I bought this 410 around last September. In great shape with 2,500 hrs on a rebuild. Hoe started with ease and ran great last year. Even when it was down to 45 degrees it would start not plugged in. Now, after a pretty cold winter, it is having problems. I have kept it plugged in and used it many times each week over the winter around my shop, but even with temps. reaching 55 degrees several times, If it wasn't plugged in it wouldn't start. Even at that 55 degrees and plugged in, I more often than not had to shoot some starting fluid. Checked the battery, it was low on all cells, so re filled with distilled water. Didn't seem to make any difference. Once it has been started and ran, it will start at any point throughout the day with no problem. Thought maybe the fuel, but I have put additives in and no difference, even gone through 3 tanks over the winter. Going to try a new fuel filter tomorrow. Is it possibly being under amped and not turning over fast enough? Any suggestions?
Yes its possible your battery isn't spinning your engine fast enough when cold.Have you charged it or tested it or your charging system?A good engine will start at those temps. so if its cranking fast enough you might want to run a compression check.
I haven't checked the amps, slacking on my part, that just accured to me when I posted this thread that it could be under amping even though the volts were fine. I did check the volts, but also haven't checked that the alternator is working correctly. I will check those today and re post. hopefully it is one of those and not bad compression. I tried charging it, but the charger always showed completely charged and shut off. I just found a video on you tube about load testing a battery, I suppose that is a good way to check also. Video @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QiKyjWWiRo if anyone needs it also.
You can also use a hydrometer to test the specific gravity of the acid,I also like to load test after charging,if battery tests ok be sure to test the cables and do a voltage drop test. Then look at the starter if all other tests were ok.
I think there is a solenoid valve on the pressure side of the 410 hyd pump to bypass hyd oil until the engine starts. (there definitely was one on the 310 and I believe they were similar). If this is not working then it would definitely be hard to crank the engine fast enough.
I didn't get a chance to do anything yesterday except replace the fuel filter, which was horrible with dirt caking the fuel bowl. Shoulda checked when I bought it. There is a pressure relief solenoid valve also, or at least a clutch disconnect, I read in the owners manual about lifting the clutch stop when cold weather to allow for easier cranking. I unfortunately will have to wait for a bad weather day to get anything more tested on here, spring is my busy season and even hiring 3 guys last week I can't stay caught up. I appriciate the input though.
Here's a little update, I went to start it today, started cranking over fast then quickly slowed to almost a stop,and my worker spotted the starter pouring smoke. Is the starter the culprit here? It was smoking off of the thick copper piece going into the starter from the solenoid, looking like the smoke was coming from inside the starter. Batteries bad is still a possibility I suppose, haven't had a chance to check them.
we have a 310 that will turn over quickly until the pump starts to pressurize then the starter doesn't have enough power to turn both the engine and 2,500 psi hydraulic pump. the starter would start to get hot and burn solenoid terminals. we now turn the destroke valve on the top of the pump in and it starts fine, then turn it out and reengage pump. JD has an electric destroke kit available which works while starting. saw one on a 410 i recently worked on for a customer.
I will have to check into that destroke kit, hate to spend extra money but a guy has to have his equipment working.
I once owned a 1981 JD 410. The starter brush wires were bad and causing similar starting issues. With weak brush wires you can get a starter that will crank up good until the wires heat up and then they become resistors when hot and of corse cause smoke. You can pull the back cover off the starter motor and check the brushes and wire connectors. Before doing that you can get a local car mechanic to do a starter draw test while your cranking the motor. That should be quite inexpensive and can tell you if you have starter issues before taking anything apart. The starter should never smoke if its in good condition, even if the motor turns over had due to the hydraulic pump or anything else.
I've got pretty much the same - a 1974 JD410, that I picked up about 2 years ago. I had similar issues and after checking the batteries, cables and starter, and that left the de-stroke valve. Mine would start OK some of the time, but would need to be jumped most of the time - then it would fire off quickly. Even a start after it was up to temp would not be a sure thing - if it stalled then it was either jump it, or wait 5 minutes for the hydraulic pressure to bleed down and it would start on it's own, (barely and maybe or would "load up" or feel like battery would fade quickly and not start). Mine had a fairly new hydraulic pump put on but the previous owner/mechanic (?) just snipped off the wires to the destroke valve on the pump. One can either buy the manual kit for about $20 or the electric solenoid for about $230, I went with the electric one. Now it starts up quickly with no ether at temps down to about 20F or so. Flipping that lever on the clutch helps when the temps are cold too. Definitely check to see your de stroke valve is working!!
I noticed there is a wire coming off of the hydraulic pump that seems to have been snipped, perhaps I can find the other end of it and it will be the de-stroker. But, as for the most recent problem I checked the brushes as mentioned and they looked horrible, the whole thing was black inside with what appeared to be oil and dirt. So, I was going to pull it and clean it when it appeared the nut holding the posotive cable on was loose, I went to tighten it and the plastic end of the solenoid split off.... so I got a starter and am going to install today, as well as check that de stroker wire. I am thinking that de stroker wire will fix a lot of the problem too.
It sounds like you guys may all have the wrong size battries in your machines. By the book ( I just looked it up ) you should have 2 ,950 cold cranking amp battries. If the battries are to small or the starter is drawing to much amperage, There wont be enough left to keep the fuel shut off selanoid open. Also check the smoke when it does start, white, then clear or black, you have an injector leaking off, Black or clear with a slight miss then the miss goes away, then your fuel return system has a leak and is letting the fuel system drain out and you are killing your battries tring to reprime your fuel system and injectors. My guess would be the squair cut O rings that seal the return lines at the injectors
If you can not find the other end of that wire (I couldn't) just splice into it and attach it to a post on your starter solenoid that is only energized when the starter button/switch is pressed. I too had my starter apart to check its' condition when trying to figure this out, though dusty dirty it was ok inside. I did manage to smash the solenoid in transport so I found a new one of those at NAPA for about $25 I think. I can't re-iterate it enough, until that de-stroke circuit is working properly your backhoe will not start reliably -hot or cold- and it overtaxes the entire starter system making those components fail prematurely. (I forgot to put it in my first post, but THANKS to the HEF members, they are the ones who helped me figure this out when I had the issues)
Good points all, but when I was going through my troubleshooting I too was suspect of the batteries (new cables - clean attach points etc, just about bought a new starter, did buy a new solenoid because of damage). The 2 big 6 volt batteries were checked and turned up fine, not convinced my buddy had another pair in another machine that were working fine in that so I temporarily swapped them. No start. I then swapped out to a single (physically big although about 2/3 the size of the pair of stock 6v ones) 740 CCA 12v battery and it seemed to have the same amount of "uumfh" at the pair, but it still wouldn't start right. I fixed the de-stroker and now the machine starts fine at 20F (maybe colder, haven't tried) with no ether, no plug in with the smaller single 740cca battery. I've gotta swap the pair of 6v ones back in and get my car battery back, but it helps prove the point of how important the de-stroker be operational on this particular machine.
Also good points, and yes the de- stroker valve is important also. The point that I was makeing is that there are supposed to be 2 950 CCA battries, not 1 . These machines will start at 20 below with this battrey configuration and the quick start set-up that came stock on most of these machines. The other point I was trying to make is that there appears to be a fuel problum that is common with the JD engines that happens around the 2000 - 2500 hour mark . Just saying that the battrie/starter problum might be caused by another failure that can be fixed with some 25 cent O rings
Old55pete, Thanks for the good info, and for what it is worth I did have what turned out to be 2 healthy OEM spec batteries in place on mine. They would crank the engine over rapidly initially but within a few seconds would wind down and act dead, this was masked by the hydraulic pump actually loading up and bogging down the starting system, which I'm sure also takes necessary power away from the fuel shutoff solenoid (allowing it to close again) compounding the starting problem. (at least that is what I have surmised after fixing it). Good info on the O rings, I never got to the point of checking those as the destroker fixed my issues. If I start having starting problems again, I'll definitely keep them in mind.
Sorry,I dident finish that, I got interupted. To test my thoughts on the second problum, push the primer handle on the fuel transfure pump on the right side of the engine 15 to 20 times then try to start it. If it starts than you know that there is a fuel problum that also needs to be addressed.
Olde55pete, I'm glad you mentioned about the smoke color, I was going to ask about that. It just pumps white the whole time it is trying, then goes black and back to clear. the hoe did have a leak at the injector pump when I got it, but tightening some fittings seemed to fix it, but reading your post makes me think possibly not completely. I am still leaning towards the de stroker. After installing the new starter the hoe turns over tons better but as mentioned above, after some good revs gets drawn down. I noticed the de stroker wire was wired on the wrong side of the starter, but after tracing the wire to the cut end of it, I can't find where it would go on the pump. I looked in the maintenance/ repair cd I have and it shows it on the driver side, if you will, and I looked and can't find a place to wire it anywhere. As for the batteries, I will check the cold crank amps, but even with my cummins hooked up to it, it turned over all the same, with a little drag down after a few revs, and still no start.
Look on the top left of the pump( drivers side if you will ) there should be a selnoide there ( electrical ) or a T handle if it is a manual de stroker valve. From the sound of it you may have some compression issues also . Pull the injectors one at a time and see if the end is wet. the wet ones are the leakers
Maybe this picture will help. Mine is missing on my JD 410 also, but I don't have any starting problems. I wonder why they were missing? Maybe the solenoid went out and the previous owners didn't want to spend the money to replace them?
I checked on the solenoid online and this what I found. Solenoid Kit: Part Number AT73624 Part Price: $244.63 It should get you everything you need. BTW, the hot wire to the solenoid comes off the starter.