Seems 134A is to phase out, R1234YF will be the Next on the market, changes gauges and connector fittings Again as well refrigerant oil, none of in service Compressors or Expansion valving will be compatible. Caution to this stuff is Primarily "Denatured LP Gas": Propane, so is Flammable, just at a different rate than straight Propane.
20+ years for R134A. I wondered how long before there was something new I’ve not had any a/c issues for years—touch wood. I’m pretty sure I won’t be investing in any more a/c tools at my age
Even worse is the R32 or R454b for Home systems, NONE of the existing systems are compatible with the stuff, so any core failures and a lack of reclaimed 410 will be required to replace an entire system regardless is relatively recent or functional save that leak. That from the HVAC guys that installed our now 10 year old GSHP that has 410a in it. Uncertainty hovers around the current Mini Split systems.
What a deal i wonder how long before it takes effect ? I was given some reclaimer stuff i need to get working . I reclaimed some 134a the other day.
Pretty sure R1234YF has been around for a while now. A couple years anyways.
I have heard that 1234 is pretty much 1:1 compatible with 134, basically no changes to hard parts. However I am not sure about the oil.
Yep. Wife and I will have to deal with this in our current home. When the system craps out we're looking at $10K to replace. Planning on keeping the house as a rental once we build or move.
Jan 1 2025
Sadly have to replace Rec Drier and expansion system with Compressor and oil to use 1234yf, not compatible with 134a system components. It is Propane Based. Takes special machine to recover and to charge with a different fitting style. First available 2015, in use in a few cars 2021, not currently in HE Trucks or a vast variety of autos. And Yes, considered Flammable.
The patent on R134a is probably about to expire soon. Too bad we can't just go back to Freon!
Never proved produced the Ozone hole that does not go away, blame all and any other component down to Musk Starlink and reentering defunct satellites as to causing it. Now claiming it presents a 100 Year Global Warming Potential, sad and defined stupid true. Spoke to BIL as found this last part out, all the EV buses use 134a for cooling the Coolant that surrounds the batteries in them, CANNOT use 1234yf or any other flammable refrigerant. Manufacturer said NO. Wonder if Musks EVs use this stuff?
Natural gas works well in a R134A system. I bought a keg from Envirosafe several years ago and have it in multiple vehicles and equipment. The biggest problem with it is knowing how much to put in a system. It’s just a guess. The fact that it’s flammable/explosive has never really bothered me. I think I paid $110 for the 30 pound keg when I bought it.
Been around for over 10 years, started being used in cars in 2013. Will be all that cars have by the next year or two.
Was used starting in 2013 in some Cadillacs.
BIL called back His buds still at the Metro garage stated are using R744 or R714(?), CO2 and NH3, memories of 1903!! Work at Lower pressures and volumes.
I remember when 134a was 110 bucks for a keg ah good old 2017 (may have been 115)
Our parts guy needed some for his '17 or '18 Chevy recently. It was about 4x the price of 134 if I'm remembering it right.
Has to change, it's all part of commerce, other wise you would be still buying the same old Kelvinator from 1952----and those didn't come with automatic ice cube maker.
But they lasted for 30 to 40 years. A new fridge may last 15 years if you are lucky!
2025 is when manufacturers will start to switch over, EPA has a drop dead date of 2028 for new machines to come with R-1224yf Figure a price of $100 per pound, $2500 for the 25 lb cylinder, can be had in smaller quantities. Oh and you will need new gauges, and new oil injector or a new shop machine. New shop machine is $13k. You do not want to cross contaminate. Still uses a PAG oil in most applications, but it’s a different formulation of additives. Some applications use special oil. Pressures are pretty close because boiling point is pretty close. You can thank DuPont and Honeywell for their fine lobbying efforts, and the idiots venting refrigerant for bringing this all around.
Wait until you see the price of r1234tf.
Farmers will still be using R12 equivilent in 2028 in their old gems from the 70s and 80s lol.
I recall reading a story a couple years ago. Audi and Volkswagen told the TÜV to go pound sand. They weren't going to use it, the risk to occupants and first responders outweighed any environmental benefits. Don't know if they changed their position, but that's what I remembered reading. Their tests showed how the flash gasses didn't mix well with the high heat of turbo 4 banger exhaust and plastic underhood components.
This is the issue I'm starting to notice with everything "environmentally friendly" - it poses a greater risk to our safety/health than what we were already using. Just like that new brake clean we have to use here now once old stock is used up.
Just like DEF in sealed plastic jugs that are not reusable, and made with plastic that isn't readily recyclable.
I remember ASE, MACS and the OEMs talking about the dangers of flammable refrigerants. Warning us not to use replacement refrigerants. Today, flammable refrigerants are applauded. Whatever it takes to save the world. When was the last time you even heard anything about the ozone hole? Which was a farce, anyways. Oh’ yeah. R134 saved the ozone layer, along with the Montreal Protocol. It’s all so tiring. Ask a Zoomer about the ozone hole and they won’t even know what you are talking about. Because now, we have to worry about cow farts spewing methane.
I remember when R12 was hitting $35-40/lb. Hillbillies was pumping flammable in OTR trucks. Terrible consequences, when recovered and leak testing. Explosions etc. That's where the need for refrigerant identifiers came from.
I'm a younger guy but I remember them telling us we're screwed because of the ozone hole. Seems like they make a new boogeyman every decade. Like I've said before, I'm 100% all for making the world cleaner but we're just going backwards lately it seems.
My thermodynamics professor taught us that propane will work quite well as a refrigerant, but don't do it - EVER, because flammable refrigerants are illegal in the US. If you have a leak, you'll blow up buildings and/or burn people alive. Point blank - any engineer who stamps a flammable refrigerant design in the US will get jail time. Fast-forward - apparently the proper kickbacks were paid to the correct lawmakers & industry regulators, and now we've got flammable refrigerants being used in the US... Yes, R1234YF will ignite if sprayed onto a hot exhaust manifold. Consider that we've got impact-switches to turn off electric fuel pumps, and fuses to cut electrical shorts before wires turn red hot - but if you bust an AC line under the hood, let's hope you can get out of the car before you burn. . . Additionally, R1234YF is a crappy refrigerant. So crappy that an IHX (internal heat exchanger) must be incorporated. More specifically, a new car with R1234YF works moderately well at freeway speeds. Sitting in traffic however, you'll think the AC needs to be recharged. If you are mechanically inclined (which the vast majority of the folks on these boards are) - it would be beneficial to retrofit a R134A universal system onto a newer R1234YF vehicle. Unfortunately in the not-too-distant future it will be easier to buy cocaine than cans of R134A (it's already banned in Washington State for sale to private citizens). One last tid-bit. For comparison of environmental damage - R12 does 1000 units of damage. R134A does 40 units of damage. R1234YF does 12 units of damage, but R1234YF can also burn your family alive in a car crash. Because if we can save just one ozone molecule, your life will be worth it. Pay no attention to the fact that ozone generates naturally from electric fields in our atmosphere.
All the enviro damage is estimates, no science to support just mathematic formulas against breakdown rates. That noted the facts remain Asian consumers with African and many S. American still manufacture or end use R12&22, Chinese and Russian equipment for cold storage or refrigeration is still 12&22. Only the Idiot West put up with the changes and those other nations reap the whirlwind financially producing it. Mexico Plants still produce 12&22 where cannot ship across the N line but can send South. That from a Dupont chemist that came to work at Wife’s facility here. Are being Duped. The Ozone Hole was noted in that CFC ‘Decomposition’ consumed ozone, yet the ones reporting that failed to accept the chemical breakdown of the stuff was reducing volumes of it. Argued had a 100 year life yet that exhausted in less than 20 after stopped using in The Western Nations with the others still ramping up. HFCs and other points are being guessed at since western CFCs were replaced while eastern nations still use it to mass volumes.
So are the big commercial systems going to have to switch also? What a boom for the HVAC guys. Thanks for bringing this up DMiller, I had heard rumblings of this in the wind, I'll ask the HVAC guys I work with what they are thinking this is going to do. I know about a year or two back, they had a small efficiency change, and since then, a lot of reliability has gone out the window. They had to make the fan motors and everything lighter again, and its been a struggle. I find us helping change out a lot of 5 year old units, where we used to only change out 20-30 year old units.
Stationary HVAC is changing as well. Not sure about the commercial side but residential currently uses R-410a and is changing to something else. What, I don’t know off the top of my head. I just know my $8000 R-410a unit will last 10-15 years instead of 30 like an R-22 unit would so that’s great
Our 3 year old HVAC system at the house, has already lost the main house fan once, and had another trip from the repairman.
R32 or Blended in to make R454b is the replacement for 410a, HOWEVER, Pressures are seriously INSANE, is Propane based and also seriously Flammable under High Pressure Discharge. Blower Motors are NOT designed as Explosive Atmosphere Resistant as done in Paint Booths. Can see a great deal of Insurers filing Suit against the enforcement of these refrigerants.
R410A already requires high operating pressures, resulting in appreciable wear & tear on the compressor. The R410A molecule itself is leak-friendly. It will dump the entire system through a miniscule soft-goods leak that would otherwise seal against other refrigerants. DMiller is correct. High-population nations around the world are still actively consuming vast quantities of R12 - which is bar-none the best refrigerant man ever invented. I personally would like to see R12 sales banned to some of these nations, in exchange for permitting Americans use R12 again. Our taking the high-road crap needs to stop. It's self-destructive and is lowering our quality of life.
The Chinese Electronics Production facilities DUMP R12 atmospherically as use it for a Cleaning Solvent on Electronics Chip Boards. Tractor Trailer size LOADS of it. So, if that made the Ozone Hole it should be affecting Ozone Everywhere not just Antarctica.
As a smoker, I won't be converting ****. Ill just stop doing ac work.
What better way to leak test.
Crazy. 10yrs ago I came across a bloke who ran straight propane in AC systems on his earthmoving gear. Cheap as chips and easily available without any problems.
New HVAC equipment with the replacement refrigerant for R410 is going up 33-50% according to the distributor that I buy equipment from. The equipment will have refrigerant detectors as the new refrigerant will be flammable. Won't be long and we will not be able to buy a unit with a PSC motor. It will all be ECM$$$$. 410 can't be produced after 12/31/24 and is going to go way up. I am stocking up on 410 and going to set several HVAC systems in storage. I don't want any of the "new" crap on my buildings. Just as a blast from the past I still have several 12oz cans of R12. If memory serves correctly I think I paid .79 per can at HiLo auto parts. They would have pallets of it on the floor.
Funny thread---Our 1965 Seaburg AirEase. Had to replace one fan motor & a capacitor since we moved in-in 1997. In 100* plus it still keeps the house cool at 72*. Plus it's a side discharge---you know the industry is going back to those because it collects less debris. I think it's cost us maybe $500 to keep going. But it helps if you talk to your air conditioner when you pass by and give it a attaboy. *
I don’t know why everyone is so scared of flammable refrigerants. Plenty of natural gas powered vehicles running up and down the road. Put 2 to 3 pounds in an A/C and everyone loses their minds. I’m more scared of lighting my propane barbecue grill than the natural gas in my A/C systems. Does anyone know what happens to R-12 when exposed to a flame?
Phosgene gas
Was cheap and a favorite in WWI trench warfare, choking gas.
I was warned about this but guys used to use the vacuum from there engine to vac down there ac . So it was burnt in the engine . I was told the exhaust could kill you.
That was taught to us in Trade School as to tracing leaks back in 1975. Phosgene, IE Mustard Gas, WWI trench warfare nasty.
Not buying CNG Safety: Violent Vehicle Fire Explosion Causes Severe Injuries to LAFD Firefighters | Los Angeles Fire Department Firefighters responded to a semi truck on fire in Wilmington, which sent nine firefighters to the hospital after a compressed natural gas (CNG) tank exploded. lafd.org FIREFIGHTER NEAR MISS Auto Fire with Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Fuel Tank Explosion - SlideServe FIREFIGHTER NEAR MISS Auto Fire with Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Fuel Tank Explosion . Prepared By Operations Division April 2, 2007. Arson: Incident #26564 . Dispatch 0230 hours for car fire (E10) www.slideserve.com Or using Propane in a Automotive System under serious compression and heating.
I'm sure the tiny amount of vapor left in the AC system at atmospheric pressure before vacuuming led to an insignificant amount of phosgene, most times anyway. Also if you are vacuuming the system it means you probably had it open which means you are more likely vacuuming air anyway. But I never heard this trick before anyway, I'll keep it in mind for when the next great depression hits, well I suppose we won't care about auto AC then anyway.
I fished on a 73' boat with the wheelhouse and engine room aft. A refrigerant line in the engine room failed at sea so we turned the boat into the wind, set the autopilot and stood around on the bow for a while until the the 8-71 stopped blowing white smoke. Then hightailed it for home before the fish thawed out. We made it.
I suppose that's true---there is probably more methane lurking in most peoples lower colon that could cause personal injury by standing too close to the BBQ and passing a jalapeno laced beer fart during the Saturday afternoon bratwurst & sauerkraut extravaganza. Won't be no more BBQ's with a depression except for the occasional cooking of a rat.