Now that the engine is running decently the beast has got have brakes and some of the leaks fixed. Looks like the brake linnings & having them rivited on will cost about $120. The local shop says that the dealership wants about $20 per side for the shaft seals. I'm going to try to find them locally. I'll let you know. As the things apart I thought I'd try to stop a leak or 10. I think the hydraulic pump leaks at the shaft seal. Don't think there's any mystery getting the pump off but then I'm a little apprehensive. Am I correct that the front of the pump has to come off? I call the end that faces the engine the front of the pump because the part you see behind the grill, if I had one, is just the housing. Is there anything to taking the pump apart that far, just to put in a new shaft seal? Looks to me like a couple of gaskets to remember how they go and knock out the old & in with the new seal. Am I correct in these assumptions or can I get into major trouble here? Any advise would be greatly appreciated. As always, Thanks, Packratc
Keep it simple packratc - If it is a Cessna pump as per pic - you should be able to pick the shaft seal out & replace it only. If the rest of the pump is disturbed all seals should be replaced & that may require some instructions ....... & we all know how well you follow instructions...
Packratc, Something to consider: New aftermarket bands, complete... $47. http://www.ebay.com/itm/249018A3-Set-of-2-New-Case-Brake-Bands-430-480-530-580B-580C-Brake-Band-Assembly-/230761697051?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35ba780f1b Whole aftermarket set of brakes, bands and drums, $222. (Thats what I did) http://www.ebay.com/itm/249022A3-Case-Brake-Assembly-430-470-480-480C-480D-530-570-580-580B-580C-580D-/230683559648?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item35b5cfc6e0 BTW: I about spit my coffee across the room reading alman's post this morning!!! :drinkup Dave
When you repair the brakes, the two halves that counterrotate with the large steel balls inbetween need special attention. THe travel ways on each half need to be properly cleaned so there are no ridges to preventthe balls from rolling. Also the steel balls need to be completely smooth so they roll easily. Most people replace the bands and facings but give little attention to the inside where the steel balls are. If the balls don;t roll smothely, the two halves will not expand and apply the proper pressure to the facings. THe band is to forse the two halves to conter rotate with respect to each other and thereby expand. ALso, the two spring in each side must be replaced as most times they are rusted out. Failing to have them wil cause premature wear.....Also, the dust cover over the actuating rods need to be in good shape to keep debris out of the system. Also check the springs on the band actuators... I have repaired a lot of these brakes and these are the most popular problems and fixes. Don't take both sides off at the same time. Do one side at a time or you can screw up the preload on the pinion. Some have the differential lock which takes more work....
Thanks alman & dwloop, I'm reading alman's statement as saying I don't have to take anything apart. Just take it off and replace from the outside. I think I can do that. Not sure, but will let you know. Dwloop, coffee & sugar have gone up drastically in price over the past few years. You should try to conserve more. Was it his comment about my not following instructions that got you? I deserve that shot & therefore take it in stride. I do want to make a comment here. You know, after I fessed up that I had not checked the deck height on my sleeves, I took off the head again, remade the front gasket & did the measuring. My helper, Chico, couldn't believe it. I really couldn't either. But, I did it. I'm and old guy who generally likes to go my own way and sometimes do just to spite somebody else. I usually loose those situations. But, it's funny on here. Or at least I find it so, that someone all the way around the world, or in Knoxville, or St.Louis, will take their time to try to help me out and really give good, almost always, competant advise, that makes an impression on me. So much so that I want to, at least, try to comply, or give a good reason why I don't. It's funny that I might feel peer pressure, or something like that, over all the distance, without any knowledge what-so-ever about the sender. I think because we share a bond of affection for these old machines that we almost learn to like each other. Having said all that: that's as nice as I'm ever going to be on here. Don't expect a Christmas card. Packratc
Packratc, I did not intend to put your hoses in a kink, I apologize if you think I was somehow making fun at your expense. I believe you will find that everyone here is honestly and genuinely attempting to help others, with no other motives like some other forums I have frequented. Yes, as alrman stated, you can pick the shaft seal from the pump without disassembling the pump. Depending on how long the pump has been on there, the coupling could be difficult to get free from the shaft. Check the shaft for play and check for scoring at the seal land, either could take out your new seal. Dave
Racenitro, Thanks for the brake advise. Suprisingly all the springs were intact and all the balls were rust free & smooth. I've got new dust boots ordered & they'll be in tomorrow. I pick up the bull shaft,or half shaft, seals today. Maybe I should have gotten new springs. I'll see what they look like when I get the linings back from the shop as they have the whol assemblies as thet were going to blast them to clean them up. As there's rain moving in it won't hurt me to leave it apart for a few more days to get the new springs in. Dwloop, you misread, probably what I mistated. No hoses in a kink here. No fun at my expense.I was trying to be complimentary of the folks on here & all the wonderful help you all have provided to me. I just think it's strange that I have felt a need in myself to please the folks on here, even though I know none of you. It's a peer pressure thing that has developed in me through this media that I find kind weird and at the same time fascinating that I would feel it. Peer pressure is a good thing when it is positive for the good of both or all parties concerned. That's what it is here. Now that I am in a feel-good mood again, as a child of the 60's, I'll either go take a valium or a shot of Jack, to modify my mood and see what that does to my thought process. Guarantee I can now hit my thumb with a hammer and feel good about it as I'll say, "It's all a learning process as part of being human, far out man!" Now I'm tired of myself. Packratc
When you get the brakes all back together, if yours has the parking brake connected via a cable to the actuaters. make sure it is free and moving properly. My brakes drove me nuts after rebuild until I figured out the park brake cable was keeping them partialy engaged.
Fascinating thread Packratc! You have a very unique way of describing everything. You should consider writing a book about your life experiences. If I can't be your neighbor I would sure buy your book.
Re: hyd pump resealing - If I have to repair an oil leak like packratc has, for a customer - & knowing history/hours of the machine, a new pump is fitted straight up. Reason being by the time parts for a complete reseal & labour is paid for, a new pump is often cheaper (for a 580CK) & it's a guaranteed repair. If the pump/ shaft is a little worn, it may leak straight away or spit the shaft seal out due to leakage past the pump gears. Sometimes the shaft seal can just be old & worn & a simple replacement is all that is required, other times more is involved. You guys can afford to run the risks as your time is free, doing this for a living I can't risk the comeback on failed repairs.
Thanks Old Man but my hoe is an ol plain jane with no parking brake. Your very kind Tinkerer. I've thought about writing but all I know is past. I'm trying to figure out the future and keep myself from hitting that thumb with the hammer. But, so far, I just know that I'm going to hit it and haven't learned a da-- thing. Alrman, you've got a good point. I think the seal was about 6 bucks. The pump is $600 give or take. I'm a hobbiest & retired. If the shaft looks bad I might even try a whatchamacallit (?). You know, one of them sleeve deals. Will that do it in this application. Thanks, as always, for your sage advise. Packratc
Well, I always thought they were called a Thingamyjig! ..... But seriously I don't think a speedy sleeve will do the job. Never seen one that small, even if you could buy one a special installation tool (a bit of tubing) would be required to install it. If you can see a groove on the shaft - try the new seal - but start checking prices on a new pump .......
No! No! NO! Oh wise one, I must call your hand on this. On this we will certainly disagree. A Thingamyjig is only used on one that turns counter clockwise in the Southern Hemisphere. I recognize your location but you can't get away with this unless you insure all of us that you know the rule of counter rotation. You must admit to all of us that the whatchmacallit is the way to go on odd number days on the opposite side of the international dateline. Most of all, REMEMBER: Lefty Loosy-Righty Tighty. I hope we can get past this gross misunderstanding and that it won't come between us and our friendship. Packratc
I can't be certain, as I've not been to convict island, but I think a thingamajic is bi-rotational packratc, will compensate for either hemisphere. But I have to agree with alrman, don't know that I've seen a speedy sleeve that small, don't mean they don't make them, but even if they did, the splines on the pump shaft may distort the speedy sleeve during installation. You might try Joseph Industries if you require a replacement pump. http://www.joseph.com/
:lmao I'm checking my Dooverlackey , I mean my dictionary as we speak ...... :lmao
I'll bet a strange guy from Tennessee would take one apart have the shaft built up with weld, turn it down, & have it heat treated. I'd hate to give up on it. With all the leaks, & I mean four good ones, it'll pick up the hoe on the buckets at an idle of about 600RPM. The pump, I think, puts out enough pressure. It would be, I hate to use this word, awesome, if it didn't leak at the shaft. I agree the speedy sleeve would be mishapen by the splines. Maybe just one round of electric tape on the shaft for the seal to run on. 3M brand, obviously. Keep diggin' in that dictionary. Why isn't common sense one word? Packratc
Now I'm trying to figure out how to get the seal for the half shafts in to keep the grease from getting to the new brake shoes. I think that big half inch thick piece of steel that has an o-ring behind it and holds in the shims for the bearing preset has to come off. So far it doesn't want to. Does it have more than one inset screw that holds it in place? The thing is coated in cooked on grease and rust or what ever and I can only find one set screw holding it on. Removal of the one set screw won't take it off. Doesn't the seal seat in it from the back? If it is removed externally what holds the seal in place? Are you confused or what? Packratc
Packratc, I just finished this operation a couple months ago... The carrier plates (The big flat plates) do not have to come off, but I did remove them since my unit had play in the differential carrier. Be warned that if you remove these plates with the age of these machines, the shims were rusted and fall to peices, and had to be replaced (More $$$). I did so and re-setup the backlash in my ring-pinion. If you have removed the tapered head screw, there is only one, you will need to pry these loose with a flat pry bar. That was the only way mine would come off. They are fit really close and rust to the housing, so they must come off evenly, cocked to one side a little and they lock hard. On top of all this, there is not a lot of room to work in there with the loader frame, etc. I removed the floor plates to work from the top and bottom. On your 580CK, like the older 530CK, you may not have a floor to deal with. The seals are on the outside of the carrier plates, but are pretty deep as there is a drain groove (best way I can describe it) to drain any oil that gets past the seal in front of the seal to keep it off the brake drums. The drains were plugged on mine. I have heard the seals can be pulled without pulling the plates, but once I found the issue with the differential play I removed mine. There is a thread on here about someone using an old throttle cable handle, with the end bent to pull it. I had to use a punch, it was tight. I think I could have made a tool to do it, but it would have been stout. One trick to use either way is to get a couple sheets of .002 to .005 shim stock, wrap the stub shaft and scotch tape it smooth. that will keep you from cutting the new seal with the grooves in the stub shafts, once the seals are installed remove the shim covering. Hope this helps some. Dave
Dave, you don't know how much I appreciate your post. I'm past knee deep into the brakes for the past two days and have run into every problem. Your post made it all make sense along with the illustrations from the manual. I guess this thread is about to become a tutorial on 580CK brakes. Maybe we can save someone in the future some of the heartbrakes. Packratc
outside of right brake brakes removed to replace seal
The first pic bad paint on the outside of the right brake housing. The second I've taken the housing off and the brake bands and expanding drum comes with it. Pictured is the half shaft or "bull"shaft that is driven by the rear end pinion. My purpose is to replace the seal around this shaft to keep hydraulic fluid from the brakes. I thought it would be a waste to ge this far & not take care of this seal. Oil soaked brake shoes are not a good thing. Notice I've got the plate cocked as I was trying to figure out how to get the seal out. The plate isheld in place with one set screw. The book says it's a phillps head. Mine was a slotted set screw. This is where Dave'spost became invaluable. Packratc
getting seal out
The above pic is after I screwed in somme machine screws to attempt to pull out the oil seal. The machine screws pulled out so I found some screw in hooks and put them in the same screw holes. They pulled out too. The chizel was next. Remember your between the tire, the loader controls and the back hoe frame. Work from the top or bottom is close, dirty, & miserable. But what fun! Maybe I should have told you that I had already drained the main housing of hydraulic fluid. Some of the bolt holes go all the way through & when you take the bolts out it gets messy. I think 5 gallons of old hydraulic fluid was removed. Some in the bucket, some in the pan, some on the floor, some on me. Finally decided that the now-mutilated seal wasn't coming out without removing the big flat plate the book calls the "carrier assy." Packratc
The above picds are of the left & right half shafts. The book refers to them as "gear assy. side differential". If you'll refer back to Dave's post he explains in great detail how to get these off. They are machined to fit in the hole & hold the bearing race for the bearing you see. Behind the big plates are shims that set the pre-load on the shafts as they run off the pinion. They came out good on the right side for me. Not so good on the left. If you'll notice in the second pic there's a broken looking stud at the bottom.That is actually the remains of the stuborn set screw that would not succumb. It had to be drilled to get the side plate off. The shims on that side are toast & I'll have to measure them & make or buy new ones. Notice the grease & grime on the shaft. It's also rust. The seal we're trying to replace runs on the shiny part right beside the bearing. As the seal has to be placed over the shaft & the splines, I thought it best to clean it up. Packratc
Maybe I should correct myself. In the previous post I was talking about removing the big plate, the carrier assy, but the picture shows the half shafts. You don't remove the shafts. You just remove the housing that holds the seal we're trying to replace & the race for the big bearing you're seeing. It's all sealed by a rubber o-ring that you have to take care in replacing to see that it stays in it's groove. Sorry if I confused me. Packratc
Tthe above picture is a close up of one of the half shafts after I have scraped most of the rust & grime off of it. I then took some emory paper & sanded the splines & roughness that just before where the seal rides. The books say you have to use a special tool to cover the splines to put the seal over them so they won't cut the rubber on the seal. I wrapped mine in electric tape and after seating the seal in the plate, it slide right over the splines and I tapped it in place. I'm trying to load a pic of that but am running out of computer skills.I might have used up my quota for the night. I'll add more later but it's the weekend & I've got to figure out the shim problem. It might be a few days. Would be glad for anyone to jump in and add to this deal or help clarrify my ineptness. Packratc
I hope this picture comes out as the one showing the shaft covered in electrical tape to allow the new seal to ride over the splines without cutting into the seal. Packratc
Nope, maybe it's this one. This whole computer deal is a guessing game everytime I turn it on. Packratc
packratc, once you fit the o-ring in the housing, coat it with grease to hold o-ring in place to fit housing.
You're right once again from Knoxville, TN. I fought mine in with a skinny screwdriver from the top and bottom while Chico tapped the housing home. The grease is a better idea. The o-ring fitted a little loose. Sorry about the mess I made of the photos. packratc
Well, I owe you all an apology. I've been a busy guy and on top of that, this 8 year old computer is not working half the time. I didn't mean to drop the ball and let this link go unfinished. I'm going to try some hydraulic oil on this key board and maybe I can get some pics up to finalize this deal.
The above pic is the electrical tape I put over the half shaft to protect the new oil seal. Without the tape the sharp edged splines can cut into the rubber seal. Of course you remember that the seal is firmly gently taped in to that big honkin' flat plate of steel with the rusty shims behind it providing the preload for the half shaft bearings. packratc
, , I took a stab & hope these are the right photos. I couldn't get this blankety blank computer to show me the images. My apologies if they're nudes. packratc
Well they are nude. I got one right. The one on the right is the new shim I made out of household flashing. I had one shim that came apart. I cleaned up the largest piece and tried to measure the thickness. (Dang, Craftsman tape measure) This is as close as I could come. It's about .009 " thick. Probably wouldn't recommend this on a later model machine being used on commercial jobs nor if one was putting in new bearings. My machine is old & for use around the farm & I figured there was probably enough wear in the bearing that it wouldn't hurt if it was a little tight. packratc
. I'm hoping this photo is one showing the brake drum in place. Packratc
I'm getting better with this photo thing. (I'll goof the next ones.) I think this is the last pic that I made with the brake job. The rest is pretty straight foward as you put the cover in place with the new brake shoes being held in palce with the little springs that are attatched to the housing. I put mine on from the bottom. The only problem is getting the brake actuator rod throught the hole while slipping the housing over the brake drum. I think I had to loosen the battery box on the left side to get this accomplished. Brakes are great. Probably not adjusted right but new problems are here already. More on that in a while. Leaks to fix. Packratc
, ,
Told you I'd goof them up! Photo number one on the side is proof positive that I rebuild, and paint leaky cylinders. They're hanging from a ladder along with the footboard in primer. The next photo should be obvious. If it's not, the third photo shows it in use. The screw in plastic top keeps it clean. When your hoe leaks as much as mine you need one of these. Packratc (I know that hydraulic fluid does not flow sideways. The photo is like that because I live on a hill.)
Hanging sideways in my carport is the ROPS and the fenders off a 580B. Sand blased primered & painted. Don't know when they'll be on the machine as I now have shuttle problems. I'll start a new thread and ask, no--I'll beg for advise and patience. packratc
You keep putting lipstick on that pig ya ain't gonna wanna drive it through the mud no more. LoL
looking good .keep it up missed you tb.