I have been looking for an excuse to try a different shield gas lately. For all of my general welding, I have been using 75/25 as that is what my supplier normally carries. But have the option of getting some 90/10. I was planing on using(making due) my normal .035 solid ER70s-6 wire. Welder is Millermatic 210. Anyway, the boom is 1" plate steel. Will be welding a "crack" in the upper section of the arm , and two new bushings for the bucket. I mase the "crack" in order to straighten a bent portion of the arm. Does the 90/10 produce less spatter and potential for better finish, while the 75/25 better penetration? Maybe just use the 90/10 for the cover passes? The boom is off of the loader. Most welds will be made in flat position. Thanks
Been thinking about preheat. The prevous, extensive repairs where done cold, so i don't see much sense in it, but it seems to be a common recomendation.
Not a welding expert by any means but some preheat (100C or thereabouts) surely can’t hurt. Do a search on HEF for “runout tabs”. That weld repair would definitely benefit from them. Also a needle gun to peen and stress-relieve each pass would be another suggestion.
90/10 is for spray or pulse spray. It doesn't short arc as nice as 75/25 in my opinion. I don't believe your 210 has the nutz to get into true spray transfer. I'd just run the 75/25 if that's what you have, as hot as you can get it. Preheat and gouge out anything you don't like the looks of. I'd probably put a fish plate across it too. I wouldn't be afraid of getting a roll of .035 dual shield and burning that joint uphill to get as much heat out of the little miller as possible.
Preheat is always a good idea. Gets things dried out and warmer so the welded area doesn’t cool as quick. The mix and wire you have should be fine with proper procedure. I wouldn’t be afraid of a pass or two on one side then grinding or gouging the back side out enough to make sure it’s clean and penetrated well. Then weld it up alternating sides to keep from pulling one way or another. Anything like that we also wrap up when we’re done so it cools slowly. X2 on a fish plate.
Here's the info on runout tabs. I think they would be ideal for that repair in that you would be able to establish the arc and terminate it outside the length of the repair. As a rule of thumb the length of the masurement highlighted in yellow should be about double the thickness of the plate you are welding. The tabs get cut off afterwards with a cutting disc.
Thanks for the info guys. Will do some preheat and lay into it. I undertand that some have spray welded with the 210, but that's it's very upper end. As I mentioned, there have been 4 or MAJOR repairs done to this boom. The loader lived a very hard foundry life before I got it. As you can see in the picture, I pulled it in several directions after cutting it. Laying on my bench, it was pretty close just looking at it, but when i ran a long shaft between the eyes, it definitely lacked some. Given the fact that the pin bosses on the loader frame had also been repaired, i thought i might not have much to loose by just using the frame to help align the bores. Glad i did. With one pin in, and the other only 1/2 in, i could see the rest of the boom was out of level. I pulled down right at my hinge, which leveled out the rest of the boom. Fortunately, the cut i had made allowed for some adjustment. I ended up with a much bigger gap to weld, but both upper pins sliped right in/out. Not so sure how well a fish plate will fit over that. Kind of nasty, but the twist i was compensating for was spread over a couple of feet.
That needs lining up and welding, then line boring IMHO. I don’t care how well the welding is done, the structure will always pull to a certain extent no matter how well it’s stress-relieved, and the pins won’t fit any more.
You're probably right, but these are factors that effected my compromise... 1. the bores are still good 2.the arm is twisted, and forces needed to twist it back are beyond my resources. 3. I am not setup to linebore, though i did consider modifying some old lineboring equipment i have acces to. 4. Intended use is "just" on my farm. 5.low budget. 6.on site cutting and welding capabilities. Here is what i was dealing with... Nearly 5/8 twist in the arm I cut. The other side was less than 1/16 out.
It's going to be a bit tricky but can be done. Gtermini was bang on regarding the shielding gas and welding. I just don't know if an MM210 is enough machine for the repair. Preheat to at least 200F deg's. Mounting on the machine is good for one end but I'd get a bar or heavy wall pipe that is a fairly tight fit (machined if required) to fit across the bucket mounts and the holes for the linkage further up the loader arms. I would also weld braces between the loader arms close to where the pins go to keep them at the correct spacing. It moves 1/16" and you'll fight to get the pins in. The nice thing is the break has enough room to move during the welding and cooling process and won't make a lot of difference if it isn't completely flat with a straight edge as long as all the pins fit. This is a perfect example of where to use run off tabs as Nige has mentioned. The gap to fill adds to the excitement. I think the easiest way to fill the gap once everything is clamped straight is to put a piece or round bar or flat bar in the middle and once you get enough weld on one side, grind/gouge the round bar out from the other side so you have 100% penetration. Wrapping the weld in a fire blanket or some insulation when completed to let it slow cool is a good idea in addition to peening between passes. More passes ran as hot as you can make a sound weld are better than 2 or 3 heavy passes. Reinforcing plates should be oval or diamond shaped and you can cut some holes in the them for plug welds. I agree on .035" Dual Shield as well. Something like the Lincoln 71M below. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/ass...Shielded-Outershield-Outershield71M/c3101.pdf
Steve, if you want bit more penetration use CO2 shielding gas with Outershield 71M or similar wires from Hobart (Elite-Arc) or ESAB (DualShield); they're designed for both types of gases and all position welding. CO2 is a reactive shielding gas; you'll have a bit more smoke and sparks, but reduced gas cost. I would be using 'cold water spray > water fire extinguisher' to move the plate around and straighten during the welding process. Then fish-plate with the plates tapered @ ends to 30 degrees for reinforcements. Probably cut off both pin-bore bushings and align with a precision bar and re-weld after the arms are repaired. Home DIY project? Paying customers, cheaper to make new bushing and align bore. Good luck
Steve, understanding the circumstances and constraints regarding line boring would convince me more than ever to use a needle peening gun to stress-relieve every weld pass after it was laid. At least it might give you half a chance of getting away with keeping things in line and not having to re-bore.
Yea, home DIY. Will definitively take the advice and get some 71M, preheat and needle scale. I have some good material to insulate and let cool down slow. I definitively know that welding up and lineboring is the correct way to go for a paying job. But as rough as the boom is, i have little to loose other than my time.
Was the original crack completely through? It would have been better to leave the bucket on and get everything lined up and braced before working on the repair. I think the only way to possibly avoid line boring is to have tight fit shafts going through all mounting holes on the loader boom and have some heavy bracing welded on the rest of the loader boom. Even still you may need to do some heating to get things straight and lined up when completed. During the welding process I don't think I'd want to be using water to control distortion. You want to get the repair hot and keep it fairly hot till the repair is done. Peening will help to keep from getting it too hot as will welding from each side. After the crack is repaired then you could use some heat shrinking techniques if required. This is a pretty major repair and the twist may be in or near where the cross member for the bucket cylinder attaches. I'd do a lot of checking and measuring to try and determine where the twisting originates. It may be beneficial to heat or cut the welds on the cross member to get the 2 sides parallel and level. What make and model is the loader? If it's common you may find a decent loader boom on a scrapped machine. It would save you a ton of frustration.
I just downloaded #1 photo / post 7. Dave is correct, 'would have been better..... I would reinstall the loader arms and pin up to the loader frame and lift cylinders / 4ea pins. Measure the lift cylinder stroke to be equal and level (machine) and across the arms @ the loader frame and straighten, shrink working forward. Peening after each weld pass. Not required because the weld joints are not highly restrained; just the opposite, those arms will walk around like wet noddles. The only areas that are restrained are @ the large crossmember. Material? Grade50 A572 maybe... Outershield 71M 0.035" is tiny wire, turn up the amps (wire speed / voltage)
I may need some more education on the flux core wire. I dug out a partial roll that I have. It's a E71T-11 From what I gather(and how i used it in the past) it is a gassless flux core, which may be different than something like an E71T-9 or GS that mentions the addition of the gas? Correct?
E71T-11 is a Innershield wire. The internal flux creates the shielding envelope @ the weld puddle. E71T-11 is a general purpose, all position wire used for general fabrication, repairs and also multi-pass welding. Lincoln example NR-211, limited metal thickness 1/2" for wire diameters 0.068" / 3/32" Also not impact rated, per Charpy-V notch test. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-...rshield-innershieldnr-211-mp(lincolnelectric) Very popular wire, but you'll have chip flux and lightly grind after each pass when doing multi pass welds. STRAIGHT POLARITY and low deposition rates compared to external gas shielded wires. Small diameter NR-211 like 0.030-0.035-0.045" I consider as sheet metal wires. I carry a 25lb roll of 0.045" to use for filling open weld fillet gaps caused by guide rollers' edges rubbing. External gas shielding doesn't work will in that application because of breeze/wind disrupting the shielding gas flow. Impact rated self shielding Innershield wires like Lincoln's NR-232/233 SEMA approved cost over twice as much versus Lincoln's Outshield wires...$4.50-ish versus $2.00 per lb @ jobber wholesale cost. NR-232/233 welding procedure is critical; demo video
Cool, thanks. Will chew on that a bit. But, it IS different than an outershield flux core with gas? I figured i would be dealing with slag either way with any of the flux core wires.
NR211 would be like welding the repair with 6013. About the worst choice possible and the other Innershield wires are like StanRUS says are quite a bit more expensive and ten times more smoke. A Lincoln rep told me years ago that the white stuff floating in the air after using NR211 is like milk and won't harm you. Yes a Lincoln rep. said that. I remember looking at the test procedures for NR211 and it took 20 some passes on 3/4" plate to meet specs. The gas shielded Flux-Core(Dual-Shield) is the best wire for this repair. When the weld is done properly slag is easy to remove from flux-core but I'd use a wire brush in a grinder and have a grinding wheel ready if any flaws or inconsistences show up in the weld. If you wanted to peen it some a needle scaler would remove the slag. My personal choice would be to stick weld it but maybe I'm a little old school. I might use solid wire Mig for the initial passes to fill the gap being that it would be ground or gouged out from the other side. That said you really need to figure out why the gap got so big. Measure the distance from loader pivot pin on the machine to the pivot pin for the bucket on the good arm and compare it to the cut apart arm. You also need the width of the arms at the bucket the proper spacing. Get those measurements accurate and then measure diagonally from the same pivot pin locations, ie/ top left on loader to lower right on bucket. It needs to be the same on both sides or darn close. It needs to be corner squared the same way a steel skid would be. Then you want to be able to slide line up bars in the bucket, lift cylinder and linkage holes. If everything is straight they should slide in but putting the line up bars in first could help keep things from moving too much when trying to get everything straight. I'd guess you're going to need a big rosebud or 2 get things lined up but get it as close as possible at the start of the repair.
Thanks, but i have a disconnect between the NR211 and the E71T-9 wire. We are talking about different wires, no? I tend to agree the e71t-11 i have is not correct for this repair. The gap got so big because of some(many) repairs. While the repairs are sound, it seems that the upper pin bushings/bores on the loader frame where replaced. It seems that they may not have been not lined up correctly. At some point, it appears likely that one of the pins fell out or broke with a loaded bucket. The subsequent severe missalignment twisted the upper section of the loader arm thst remained attached. Including the mounting point for the lift cylinder. Had the major twist in one arm have not been present, i would have chose a different repair method. I used the spacing between the arms at the center lever weldment as my reference. Even that area had been broken in half an repaired in the past, but, that area damn sure was the most solid part of the boom. I am not worried about the bucket mounting points. Those will be new. Including fabricating a quick tach for skid steer buckets/attachments. And, they are no longer available to measure from.
Yes two different types of wires NR211 is self shielding flux core / E71T-9 is gas shielded flux core ESAB E71T-9 https://www.esab.ca/ca/en/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.product&productCode=12594 ALL welding smoke / fumes have negative health affects
In your first picture there is no gap. You may have been a little too hasty with the cutting torch when you started this repair. You need to have exact reference points to take measurements. A slight gap in the repair would be beneficial because it will shrink some on cooling. When pipe welding they calculate for the gap closing 1/2 its original space. Not sure how much the loader arm would shrink but bracing would help with that. If it's twisted at the heavy cross member you may have to cut some of the weld(s) out to get it straight. I'd have to see it person and if I had more time than money to do the repair may even completely cut off the cross member from the bad arm and then weld it back on aligned with the other arm. The big question is after all the work will you be successful. Someone must have thought they were driving a 994 to abuse it that bad.
Foundry work. We currently use a hydraulic breaker mounted to a similar loader to "knock the bottom out" of the cupola. You basically reach in under an overhang to bust out a material very much like concrete with the breaker pounted up. When this loader was in service, there was no hydraulic breaker. Just the bit mounted solidly to the loader arms. Then beat on the bottom using the hydraulics for up to 8 hrs(whatever it took). We do this every 4-6 weeks.
I will admit, I am trying to polish a turd. But the engine/hydraulics are very strong. The thing is already hell to look at.
E71T-GS is what is available here locally. Trying to find out the difference between this and the -9 or -1 wire. Looks closer to the -11 to me.
Steve, Several years ago I was pushing banks back with my old W20B, it was a sub-zero Jan. afternoon, hit a some hidden bedrock (hard enough it put me up on the steering wheel)...raised the boom up to dump the load of snow and realized pretty soon what I broke by how crooked the bucket was. Limped the loader into the shop, figured I was going to have to remove the boom from the machine to do a "proper" repair...Ended up only removing the wheel, torched bevels on both sides the 1-3/4" thick arm and pulled back into position with several chains and binders. Pre-heated about a foot both ways from the break, a few pounds of 1/8" 7018 (all I had at the time) lots of small hot passes (with peening between) then wrapped with some R19 insul. Put the wheel back on the next day and put it back to work! Didn't grind down the welds for plating due to how close the break was to the pin boss (I figured if it broke again, it would only be me mad at me!). Regards, Bob
Yea, those "get by" jobs tend to last and last. Lol. I did find this... Still no real clear definition of the "useability" collumn, but that does show there us a difference in the -GS and the -11. Either are suitable for no shield gas, but just the GS is listed for use with gas. Lucky me... a buddy had a new 10lb spool of the -gs. Good thing I passed on the GS at the parts store this morning. Saved me $70 or so. Yay. So, maybe i will give the GS a go. And regarding the gap... turns out a short piece of 1/8 key stock fit snug. Thanks
E71T-GS is even worse than the E71T-11. It doesn't have to meet any AWS specs. It is self shielded as well. I refer to the GS as generally shi--y. I've never seen a gas shielded GS wire. It even says in your post above for single pass welds only. We told you what type of welding wire to use but instead of listening to experience you're trying to find a different wire without having any knowledge on the subject. YOU ARE WASTING YOUR TIME AND OURS if you aren't going to listen. Wires that list low temperature impact strength is what you want and this was mentioned. It basically means they are designed for dynamic loading applications where welds can be subject to twisting and stress as opposed to static loads where the welds aren't under stress. An example of the difference would be if you had a steel table rated for 1000lbs. A static load rating would be for holding 1000lbs. sitting on the table. A dynamic load would be for 1000lbs. dropped on the table from 10' above. Big difference! Your other thread maybe not be but this one is sure headed the way of the D6 loss of oil pressure thread. You ask for advise but then question it. Why ask if you aren't going to use it?
I am not TRYING to find a different wire. That is all I am able to find for this weekend, simple as that. I do value and appreciate the input. I am glad you responded and stopped me from a mistake. Sure, you told me the -11 wasn't what I want to use - I took that advice and kept looking. THIS IS THE 1ST TIME I have heard that the GS is worse than the -11. I found that chart, which says the GS can be shielded. I latched onto the shielded rating, and I guess I minimized the "single pass" spec. My bad. I am going to take the advice. That's why I keep positing updates regarding my frustration on finding the right wire on a Saturday. Why do so many places sell the ****** wire!!! And nobody open during "off hours" carries the good stuff? I guess I will say the hell with buying local and buy from Amazon, once again, and wait a couple of days. But really, thank you guys for the help.
Help a dummy understand the numbers. The specs on ALL OF THEM imply 70,000psi, all position, flux core. It seems that the ONLY difference on paper is the "useability" collumn. Surely you can see how easy it would be to go astray. So, if I am going to order ONE WIRE, should it be the -1 or the -9? Or, should I go with the Lincoln NR-233 which appears to be a -8? The -1??? Can't believe it is that cheap - $35 for 10# https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Demon-E...ie=UTF8&qid=1546720354&sr=8-2&keywords=e71t-1
Ha, try WalMart, Homedepot hobbyist welder's section you'll be able to purchase a better wire for your project. Short video, kid welder want-a-be after 5 minutes of instructions by my neighbor, a 35yr plus professional welder just off a off-shore project. Vertical Up and Overhead; the youngster will qualify for AWS All-positions. Steve sorry, After 65yrs of welding I am worn out from giving how-to advise. Lincoln Outershield 71M is a very forgiving, easy to use wire!!!!!!!!! Your Miller 210 will run 71M using Reverse Polarity versus Straight Polarity; bit of extra duty cycle time. 71M feeds good (harder and stiffer), doesn't stick @ mig-tip from overheating like ESAB or Hobart wires. Example photos of using 0.045" 71M completely 'out of normal parameters' and ignoring welding procedures bell-whistles and lollipops . Cast hardened steel parts coated with tungsten carbide hard facing. Must work emergency fix it. Supplier ran out of replacement teeth the come from Spain via air-freight. PS: don't use keyway stock to fill gaps. Bang a stick of 7018 against the steel arm to knock the flux off, way cheaper.
Gentlemen, there is a big difference between fixing a production machine the “right way” and fixing a toy as best as you can. As far as wasting anyone’s time goes, you can opt out from posting and put your time somewhere else.
True, but don't opt out. As ugly as this may seem, surely it will save someone else similar frustration. Plus, we still don't know the difference between the -1, -8 or -9.
Stan, missed your edit. So the Lincoln 71M, is different than the T-? Variants how? The T designates "tubular". I assume S is solid, but I wonder what M is? Your description certainly sounds like it deserves a spot in the toolbox.
The waste of time would be to do a repair like this loader arm only to have it fail because you were in a hurry and couldn't wait to get the proper welding wire. It's not going to be a 2 hour patch it up repair. Most T-1 wires are also T-9 but that shouldn't be a concern. Trying to figure out and understand all the numbers and classifications of Flux-Core wires could make even the most seasoned welder go insane. Self-Shielded compared to Dual Shield is a completely different animal. All that really matters is using the correct wire for the application along with the proper procedure. I suggested the 71M Lincoln because it would be a good choice and comes in .035". Not all manufacturers have .035" in Dual Shield. .045" or 1/16" would have been a better choice but would need a bigger machine than an MM210. Using self-shielded wire for the 1st time on a repair like this is a recipe for disaster. I have no problem offering advise on something I'm experienced with but if the advise I'm giving is going to be constantly questioned is a waste of everybody's time. This repair is a lot more than what is considered a DIY repair. Box stores sell wire for DIY repairs because they sell welders for DIY repair. Welding supplies sell wire and machines for heavy duty repairs. Isn't there a welding supply in Southern Ohio?
Thanks for that. Yes, airgas, delille, and others. But nearly all close at 5, with no saturday hours. And, 45 minutes away at the closest. That's some my frustration.
That kid looks like he's really paying attention. Only thing I would suggest is cover up his bare arms. I look like a drug addict from doing overhead 6010. LoL You get used to the burns but they still hurt.
Dave, Your pdf link for the 71M says... Mild Steel, All Position • AWS E71T-9C-J, E71T-9M-J, E71T1-C1A4-CS1-H16, E71T1-M21A4-CS1-H16 I do not intend to defy your advice, but the E71T-9 and E71T1 are listed there. I assumed they are the equivelant. And matching all the other mumbo jumbo for the most economical purchase is what i have been attempting when asking about the Blue Demon E71T-1/1M wire I linked to. Perhaps I misinterpet the text.
I'd go with a name brand wire. Blue Demon is an offshore knock off at best. See what the welding supply has.
10 4
Here's the rest of the link regarding flux-core wires. T-9 has better low impact properties than T-1 . https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-...-theory/Pages/fcaw-usability-designators.aspx
Millermatic 210 Ph1 230V 60% duty cycle @ 160 amps. REF: https://www.millerwelds.com/files/owners-manuals/o1325a_mil.pdf Using 71M 0.035" WS 400 inches per minute, Voltage 24-27, approximate 160amps. REF: https://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/Consumable_Flux-CoredWires-Gas-Shielded-Outershield-Outershield71M/c3101.pdf Straight CO2 would help keep the mig gun cooler increasing the gun's duty cycle (all mig gun rated duty cycles are for CO2). Pre-heat and maintaining interpass temp? Mite have throw a bit extra heat @ the welds with a heating torch. Large steel area will suck the heat out of the weld joints quickly. Small diameter flux-core wires 0.035" or under are priced higher targeting body shops and home hobbyist. Maybe more economical to stick with solid mig wire, even 0.030" and keep the volts up higher to prevent cold laps.
Thanks again. I have always thought the duty cycle was mostly determined by the windings of the welder moreso than the gun. I have had the welder go into temporary shutdown before, but never had an issue with the gun. How would the co2 run cooler? It would make the weld itself hotter, no? Propane weed burner and ceramic blanket for preheat. Not sure I'm following you on the. 030 solid. I was actually considering getting a set of .045 rollers(and wire) since I will be making a special trip anyway. Depends on where the value sweet spot is. Might even pick up some co2, rather than the 90/10 i asked about initially. I do have plans in fabricating a quick attach adapter after I finish the boom. So might even just get 33lbs.
Mig gun duty cycle is separate from welder's duty cycle. Mig gun duty cycle affects overheating of the mig contact tip; overheating causes wire-to-tip sticking and shortened tip life. CO2 is a cooling gas, that is why mig guns run cooler using CO2. Were looking at mig contact tip and gun's electrical current conductor > goose neck. CO2 well produce a bit hotter weld puddle with less fluid puddle wash-in (ropey weld bead) compared to 25/75% and doesn't weld out of position as good. Per Miller's spec's 210 Millermatic's sweet spot is 160amps @ 60% duty cycle. So I would choose a wire that runs close to the sweet spot with bit of reserve capacity.
This is for Bernard guns but shows higher amp ratings at 100% duty cycle using CO2. If I recall a lot of guns are only rated at 60% with mixed gas but the 100% duty cycle sounds better. Turning your machine up 20-25 amps could work if you keep the piece warm with a torch and aren't piling the beads on one after another. Especially if you're welding on one side then the other and wire brushing and grinding between passes. I think I'd be tempted to try the 71M wire because it has better penetration than solid wire and is less prone to cold lap or lack of fusion at the edges. It can sometimes get porosity for no apparent reason but if that happened you'd want to grind it out anyway. https://www.bernardwelds.com/files/SpSh_Q_Gun_2_3_4.pdf
I think 71M would be Steve's best choice. Dave, porosity using 71M? Can be trapped shielding gas from a bit to high of flow rate, bit too long of distance from the work > CTW Couple Mig Gun ratings Lincoln Mag Pro 550 page 3 gives a visual chart. I purchase a new one last Dec off Ebay @ $600.00 saving to run 1/8" wires. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/ass...nsandTorches-MagnumPro-MagnumPRO550/e1201.pdf Bernard (ITW owned like Miller) Scroll down a bit for Ratings https://www.bernardwelds.com/best-of-the-best-platform-p156229 NS-3M 1/8" Innershield @ 525amps with forced air cooled DIY mig gun modifications. @ 600amps weld deposition is 39.5lbs per hr. Example of non-impact rated wire used for extreme impact applications. Recommended by the grouse bar steel manufactures for welding on grousers. Those grouse bar are from https://www.manganal.com/index-2.html customer purchased. My buddy's 2nd grouser job. He was leaving a 1/8" gap for full penetration weld; weld cracking when the puddle cooled....Wrong welding procedures...start over deal. His 1st grouser job was with Dura-Bar, he could get by using the wrong procedure. MY POINT, when welds start having problems, STOP. Call someone who can help, search internet whatever. LONG WIRE stick out 2 3/4 or 3 3/4": required to heat the flux inside; sort of like inside out stick rod. Stick rods' amp limitation is the flux. Over-amped the flux falls off. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/ass...lded-Innershield-InnershieldNS-3M/c320002.pdf
What is the smaller wire alligator clip on the final drive? Plasma? Hard to tell, but he was grounded at the pad he was welding, right? Looks like I see two welding leads going above him plus the mig gun. And regarding the cooling, is it due to the different molecular weight/properties between argon and the co2? Could I assume straight co2 is roughly 25% better at cooling than 75/25? Also, regarding the adjustments on my welder. Wire speed is only listed 1-100. Maybe i should do an actual test and measure the inches/minute, but i wish the manual gave a chart for inches or amps. Same thing on the 1-7 voltage switch. Maybe i can find something on the web Found a partial picture.
Based on that info I found, and a little math, this might get us close... Amps Inches Dial 30 35 10 42 140 20 63 210 30 84 280 40 105 350 50 126 420 60 147 490 70 168 560 80 189 630 90 210 700 100 So 160 amps is roughly 500 in/min and 80 on the dial. Not sure about the voltage, as I am not sure what the output is at setting 1 yet. But... From Stan's post of Lincoln information. Until I double check my welder, 400 in/min = around 120 amps according to my matchbook math. Or, 160 amps = about 500 inches/minute. So, at 400 inches, i may be under the recomended amps, and at 160 amps, i would be running more in/min. I know this is all subject to change once u start welding, but this is the 1st time i have tried to correlate my dials to actual numbers and mfg recomendations.
No he was not grounded on the pad he was welding. Everyone on this forum will jump up and down, ' ruin the track seals, finals bearings etc'. That didn't occur. He ran a small bead to join each link. When you rotate the track the bead breaks. I don't like that, adds a extra step and you can use the Bessey Ground Clamp to clamp down one end of the grouser bar on each pad. Grouser Bar Welding per instructions: Use a 1/16th inch soft wire (clean mechanic's wire) between the grouser bar and pad that allows weld shrinkage to prevent cracks. Try to avoid weld puddle admixture; i.e. don't manipulate the wire trying wash in the two different steels. As I stated #46, my buddy was doing everything wrong, in fact totally opposite from recommended procedure. His 1st grouser job using Dura-Bar, he was using 71M for a root pass, then 3/32" NR-202 or something for 2nd-3rd finishing passes. In the Mojave desert @ 120 deg, not enjoying the job. I know good welders with stick, tig and easy to use innershield wires who cannot use NR-232 because they don't read the procedure instructions. Point out the problem; 'I don't weld that way, you can have the crap wire'. Bessey Clamp with 1/2" bolt weld on for a threaded lug. Double 2/0 ground cables, hooked directly to a Miller 500 Airpack's output terminals. For NS-3M reverse polarity; negative is the grounding circuit. Small wire with alligator clamp is the wire feeder's voltage sensing circuit. ALL voltage measurements are work-to-wire feeder's output lug. Most accurate measurement using a multimeter. Wire Speed per Minute: feed for 15 seconds, measure the length X 4 = IPM OEM engineers, field rep's teach that exact procedure to set up wire feeders and welders. Older feeders did not have voltage or wire speed gauges; gauges were optional add-ons. Millermatic 210; set to 5-6-7 whatever, measure wire speed and then measure actual voltage between the work and output terminal using a multimeter to accurately set voltage. Cat manufacturing (and repair-rebuild) tolerance: 2 bores in alignment +/- 0.002" Buckets, Hitches, Loader Arms, Tractor Frames, Haul Truck Frames etc. For the line boring experts: HEF member's set up, do you see anything unusual?
Dave, porosity using 71M? Can be trapped shielding gas from a bit to high of flow rate, bit too long of distance from the work > CTW Stan I wasn't referring specifically to 71M. Years ago when I first ran Dual Shield it seemed for no apparent reason you would get porosity in the weld. It wasn't just me. Another welder threw the Mig gun across shop because he had done 3 perfect welds on gussets for a flare stack base and on the 4th one had porosity. It was a royal pain because the base on these was only about 10" and the welds had to ground out with a die grinder. I think that's one of the reasons I prefer stick for critical welds I don't want to mess up. I used to have a Miller Trailblazer 55D (400 amp CC/CV) and ran some 3/32" NS3M. Could go through a 50lb. spool in under 2 1/2 hours. When it worked right looked like sub-arc. I read a report concerning it cracking and learned it had aluminum in it and that is what gave it such high deposition rates but not the best material to have in steel weld. Tried a little NR232 when Lincoln used to have a demo room and it has a definite learning curve.
Steve, you need to stop trying to reverse engineer everything and just the accept information given. Straight CO2 is a liquid form in the cylinder. Try picking up a 50lb CO2 cylinder compared to a similar size 244 argon/CO2 cylinder. The mix gas is in a gas state. CO2 often needs a heater to keep the regulator from freezing from drawing the gas off. Very similar to the way propane tanks work. For wire feed speed do as Stan said and run the wire for 15 seconds and see how many inches and multiply by 4. Don't try to figure it out on the dial. Lincoln puts wire feed speed on some of their feeders. I bought a high end volt meter with a separate lead and mounted it on my wire feeder to make it a little easier to set for flux-core wires. A lot of wires list volts and amps so having the volts close makes it easier to get the wire speed (amps) correct.
This is mirroring the generator thread he started...
Worse, the thread started by another Steve....
Same dude. HeavyEquipmentForums
Close but the D6C loss of oil pressure thread went on over a year. Glad he got his machine back running properly though with a lot of help from this forum. The dealer &^%$#! up and tried to get him to pay them to keep his machine. Cat field service techs got involved.
Buddy, I just want to understand it better. Not just blindly follow instructions. Sorry. I am glad for the help. But I do sometimes do things the hard way. Lol It's a lot more trouble than I anticipated, but i am following the advice. Ended up finding a new roll of lincoln 71m on ebay, after two real welding supply houses said they did not have it. Only e71t-11 That will give me time to rig up the 5lb co2 cyl i forgot I had. Not sure how long it will last, but it's just sitting here otherwise. For what it's worth , the guy at airgas did say that it would weld better with 75/25. But they do not carry smaller tanks of co2, and wouldn't exchange my 75/15 empty.
Every time I order NS-3M, the welding engineer goes on a rant about lack of impact rating. Norhtridge quake downed bridges were welded with NS-3M using narrow gap method. Lincoln's chief engineer used politics with *** kissing to keep Lincoln in business. Still hundreds of building with crack structural steel that haven't been repaired. i repair equalizer bars for large Cat dozers using NS-3M. Joining A572 plate burn out to heat treated 4140 steel forgings, never had a breakage. Most wires have aluminum alloy; not good for our health, aluminum is a neurotoxin. Also used with vaccines to cause immune system reactions. Magnesium fumes cause dementia type issues. I am all for fume extractor guns or hoods.... 71M porosity; I keep a scarfing torch handy and carbon arc. 7018 is hard to beat
If only I had a better stick welder....
Steve, ESAB (Linde) How To Book with Why and How Come https://www.esabna.com/euweb/mig_handbook/592mig1_4.htm
I apologize that I came across as a prick about it; just jumping to conclusions on my part from what little is provided, and definitely not my place (especially being new here). Try to give everyone a fair shake, and I'm guilty of doing things the hard way myself. No offense meant.
Well, my impatience and ADD has kept me busy while waiting on the 71M wire. As I mentioned, I am also building a quick attach for this loader. I think have the pieces I need mocked up with wood. They will be cut from 3/8 plate with the exception of the main crossmember shown. It will be two 2" sq tubes side by side. Thoughts? Go back to solid wire, or stick with the 71M? The plates for the quick attach brackets are about .300.
Looks amazing but that wood is not going to weld very well Honestly though once you get the dual shield wire tuned in you will be amazed how well it works on a project like that
Thanks. I do have bosses made already that will weld onto the outside of the plates where the pins go. Not just relying on the plate for pin support. One thing I don't really like is the locking levers pull up to lock. Things just didn't work out with them pulling up to unlock, like most machines. The substantial cross-member required for my single tilt cylinder was necessary.
Dual shield is hard to beat. We use it a lot at work building our own tooling etc. You can lay down a nice bead and really put some heat down too.
At the risk of irritating the experts, wonder where will I be able to use up the 10lbs 71T-GS I was given? Surely it has some value too. But, on the other hand, 25lbs of 71M will likely last a while around my place. Also, with the gussets I have planned to strengthen my crossmember assy, I am wondering about wall thickness on the 2x2 tubes. 1/4 should be fine, I suppose. Or, possibly just one rectangle 4x2
Steve, I would stay with 75/25% as you have that already . CO2 requires higher voltage setting to maintain arch transfer compared to 75/25% gas mix, i.e. will lower your duty cycle with the Millermatic 210. NOT BROKE, DON'T FIX IT. Pre-machined pin bushings: If you have two bores in alignment requires using a alignment mandrel 0.005" smaller inside diameter than the machined bore diameter. Cat manufactured thousands of buckets (up 980 sized loaders and excavator buckets) using pre-machined bushings. Welding the bushings is referred to as 'pre-set' welding. You follow a circular weld sequence pattern and continuously turn the mandrel and slide the mandrel back and forth to determine by hand-feel weld shrinkage caused miss alignment. Alignment and Repair of your loader's arms will require using a similar approach, IMO.
The loader arms will require close attention to detail while being welded and most likely need some tweaking with a hyd. jack, come-a-long and/or heat to get the pins to go in smoothly after completion. Weld pulls one way, line up pin is tight, cools off pin is tight the other way. I'd be more worried about getting the loader arms fixed so they work before I spent a bunch of money on a quick attach. The roll of GS flux core could be used for anything that just sits there and doesn't take a lot of loading. If you wanted to build a table or some shelves or something light duty it would work.
Yep...Steve thinks a bit about the arms, IMO...job done onto fab-ing a attachment. No loading, HA, HA...Cat (and Komatsu) products fab'd with L50, no impact loading specified, buckets, quick attachments, grippers, shears, ripper frames, dozer blades etc. Manufacturing uses the most economical weld filler material as per engineering design specifications. Couple of example photos. Mig spray arch, L50-CO2 downhand Cat Work Tools-Wamego Robot Welded, L50-CO2 horizontal downhand FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS BLINDLY equals Standard ISO, ANSI shop floor procedures worldwide; shop prints with symbols-control boxes, sometimes short written descriptions by engineering. Raw materials to finish products...employees' job description IS to follow instructions that are not > BLINDLY sent to the shop floor, LOL Robots don't have opinions, pi$$ed girlfriends or wives, disappointing childhoods; programming, maintenance and repeat welding... Ebay welding wires: 71M is packaged in cardboard box and warped with plastic bag. In **** poor storage condition for 12 months soaking up moisture. Good deal gone bad, LOL @ Steve, Airgas Ohio dose not stock 71M; hard to believe your nose did not hit your keyboard typing that statement
They said they did have a roll of Bohler 71M in .045, but the .035 I saw on the shelf was all -11. My next choice vendor also did not have any 71M stocked in .035. They also discouraged the 100% co2, said it would be colder. Anyway, learned a little. Thanks for the fabrication tips. I won't bother with the co2. Sounds like more trouble than it's worth. I do hope I have good results with the ends of my loader arms.
If it's Lincoln L-50 Mig wire it has impact values at O deg's. F with CO2. Still better than t-11 flux-core. Lincoln has or used to have a special L-56 with impact values at -40 or -50.
Dave, L50/CO2 spec -0deg CVN = not specified. CO2-solid wire vertical up is difficult to use compared to 71M.
Wow! Thank you, thank you. Just running some tests to get settings close and this wire just runs so smoothe. I spent most of the morning installing a fume extraction fan i have wanted to do for quite some time. And after you mentioning the additional smoje from the flux core, i figured no time like right now. I have some other stuff to do today(genset) and dont think i will have time to finish. So, rather than preheat twice, i will start early tomorrow with that. Thanks again for the advice.
Oh, on my Millermatic 210 running the .035 70M vertical. I am running wire on setting 65 which is about 440 in/min and volts on 6, which is about 25 volts loaded - 32v open. 35 cfm 75/25. 3/4 stickout.
Try 23.5-24 volts, 75/25% should run 1-1.5 volts lower than straight CO2. Mig contact tip should be recessed 1/8", not flush with edge of the nozzle. Use that distance for stickout. If you're not in a air draft try lowering gas flow to 30Cfm. I use a flow meter that attaches to the mig gun's nozzle to measure cfm delivered. Pricey $70.00 calibrated plastic tube and rubber cup, but eliminates all of the variables like different flow meter model orifices, wire feeders etc. If you start getting worm-gas marks refer to this Lincoln article: https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-...ns/Pages/gas-marks-on-fcaw-process-welds.aspx @ sweet spot, you'll hear a 'hiss', low smoke, sparks and the flux will self peel or just require a tiny tap. Have fun PS, Lincoln's Welding Solutions / handy reference https://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-solutions/Pages/welding-solutions.aspx
Stan, this is where I saw impact values of 27ft./lbs. at O deg's. F with CO2. No rating for mix gas though. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/ass..._MIGGMAWWires-SuperArc-SuperArcL-50/c4103.pdf Gas flow 20-25 and is CFH not CFM. Sorry, I'm in tech. support and hear this all time or how much PSI should the shielding gas be? Here's the suggested parameters for 71M wire. https://www.lincolnelectric.com/ass...Shielded-Outershield-Outershield71M/c3101.pdf
Yep, CFH; my brain was thinking D8N engine-torque overheating radiator issues on another thread...OP or myself haven't asked how much PSI should the shielding gas be? Tech support...where did you come up with 20-25 CFH for 71M per OP's post #71 references? Per Lincoln's pdf spec is: Flow Rate is 40-50CFH Hobart's Excel-Arc 71 flow rate is 35-50CFH https://www.hobartbrothers.com/uploads/pdf/datasheets/FabCO_Excel_Arc71.pdf EASB's 7100 Ultra no flow rate given https://mam.esab.com:8443/assets/1/...E98A512E1F1D4/237-en_US-FactSheet_Main-01.pdf I cross reference different manufactures' procedure spec's for similar wires. Carry 71M, Excel-Arc71 spools in the service truck for different wire feeders and jobs. 40-50CFM @ max recommend gas flow. Using lower gas flow rate helps prevent sucking atmospheric nitrogen into the molten weld puddle AND simply wasting gas to increase jobbers', retailers' profits. 71M coupons pass x-ray (Miller Electric, Rancho Cucamonga, Calif) using 25-35CFH 75/25%...i received structural engineering's prints that did not spec ASW or ASME codes, just 1/4" leg on fillet welds. Shop fab was easy and certified. Field erection, the cert welding inspector was okay with changing from 1/8"-5/32" 7018 but wanted certs for using 71M to cover his ***. Easy to increase weld strength by 100% by running one pass on the ID's of column connectors. Owner-engineering always spec 'as built'; allows on the fly design changes-adjustments.
True, but aren't most of them fixed psi? I will say that the flowmeter regulators I have do not have low pressure gages, and appear to not be adjustable. I believe they state 50 psi on the side. However, I do have a more traditional regulator with the LP gage, but no flow meter. I think it is the one that actually came with my welder. As you suggested Stan, i dropped my voltage back a notch and tried some passes. Spatter/noise increased. I tried more/less wire with no improvement, so back to the higher setting (6) for me. My dad was there sharpening some knives and commented on how quiet it was. I did get a little worm hole defect in there somewhere, but it was at the very top of my test and close to my fume pickup, so perhaps it was effecting the shield gas a little. I also dropped my flow down a little - so about 30 now, and i pulled my nozzle off just a little - tip is flush with the nozzle fully seated. Breakfast finished, now off to start the preheat.
My bad on the gas flow. Was thinking of a different wire where too a high a gas flow can cause turbulence. A lot of shops are starting to use the gas flow meters right at the nozzle because some wires are real finnicky with gas flow. Steve, make sure you have the wire running properly before you jump right in on your repair. Don't have the fume extractor so close it sucks your shielding gas away. Did you get some line up pins made and have bracing in place to keep the holes as close as possible? Flowmeters have preset pressure, 50 PSI is common but the outlet should be CFH.
Just wondering how your repair is going?
Thanks for asking. Before I started welding, I could freely rotate and remove the pin on the arm I was welding on. The other pin was not quite so free. As I was welding up the boom, I kept my eye on it. In the end, it was tighter, but I could still move it around with a 12 oz hammer. I also started with a run out tab. I kept my eye on the preheat with a little water - just to where it sizzled. I would weld 1 or 2 passes on one side, then the other. Then hit both with the needle scaler. And then repeat. Grinding occasionally between the welds to keep a constant grove. I put some extra passes on to allow me to grind it smooth before I finished. The clamps here are just for me to rest my arm on, and to support the blanket during preheat. Hard to see, but the come along is still there holding the "twist" alignment. After all of that, I did one last preheat and wrapped the boom with the blanket to allow it to cool slowly. So, after that, I leveled the frame of the loader with screw jacks and went to work on the lower boom. Placing a level across the bosses in the arms(on the right side of this photo), The boom was also level as I expected. So, I held the bushings in place on the bucket using a piece of shaft. I moved that assembly into position and checked the bucket for level 1st. It was out a little, so I raised one side a little. I put a bungee strap on to hold everything tight to the loader boom and started measuring. I centered the bucket from the dog bone bosses. Then I centered the boom bushings in those bosses. Not that I wanted to do anything about it, I did check the shaft for level and it was within the lines. Lastly, I checked from the front of the rear end housing at each wheel unit back to the center line of the lower pins. They where within 1/4", which was very surprising to me, and good enough. So I put some tacks on it and removed the bucket.
Then I braced the bushings and tweaked them a little to get the shaft to slide freely between them, and started welding. I was not having a lot of luck keeping my torch angle right while welding around the bushings, so they lack some cosmetically, but I think they are sound. I kept moving the shaft while welding and sort of moving from place to place on the bushings. I did preheat here also like I did on the boom. In the end, I could still slide the shaft between the bushings. Certainly unconventional, but I think it worked ok. Best of all - on budget!. lol The fab shop hasn't gotten to my plates yet, so nothing new on the quick attach plate.
Hopefully it works.
Reread your post. A $5 or $6 Tempilstick is a way better way to tell what temp the steel is than seeing if water sizzles on it. Although peening wouldn't make much difference in this case, it has to be done when the weld bead is finished but not red hot. Doing it after that weld has cooled a bunch defeats the purpose. I guess the test will be when you start using the loader.
Should work okay if the shaft still slides after all welding. Cat's guys do not peen or pre-heat when welding in pre-finished bushings using a mandrel-alignment shaft. Only pre-heat required would be to drive out any surface moisture prior to welding; recommended when temps are below 70degs. I see moisture draw out @ 100degs. Track Roller Frame stress crack repair with post weld annealing immediately after finishing welding.
Steve, How is you Loader Arm project progressing? Photos of L&H Industrial 'Made in USA' replacement loader arms for the world's largest wheel loaders.
Nice. Letourneau, I assume. Only saw one of them at the mining show in Vages. The biggest we had was 992G and D11N. We did frame up rebuilds occasionally. Way back when we purchased the very 1st production D10, but that was before my time. Lol Anyway, almost finished with the quick attach adapter.
IMO, welding inspector using AWS code guidelines for commercial quality welds (allows XX defects) would have you doing lots of re-work. Weld joining the 2 square tubes together probably resulted will have heavy slag @ the root, that is 1 reason to avoid using square tubing; i.e. the extra cost to correctly perform the welds. Requires using smaller diffuser size (diameter) to keep tip-to-work distance correct. Better to us 1 rectangular tube instead of 2 square tubes IMO. Steve, keep posting with updates.
Yea, Your right about that for sure. I thought the additional steel in the pair of square tubes would result in a more rigid assembly than a single rectanglular tube. I had not considered the slag in the root. These are 1/4 wall, so the radius is larger than something like a 1/8 wall. You probably noticed there are several places that the edges of my welds where either slightly undercut, or bulged in the middle. I could have ground them out and re welded, but access is tight for grinding. Or, i could do another pass or two to even things out, but that could cause my brackets to draw. I did get my die grinder out in a few places. I think this is plenty strong for it's intended use, so i just left well enough alone. If this was for a paying customer, things would likely be different. Thanks for the interest.
I'd be concerned about the welds on the loader arm based on some of the welds I see in your pictures. At the top of the vertical bracket in the 1st pic. of your quick-attach it looks like the weld missed 80% on the one side. Generally Dual-Shield has no problem getting fusion at the edges and leaves a fairly flat bead on fillet welds. Now that I see the size of the loader, the quick attach looks a little overkill. Putting it to work will let you if your welding is sound enough but if your welds wouldn't be good enough for a paying customer, why are they acceptable to you? I'm usually more critical on my own stuff so it looks like I have some idea what I'm doing. Seeing some ropey beads and porosity am wondering if maybe you didn't use enough of a pull angle to keep the slag behind the puddle or maybe the wire stick out wasn't correct?
You're right. And in all honestness, that particular weld does stick out to me also as the worst one. Maybe I will fix it. Probably a combination of things. When I welded the boom, pass after pass where mostly the same, so I was able to keep some consistency. Plus, I did grind out anything that looked iffy. With this attachment, the weld positions where much more varied. Even though I spent most of the day on it, I guess I got lazy at times with the thought that it is likely overbuilt and just an "attachment". I will agree my stickout and drag angle where not ideal at times. That comes with more practice.
The single biggest reason for most of this work. Maybe even more so than a functioning bucket.
No doubt a good set of forks are the handiest thing