bash I pulled the traction lock off in order to get the loader frame clear but have never been further on that side. In anticipation of worn seals, I did have those included with the parts I already received, along with the outer two for the rear axles. Once I get in there, I will see if any of the brake linings have been contaminated with oil and if they have, will renew those. I was enjoying working outside this afternoon but its clouded over and I rolled the tractor back inside in case of rain. Our July has been cooler and wetter than some recent years but its kept the forest fire hazard down, which we won't complain about out here. If I can just get some nice warm 75-80F weather when I'm ready to paint out the rest of the orange, I'll be happy. I still have a bunch of parts to clean and set up before I get into the paint again, as I want to do most, if not all of the orange stuff in one session. Then, they can cure before I reinstall the steering and related plumbing. I'm hoping to get set up tomorrow and do the split. I have the landing gear that I put together for the engine removal to hold the torque tube and will use my shop floor jack under the transmission. I do have stands that will go in once its apart enough to pull the shuttle and work on the seals on the transmission case.
Yes i did use a 3 jaw puller under the gear to pull the bearing see pic yea Dale was the one who told me about changing the springs and said case says change whole hub but he said thats B.S. and he sells just the springs once you get it apart there pretty easy to change ......... And sorry if you already mentioned this my memory isnt that good anymore and im sure this cold beer isnt helping............ but did you determine if your shuttle is rockford or twin disc mine was rockford and my understanding is they are easier to break down where the twin disc shuttle requires a press at least thats what i read about them .......
Xpack, Thanks for the picture. I have a decent 3 jaw in the arsenal, so should be good to go. Mine is also a Rockford, which I confirmed before starting down this long and winding road. Dale provided me with the replacement springs and I am replacing them. I will look at the discs but the shuttle worked fine, so the springs alone should fix my shifting issue. As for the cold beer, I completely understand. I am finding the wife's wine making hobby is cutting into productivity here. She is worries about running out and makes a batch every month. In the cold room under the stairs, there are around 300 bottles in various states of readiness. So, we should be good for a year or more if the liver holds out.... We might starve to death, but will go happy. Thanks for the picture, it confirms what I suspected I would need. I don't mind getting a tool if I will use it but don't add to the collection anymore without just cause. The Twin Disc is not as simple to work with. I have some experience with the clutch and reduction gears behind big 6 cyl Cat engines and they can be complicated compared to most Rockford stuff. Once upon a time, I had a small boat with a 9hp Briggs engine and a Rockford clutch on the shaft. That was one of the nicest little boats I ever owned and we had a lot of fun with it. Sometimes I regret that I still don't have it but it would have been over 60 years old now and was tired when I rescued it many years ago. I just did a mid season maintenance on my boat, so now there is not reason not to get on with the tractor stuff. I can hardly wait to crank her up and hear that engine running again (I hope)...
Oil Levels Issue Cause This morning, I was cleaning out in the shop and did some parts cleaning. I use a degreaser and then power wash everthing off. Today it was the footboards, battery box and the steering column assembly. The battery box is shot and I will need to replace it. A chance to use some of my other tools to fab a new one.:cool2 I left the pieces to dry outside and pulled off the transmission cover. Some time ago, we had a discussion about the return tube between the rear end and the torque tube that was used on tractors that had the 3 point Draft-O-Matic and auxiliary hydraulics equipped. On our TLBs, this tube is normally plugged. Mine wasn't and is likely the reason for the level in the rear end rising. With some very steep grades that I have to climb around my property, it would have transferred some oil each time. The picture shows the tube in the front right corner of the transmission case. I think Delmer posted about this tube and to check for the plug. Thanks for the heads up.:notworthy
Jusk ...........will you be replacing the sealing rings in the shuttle i think there was one for each piston maybe 2 also im thinking there are 3 on the mainshaft that goes into the torque tube .......if you look at the pic with the puller on it you can almost see the grooves where these sealing rings go .........If you do just be extremely careful with them they are real brittle like piston rings but these ones actually hook together at the end of each ring.....the mainshaft rings are easy to change but you will want some help to do the piston seal rings as there in a pita spot to get your fingers in there and you have to buy them as a kit so if you break 1 you have to buy the whole kit to get 1 .....been there done that one.......After doing mine my pressure increased to about 190 it used to be around 180..........also Dale told me that the disc rarely ware out i changed mine just because i had it down but after putting the mic to my old ones compared to the new ones im sure the old ones were still good............If you get into yours and need any disc i still have the old ones i would be glad to ship what you may need ........... Will you be leaving that tube in the rearend and shuttle compartment open or are you going to plug it off..........i would think with that there you would run hy trans in the rearend as well ????????? HAHAHA........the anticipation of hearing her run and seeing her move after this much work i know what you mean ..My thoughts were did i tighten that bolt ,hook that valve up right,fix that throttle shaft backwards,forget a part in the shuttle or torque converter or put them in wrong.......The starting of my engine went fairly smooth but when it came time to throw it in gear the old butt cheeks were definitely tightened up and then i threw her in gear and it moved and i felt the load drop....great feeling.....needless to say time for a beer..........I cant wait to see you get to the point of the beer as well like you say one day at a time will get that last bolt in place .....
Thanks Xpack, I think you had pointed out those rings and the care required. I will be getting to them soon and hope to have my brother help with these. I have all the parts on hand, so once I tear the shuttle down, I should have it together again the same day. I appreciate the offer for the clutch plates and don't know what to expect. My shuttle worked fine except for the shifting the trans issue. New springs will likely fix that. The open tube is why I was making oil in the gear case and likely having some gear oil moving into the torque tube. I will plug that and call it good. Without this forum, I would never have known what that tube was for and certainly wouldn't have the tractor spread all over the shop. I'm at the stage that if it wasn't for doing all the other little stuff, I would have been rolling down the road, wind in my hair (or what there is of it) and had the use of it for some long deferred jobs. As it is, I'm awhile away from running again but hope I have the same good results you did. The loader frames will be left off until I'm happy, just in case there is something I screwed up... When its running, the beer will be on me....
Doin' the Splitz... This afternoon, I managed to get the tractor set up and split the rear end off at the transmission. I found the bolts on the loose side and when it was rolled apart, I could see the gasket had been damaged by movement and leaking. This is one of the small drips on my list to fix, so it will be an easy one. I pulled the shuttle out, and needed to be careful as it wanted to pull apart. The Service Manual says to wire it together but I just kept a close watch on it as tractor came apart. Next, the shuttle was pulled out and put down on some clean paper for a quick inspection and a couple of pictures. Looking into the bore in the torque tube case, I can see where those metal seal rings run. I can't feel any wear, so won't worry about that. Looking at the matching shaft on the shuttle. there is a bit of discoloration and I will have a close look at that area. Its near the farthest forward metal seal ring. I won't go any further into the shuttle for now and concentrate on cleaning the gasket material of the case, covers and then flushing everything out. Both the transmission and rear end look ok, no chipped gear teeth and no metal trash in the bottom of the gear case.
Here are a couple of pictures of the bore in the torque tube (at top of picture) where the three metal sealining rings run and where the shaft with the discoloration sits. Closer inspection will determine if I need to polish out those marks or if it isn't in a critical spot and can be left. On one of the two grooves between the rings, there are a couple of numbers done with an electric pencil. Makes me wonder if that is an ID or if this shuttle has ever been rebuilt before.
Jusk.......at this rate you will hear her running real soon hahahah Did you remember to check the endplay you had on the shuttle seems like we talked about this in earlier post but i just remembered it myself after seeing yours tore down ....keep a close eye on those spacers/shims that look like there on your rearend input shaft .......i forgot to check mine before the split and got lucky that mine fell in tolerance when i put it back together or i would of split it again to get the right clearance......I think this endplay if wrong could cause the 3 rings on the shuttle shaft to align wrong in the torque tube with the oil passages and maybe allow oil to leak into the different ports ?????????? what do you think???? If you need the procedure for this endplay just let me know and i will try to find it ......... I think if you just clean up that shaft with some emery it will be fine heres a pic of mine just for comparison
Xpack, I did remember to check the endplay and will see where I end up when it goes back together. I left those shims on the transmission input shaft when I pulled it apart, but will put them away for safe keeping. Looking at where it is now, it would have to change quite a bit before there would be issues with the alignment of the oil passages in the shaft and the torque tube. I'll watch that closely when it goes back in. I read the manual procedure over a few times before the split and will see how it turns out. At the rate I'm going, I'll be plowing snow with it by the time I'm done.... As it stands, once the tractor is done and repainted, the rest should move along relatively quickly. I have been cleaning the loader frames and will get the tilt cylinders off to the shop for seals and new hoses. I won't get to the backhoe and can wait until next spring if necessary. I have some glass to replace in the cab and will get the 4 pieces sand blasted and epoxy primed off island before painting. I can live without a cab for a bit and will just park under cover. If I run out of time, money or interest, it will just wait in the shop until I get motivated again. So far, its been fun and I am still managing to do the other stuff I have to take care of at the same time.
95* here right no and talk of over 100* this weekend and just as miserable as 30* below,,,,,,,,I need to get that outdoor thermostat installed so i can set the temp..This weather makes it miserable to get the new shop floor prepped for cement....
Jusk.......Great work! (I have not been getting email alerts of these posts, so I had alot of reading to do to get caught up). You are posting some great pics and detailed explanations to help everyone else in the future. Shoot, someday Case will require all its mechanics to read all the posts by you and Xpac to get a real education, and a few laughs on the side.
68 ..........i think you should get a patent on ole greased lightnings name....:ban:ban:ban.... as it seems to be a right of passage that if you own one of these old girls you will eventually grease your pants and with all the hits jusk is getting on his awesome thread someone will want to name theirs greased lightning and you will make millions ....:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh what happened to D26's front axle was probably one of those grease moments i know it would of been for me ......It looks like D26 is doing a great job repairing it........I know when i had no brakes there were more than one occasion where Marie got me and i remember you talking about yours kicking out of gear with no brakes downhill ......ooouch........
68Case, just remember that all I've been doing is taking it apart. The real test comes when I have to remember where it all goes and put it back together... I may be calling both Xpack and you for some serious advice on what fits where. I have a bucket that I toss anything into that I can't recall what it does. So far, on this 580 project, there are not too many pieces but I once the shuttle is apart, I might have a few in there... Xpack, I have to agree on the grease thing. So far, I am at #4 powerwash and still have gunk to scrape off almost every piece. I was off today to return my boat trailer to the house and came back with another gallon of degreaser. It has to end sometime. 68Case could be a billionaire just off the rights to the 'Greased' part. If mine turns out half as nice as his, I'll be happy. My idea of a paint job didn't include months of scrubbing but I'm getting there. For temperature, I'm sure its not as hot here as Cleveland but we are hitting 26C and that's enough for me. I;m pretty certain that things are warming up at that convention. If Xpack is trying to do a concrete floor pour, having it above 75F is almost too hot. I can't imagine 90F or more. I did mine in summer, but up here 80F is damn warm. Our usual is running about 72F and that suits me fine.
Xpac......Well, I will give Trump's wife a lifetime of free usage of "Greased LIghtnin" and never point my finger at her for plagerism. Terrible how the propaganda press wants to nit-pick at little things and make up false stories while ignoring the truth and the real issues. If people start paying me to use the name, then I am sure you will be getting a ton of orders for your custom-made Greased Lightnin signs.......we both will be billionaires. :roll Ha ha, heeee-hawwwww. Getty Up, Hi Ho Silver, Away! Yep, the pants greasin happens alot more often with no brakes, a poppy tranny, and some hilly terrain.
Jusk......Funny, I think the only degreaser I used was a gallon of stale 5-year-old gas and a toothbrush. On the tougher spots, I might have used some old diesel fuel first, then the stale gas and toothbrush. Whatever works to allow the paint to stick, I suppose. Mannnn, you have it made with those 72 degree temps. The GOP heat in Cleveland is working its way to Va.....in the 100s this weekend here. Hey, even the "Lyin ted kruz" couldnt take the Cleveland heat, and him and his wife had to go running back to Texas, where they got even more heat. Payback is great.
No Breaks on the Brakes This morning, I spent a few hours getting all the old gasket material off the torque tube and rear gear case. With that done, I'll flush out both boxes with diesel. I decided to continue to pull off the parts that I can clean up and this afternoon both brakes were pulled off and inspected. I though I might have some oil in the right side, and they are soaked. The left also has some but not as bad. I had replaced the left some years ago and they were dry then. So, I'll sit down and make a list of what I will need and send off an email to Dale. I don't need these right now, but will clean everything up, put each side in a big zip lock baggie and into a tote. Here are a couple of pictures of the right side brakes. I already had the Diff Lock removed to get one of the loader frame bolts out of the rear axle. The brakes were never much good but I can see they could be better if not contaminated with oil.
The Other SIde Here is the left side pictures. I replaced everything on this side some 20 yrs ago and they were dry then. I think my oil transfer increasing the level in the rear end my have been a factor in this seal failure.
Now What???? Now that I know the seals are leaking on the diff shaft, I have to figure out how to go about it and how much of the rear end has to be disassembled in order the get at the seals. I have the Service Manual and it describes putting some of it back together but looking into the top of the rear gear case, I can see that the bearing carrier will have to come out. Does anyone have the removal procedure or can you describe what I have to take out in order to pull the bearing carrier plate? I had also planned to replace the seals in the rear axles, so those big gears will have to come out for that anyway. This is critical stuff, so I don't want to pull it all down if I don't have to. Getting it right going back will also be required and I'm a bit intimidated by the what may be involved. I'd appreciate any advice or experience that you guys have to offer. Its not a panic, as I will move ahead and get the shuttle refurbished. I can rejoin the tractor and have lots of parts to clean and paint before I need to deal with this part. Thanks in advance....
Hey Jusk ...........When i did mine i replaced the seals on both sides but stupid me didnt take any pics...You have to remove that big phillips screw out of the bearing carrier plate then remove the plate it has been a while since i did this so here we go with the memory thing again but i do remember when putting it back together i used black tape on the splined shaft to reassemble the plate so i didnt tear the seal beyond that it was pretty self explanatory ..... I bought all new disc and shoe liners they came with rivets off of ebay back then and i remember i had some springs broke in that hub that has the ramps and balls in it and i got new springs off ebay as well This was before i knew of Dale... Heres a link from 68 doing his and i bet he has more specific pics if you need them....... HeavyEquipmentForums
Wow, Now I'm embarrassed that I didn't do a quick search before posting. That link has all the info I'm looking for and 68Case has documented it well with supporting detail from Melben. I was concerned that the shaft and gear had to come out with the bearing carrier. I also learned something looking at the pictures, because I left the two studs in when I pulled the brakes off. I'll remove them and the bearing carrier will likely almost fall off... Once I get those stuck phillips head screws out. Once side will likely take drilling off the head, as its stripped out from rust. Rusty broken bolt removal is my area od expertise. When you own old stuff, its inevitable. Thanks once again...
Jusk...........I dont think you have to remove those studs i was thinking i left them there to help align the plate on reassembly but it has been a while since i did mine ......And i think i used a impact driver with a large phillips bit in it to break the phillips screws loose it seems like i had one side that was a little tough soi used a small punch and hammer and it came loose....Im also thinking when you get the screw out, the plates took a little convincing it wanted to come off but they will come off......The big thing is on reassembly protect the seal by taping the shaft splines .....Also i maybe wrong here but i thought there were 2 seals or 1 seal and a o-ring but i honestly just cant remember ......Its obvious once you get in there......
Xpack, I'll have to look at those screws again and find the other one. For some reason, I though there was only one on each plate, but the other may be missing. Mine are rusted in solid but I can remove those pretty easy. The O ring seals the bearing carrier to the gear case and whatever other seal(s) go in the centre. Dale sent me the whole works anyway, so maybe tomorrow I'll have another look. That thread of 68Case's is exactly what I needed to read and see. After, I remember reading it before but I guess there has been a few too many bottles of wine since then. The detailed advice that Melben posted will be very useful, as I was concerned about getting it all set up again.
Im pretty sure there is only 1 screw on each plate so after you get them out the plates can be removed i also think there are shims behind those plates that are as big as the plate mounting area itself and it seems like they are kinda thin just be as careful as you can to minimize how much you tear them when you are removing the plates ......I think i tore some of mine but i just banged them back into shape and reused them.......They are between the plate and rearend housing mounting surface .....If you look at 68's thread page 3 post #43 2nd picture you will see one of these shims im talking about they may actually not be called shims but thats what they remind you of and on mine when i was removing the plate the shims wanted to stick to thplate and partof it sticking to the reared housing causing some tearing.........
Jusk.......Yep, I am glad that I posted that information and pictures, as it saves me a ton of time posting it all now. Glad Xpac sent you the link to it, and I hope it saves you some frustration in the brake rebuild process. As I recall, Melben had given me the tip of installing one side at a time, AND to be sure to temporarily place the other brake unit in place so you can lock the brakes on it.......by doing this, the brakes apply pressure to the shaft which centers it real well. This holds the shaft in the proper place on one side as you slide the new assembly and fresh seal on the other side, and prevents damaging the seal. Get one side done and assembled, and then you remove the other side and put the new seal in that side. Since yours is not assembled to the tractor, Im sure you can still rig up a way to pull the brake lever and lock it in place. You are right.....by having too much fluid in the rear housing, it makes leaks around those seals much more likely. The normal fluid level has the fluid just barely touching the bottom of those seals, except when on steep inclines, or when the gears are really sloshing the thick fluid up and around the axle seals (as when the tractor has popped out of gear and is hopping down-hill faster than a jack rabbit with Jed Clampett and his blue-tick hound behind him). Another thing I did which is probably a bit crazy and overkill........after I had the new seals in, I reached in from the top of the chamber and packed a real thick grease all over the inside of the seal. I figured the thick grease would hold there for some months and help prevent any leaks of the thinner oil past the new seals. The seals have not leaked, but theres no way to say that the thick grease is due any credit. I think Xpac is right......might only be one of those onwry phillips head screws on each side. One of mine had sheared off years ago, and I think one was missing........so I bought some allen head screws that fit perfectly into those angled slots. Also, those "spacers" are super thin and prone to rusting to the other surfaces, making it easy to tear them......so, it may be a good idea to spray some penetrating fluid around the top so it can be soaking in. Hope it goes without major issues.
68Case, You and Melben have saved my a lot of trouble with all the great information in that thread. I reread all the posts again last evening and am happy that I will be able to change the seals without completely disassembling the differential. Setup as described by Melben is reasonably straight forward. I especially appreciate your description of the drain passages as I likely would not have recognized them. It also explains why I had some oil dripping from the bottom of the rear end castings but couldn't figure out where they were coming from. I'll have to decide if I have a metal thrust washer or not and proceed accordingly. I was hoping not to get into it that far. Since I have the brakes off for cleaning and inspection, I will order the new linings from Dale and see about anything else I don't already have. I'm working my way from front to back, so will clean and flush the torque tube, rear end case and change the seals on the front of the transmission. Once the shuttle is done, it can go back and I'll put the tractor back together before moving into the rear end seals. While I'm in there, I also will be changing the axle seals on both sides just for fun... Thanks for all the advice and I will see how this goes in the next week or so.
Jusk.......No problem.....Im glad that my prior posts on the brake repairs are helping on your work. I am amazed at how you are tackling all the restoration work on your 580CK.....you just dive into it full steam and deal with the issues as they present themselves, and like the undefeated Rocky Marcino of the1950s, seems your also gonna be undefeated in this huge job. Rocky had one of the shortest arm reaches in boxing, and he developed his own style to compensate.......and he royally kicked ass. Guess we all need to figure out how to compensate when we are lacking in the experience that others like Melben have.
HaHa, 68Case, I'm the flyweight when it comes to fighters but I choose my battles carefully. This project was not on my list but I need the use of the tractor, so I'm in... The last couple days have not been the most productive but still got some very necessary things done. I washed up the worst of the oil from the brake parts and set them aside to use when I do the seals using Melben's suggestion. Once I receive the new brake linings, I will change out all of them and reinstall on the tractor. The torque tube was flushed with diesel and I wasn't really dirty. Nothing unexpected came out with the diesel, so its all good. I cleaned all the old gasket material off the various covers, rear end gear case and the torque tube. Since I had the parts washer sitting outside, I tossed in a bunch of parts and the tubing that was removed early in the disassembly. Its all now cleaned and ready for paint prep when it get to that again. The brake linkage that was left on the tractor was also removed and cleaned. I haven't decided if I should reinstall it now or paint everything first. This afternoon, I removed the seals on the front of the transmission and put in the new ones, and replaced with a new gasket. I also put a cap and clamp on that tube that likely caused my oil level issue in the first place. I'm hoping that its the last I will see of that problem. Only time will tell. Here are a few pictures of todays efforts:
Seal Replacement I probably didn't need to change the seals on the front of the transmission because I found that drain tube unplugged, but I had the new seals and the tractor is split, so thought it wasn't a bad idea. I need the practice with the seal driver anyway... When I pulled the front cover off that holds the two seals back to back, I found a piece of plastic and a bit of metal junk in one side of the lube passage. If you look at the picture showing the back of the plate before I cleaned it up, you can see that the oil passage on one side is black, while the other looks clean. The plastic junk was in the hole on the clean side. I'm wondering if it was the remnants of the plug or cap that should have been on that tube between the transmission and the torque tube. It sure looks like it could have been. The other piece was a small metal bit with glyptol paint on it, so probably just something from the casting that wasn't cleaned off and when it did, the oil picked it up and tossed it into that passage. I still have to flush the transmission and rear end with diesel and we'll see if anything else shows up out of the black sludge left in the bottom after I drained it.
Jusk .......i would be thinking the same thing as you did that have a cap on it originally ....I was thinking that if it was originally set up as a backhoe tractor it had the plug from the factory where if it was setup for 3 point it didnt have the plug ...Here is a pic of mine and i think it is original yo can see its yellowish in color probably for the oil and the spring clamp that holds it into place just to give you a idea of what kind pcs you might be looking for if that helps....... Also jusk im thinking that the seal that faces the rear end has to be driven in the case so the rear end oil can clear the outer part of that seal in those passages to be able to oil that side of the bearing on the seal plate itself......maybe you already figured that out but i wanted to throw it out there before you got it all back together....... One more thing i havent heard you mention but just so you know Dale can get the decals for these thats where i got mine and i think 68 got his from Dale as well he also has that old abe bird but you must use caution when getting it from him as you know 68's dresses as santa and well you know what my bird does hahahahhahh
Xpack, I think the piece I found stuck in the oil passage was the remnants of the original plug. I put in another one and will see if that does the trick. I read the Service Manual section about replacing the seals and it is pretty explicit about how they are placed. I think its neat that they use two seals facing each other to keep the oil from each side from co-mingling. When I set the new ones in, I used the provided placement. One is set so the oil can run down the cast in channels to the holes that come out to that seal carrier plate. I still think the old ones were good and each were double seals but since I had new ones here. I thought I should do it while the tractor is spread all over the neighbourhood... The plug would have been standard. The piece I found looked like a piece of tube similar to that shown in your picture, on the side of the clamp that is closer to the shuttle. I have not found the clamp or the other piece but based on your picture, it is a part of that plug.:beatsme The other parts may have gone out the drain hole on a long ago oil change, because the level transfer was happening before I bought the tractor in '91. I guess it must have come off and washed into the opening on the end of the casting. The channels on each side send splashed oil down to the openings and provide lube for the bearing. On mine, one side was partially blocked by the bit of the old plug or whatever it was. I hadn't mentioned it before, but I did import one of those pesky cast Eagles to adorn the front of my hopefully successful overhaul. I had kept it under cover since the local eagles might get upset if they saw a shiny new fancy eagle hanging around. The ones here can be pretty nasty at certain times of the year. Since mating and nesting season is almost over up here, the locals might be prepared to accept a new arrival. If not, you never know what they will do. Pookie dogs and cats are not safe. Racoons are smarter and stay under cover until the coast is clear... Once upon a time, I did have the original Case Eagle that had enamalled colours as part of the globe and name, but it flew off while parked at the storage lot in the Vocational School after having a bunch of backhoe work done by one of their classes. I lived and worked on the North Coast, so couldn't come and get it right away. Likley ran off with the locals to the pub and beyond... It would have been a collectors item for sure. I wasn't aware that Dale also stocked the decals. I have a friend who is a graphic designer and she mentioned that she could do up whatever I needed. But, I'm reluctant to ask as who know what will be expected in return? I will be calling Dale and ordering some parts, so maybe should add the decal set.
Whats all this bird talk about???? Kaaaaaaa-kaaaaaaaaa-Kaaaaaaaa!
68....Maybe jusk got his bird from somewhere else that Dale so his bird wont be as willing to stir up shi- but i almost think its just something in the dna in these chrome birds mine obviously ended up with to much testosterone time will tell what kinda shenanigans Jusk's bird will pull off.... I think were still waiting for jusk to announce the name of his new old tractor ... Jusk.....I remember seeing those colored birds when i was looking at them but i cant imagine what my bird would be pulling off if he had more than one color with ole Maria ..hahahaha
Xpac.......Funny:roll..........This ole Krome Bird with those huge knutz has really established a reputation accross the good ole USA. Not sure what kind of trouble Old Abe will get into left alone on an island out in the Pacific. Those Koons better keep a keen eye out for some Komma-Kassi attacks.
HAHAHAHAH ..........I never really thought about that leaving abe on a island alone Jusk may come back to a empty beer fridge ....The only way i could contain my abe was to threaten him with the welder ......HAHAHAHAH
Springs? What Springs.... Wow, I never thought that this thread would go anywhere near 20,000 views, and it passed that mark in the past few days. Must be that Voodoo stuff or something... I had to run into town this morning to have my truck looked at , so didn't get back into this until well after lunch. Since I had the shuttle sitting on the bench, I decided to tear into it as I was wondering about those springs in the clutch hub. I got as far as having both clutch packs off and could see that the springs were toast. I picked the reverse clutch pack and pulled it apart. Then I did what the Service Manual says not to do and disassembled the clutch hub to see how that looked. It all was pretty straight forward, after reading the manual, looking at the exploded parts views and comparing it to the shuttle and pieces on the bench if front of me. Each bit was its own challenge but it all came apart with a little patience. Its pretty satisfying to have confirm what my shifting issue was and why the shuttle didn't fully release in neutral. The springs in the clutch hub are supposed to separate the discs in neutral. Mine were broken and ground up inside the hub. Some of the broken springs damaged part of the hub and got out between the discs. Several are damaged and likely will need to be replaced. I will decide on a course of action once I look at the forward clutch pack and see if any there are damaged.
Here are a couple more pictures of what happened when the springs broke and were rattling around inside the shuttle. Makes me wonder where the rest of the bits got to after they got dumped out of the clutch packs... One of the pictures is of the damaged spring retainer plate that fits inside the clutch hub. Case says its not serviceable but with good advice and the experience of others, we are proving that to be incorrect. Xpackdeals posted some pictures on another thread here, and that got me thinking to do mine while the tractor was apart anyway. I purchased new springs already from Dale Weiss at Tractorstuff. I have some other stuff on order and if I find any more that needs replacement, I will ask Dale to add it to that order.
Jusk.........This looks all to familiar and keep in mind i have my old set of clutches friction and steel and you are welcome to them all if you decide you want them ........When i bought the new ones from Dale he told me that these rarely wear down but because i had mine down that far i just wanted to replace them and im thinking i measured thickness and my old ones were still good .....Anyhow just let me know..... Do you think you will be resealing the pistons ????????
Xpack, Thanks for the offer. I can't see changing all of them but some are done. I'll see how the other clutch pack looks and decide what to do with it all. Most of the discs are fine, but a couple are definitely candidates for replacement so far. I got busy with tearing into the clutch packs that I didn't get to the piston. When I was taking the other stuff apart, I couldn't get the pieces of the force piston separated, likely because of the oil seal suction and because I was being too careful. In the morning, I'll have another go and we'll see what happens. This far in, I'm inclined to deal with all of it. I do have the seal kit and should change it all...
Amazing the damage some small hardened springs can do when they fail, break, and start grinding away at nearby parts. Its gonna be a great feeling when you have it all back together and working properly, and you know exactly how those parts are operating deep down inside the tranny components. 20,000 views.....pretty darn high. Now, if only you got a few pennies per view like they do on Youtube, then it would pay for all the repair costs of the ole Case, or at least the freight charges to ship that onry krome bird from Dale's shop in Indianna to your island on the west coast.
Jusk ........here are some pics of mine and yea mine was a bit of a bear to get apart i used a brass hammer and a aluminum rod..... In this pic you can see the components in both halves and the 1 round aluminum piece in each half i believe those are called the pistons and when you get to them you will see a sealing ring on the mainshaft for each one .........those are the sealing rings that are the ones that are tough to get back in without breaking them i tried to do them by myself and broke one so i ended up ordering another set from Dale as they dont sell them individually and on my 2nd attempt i had some help...Its one of those deals where there located and not enough fingers to do it all ... Also when you reassemble the oring your fighting right now you will see that the new o-ring looks to be to big but its not it will fit with grease and patience (Dale tipped me off about this o-ring being like this) I wish i would have got better pics of these 2 sealing rings but i didnt maybe you could get a couple and post them when you get yours tore down... I was pretty nervous at this point myself lots of gadgets make up the shuttle but in the end i finally got her back together and honestly dont care to do another one .........
Xpack, Thanks for those pictures. They will help a lot. Its exactly what I need and compared with the parts diagram, I'll get it apart. I have taken a bunch and will keep them all in case someone else gets into this and needs to see what is where. You had mentioned in your thread about the O ring and sealing rings. I'll see how many fingers I can put to use when I get to that. I have a small machinists hammer and lots of bronze and aluminum stock to use to drive those two pieces apart. I was concerned about trying too hard and distorting the outer case. Easy does it on these irreplaceable pieces. I' hate to have to buy another tractor just to get the shuttle for parts. When I get going this morning, I'll disassemble and clean the forward clutch pack and hub so see what carnage there is in there. Then I'll have an idea of what will need to make it right. 68Case, who would have known so many are interested in these old tractors and the antics of shiny new Abe... Considering that my shuttle had good pressure, worked in forward and reverse just fine, I have to consider myself lucky that there isn't more damage from those springs disintegrating. I did get some metal on the magnet when I swept out the case and some on the screen, but not much. It may have come out in the previous oil changes or when I drained the shuttle case for this project. When I have it apart in front of me, I can see its actually a simpler design than what I thought from looking at the book. Lots of pieces but once you've done one, and understand how they are supposed to work its not quite as intimidating knowing what happens when you throw that lever into forward or reverse. But, I'm with Xpack on thses, this will likely be the last one I will see... Nice morning here today, sunny and will warm until the high 70F's. Perfect weather to work on a project. I have a lots of pieces to clean up sitting outside, so maybe will do some of those later today. Everyone have a great day!
Its All Apart... I got the remainder of the shuttle apart, washed clean and inspected. The forward clutch pack was in better shape than the reverse was and will be fine going back in. The clutch hub had the usual broken release springs but in bigger pieces, so I don't think too much of them got away. The retainer plate that holds the springs into the clutch hub was not as ground up as the reverse clutch hub piece. I didn't have any problem getting the sealing rings out but the last snap ring inside the accelerator piston took some doing to remove. A better tool would probably help but I had to make do with my Gearwrench snap ring pliers. I used a pick to get the hooked seal rings undone. When it came to separating the two aluminum piston parts, I decided to use a piece of 6" PVC sewer pipe that fit perfectly over the outside diameter of the force piston housing. A piece of 2x8 wood block on top of the pipe, one knock with a hammer and it popped right off. The seal was cut a little but in better shape than the one in Xpacks picture a couple posts back. Today, I had that pesky Abe watching me like a hawk (eagle) that he is and offering comments about my lack of productivity. He'd better be available when I have to put this back together, because I'm not sure I will remember where it all goes...
These next pictures show the Force Piston coming apart and the 'Mark 2 Force Piston Housing Removal Tool'. Mark 1 was a machinists hammer and an aluminum drift, but it was superceded after a couple of taps... Abe is keeping an 'Eagle' eye on everything to make sure his ride will be up to his expectations. He will be taking up permanent residence once the painting is done... Xpack, in the picture with the shaft standing on end, you can see those two hooked sealing rings, one on the outside of the accelerator piston and one on the shaft just below the splines. I'll try to get better pictures as they go back in. I'm having trouble getting a decent shot because of the bright overhead lighting and not being able to focus the camera close enough. Operator has something to do with it too. For a couple of these pictures, I turned off the lights and let the camera flash provide the light from the right angle. I'll email you regarding the clutch discs.
I think Old Abe likes his new perch.......and the old bird is thinking "Im bad ass".
Yea jusk its the ones just below the splines that you will want help with there just isnt a lot of room and not enough fingers to get in there and collapse those rings and get them hooked but with 1 persons assistance it is a whole lot easier ...... I dont know what went wrong with that bird of mine we all know what happened when i turned my back just keep an eye on that chrome bird Jusk...... HAHAHAH:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh:falldownlaugh:OMG
Yep, we are certifiably knutz, for sure. Haaaaaa haaaaa, heeeeee-hawwwwwww. :slomo
Well, since I am waiting for some shuttle clutch discs, (Thanks Xpack!) I decided to reread 68Case's thread about doing his brakes and checking the diff. The link is posted a ways back up in this thread. Using Melben's technique, I reinstalled the left hand brake assembly and tightened up the band to lock everything into place. The right hand brakes and diff lock were already off, so I just had to remove the seal and bearing carrier plate. 68Case's description of the drain passage is very interesting and I will be sure that all goes back so they are not blocked. Following some of Melben's tips, I decided to check the thrust washer on the right side and found it to be a fibre washer. This isn't good news as I will have to replace it and probably the left one also. I had pulled the bull gear and right axle as part of this inspection and plan to replace both the rear axles seals. Looking down the axle tube from the outer end, I found a lot of grease inside, past the bearing and a pool or gear oil in the bottom of the casting, so the inner seal is also leaking. I now have to decide if I should pull the axle tube and change the O ring while I'm in there. It would be a shame to get this far and not do that too, as I have the O ring in hand. My camera is on charge, so the pictures of this part will have to wait until later when I can upload them to the laptop. There is less and less tractor and more and more ziplocks with parts all around the shop but I'm actually really enjoying the challenge. A lot of old learning is coming back as this goes along. One Day At A Time...
Jusk ...........just thought i would throw this out there since your to this part ...........On my ck there is a grease zerk on the axle housing to grease those bearings im pretty sure yours is like mine......You probably know what im talking about anyhow when i was helping my neighbor on his 580 b it had little steel lines threaded into the axle housings and zerks in the other end which was a lot easier to grease because of the location of the zerk I would think a set of these lines from the b would work on the ck and i think Dale had some b's in his boneyard....Dale had told me a lot of owners wouldnt grease these and were tearing up bearings and more.......
Xpack, I had wondered about those zerks. Mine have been greased but are hard to get to with the hoe attached. When I cleaned up the axle tube this afternoon, I got about 1/2 lb of grease out from the far side of the bearing, so they had sufficient lube for life. I think that the proper size brake line tubing would work ok or I could have a hose made up to bring those up into the cab where they would be easier to reach. My Brush Bandit tow around chipper has some of the grease fittings brought out with hoses and they make it easy to keep properly lubed. I'm going to see if I can get replacement steel thrust washers and change out those original fibre ones while its apart. The adjustments after may take a bit of time but I have read over the procedure and feel I can manage to do it right. I certainly don't plan to do it twice... I also noticed the the rear axle housing has the same drain from the seal, similar to the brake area. If I end up pulling the that housing, I'll make sure its all clean and clear before putting in a new O ring. I'm looking forward to getting on with reassembly as there isn't much left to pull apart...
Shuttle Clutch Hub Spring Replacement Here are a couple of pictures showing the shuttle hub spring replacement. I had to clean up the discs that were damaged when the springs broke. The clutch plates are piled on these hubs, one for set for forward and one for reverse.
Miising Drain Tube Plug Clip I found the missing spring clip that held the drain tube plug in the top right corner of the transmission case. It had been washed down the lube channel in the casting and was sitting in the hole that feeds lube to the rear transmission bearing. I don't think it would have caused further damage but I was lucky to see it from an angle while I was pulling the brakes apart. The rest of it was likely ground up in the gears.
Brake Seal and Bearing Plate Removal These are a few of the pics I took while taking off the right brake seal and bearing plate. You can see the shims in behind the plate. One also shows the drain passage that was fully blocked on both sides of mine, which prevented oil from dripping and contaminated all the brake linings. 68Case has a good thread on this passage and I learned a lot by reading it over a few times. Another shows the fibre thrust washer used in the differential on earlier model tractors like mine. I plan the change it out as they have caused issues for others.
Axle Removal I am changing all the seals as part of this project and both the right and left axle seals have been leaking. This is the right side coming out. One picture shows the oil pooled inside the axle tube, caused by a leaking inside seal which is located just outside of the bearing in the gear case. Once the big gear is removed, the bearing and seal are accessible. I will likely pull the axle tube out of the gearcase and replace the sealing O ring while I'm this far into it.
Jusk ..........You will have her like new when your done and this thread imsure will help a lot of people for a long time .....Thanks for taking the time to put all this info out there for all to see lots of good stuff.... Good to see you solved the plug and clamp mystery and it has to be a relief to find that clip and glad the rest didnt tear up any gears..........
Thanks Xpack, I'm just following those of you that have already done all this. I have a lot of pictures that I have taken as I go along but some are not of much value to anyone except me. If any of this stuff is useful for someone else, then it is all worth it. I know I am benefiting from previous postings and the experience of all that participate. Now I have found some of both the plug and the clip that retained it, I won't be worrying too much about having anything rattling around in the gear box. My next challenge is getting those fibre thrust washers changed out to steel and learning all about how to measure the pinion to side gear backlash. Once I have some measurements, Dale will send me the right steel thrust washer and shims if necessary. I am having trouble finding my dial indicator and think its in the other tool box at the house, so have a trip to make after the weekend for some appointments and will pick it up before I come back here Thursday. I have to say once again, that I appreciate all the interest in this journey and the help from all of you who contribute to make this forum such a great resource. Thanks also to those businesses who make it possible for us to keep these old girls running like new. Without access to parts, we would be done already.
I use 1/4" hydraulic hose to relocate zerks to more favorable positions. They are easy to route with the flexability and will handle the pressure if you get a tough one.
Old Iron Habit, Thanks for the tip on the hydraulic hoses. That's likely what's on my chipper. With those rear axle zerks, bringing them up to an easier spot will keep them clean and avoid having the lay on the ground under the machine to get at them. There are a couple of others that I will also consider changing but most are actually accessible an not too hard to wipe clean before attaching the grease gun.
Beings how were talking grease zerks which is always a pita for me and im sure others i always fight the dreaded leak where the coupler attaches to the zerk... so i was at napa the other day and saw these locking couplers and thought what the heck and bought 2 of them for $ 20.00 each ......I havent tried them yet but will i will post back here as soon as i do...Here is a pic of the ones i bought and a link to the website....... http://univer-co.net/en/home/
Jusk.......You are really doing a great job, and meeting all the challenges head-on. Your posts/pics will inspire all those rookies out there (like us) who have these old rigs and have repairs needing done. If you were from Australia, you would be telling us, "No worries mate". Or, like a Nike commercial, I could picture you holding up a big wrench and a chrome bird and saying, "Just do it!". Yep, that design on the rear brakes is interesting......and the drain holes that can get clogged up or blocked if the pieces go on the wrong way.
Back At It Again So for all you guys that thought I went off on a long vacation, here are some updates. I had a few sidetracks and needed some parts but things are looking up. I ordered the replacement Thrust Washers for the rear end from Dale at Tractorstuff. After trying to figure out what I needed to replace those pesky original fibre washers, I called Dale and discussed what I might need. Dale is sending me the whole range of Thrust Washers and a few Shim Washers. I can use what I need and return the rest. So with my grandson here on a visit, we decided to go fishing for Ling Cod which make great fish and chips... Here are a couple shots of the one he caught. It had already been caught by someone else as the line and lure were still in there. I wasn't as lucky but did manage to leave the usual amount of tackle behind. We did some catch and release of smaller rock fish and I had a big one that we never saw. While he was here, we pulled off the other rear wheel, the bull gear and axle so its ready to get at the diff and side gears.
Shuttle Reassembly Before my grandson's visit, I did do some misc parts painting, including the steering column assembly. Once the shuttle is put back in and I close up that part of the tractor, I can remount that part and will be able to install it and the other control linkages. Sorry, no pics but I'll get some later. I had been waiting for some shuttle parts that arrived at my home last Monday, so made an overnight trip to pick that pack age up and see the Dr. again. I needed several shuttle clutch discs and Xpackdeals was generous in his offer to ship some of his extra ones all the way up to me. He also included some extra sealing rings and O rings that were surplus from his rebuild. Thanks Xpack! There are 7 sealing rings that have the hooks on the end to join them. I was warned that they are easy to break and are 'Case Only' parts, so if you break one, you have to buy another whole kit at around $138, and for me, add 20% currency exchange to loonies and shipping. Dale had provided the needed parts in my original order, so I was good to go. Two of these rings are in a difficult spot and I was warned that another set of hands would be required. But since I didn't have my helper, I had to make do. I cut a few strips of cardboard from box and folded then into wedges which I used to hold the seal ring in place around the hub. With it secured most of the way around, I used a small pick type tool from my old telecom toolbox and pulled the end of the ring out enough to pass the other hooked and let it lock together. I though I'd broken it as it went together so well. These two pictures are of the boxboard wedges in place. If you look closely on one, you can see the seal ring ends hooked together. I'm sure that Snap On or someone makes tools for this but I don't have any and hope I'm not having to do this again...
The rest of the shuttle reassembly So with success on the one ring, I installed the one on the other forward clutch end of the shaft and followed the assembly procedure in the Service Manual. The only thing that I couldn't find mentioned was the reinstallation of the one large snap ring but it was obvious and I placed it before adding the clutch packs. When I disassembled the shuttle, I had laid out the parts in sequence for inspection and reassembly, so it went pretty easy. There is a large O ring that can be an issue but I used a bit of grease ot hold it in place and worked the extra length into the groove, following the manual and recommendations from those of you who know about this stuff. Thanks Xpack and Dale! Here are a few pictures of it going together and the finished assembly with the three sealing rings visible on the shaft. I did some careful polishing of a couple of small spots where the destroyed clutch hub springs had made perceptible marks but otherwise it was all in pretty good shape except for damaged discs and of course the broken springs that I posted about previously. It was a bit intimidating but once I got into it and figured out it worked and went together, it is really a pretty simple setup.
Shuttle and control valve reinstalled This morning I managed to get the shuttle reinstalled, the shuttle pump, suction tube and control valve assembly mounted and torqued. I followed the Service Manual where it covered the procedure and took a few minute to lay out the bolts for the torque tube cover. There are a couple of different lengths. While I was at it, I replace some missing lock washers and a few that were looking tired. New gaskets, remembered the detent ball and spring for the valve body and no left over parts...
Pictures of Shuttle installed and Steering column painted... These couple of pictures show the shuttle installed and two of my painting efforts. I'm trying to get everything while its apart and will touch up after the whole tractor is assembled but before the loader goes back on.
Thrust Washer? What Thrust Washer... So, having done what I could before joining the tractor again, I decided to pull off the left side bearing and seal retainer plate, pull the side gear and see what that fibre thrust washer was looking like. The pictures speak for themselves and all I can say is that I'm glad that I read 68Case's post about this and followed Melbens advice in that post to check out the left side. I had already found a fibre washer on the right side and after call Dale at Tractorstuff, decided to go the 'full meal deal' and tear it all down. Dale is sending me the whole range of thrust washers and I can return those that are not required. Thanks Dale! This is all new territory as I have never done a rear end setup like this one. Once the parts shipment gets here in a couple of week, I can do this properly. In the mean time, I'll clean up the axles and look at replacing seals and O rings on both sides. One day at a time....
It's hard to understand the thinking behind using a fiber thrust washer in such a critical area that is so difficult to access. How much more would a metal one have cost compared to the cost of the repair when everything goes south because of a 2 cent part. I'd expect something like that from the automotive industry but had higher hopes for Case - especially in the old days. I guess that's how to ensure you sell new ones or at least keep the service dept. busy. Jusk, since the left side is the one that takes all the abuse, you couldn't go through all that work rebuilding everything and leave that old fiber washer in there - even if it was in good shape. That new thrust washer is critical and will help keep that differential together. I hope you'll devote some space here to the set up of the ring and pinion backlash with those thin brake plate shims and how to account for the bearing preload and rolling torque that melben alluded to but wouldn't elaborate on. I'm not sure why he's holding back. I've seen a fish scale like tool used in the manual.
Grady, I'll do my best to document the journey for those that will follow. I had no idea what was in the rear diff and it wasn't until I read the post in 68Case's thread that I found out about those. My rear end is original and never been apart before from the seeing the paint on the gasket for the cover. I've owned it for 25 yrs, and my friend, who owned it before me bought it in the early '70s. I am finding as I go through this one, that it wasn't used too hard in the early years. For me, it sits more than works, so will never be worn out while I own it. I have read the procedure in the Service Manual for pinion backlash and the other setups required. The tips posted in a couple of different places by Melben and others will come in handy. I had a brief discussion with Dale Weiss of Tractorstuff and he had some good advice. Dale is sending me 2 of all the metal thrust washers and a few of the steel shim washers. He suggested I would just return the ones I didn't need. It doesn't get better than that. Today, when I got the last pieces pulled out, I had a look at wear in the various gears and think they will be fine. Another couple of years and I think I would have been ordering a lot more parts. When I drained and flushed the gear case for the rear end, I swept it with a magnet and got a few fine bits. Wasn't sure where they came from but now think they are from the pinion and other gears. No broken bits, so I will put it back together with what I have. The process to set up the shims on each side will be interesting but seems simple enough. I have an extra brake disc and will make the 'special' tool to set up bearing preload. I had lots of old experience with special devices that required setup for preload and torque. In the US , these would have been in the underground control room of cold war concrete silos, but had different use in my part of the world. I'm a couple of weeks away from having the parts, so will carry on with other stuff for now. I am resealing both rear axles and replacing the O rings on each side. Probably paint the castings while they are off the rear gear case. Its all fun and although I have no idea what I'm doing when I start, I like to learn and would not hesitate to do any of the part I have finished so far on another project tractor. The help from everyone on this forum has made it easy and I have made new friends through this old CK. We also should never underestimate the value of the experienced contributors on here who freely offer their tips, advice and years of experience. I don't want to miss anyone, so won't name then but most of us know who they are. Thanks to all of them!
If you guys are stuck on "bearing preload & rolling torque ".. The tool guys & pawn shops sell a torque wrench w/ a dial and sweeping pointer, that reads on both sides.. tighten & loosen.. Just adapt a socket to the torque wrench and spin away.. Grady,, I too have seen and have access to the "fish scale " BUT I think that came out before the dial torque wrench.. I had one of the inch/lb dials I would have sent you, but it was lost in the great shop fire of 2015.. You can probably pick one up REAL CHEAP seeing everyone has gone to the click type.. or digital read out.. You can watch a video of a dial torque wrench in action by looking on utube under, rearend/differencial bearing preload setting.. Hope this helps alittle..
I had one of those sweeping pointer torque wrenches and also lost mine along with all my tools in a fire many years ago. I guess you could use the click type for this although seeing the range on the dial would be better. The thing about the fish scale [old school] was you could attach the hook to a piece of cord wrapped around a shaft whereas with the torque wrench you need to be able to attach with a socket. I guess that's where that "special" tool comes in - a torque wrench adapter for the side gear. A pic of your make-a-tool would be good. The one I saw in the manual was something like a piece of metal with a 1/2" square hole in it welded to an old brake disc. I was thinking it would be easier to just weld an old worn impact socket than to make a square hole since you have the welder out anyway. By the time you, xpack, and '68 are done - along with all the hints and help from those who chimed in -someone will be able to go through one of these rigs from stem to stern - and have some good fun in the process. There's a lot of them out there and they're still a good machine for doing light or occasional work around the farm or property that doesn't justify a newer more expensive machine. Their simple design makes them fixable without a degree in computer science, too - good for us old farts.
Pumpguy, thanks for the tip on the old style torque wrench. I'll have to look in the tool chest at home, that came from my father after he passed on several years ago. I think there are several from his early days in the business, and I have some specialty tools from my first career I will look at. Grady, I have taken a lot more pictures than I want to post but will spend a bit more time on this important part and try to write up a procedure as I go along. The manual is ok, but it makes the assumption you know what you are doing.... I will be making that brake disc adapter and like Xpack has done for me, can make it available for others once its duty is finished here. When I look at the views for this thread, I realize there are a lot more of these old tractors still working out there. If I do my work properly, mine will outlast my requirement and be useful for someone else. Its all fun anyway and I am remembering stuff I haven't used in many years.
Worn Left Side Gear Well, I had another unpleasant surprise from the fibre thrust washer use. Once I got the left side gear onto the bench and was going to clean it up, I found that those dark marks visible in the not so good picture are not oil and dirt, but actual wear into the side face of the gear teeth. I can feel the roughness and even with my limited experience, think it will need to be replaced. I have lots to do and will work on those other items until I can get this figured out. Thanks to advice from Dale, I did get the diff ring gear assembly and shaft out of the gear case. It was a tight squeeze but after a few tries yesterday with no luck, I went down this afternoon and lifted it out slightly forward of where I tried before and out it came. All sitting on the bench now waiting for parts....
That's not what you wanted to find. It's always something, right? How are the teeth on the spiders? It looks like there are wear marks on the top/ends of some of those teeth as well like it was bottoming out or something - hard to tell from here. I blame the fiber washer, too. POS! Does Dale have one of those side gears? I can check the cherry tree tomorrow - I'm not there now. I remember seeing the ring gear assy. but I don't know about the side gears. My memory isn't great - like I thought I remembered the manual showing that special tool having a 1/2" square hole for the torque wrench but when I got the manual for my "C" out, it showed a nut welded to it so you could use a socket. Unless the "CK" manual is different, which I doubt but it isn't here so I can't check, it's just another case of selective memory. Sorry for that. If you get away with just replacing that one gear, that's not bad - could have been a lot worse. Was your differential having any symptoms?
Lookin good Jusk and just so you know i got a new steering wheel from Dale for mine as mine looked like it had went threw a mind field and i think it was pretty reasonable .....He also got me a good used center cap for it to hide that nut....and he has some aftermarket grips for the shuttle and throttle handles i think they were $4.00 each (i cut mine down) there kinda long.....and if all else fails i think Grady has mastered the art of growing 580 parts around that cherry tree im just waiting for the new shuttles to grow around that tree so i can buy Grady a beer:drinkup:drinkup:drinkup and get him to harvest me one of them.......hahahah
Grady, For all I know, it was working fine but suspect that it would have been an issue sooner or later. Probably while I was climbing a 40%slope out of a neighbours place or something like that. I been up some so steep that I brought a boulder along to use going out in order to keep the front end on the ground. I will follow the manual and use an old brake disc with a piece of flat bar raised across it and a 5/8 nut welded to put a socket on. I did email Dale about a left side gear and will see what he says. If your cherry tree is sprouting side gears, its the 3 1/8 across the gear and non finished machine, if that means anything. There are 3 possible gears but mine is probabaly an older one. When you unearth parts, the old molasses trick works to remove rust fro gears and such. Feed stor molasses and water in a bath. Eventually, you can just wash off the molasses and the part is clean. I found this from a friend who has Sherman tanks as a hobby and he does the final drive gears and stuff this way. Compared to Sherman's, these old 580CKS are cheap to work on. I think the pinions will be ok as they are not rough or obviously badly worn. The right side gear is fine as the fibre washer was still intact. Xpack. Your donation of shuttle parts are installed and maybe tomorrow, I'll get the two halves put back together. I don't know if you noticed but in a few of my pics, Old Abe had his back turned on me but I don't know what that was about. I must have offended him with some of my words about Case and the rear differential... Dale sent me an order last Friday with all the thrust washers, a couple of shims, brake bands, disc linings, rivets, the rivet tool and those handles that he has to replace my tired old split ones. That old cherry tree of Grady's could become a real money tree as I think I'm about to get into $$$ territory if it all needs to be replaced. Dale will take care of me anyway and when its all done will be like a new? tractor or maybe better... Its warm here, so maybe tomorrow will be a parts cleaning and primer day. I want to do the axle shaft castins while they are off the rest of the rear gear case. One day at a time, but with other priorities coming up, I'd better make some better progress or I'll be painting much too late in the season to do it outside...
Joined Up and Axle Housing Off Today was a good day in the shop. This morning, I set up the hydraulic lift table under the rear gear case and went through a practice run of rejoining the tractor. Once I had it set up so I could roll the rear end and transmission up to the shuttle, I got out the gaskets and put it together for what I hope is the last time for awhile. After I had torqued the nuts and bots holding the two parts together, I rechecked the free play at the rear of the shuttle. I had measured this before taking it apart, and this time, it was a bit more than before, but still within the .010 - .025 range. Mine measured .022 so its good now. I had already pulled the bull gears and axles from the rear axles housings when I was looking at the diff and side gears. So, today I pulled off both axles housings for cleaning, epoxy prime, paint, O rings, new inner & outer seals. The castings are pretty dirty so cleaning both of them up is tomorrows task. If they look good enough, I plan to add them to the pile of bits I'm painting on Tuesday. In order to remove the axles housings, used a small hydraulic jack inside the rear end casting, some 1/4 plate to push against, and got it moving outward. I found later, that there is a threaded hole in the axle housing casting that I could have used a longer bolt in to push the pieces apart a bit. I'm not sure what the holes are for, but they would come in handy to jack out the first bit. When I removed the brakes and pulled off the side bearing, seal and O ring carrier, I had to drill out the head of the 3/8 x 3/4 phillips head screw as they would not come out and the phillips head was damaged for previous efforts. There was a small stub still sticking out of the casting, so I centre punched it, and drilled a 1/8 hole in the remaining stub of bolt. I have some old school Ridgid extractors that you tap into the hole and use a socket to remove the piece. They have never failed me but I also haven't seen these anywhere before. I'd like to buy a couple of replacement pieces for the set if anyone know what I am looking for. After discovering that the marks on the left hand side gear was not dirt or grease, but wear, I contacted Dale at Tractorstuff and he has replied and will be sending me a new left side gear on Monday. It doesn't get better than that....
Axle Housing Removal These are pictures from the axles housing removal process. The hydraulic lift table comes in pretty handy for lots of stuff. No heavy lifting...
Ridgid Extractor Picture Here is a picture of the Ridgid of the extractor I used to get the remaining stub of the phillips head screw out of the casting. I used a new (sharp) 1/8 drill bit and drilled in about 3/8", then gently tapped the fluted part into the hole. A 7/16 socket over the end and out it came... If anyone knows where I can get some replacements pieces for this set, I'd appreciate the info.
My last order from a machine tool company for "left handed" drill bits came "out of stock. I feel your pain. Howard
Not sure if they sell parts but this looks like the same type, send them an email? http://www.infinitysourceusa.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=89&product_id=470 Also I know Snap-on used to sell that style years ago could try contacting them. Just found this one too: https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/10-screw-extractor-set And with a little more digging: Scroll down the page a bit and the splined extractors are shown. http://www.northstate.com/ridgid/en-us/dept_25.html
I have 2 sets of "left handed" drill bits w/ extractors and both came off the snap-on truck.. I also have the extractor kit alone from strap-on and it looks like yours Jus.. You probably don't see the tool truck cruising around your island much, huh?? Lol
Thanks guys, I'll check those links out. This set belonged to my father and a few of them have had a hard life. He worked in the trade for many years before moving off the bench. I know he'd be happy that I am using his tools and what he taught me all those years ago. The screw extractors are branded 'Ridgid'. Over the years, they have removed broken axle studs on a few of my old dump trucks and other stuff. Very handy. I've never had much luck with the screw type but the one I owned were always the cheap stuff. Pumpguy, the truck would need to have 'water wings'... I did snag a business card from the local Snapon guy not long ago in case I needed something special. I can always borrow from my brother, but he makes his living with these tools so I am reluctant to ask. Today is parts cleaning day and if I have enough bits prepped, will expoxy prime and paint them tomorrow. Once the rear diff and brakes are done, I will clean and paint the tractor from the bell housing back. The all the linkages can go back on and then I will do the fluids, and go through pre-oiling, startup and adjustments. I can't wait... One day at a time...
Some of my parts arrived and all I am waiting for now is the new side gear before I can get at the rear diff setup and reinstallation. I have painted the axle tubes and some other parts that are now set aside for reassembly. While I am waiting for the side gear, I thought I'd get at changing the axle seals. The inside one was easy, but to do the outer axle seal, I have to remove the bearing. The axle is around 3ft long and I don't have anything that can pull on that length. I was thinking of a Kluge Built puller, with some threaded rod and unistrut but would like to hear any suggestions to get these bearings off without damage because I will be reusing them. Thanks in advance for any ideas on this one...
Jusk.........I am always amazed at your book of tricks and really like seeing you bring them to your thread this stuff is better than any manual out there.....Thats cool that you can use the tools that were your dads it is really something to be able to remember using this stuff with your dad and be able to use them for yourself...I do the same thing with my Dads tools that were left for me as well....I have a big maul that my dad has named Birtha and every time i use it that memory hits me its so much more than just a maul to me.........Real good stuff here.... Keep the good stuff coming.........
Xpack, its inspiration from guys like you and 68Case that keep me going. Sometimes when I get stalled, I'll reach into the toolbox and handle the simple tools that my father made his living with for all those years. Most times, I can find some inspiration and walk back over to whatever I'm working on and figure it out. I like to think his hand is guiding me in some way. He was a tough guy but had a heart of gold for his sons. I miss him.... n the morning, I'll look at building that 3 foot long puller, using some stuff have rolling around in the corner. I want to get bearings off and place the new seals, If it all works out, the axles can go back. There are a couple of other 'tools' that need to be made up to set the seals in the outer axle but making those will be fun and justify the plasma cutter sitting in the corner. Once day at a time....
Looking good! I love seeing all the pictures. I need one of those hydraulic carts that's nifty
Thanks D26, You're way ahead of me in that you are operating, not rebuilding. I really started this because I need the tractor for a demolition / rebuilding project and it needed some TLC. Its gone way beyond what I intended but as long as it runs and works when I'm done, it will be worth it... I will keep posting pictures that may be of value to anyone coming along this road after me. Each problem I encounter becomes a challenge and I am having a lot of fun with it all. Once I get the rear diff back in, the road to completion won't be all up hill as it has been until recently. A bit more paint and reassembly and it will begin to look more like a tractor again.
Painting Day A couple of weeks ago, I had a good warm day and decided to paint some more pieces. This time, it was the axle tubes, foot plates, linkages and some tubing. After its all reassembled, I can go back over and hit anything that I missed along with the nuts and bolts that didn't get done.
Thrust Washers When I discovered the fibre washer on the right side and what was left of the fibre washer on the left side, I decided to order replacements. After a discussion with Dale of Tractorstuff, we decided that I should get two of the whole range of 6 sizes and I could return what I didn't use. I also had a couple of shims included in case I needed them. The Thrust Washers range from ,089 to .119 in .005 increments. The shims are .010 After some figuring and checking the backlash of the old still complete fibre washer, I decided to use the .089 Thrust Washers and see what the backlash would look like. The range is .005 to .015 and tray as I would, I couldn't get either side any closer. This was with the new left side gear that Dale sent after I had ordered the washers and some other parts. With both side gears in hand, I had hoped to get this checked and back into the tractor, but I also found that the readings were uneven when rotating the side gear and rechecking. A closer inspection of the pinions found thatone was worn and if moved on the pinion shaft had quite a bit of play. The other two appear to be ok but I decided that rather than mess with worn pinions, I would replace all three gears and shafts. I suspect that wear is one of the reasons I couldn't get into the mid range of the backlash readings. I emailed Dale and shipped the new pinion gears, shafts and long roll pins early this week. I have lots of other things to do, so moved on with them. I post separately on that work. Here are some pictures of the thrust washer selection and new left side gear. I set up the diff on the bench and checked the backlash with a dial indicator on a mag base. My bench top is steel, so it works great for this kind of stuff. The one picture is of the bearing being pressed onto the new side gear. I had pulled it from the old gear for reuse. My assortment of bits in a box at the press lets me cover most sizes and odd shapes.
Jusk.....Impressive work.....I would have been way over my head in deep water if I tried to go as far as you are doing. My hats off to you as you keep banging full speed into whatever issues come your way. :notworthy
Rear Axle Seal Replacement Since I couldn't finish the rear diff like I had originally planned, I moved on to the rear axle outer and inner seal replacements. The inner seal is access from the inner end of the axle housing and is easy to do once the axles shaft is removed. I had previously pulled both axle housings off for cleaning and repaint. In order to replace the outer axle seal, the outer bearing has to be removed. Since I wanted to reuse these bearings, beating them off was not an option. They looked good and because they are slow rolling, I couldn't see spending money on new ones. The ones on it are original Timken and probably better quality than a lot of replacement stuff on the market today. I had asked Dale about method of getting the bearings off fro reuse. He told me that in the dealership, they had an I beam jig made up with a hydraulic jack to push the shaft out of the bearing, but these days they just knock off the old ones and replace them. Since I keep a pile of steel pieces in the corner, I decided to try and make up a jig similar to the one Dale described. Its pretty rough but did the job. I won't need it again but may just clean it up and put it in the corner in case I ever need it again. Otherwise, it may become part of another temporary tool in the future. Once the bearing was off, I removed the old outer seal and cleaned up the axle shaft. The new seal is put on first, then the bearing is pressed back on. The pictures show my version of the bearing puller, the inner axle seal and another locally sourced bearing 'driver' that I used to seat the bearing back on the shaft. I'll describe how the outer seal is installed in the next post along with pictures of another locally made tool.
Rear Axle Replacment and Outer Seal Installation Today's job was to get both rear axle housings back on the tractor, with axles, outer seal and bearing installed on the shaft and seat the outer seal. In the Service Manual, there is a picture and description of a seal installation tool that Case provided for this function. In another post on 68 Case's thread, Melben had described this tool and making one to set the seal in place. Thanks Melben! Since I had the 3/8 steel, some roll pins and the method to cut it, I decided to build one for this job. I call it the 'Jusk Bilt' CopyCase seal driver tool HaHa The pictures show the axle shaft in place but the seal is not pulled into place. Don't forget to tape up the splines to protect the inner seal when the axle is pushed into place. In order to get the outer seal properly installed, the tool is placed between the axle flange and the seal, the inner bearing is installed along with the bull gear, washer and nut. My bull gear will have to be removed when I reinstalled the refurbished differential. When the nut is tightened, the axle flange pulls the seal into place, with the tool providing even pressure on the seal. Once the seal is fully pressed into the end of the axle housing, the tool can be removed and the axle nut tightened to set the preload on the outer bearing. A rolling torque test can be done to check this simple adjustment.
Outer Axle Seal Here are the rest of the pictures showing the seal tool in place and the seal installed into the end of the axle housing.
I reinstalled both rear wheels so I can move the tractor outside to clean, epoxy prime and paint the torque tube and rear gear case. With some time left in my day, I installed the rebuilt generator and new fan belt. Starting to look a bit more crowded up front... I'm hoping to get the painting done soon so that the steering column and all the control linkage and piping can be reinstalled. One day at a time...
Jusk........Here is a pic of my axle end before I did much restoration last year. If you see the gap between the axle shaft and the end flange that the rim/tire mounts too, I had thought I had too much gap there, and that was the bearing sticking out a bit. But based on your pics, its just a part of the end flange. Let me know how much gap you end up with after yours is back together. I did not replace these seals as I thought they were not leaking. Now I do have a small leak on one side......rear end oil seeping down on freshly painted rear rims/tires......but that is life.
Jusk........Funny, you must have sent the pics the same time I was uploading and sending my pic......the pic of yours shows about the same gap as on mine......so, I guess mine is fine. In posts last year, I believe the consensus was that my bearing was sticking out too far.....but based on your work, I think all was OK. What were the two steel plates with the bungee cord holding them in place for? Was that the required gap that we are talking about?
68 Case, The two plates with the bungee push the seal into the end of the axle tube as there is no other way to install it. Its placed on the axle first, then the bearing and when the nut is tightened, the plates pull the sel into place. It should be seted all the way into the housing. One of mine was out about half way when I removed the axles. One the axle, the seal surface is a slightly smaller diameter than the last bit before the flange. On mine there was a bit of wear but I didn't worry about a speedi sleeve since its only grease behind it. I think over greasing could force the seal out of position and based on what I removed from the axle housing, lots of grease had been forced through the bearing over time. Once I get the rear diff in place, I will set the rolling torque on both axles which will preload the bearings. I still have a bit on end play but it won't take much to tighten it up. Yours look about right in the picture, as the seal is seated properly and that bit of axle you can see inside the flange is the part that stays outside of the seal. As long as the preload is set, so that its not too tight or loose, you will be good. As Melben mentioned in your post about this, these bearings are slow rollers, so the setup isn't as critical as others. Once I get to mine, I'll take another picture of the final gap and post it up. If the post office stays on track up here, I should have my pinions next week and can have a go at the setup again. I will be doing it a few times and once I have the process down, will take some pictures and post them along with the procedure used. I can ship you my axle bearing puller if you need to do your seals, it will probably cost more than the new bearings and seals... The plates work great to set the seals and were easy to make up. In these two pictures, you can see where one of my seals was sitting before I pulled the axle out any further. The greasy surface is where the seal runs. In the other picture, it shows where the bearing is seated and the seal is pull inward against it. The shiny part is outside of the seal when its set up correctly by tightening the nut on the other end to pull the bearings into place.
Sounds like they should have fitted a grease relief valve on that axle end to prevent pressure from pushing the seal out. Would be easy to "update" your tractor to take one. Just need to drill and tap a hole opposite the grease fitting. For anyone not familiar with them here's a link to a site that shows them. They are available in different pressure ratings but I would go for one of the lowest rates for this application: http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/tnpla/03244779?src=pla&cid=PLA-Google-PLA+-+Test&CS_003=7867724&CS_010=03244779&mkwid=txg6YEZy Or even easier would be to drill and tap the hole then install a 1/8 pipe plug. Just remove the plug while greasing to let out the pressure and pump till you see some fresh grease then put plug back in! Maybe even leave the plug out and take a lap or two around the barn to let any excess out then install.
Jusk......Good information. I think I would collapse seeing the freight cost to ship your press rig cross country to Va.........so, I have some great pics right here if I ever need to fabricate one similar to yours. I was also wondering if there was some way to relieve the pressure caused by pumping grease in around the rear bearing. I assumed that it would ooze inward and not force the bearing outward. Thats a great idea that Kshansen sent......the pressure relief, or just having the 1/8" pipe plug. If Kshansen doesnt apply for a patent, I just might beat him to it.
When I pulled my axles, there was a big handful of grease on the far side of the bearing. With that much being pumped in, there would be a risk of moving the seal out, or blowing it altogether. I think they had been over greased as it was all moly type grease. I can't remember ever doing them myself, but I must have? Mine are all together again with new grease fittings so I won't likely be drilling a plug hole now but may consider it for a future project. I will keep the amount of grease pumped in at a time to some reasonable amount and see how it goes. A remote grease tube or hose is in the cards once I put the cab back on and can figure out the best place for it. The hole in the axle housing is 1/8 NPT and hydraulic fittings will work. On the bearing puller, I had a few choices from the scrap pile to make it from but ended up with what I had lying beside the bandsaw and standing in the corner. Not pretty, but works well enough for a couple of bearings. Postage would be pretty high for so much scrap that you would be far ahead to build your own. Dale even thought it wasn't worth the effort to build one for one job but I priced those bearings locally and decided on reusing them. The plates to set the seals could also be done with better materials and workmanship, but for two seals it worked just fine. If I built another, I'd chuck it in the lathe and cut the hole with a hole saw, then split it in the band saw. That plate is 3/8 thick, which is what Melben spec'd.
Another day and a few more small projects done. I got the brakes completely dismantled, cleaned the outer housings ready for prime and paint when it warms up again. I used a pin punch to remove the rivets on the discs and replaced all the discs that were contaminated with oil from the leaky seals. The old ones hardly look worn. Its too bad there wasn't a reliable way to get the oil out of the lining material but since I was in there anyway, I decided to renew the discs and bands on both sides. Dale of Tractorstuff had sent me the discs and new bands as just the linings weren't available from his supplier any more. Along with the linings, I got a nifty punch to set the rivets and they look like factory. The whole job only took about an hour to do all 4 discs. Maybe the brakes will be a bit better now.... I have a bunch of small parts scrubbed clean, degreased and ready for paint once the weather settles. We have had much needed rain but since I'm painting outside, I need a few hours of dry and a bit warmer than its been. A few days ago, we got the sense that fall was coming with that specific smell in the air. On the mainland, it snowed in the high elevations of Whistler ski resort, so the change is coming soon. I was in town earlier in the week and picked up a gallon of epoxy primer and a gallon of yellow Imron to do the loader and eventually the backhoe. I still have a bit of the tractor to get painted and then can assemble all the small parts. If the forecast is correct, maybe Sunday will be a painting day... One day at a time...
Jusk......Yep, that was my mistakes when I was working on the brakes----the brake linings were still thick, and I thought I could just thoroughly clean all the grease/oil off them, sand them a bit, and put them back in. I did that, and the brakes are not grabbing like they should. So, once they get soaked in oil, it seems they cannot be revived. Kinda like a politician.....once they go off to Washington, they get all corrupted and evil and cannot be revived. Im thinking Trump is gonna be bringing a bunch of those electric heart jolter machines, and he will be doing his best to revive those idiots.
You can get the brakes clean enough to grab...then drag them and the remaining oil and grease will burn off. The secret is using enough brake cleaner, for a number of days. But they really do recommend new friction material. Every time a bring a vehicle back from the dead, new brake friction material is part of it. Howard
If the linings had been difficult or expensive to get, I might have chanced reusing them. They weren't worn at all but had traces of oil on/in them. A sonic cleaner or one of those fancy rotisserie hot water parts washer cabinets might work. I also thought about sticking them in the oven and putting the self cleaning cycle on. After looking at that, I decided I really did want dinner and using the oven was off the list... For the cost of these and new shoes, it just wasn't worth not changing them. If you do the discs, be sure to line up the holes for the springs. Don't ask how I know this... Lucky for me, I had extra rivets and had just started. Today I am cleaning all the remaining parts and have the tractor outside, scrubbed clean and ready to mask off the stuff I don't want to get any primer and paint on. If the weather continues to look decent, I'll paint the remaining Power Red (orange) and be ready to start the final reassembly. I am hoping to get the pinion gears and shafts next week, so the rear diff can go back and all the adjustments done. I'm away again next week, so the paint will have some time to cure before get back. 68 Case, You're already the expert on the brakes and thrust washers, so to change the linings would be a breeze. I have read and reread your posts about that stuff and learned a few tricks for there. The service manual covers a lot, but I think its written for someone who knows what they are doing....:beatsme My solution for politics was the same as for work. I spend most of my time on a small island, with a workshop and more projects than I'll ever get done. No TV or radio and I choose carefully what I read on the internet. That keeps the pressure down and life's good since there is little I personally can do about it anyway. The wine also has a positive effect...
I too have heard of burning the brakes/ oven, to remove the oil.. I used to do that w/ my bowling ball before a big tourney.. sweat the ball to remove the lane oil.. BETTER have a LARGE PAN underneath it for the drippings.. its amazing how much oil they can collect..
Jusk......You say Im already the expert on the brakes.......and maybe thats why my rig is called "Greased Lightning". Brakes are a good thing to have on these old tractors, although it seems to have been an option or luxury item for many of us. Good point to just live on an island and have some fine wine, and not even worry with the corrupt world politicians.
I can see that now.......a big roasting pan with your bowling bowl surrounded by Jusk's greasey brake linings. Maybe toss in some chopped garlic and Old Bay seasoning, and at least they will smell like food. Ha ha.
Rear Diff Setup and Brake Installation Since I last posted, I have got some painting completed and now the whole tractor part is done, along with some misc parts that I had removed for cleaning and paint. The paint takes a day or so to be tack free to the touch and another few days for a full cure. Once its cured, I have found that its hard as a rock. This time, I switched primer to all epoxy rather than the etching I had used on before. The epoxy is easy to use and I will be using it for the loader, cab and other parts that will eventually be yellow. So far, all the painting has been Case Power Red which is more orange. I decided to stay with that colour as it was the stock colour and mine had not be repainted since new in 1968. I had previously ordered a new left hand side gear from Dale at Tractorstuff and once I had it in hand, I tried to set up the backlash with the pinion gears. Even using the thinnest Thrust Washer, I couldn't get a consistent reading when I rotated the ring gear around. Closer inspection revealed that the pinion gears and shafts were worn and I decided to call Dale again and order three new pinion gears, shafts and roll pins. When I disassembled the gears, I found that the shafts were worn and I could wobble the gears on them. Two of the roll pins showed wear in the area where they passed through the pins, so they must have been moving. I looked at the ring gear and main shaft pinion and decided that although they were likely also worn, I would leave them and see if all could be adjusted to reasonable specs. I changed out the pinion gears and shafts in prep for reinstalling the rear diff and brakes. Today, I got down to work. In order to compensate for the new left side gear and pinions, I had to check the backlash again and selected the thinnest Thrust Washer available form the selection I had Dale send me. I managed to get within spec at .014 and am happy with that. After that, I got the rear diff back into the case and started to set up the rolling torque. I used the procedure in the manual, which I will post up later, along with a detailed description of what I did and how it worked (or not) for me. I had made a tool from an old brake disc, as shown in the manual and it made getting the reading pretty easy. In order to put the rear diff in, you need to have the bull gears removed. I had reinstalled the axles and used the bull gears and nuts to seat the seal and bearings, so the bull gears had to be removed again. I left the seals and O rings off the bearing carriers, so I could install and remove them without concern about damage while I was getting the setup correct. Since I had changed some of the parts, I wanted to check the rolling torque and installed both side gears and bearing carriers using shorter bolts and spacers instead of the brake housings. I found that with the new Thrust Washers and the left side gear, I could remove one of the shims on the left side. When I did this and reassembled it all and checked it with the dial indicator, I found that there was insufficient backlash between the ring gear and the main pinion. I had order a set of new shims from Dale, just in case and decided to install one of these on the left side to replace the thicker one that I had removed. After putting the new shim in place and putting it all back together, the rolling torque was still just under 7 lbs. I then set up the dial indicator on the ring gear again and got a consistant reading of .007, which is also within spec. With all the critical measurements as close as I think I could get, I pulled the bearing carriers one at a time and installed the seal and O ring before carefully replacing them. Once bothside were installed, I went to replace the bull gears and found that I had to pull the axles back in order to get the gears back on. I jacked up each side, one a a time and managed to get the axles out just enough to put the bull gears back on. They got retightened and I quickly checked the bearing preload by rolling the wheel to be sure there was no excessive play. By this time, I had installed and removed the bearing carriers 4 times, checked the backlash and preload several times and finally got it close enough to put it all back together. I'm hoping for the last time. I had received new brake linings in a previous order from Dale and in between painting, had redone the linings. This afternoon, I put the new brake bands together, lubed all the pivot points and reinstalled the band assembly in the brake housings. Once I had them done, with new dust boots and return springs, I put the drums on and installed the rest of the brake assembly on both sides. All bolts and nuts were torqued to 75 ft lbs and I called it a day. This process was a bit tedious and I can now assemble and disassemble the rear diff and bearing carriers in minutes. In between, I set up and checked each change with the dial indicator to be sure I was heading in the right direction. The shims were a bit of an issue for me at first, as some of the ones on the machine were rusty and damaged from my crude attempts at removing the bearing carrier early on. I had some new shims in the last order and used a couple of them to get the settings right. Tomorrow, I'll recheck my work and close up the top cover if all looks good. The weather looks to be better this coming week and I'll try to get the loader frame sanded, primed and painted while its still warm. If I get those frames and the fuel tank done, I can finish assembling the tractor part and get ready for the initial start up and adjustments. Here's a couple of pictures of recent progress.
nice work... Howard
Jusk.......Wow! I am amazed at your patience and ability to keep pulling it apart, putting it back together, measuring, pulling apart, back together, apart, together...........until you finally get it within specs. Amazing for sure. I wonder how many times you pulled it apart and put it back together in your sleep at night.......probably getting a few revelations while you were sleeping. I think I would have thrown in the towel and just slapped the lid on and went to something else. Would like to hear Melben's thoughts on all this.......what he would say about the shims and your efforts to get her back within specs. Hey.....I was wondering if you thought my idea of being able to drain the water from the hydraulic system was something you would consider doing. I put standard valves at the two drain plugs so I could just briefly open them up to let any water out of the system. Here is a pic of what I rigged up (I put one on each side, and used the brass top with rubber washer just in case the valve accidentally got snagged and opened or leaked).
Looks good, Jusk. Looks like you're on the home stretch now. :drinkup '68, I like your valve - not just for water removal but you could hook a short piece of hose for ease of draining when it's time to change it.
Thanks guys, I'm hoping that this gets done pretty soon as I need the tractor and later in the year have rental project in another city to deal with. That will take me away most of the time for a couple of months. 68 Case, I like the idea of being able to control the flow as you open the drain. The plug works but my experience wasn't good and the oil stains are still on the shed floor. I was going to look at my favorite hydraulic shop for a ball valve and then move the plug. Your valves may be exactly what I will end up doing. Grady's point about being able to attach a hose is a good one and much cleaner than a funnel or open pail. I spill too much and the cleanup is always a pain.:Banghead On the setup procedure, I read Melben's posts about the thrust washers and method of using the brakes to hold everything while doing the other side. His descriptions helped a lot. I have the service manual and can recite the procedure for pinion backlash, rolling torque and ring gear to pinion backlash in my sleep. I found that the rusty shims didn't help and had Dale send me a selection that made it easier to get a good reading. Once I figured out what moving the shims did to the readings, and did the math on how much to add or remove, it was pretty straight forward. In the end, I had moved shims and pulled it aprt 4 or 5 times before the last assembly. Practice, Practice, Practice. I still wonder what all new pinions, side gears, ring gear and mainshaft pinion would have done for the readings. Old and worn would be sloppier and that is what I found. WIth the original shim setup, there was almost .030 backlash at the ring gear to mainshaft pinion. Way too much and I hope that closing that up to specs doesn't bring on another issue. We'll see once I can use the machine but it will never run long distances or do more than my work so I hope it will be fine. If I do it again, I'll probably go all new and start over... Today, I want to get all the brake rigging reassembled and maybe put the steering column back on so that I can hook up all the linkages. Its supposed to warm up for a few days and if it looks decent, I will paint the fuel tank, loader frames and the backhoe support frames. These will be yellow, along with the rest of the stuff still sitting outside. In a few weeks, any painting will have to be done in a temporary booth over in my open shed as in the open won't be an option in this climate... One day at a time
Jusk sorry been a little busy so i havent been on here much.......and it is just as i thought i would see when i got to look your still tearing up the pavement and getting her done and it is looking super...... awesome work your doing on that island keep up the great work she will be pumping diesel smoke out that stack before you know it .........take care......
Oneman, Its becoming a long haul but I'm still making progress. I got a lot of small stuff put back on but also had a few setbacks. While I putting the right side shaft back on, I damaged one of two very small seals that sit inside the gear and mate with the shaft that extends out to the diff lock. I wasn't a happy guy but went upstairs and called Tractorstuff. A minute later, two new seals are in the mail I'll be more careful putting that right side gear back on this time. I had used electrical tape over the splines but still managed to bugger the lip on the inside seal. Nice to deal with good folks who know their stuff. In the last couple of days, I spent a bit of time getting the paint prep done and dragging the pieces around so I could set them up to paint. Yesterday, I got two coats of epoxy primer on one loader frame, the backhoe mounts and the front piece. I didn't have room to suspend the left loader frame and hope to get it done tomorrow, if the weather holds. Forecast is for rain in the coming week, so time is tight. After putting a couple of generous coats of grey epoxy primer on, I went to the yellow that I had selected off a sheet of colour chips. Mistake on my part. What I thought would be a good 'industrial yellow' turned out somewhat different than I had expected. Not only is it very bright yellow, but on top of the gray primer, it almost had a green tint to it. Several coats and it looks better but you need sunglasses to look at it, Funny because in the pot, it looks pretty good but not once I shot a coat on the parts. SInce I need to be sure the next overcoat will be consistent, I will paint the other loader frame with this and next week, head back to the paint store with a rather large piece of sheetmetal and the original yellow colour to get a better match. Oh well. its only $$$. The benefit of Imron is that I can directly overcoat without and prep other than a good hot water and soap wash. Today, the paint was still soft so I left it to cure for a few more days and went fishing... My buddy came out and picked me up at my island place and we had the morning out in the strait with little wind and current for a change. A few shakers up to the boat and released and then two very large Ling Cod decided to come aboard. Mmmm fish and chips... As one each was our limit, we tried trolling for salmon but after a couple of hours and a lot of water under the boat, called it a day. I was dropped off at my place around noon, cleaned my share of the catch and put about 15 meals of fresh cod into the freezer. I did a bit of cleanup in the shop and then because I had turned out at 5am, I heard the couch calling and had a snooze. Such is island living. Some days you get lots done, others not so much... One day at a time...
where did ya go jusk
Hey Oneman/Xpac, Good to hear from you! Not much progress to report but I'm not dead yet. A few things got in the way of progress on my project. Since I last posted, I had been trying to get some of the bigger pieces painted and weather didn't cooperate. I still have to replace the small seals on the diff lock shaft that I damaged and get the fuel tank repainted with the correct colour. I had ordered a new fuel sender from Dale but there were issues with what his supplier was providing and he now has found out they don't work with my gauge. I'm going to get him to send me the Case one and be done with it. In the mean time, I had an unexpected vacancy on a rental in another city and am doing 4 nights a week there on a refurbishment since early October. Yesterday, I finished the interior painting and now the flooring contractors can do their thing while I'm gone. Not what I had planned to do but that's where the cash flow comes from to support my Case projects. I'm done until mid January and hope to get a few hours on the tractor and have it closer to lighting up again soon. Snow here and a running machine would have been handy to clear out the driveway so the deer have some where to stand around until it melts in the next day or so. Hope things are OK for you and that eventually it will all settle out, right side up. I haven't heard from 68 Case either but he's always pretty busy on the home front. I will try to post up some more interesting stuff as this starts up again. I'm grateful for the advice and parts you sent me. Stay in touch.
Juskatla.....Good to hear your still kicking too, along with Xpac/1man. You said I was busy on the homefront too, well here is my 1927 Nash that I finally put on Ebay last week....auction ends tonight: http://www.ebay.com/itm/262748936825?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1558.l2648 If the link doesnt work, just go to ebay and type in 1927 Nash Special Six Cabriolet. Got her at a rediculously low price of $7500 Buy It Now.....losing my shirt on her, but after 7 years its time for the next guy to finish her up. You think it would fit on the little tug boat going over to your island? Just what you need over there......I-Ooooooga! Dwight
68 Case, That's pretty cool. I can almost see you rolling along on the backroads in Virginia, past fields and pastures with horses watching you go by. You have done an awful lot of work and it must have been satisfying to have gotten this far. But, life goes on and sometimes we have to hand these projects on forward for someone else. I'm sure you find an enthusiast that will appreciate what you have done and continue the great work. It would be a nice 'sunday' car here on the island, but this past week, it would need to have 6 wheel drive added. Its warmed up and snow is almost all gone now, but can't say it never snows here anymore. A few mild years and we forget the year it dumped 4 ft all at once.... All my little friends were waiting to greet me this morning when I opened the door. Bunch of freeloaders, but we love them all. I know about how much $ that goes into a project, never mind all the labour that we never recover. On my rental refurb, I'm wondering if I will ever recoup the $ spent but it adds value to the property and will help get a good tenant. Cars are the same but someone will fall in love with yours and take it home. It would be nice to see it roll in when its all done. If you are looking for another project, I'll email you a couple of my M37 army trucks to finish. One is really enough and 4 is more than one lifetime can handle. I'll be trying to get back to the tractor after some long neglected chores here and again after New Years when I'll be back to the little island again for some serious work.
Jusk.....Thanks for checking out my ole 27 Nash....yep, a ton of work involved, but I learned a ton about these old cars in the process. She is a kick to drive, but have only had her on our farm roads and thru the fields, pastures, horses and cows, but not on the real backroads yet. Yep, maybe time for the next guy to take the hand-off and finish her up properly. I have a ton of interest and "watchers" on ebay, and people from Germany, Czeck Rep., Canada, and many from the US......so, I might get a buyer tonight. I would love to have an old M37 to work on, but the cost to ship it is crazy high....I bought one truck from Washington, and the cost to ship it to Va was $1300.......thats alot of money that could go into the restoration work itself. Hope to see more pics and detailed descriptions of your upcoming work......you are creating quite an extensive "how to" documentary for the next guy who attempts this work in the future. Of course, its great to see other people reading our posts and getting some benefit on their projects.
Well, its time to restart this thread. Hard to understand where the year went since I got going on this. I have not done much for some months but getting back at it now. Don't take your health for granted, as things can change in a hurry and life's priorities with it. Once I can paint a few pieces, I should be able to get the tractor outside and started up for the first time. I got stalled by an early weather change and didn't get the fuel tank painted, so can't reinstall it yet. Yesterday, I managed a few hours in the shop and got the fuel return lines put back on the engine, reconnected the steering hoses, power steering pump lines and the tubes from the shuttle valve to the shuttle filter and rad cooler up front. New hoses for the oil cooler to filter and a new filter element in place. Today, I tackled those small seals on the diff shaft that ride inside the right side gear. I had damaged one on the first attempt and had Dale send me a couple of replacements months ago. In order to get proper access, I pulled the right rear wheel so I could see to work. I needed to make a seal driver from some tube stock and a sleeve to slide over the splines. These little seals damage easily, so a light touch is good. All went to well an I reinstalled the diff lock assembly and hooked up the service brakes. Once I figure out the parking brake, I'll adjust the brakes per the manual. With all new linings, and all new oil seals to keep them dry, they will be as good as they get. Which isn't that good but at least you can stop eventually.... Since there is snow outside, I'll work on the instrument panel and get it ready to paint with everything else. I can't paint in the shop, so need some warmer weather so it can be done outside. I'll get some updated pictures posted in the next few days. I'm still feeling my way around the new format on this Forum and have to figure out the differences still.
Jusk......I agree with you.....I preferred the old H.E. website layout......a pain to get used to something new, when the old worked just fine. Regarding those seals, I believe you said that you locked the brakes on one side while you did the seal on the other side?......that greatly helps to center the shaft and prevent damage to those delicate seals. Another thing I did, which is probably just a waste of time, was to pac thick grease on the inside of the axle all over the inside of these seals......I think I just reached from the inside and put a super thick layer of grease, thinking it would help slow-down the thinner gear oils from getting to the seal and trying to leak out. Your gonna love working on the instrument panel......lots of electrical wiring and surprises to make your mind go luney-tunes.....but your in good health now, so you can handle it.
Glad you are back at it even if working a little slow. Better to take your time and fix the little mistakes now that to have to live with them down the road. I retired back in April of 2015 and am just getting going on a little project I actually started a couple years before I retired. It just an engine for a 650 Yamaha that, when I started it, was going to go in the sidecar outfit I rode to work. A little this and a little of that and it got pushed to the back of the shop. As soon as I get the wrist pin keepers in I will put the head on it and then I have to decide what bike to put it in! I have a feeling that 580 will be one of the best in the world when you have it back together. Be sure to get a video of first start-up and first lap around the yard for us!
68 Case, The locking up the brake assembly came from Melben who posted that on your thread way back whenever. It was pointed out to me by one of you guys here and I did the procedure a couple of times just to be sure. I also used your trick of some grease and it made the installation of those two little diff lock seals pretty easy. I spun a piece of steel tube in the lathe to dimension the inside enough that I could put a wrapper over the splines. Originally, I had put these little ones into the side gear on the bench and ruined one of them when putting it together. Live and learn. This time, they went on with the brakes assembled and I think it was easier tp get it right. Kshansen, Thanks for the confidence but I should have been finished last summer.... If nothing else, I will be able to fix anything that comes up since I've had it all in my hand at some point. I worry a bit about some of the stuff that I've done but its to spec and will likely last my years before someone else has to tear it down. Funny, since I have been off the tools, I have hired a fellow to replaces some stairs and other jobs around my island place. The first thing he said when we were looking at the tractor was that he wanted to have first refusal on it when I decided to sell. He's very particular himself, so I take that as a big complement. Now if I could get the fuel tank painted and installed....
Nice to see you back at it.. I was wondering.. With all the boat trips back & forth and folks seeing what your doing.. have you gotten any "requests" to work on anyone elses machine?? That usually happens to me when I'm out fixing a pump problem in the field [service call] A neighbor will come by and say, oh, I have one that leaking or I have one that wont start.. I cant wait till she's up and running.. I think you'll find you have more "friends & neighbors" that you knew about, once you have a fully functioning backhoe.. lol You might have to get a sticker that reads, "NOT FOR HIRE".. Lol I have a friend that has a sticker on his truck that reads, " Yes this is my truck, NO I wont help you move".. Lol
Pumpguy, On this small island, we have a couple of other backhoes an excavator and several dump trucks. There is also a fellow who is a 'mechanic' and all of these guys feel they are entitled to all the work that others on the island need done. The only problem is actually getting any of them to do something, or to do what you wanted done. The phrase 'Island Time' is a good fit here. I have some close neighbours that have us run their vehicles once in awhile and I take care of most small maintenance for them. When you live a long ways away from your vacation place and only come a few times a year, you need someone to look in and to keep up with any issues. My wife does the 'walk about' in my neighbourhood and I look after the little stuff. As for my machine, I got it for my own use and that is well known so don't get too many asking. I deflect most to those that are hiring out their equipment. Since my shop is usually full, I no longer get friends asking to use the space for a repair or for me to weld something for them. I have a sign that I got somewhere years ago that says: Labour Rate $35 hr, You watch $50 hr, You help $75 hr. Most get the message and see the humor in it. I have a JD dozer that I will eventually get in for some work. We used it to pull logs off the beach to feed the woodstove but it hasn't run in some years. Maybe next year....
kshansen......Guess alot of us are into heavy equipment AND motorcycles. I have a few, and right now am stumped on a simple little 96 Honda XR100R that I am rebuilding. The lower timing chain sprockett is merely pressed on, and now it is off a few degrees....and I was wondering if that is still "OK" to run. If I advance the chain one tooth, it is a few degrees too far one way, and vice versa if I move the chain the other way. OK if I send you a Private Message about this?
Like they say a friend will help you move, but it takes a real good friend to help you move a body!
I spent a few hours in the shop today and managed to get the new battery box dry fitted and now ready to remove, clean and paint. I plan to install a battery switch with new Ancor 2/0 tinned battery cables and now can figure out the best place to mount that in a convenient location. The new battery box is a bit taller than the original to better accommodate the large industrial battery that I use in place of the two original six volt setup. This is my first attempt at posting pictures with the new forum format so we'll see how it turns out.
You do some nice work! Do you have a break for that sheet metal work? I only wish my welding looked that nice.
Khansen, I wish I had a shear and brake to do the bends in this heavy a gauge material. I have a small cheap one for 16ga but for the battery box, I made a cardstock template of what I wanted and had the local fab shop knock it out for me. I did weld in the side panel and am happy with the results. I'm no welder, so the results can vary a lot. I got lucky on this. Once it warms outside a bit, I'll clean all the pieces and give them a couple of coats of epoxy primer, followed by the orange Imron topcoat. I still have to fit the small tool box at the end of the battery box and make a bracket to hold that end to one of the brake cover bolts. I may give the inside of the box a coat of bed liner to slow down the deterioration from battery acid fumes, rust or whatever destroyed the bottom of the original box. I'm trying to stay with the original shapes as I know that the loader frame will fit on without any interference. The fasteners you can see and quite a few more that you can't will get a touch up of primer and the orange once I'm happy with everything and ready to put the loader frame back on. I'm going to take a bit of time and disassemble the instrument panel and figure out what I need for wire to build all new harnesses. The manual has a wiring diagram but there have been lots of modifications on mine that I will remove or improve to get all the functionality without the fire hazard. Lots of fun to keep me busy. One day at a time....
We fixed up the non functioning dash panel in our old 580 Super D many years ago. The instrument panel has ceased working when we purchased the machine & like yours had many repairs & modifications done to it over the years, so we just cut out an aluminum plate & installed the bare necessities in it & it worked fine after that. Seems to me a new instrument panel was maybe $1500 at that time, so we opted for this option. We have since sold the machine.
Metalman, I'd be doing a new dash panel if the old 580CK has a similar section, but its contoured to the rear of the fuel tank like the older farm tractors were made. Late this afternoon, I pulled all the gauges on it and separated the wiring harness at the stock plugs. There are a few extra holes that I will patch weld, a few dents to straighten and then some sanding and prep for primer and paint. The harness is simple enough once its separated but all the wires are brittle and a fire waiting to happen. I like circuit protection, so will be adding some fuses when I put it back together.Your panel has everything that is needed and room for more if you were a gauge junky. Mine will have the stock tach, fuel, shuttle clutch pressure and ammeter. I'd like an oil pressure gauge and a coolant temperature gauge instead of idiot lights. As there isn't much room left for these, they would need to be mounted on a small add on panel below the stock one.
Nice CLEAN look metalman.. Don't forget to take pics, Juskatla.. Theres just something about a before & after pic of gauges & wireing..?? I don't know what it is, but I like it.. I guess it just ties it ALL TOGATHER?? Like a new haircut..
Forgot to mention.............your battery box refurbishment & painting work look pristine...........keep up the good work!!
Thanks for the complements, I just hope that it all works and runs well after all the time and trouble. Here are a couple of 'before' pictures for pumpguy. I didn't bother with a shot of the long harness wires, as they are a sorry brittle mess. One of the things I didn't notice was that I don't have temperature gauge as shown in both my Service Manual and my Parts Book. I have a Case ammeter installed and it look like its original. The wiring diagrams don't show that and now I'm wondering where its supposed to be wired. If anyone has a diagram showing an ammeter for these old tractors, I'd appreciate it if you could post it here. I'll trace the wires back to the regulator and see how it was dome on this one but there are a few mods that don't make sense and I'd rather be sure its correct. There were no fuses in the existing harness, the fuse holder was there but empty. I'll either put anew one in or go to breakers separated into a few circuits. It will be some time before this goes back together, but I'll post the 'after' pictures then.
Jusk......Great work! I think I see Dale's signature on that nice orange battery box lid. The one I got from him was flawless and Case Orange, and I had to paint it Case Yellow to match my rig. I still want to make a small tool box to go under the small lid in the back......or, it might be about the right size to slide in one ice cold brew. Were you gonna configure a small box under it?
Jusk.....I was going to post a couple pics, but this new format has me totally stumped. Why didnt they leave a good thing alone? Can you give me a quick tip on inserting pics from my computer........it keeps asking for a "Url site".
68 Case, I used the 'Upload a File' tab at the lower right of this frame. From there, I selected the file from the location where I keep all the tractor pics. Once uploaded, you can select either full size or thumbnail. It was easier than I though it would be. I think there is also an edit option on here somewhere in case you want to correct or add something. The other tab 'Options' gives you a slightly different view and has a tab 'Preview' which I like to use so that I know exactly what is being posted. Just mess around with it and you'll get the hang of it quickly. The battery box cover is the original one, just tarted up with a coat of epoxy primer and Imron that I had matched to be close to the Case orange. I have the small tool box somewhere and need to do a minor repair on its bottom due to some rust at one end. It would be easy for you to make one up. They are held in place by one of the bolts for the brake assembly. I have found that it filled with dirt but was a handy spot for an adjustable wrench and a can of ether.
That is so cool. I have one like yours without the cab. I'm looking for an operator's manual. I'm having issues with my starter motor and battery. I keep blowing up my starter and shorting my battery. Of course there are other issues like hydraulic leaks and the previous owner did some "creative" wiring...Eeeek! But I love my little Construction King diesel.
This is a link to your 580CK Service Manual. You can download and save it to your computer. -------> http://files.minnpar.com/partbooks/BACKHOE MANUALS/CNH (CASE) Service Manuals/CASE 580CK MODEL C SERVICE MANUAL/Case 580CK Series C Service Manual.pdf
Tinkerer, That's a good link but its for the 580 'C' and Tee is looking for the plain old 580 like mine. I've been trying to post copies of pages out of my 580 manual but am getting errors because of the file size. Not sure how to reduce them, but I'll figure it out. I owe a few other posters copies of other pages as well, so will try again tonight.
This is a shout out to 1968 Case 580CK and Oneman. Hope you guys are doing fine. Been some time since I was able to work on my 580CK but its finally getting there again. I've had too many months down sick and with treatment, am now feeling better, eating and feeling like doing stuff again. Don't take your good health for granted. I have a bunch of pictures sitting on the camera and will add them when I get time, for the entertainment of those who were following this thread over the past year or so.
Jusk.......Hey friend! Great to hear from you again for sure! Sorry to hear about being sick, but its great to hear you are recovering, getting stronger, and ready to throw some more wrenches at your big yeller and orange rig. I look forward to more of your posts soon......and more great pics. I too need to pull the tarps off my 580 and do some wrenching and repairs.......sometimes life pulls you in so many other directions.
Hey jusk and 68 how's things still finishing up with things for the big D but wanted to let you know I got ole Marie out of the deal and she's starting to come back in action I'll post some pics sorry I haven't kept up just a lot of crazy the past year but getting better
- glad to hear things are looking up for you. What is ailing Marie these days?
Good to hear from you, Oneman. Its a long road but you will come out just fine. I don't have much to post up on my project, other than some odd pictures of painting the loader frames and other yellow bits when I find them on the camera. Not much going to be going this week, as I'm in chemo again but at least things are looking up on that front. We'll watch for your posts. The old ones were pretty entertaining and set the standard for fun on here.
Hey friend......yep, its been too long since we were talking and sending each other 580CK parts and surprises in the mail. Life seems to spin crazy for all of us at certain times, and its been pretty hectic for me too. Got a huge court case coming up that is consuming much of my time.......but when people try to screw you over, your problably like me and stand up for the fight. Hopefully I wlll be like Rocky Marciano and land them a few powerful upper cuts that knock their lights out. Glad you got thru your Big D, and can now walk out of the abysis and to brighter pastures. Jusk......sorry to hear about you dealing with a crisis also, but great to know things are looking up for you. Great to hear from all the good people on this site.....hopefully life slows down and gets brighter for all of us.
68 good hearing out of you I'm finally bouncing back a little Marie just got herself a new spread to stretch out on it's been a hell of a year for sure thought at one point Marie would just be a memory but hopefully her spell is starting to take effect where it should be...how's ole greased lightning serving you these days sorry to hear about the court thing if I never see another courtroom it's fine with me money hungry fools anyways... talk to you soon....
Oneman........Good that Marie Lavaoue stuck by your side thru this and you both have a new spread to roost at. Yea, hopefully she will cast those spells on those who have been putting stumbling blocks in your path......and tell her cast a few spells my way on the evil ones I am facing. Greased Lightning has been in the "mellow-yellow" phase these past 6 months or so....just sleeping away under the tarps, except when I drive my spurs into her and let her run and move the fluids around every couple months. See ya.
I'm a little behind in my pictures but here are a few of the new paint that I finally got around to doing.
I decided to try a hood instead of the full face mask and like the hood. My supplied air system is a big improvement over the 3M full mask and organic filters.
A bit off topic but I have posted some pictures previously of our little island place and the adventures of getting stuff back and forth. I still have a few smaller pieces to paint but out here on the island, there have been some other pressing projects that need to get done. We are having a replacement cottage built and needed some fill inside the foundation to bring the floor level up for concrete. Because of the difficulty in barging gravel over, we decided to try geofoam and got a load of it last week. It will go under the floor once the foundation walls are done and a heated slab will go on top. The other day, my builder finally managed to have all the stars line up and they got the concrete for the foundation walls placed. 28 yard, 3 trucks and a pumper. The pumper and the first concrete truck were loaded at 0630, arrived at 8am and another truck was brought over at 10am, then both empties went back together. A few hours later another concrete truck arrived and by 3pm, both that truck and the pump were washed out and getting loaded on the barge. Another hour and a half back to town and we were done.
The first picture is the tug and barge with the first load over. The second picture is the last truck and the pump finishing the job. The pump had to squeeze between a couple of trees because it was a smaller unit than when they did the footings. There wasn't room on the barge for a bigger pump and a concrete truck so they had to make do. Back to tractor stuff....
Jusk you've got a lot going on there on the island I bet its gonna be great when you get it done you've definitely got challenges most of us don't have with the barges on the island that's cool seeing the pics thanks for posting them... It's been a while since we talked about it but have you put a name to your tractor yet just curious she must be worthy of that after all that work....
Glad you were able to get the concrete to you project. I'm almost embarrassed to say I could almost toss a rock from my house to hit one ready-mix outfit and there is another one in the other direction less than five miles away and not so much as a weight limited bridge between me and either of them! Keep up the good work and posting!
Jusk, Nice progress. A couple questions - What is supplying the air to the supplied air hood and what are those - vertical stiffeners? rebar? - on the outside of your forms?
onemank6 - No name yet but as it gets closer to start up and final assembly, I'll have to pick something. Last year when all went to a full stop, I had more than a few choice names but that's in the past now. I'm just happy to be moving on this again, even if a bit slower than I wanted. Some months left on the treatments but Wednesday's consultation was very positive. khansen - As much as I like the adventure its a bit trying at times to get stuff done over here but when its done, it will be great. The actual batch plant is only a few miles from here as the crow flies but a couple of hours minimum via the trains, planes and automobiles route. Tuesday will be an expensive day but at least its done. Grady - The hood and hose come from Axis and I have a turbine made by Hobbyair that is their upscaled #2 model with larger air volume. I found I don't need it and if time wasn't an issue, I would have built my own. See YouTube for one disassembled. Its essentially a vacuum motor with a speed control to adjust air flow. I would use a built in vacuum system motor, a HEPA intake filter and a home built speed control. Hoses use garden hose fittings but I think they a food grade, so no funny Chinese rubber or plastic smells. They are cheap enough to buy. I have quick connects and just set up the supply turbine speed before closing up and heading outdoors to paint. Because we are using the upstairs rooms in the shop as temporary living space while the build is going on, I won't paint inside. Here is good resource for this system and other stuff - http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=ABS&Category_Code=HP I got my stuff from Aircraft Spruce that has a Canadian outlet in Ontario - http://www.aircraftspruce.ca/categories/building_materials/bm/menus/to/paint.html The foundation is a combination of 8" Logix ICF and conventional formed walls. The bracing you see on the outside of the ICF forms is 2x4 used to support the walkway needed for the concrete placing and ensuring the walls are vertical. It will remain until the builder gets the floor system in place and then they will take it down. We'll peel and stick the outside of the ICFs and then put dimple mat up before backfilling. Perimeter drains and drain rock come later. For the reinforcing, we put 5/8 bar into the footings, and added 4' rebar vertically in to the footing on 16" centres. As the ICF forms were set up, each row has another horizontal 5/8 bar and full height vertical pieces were placed on 16" centres. All together, we put 2200' of rebar into the footings and foundation walls. This was all engineered as part of the design. If I was to consider having this done again, I would do all the foundation and lower floor walls in ICF but we saved some concrete in the footings by using conventional forms for the deeper part. The upper section with the ICFs sits on solid rock which we blasted and hauled away. I have contracted a builder for most of this and will not be doing much myself as originally planned. I'll focus on the tractor. Thanks for the interest. I'm hoping to get some small parts ready for another batch of painting so we can start the long anticipated assembly. The cab panels are still at my home after sandblasting and epoxy primer and will get transported back here when I bring another load in my pickup. Once day at a time....
Jusk, I saw the vertical 2x4's but it looks like something like rebar between the 2x's on the outside of the forms. It's hard to tell from here - Looks good though. That painting looks good, too - like factory. I recently painted some staging with some 2 part epoxy and that is some tough stuff. I put it on good and thick and it took about a week to dry but it's tougher than I thought it would be.
Grady, If you are looking at the plywood forms, those bars on the outside are 'whalers' or whatever local name used. The plywood has holes drilled through and a steel tie strap is inserted through the form. The strap has a slot through both ends and the steel 'whaler' slides into the slot to hold the form at whatever thickness the straps are. In this case, its all 8". When the concrete is placed, the forms spread to the full 8" against the straps and bars. When its stripped, the bars are removed, and the ends of the straps are cut off. The other method used involves round ties and a wedge on each outside end to hold the form width. Later today, I'll get a couple of pictures of the setup. Once you see it up close, you will probably recognize both systems as they are very common. ICFs have becoming the norm here as they provide easy set up and insulation in place. The added costs are offset by not having to use materials to form that don't always have a use in the build later. We'll use as much of the 2x4 as possible for shorts and blocking and the 5/8 fir plywood will be used as temporary floor on the decks and full sheets may get cleaned and find their way as roof sheeting if we are short any. The invoices are in for last Tuesdays concrete placing and all in, barging, concrete and the pump it went to $15k in a 12 hour day. This was over budget but the access changed in July and made the barge runs much longer. Glad its done, now the builder can get back to work while the weather is reasonable. On the tractor project, today I have some help to move the large pieces of the loader frame into the shop. They are both painted and ready to mount as soon as get a few other small things painted on the tractor itself. Easier to touch up the orange before the yellow loader stuff goes back on. Pictures to follow.
Those must be West Coast Whalers. I've never seen that kind before. I have used the wedge type with round and rectangle ties. The only thing I don't like about the ICFs is the insulation on the inside of the building deprives you of the benefit of so much thermal mass. I'd rather have that extra insulation on the outside but it probably gets much colder here. Some ICFs do allow for removable plywood on one side. Also, the web ties that you use for screwing the exterior sheathing to seem less than adequate to the task. If you're only using them for the foundation, that is less of an issue. I was thinking of building wall forms using 2x6 on the outside and leaving them in place after the pour and then spraying foam insulation and having good nailing for sheathing, siding, etc. The 2x4 inside ones could be removed or left for interior finishing, wires, plumbing, etc. I really like those styrofoam floor forms that integrate joists into the floor slab. I was thinking of using them for the roof as well.
Grady, I misspelled the term 'waler' and they are very common for form work and most often with reusable rented forms. As we didn't want to pay to haul anything back, we just used 4x8 fir plywood. The attached pictures are of the waler bar and quick ties that we used for most of the work. They can be used vertically or horizontal, depending on the forms you have available. The other is the old snap tie and wedge that went in on a column footing that went in to support some 8x8 timber frame posts. ICF has become a lot more common here but is still largely just foundations. Some years ago, we had a 3 story commercial infill building built that used both ICF walls and the floor ICF beams. In the end, once the siding was one, you couldn't tell it wasn't framed like the older ones on each side. With many different ICF manufacturers these days, you can pick various thicknesses of inside and outside forms. What is available locally will help make that decision. For our use, the major local suppler carries Logix, so that's what we did. The engineer decided the rebar schedule and core thickness. In a different setting, I wouldn't hesitate to use ICFs for the walls. Over here on the little island, the logistics for concrete make that prohibitively expensive. The web ties on the system we are using are very strong and I have no concern if the correct fastener and schedule are used. Different manufacturers may vary but I do think most have proven out if they are still in the market. The last picture is one of the two loader side frames waiting to be moved inside until we are ready to put them back on the tractor. I still have a few smaller parts to do and the top side of the hood if the weather will cooperate in the next two days. My cheapo HVLP Harbour Freight gun is doing pretty good for the little it cost. On the next cross border raid, I'll get another one. View attachment 173583 View attachment 173583
Thanks for the close up of those form ties. I've only ever used the wedge type on 2x forms around here. It's always nice having a thousand things going on at once, huh? Looks like you've got a handle on things though. Keep the pics coming.
Grady, they are 'Quick Strip' ties according to the box. Primarily used on reuseable forms that a builder or foundation contractor would rent. The thin ties allow them to go between sheets for easy setup and teardown. For us, it wasn't worth the transportation expense to rent forms, so we just used good B.C. fir plywood which will end up in the build somewhere. Its cold and windy today, so won't be doing any touch up painting on the tractor. When the crew finishes stripping the forms today, we'll run them back to town and head home for a week of appointments. Once I'm back here, I hope to get the big loader frame parts reassembled and get closer to start up.
Do you guys know how I can get to the front transmission pump to replace the seal?
Welcome to HEF @smart45 May I suggest you start a new thread in the tlb section. State the make & model of your machine & be more specific as to where the oil is coming from. Do you have a service manual? There's a 99% chance you will need to split the tractor if it is a 580ck of 60's 70's vintage.
I’ve split the tractor already the leak was coming out of the bottom of the starter was trying to do some research on the problem and people were say it was the front pump seal I’m trying to pull the torque converter out to get to it not really sure how it comes out any suggestions will be much appreciated
Welcome to HEF, smart45, x2 on what alrman posted. Start a new thread with the make and model of your tractor. Some models of 580's have a wet bellhousing. That means it is normal for the bellhousing to have oil in it.