I am rebuilding my 3406B, and needing a new head. I'm using Interstate McBee parts, but I am not sure if they offer a head yet; haven't researched them close enough yet. Has anyone ever dealt with American Crane & Tractor in Kansas City and used their aftermarket Italian replacement heads for a Cat engine here? I am hearing that they are the only ones that Cat accepts for a core...is that fact or fiction? Thanks.
I have used AC&T parts. Some you run away from, some you use. The machining and metal hardness/casting quality is sub par. My opinion, I would never use any parts inside that far inside anymore that were not from the OEM or major manufacturer like Clevite, Mahle etc. As far as the head the local cat house uses and sells to you diesel cast welding in Blaine mn. This is a wonderful option.
You don't want to do it again like Doyle said --OEM. You want it reliable for OTR. Whats wrong with the head? Rebuild that one with Cat valves, springs, valve locks & guides. Have it pressure tested and decked, what shape is the intermediate block plate in? Change those lifter clips while your in there
Lifter clips MUST DO. Have seen many blocks wrecked because of them. The design has been updated.
My brother bought an aftermarket head for a D333 because his was cracked. I tried to get him to send his head out and have it furnace welded. He wanted new. He bought the head and installed it. The engine had a dead cylinder. When the engine warmed up, coolant would bubble right out of the casting behind cylinder 6. There was so much porosity in the casting that it could not hold pressure. I guess they never tested it before they shipped it out. When he pulled the head there was a 1/8 NPT pipe plug wedged under one of the valves. He never did anything with pipe plugs, so it must have been in there from the factory. He went back to the dealer and exchanged it for another new head. The second one seemed to work just fine. Personally, I'd rather spend MORE to fix an OEM head than to buy a suspect aftermarket part. It's very rare for a head to be so damaged that it cannot be rebuilt. Cracks can be welded. Bearing journals can be built up. Deck height can be built up. Seats and valves can be replaced.
The head's junk...cracked. I don't have a problem with aftermarket...if you can prove that Cat manufactures every single little thing in their own facility, I'll buy it all from them. I'm confident that's not even close to being the case. Case in point: Cat "Classic"....
I wouldn't hesitate about having your oem casting furnace welded and redone from the bottom up. http://www.dieselcastwelding.com/ Nothing like buying a clone for $100 cheaper than a loaded oem, putting it on and in to only find out that really crucial bolt hole is not drilled and now ***.
Besides that is a really nice A model you own
Thanks. It'd be nicer if it was running though, LOL. I realize that everybody has their own opinions, and I respect that for sure. But if people were to go by everybody else's opinions, we'd be doomed, lol. I like to see and hear other's opinions and come to my own after some thought. So I did as of yesterday. Maybe having a head furnace welded and repaired is good to some, but in doing my due diligence and researching the alternatives for a head, I came to this conclusion; Cat sells REMAN heads. Not new, reman. They're $3,400.00 and they've been repaired, resurfaced, etc. Never know what you're gonna get with that. Several knock-off's out there that try to mimmick the quality of an OEM, but very few (if not only ONE) I've come across so far after about 8 hours of digging yesterday has a warranty even better that Cat's. (And believe me, I've never had much luck with a Cat warranty personally.) I've spoken to American Crane & Tractor, they seem have a good product and the only one that Cat will accept for a core as someone else here stated earlier. But they offer 6 months parts only. These are "fully loaded" heads, ready to drop on. Not bad... My best choice I feel is a brand new head from HHP in Michigan. First of all, the sales rep I was talking to was a good, straight-forward guy to me, and I liked the discussion. They sell this fully loaded head delivered to my doorstep for $2,298.00...on top of that they have a ONE YEAR warranty; the 1st 6 months on parts AND labor, the last 6 months on parts only. I find that pretty hard to beat myself. In asking them if they've ever had much problem with their product, the answer was, "once we had a bad batch of valve keepers that caused some problems, but it was corrected and that was back in 2011." They use Interstate McBee parts on the heads, which makes me feel good too. A.C.& T. used some off brand that I am not familiar with in their head assemblies, so that in and of itself is a concern to me. It isn't about trying to save or shave a few dollars off anything here by any means either; it's about what I feel deep down is the right thing to do overall. Pinching pennies isn't my motive here. Having mine fixed not only will take time that I don't want to lose, but will always be in the back of my mind if I did the right thing. They might be great...but who knows. I'd rather take the gamble on a new aftermarket one from HHP knowing they'll at least give me 6 months on parts and labor, than to worry about if the guy that repaired the crack in mine did it right, and not knowing if that head came off another engine and has a gazillion miles on it, etc. is another worry I have, now that I see the last owner is a liar about the last major overhaul being one hole. So that's my perspective on all this. I don't see any sense in going with all Cat stuff and spending $30,000.00 on an inframe when I can get this all done up myself for about $8,000.00 and know what I have, and my fingerprints are on everything. I've been the Cat route before...and I'm not impressed. It's a name that's easy to spell, that's all I see for an advantage with them. I've had many a heartache along the way with their "professional" ways despite the cost, so no sense in diving back into all the unnecessary arguments with service writers and warranty people over a losing battle. They never admit they're wrong.
Have you contacted a machine shop for a quote to fix your head? The reman head is great if you are in a hurry. If I have time, I'd rather fix the original head. You can control what replacement parts are installed and there is no question about compatibility. Personally, I'd be really skeptical of a new cylinder head that somehow costs $500 less than an aftermarket reman, and $1200 less than an OEM reman. But, it's not my choice to make.
Lowboy, did you find the reason for the Over-heat on the engine?? it looks to be cooked up well, on engine parts non O.M. I have found the I.P.D. parts to be very good with first class back up if you need it, in the U.K. its possible to buy a Genuine CAT C/Head full up for around £1200, there might be some water temp fitting holes not the same size but nothing an adapter union cannot fix, you would no doubt seen lots of comments on the lifter clips as they are a well known trouble area with everything Camshaft needing a good look at, I find the CAT warranty is of little merit when you are inside an engine as an outsider to the CAT Shop, the lifter clips are best described as Total Pants and could not be more crap than they are, the clips have undergone a few revisions I only wish they would stop this type of fitment, CAT also love to put bits of plastic both ends of a piston pin you have to ask what FOOL thought of that trick? anyhow best of luck sorting your 3406 and locating the lack of coolant to make those pistons dig their heels in like they have. tctractors
I can relate to your concern on something costing less than an OEM part, but my opinion is this; My head I found has 8 cracks in it...between the exhaust valves and one is between exhaust valve and a nozzle. I honestly would not be really comfy buying a reman'd head that was this badly damaged and had been "fixed", as opposed to buying a brand new one fully loaded from a reputable source, that gives me a better warranty than Cat themselves, and would probably more than likely stand behind that warranty better than Cat ever would. Cat's always argued with me about everything I ever brought to the warranty table. I had much better luck with Cummins than Cat when it comes to warranties. If I were to drop this head off at a machine shop, chances are they'd say there's nothing they can do with it around here anyway. And if they could...I'll bet I'd have an easy $1,500.00 into the repair that I wouldn't be able to sleep at night over. For $800.00 more than that, they'll deliver that new HHP head to my garage door apron. HHP in Coleman, MIchigan are the one's I am buying the head from. They are decent to deal with and talk to, and again...they use quality Interstate McBee parts that some people have a problem with, but I don't personally. That's exactly what I'm using for the entire rest of the job too. Some guys have had bad experiences with aftermarket, me...I always seemed to win the battle and have money left with aftermarket. Just me. If I were running a shop I'd probably specify all OEM parts, of course. But this is about doing this job as efficiently as possible, while controlling what goes on along the way. Some use Interstate Mcbee, some IPD, some Clevite, some Reliance...there's a slew of them out there. Name the right one...it's not possible. Neither is a genuine Cat part. My buddy owns an authorized Cat repair shop and has been rebuilding Cat's for 30 years every day of his life. He flat out refuses to use Cat Reman injectors and other certain parts they offer reman for anymore, due to constant comebacks. He's done a LOT of engines in his day, and anything he says I usually can rely on when it come to a Cat. He only buys new injectors now and refuses to offer reman. I guess to sum it all up, life's a gamble no matter what you do, right?
I found 8 cracks in the head tctractors...so the chances of me ever buying a reman head is nill. I couldn't sleep thinking they fixed a head like the one I have here, if they even would as bad of shape as it's in. I will probably never know the real reason this happened. I innocently had a P&B replaced and replaced the air compressor one Friday by a reputable shop. The next day, I am experiencing issues with sporadic/intermittent heat and coolant temp cycling up to 200*F and immediately dropping to 185*F in one second intervals, and it stayed that way for 3-4 days until it finally developed that knock that made me shut her down. Why was it running 100% perfect the day before I had this little bit of work done? Probably never know. Coincidence maybe. I concluded that from the combustion entering the coolant system in so many places that it was making steam in the rear end of the engine, but the coolant temp. probe (manual gauge and brand new 6 months ago,) was always submerged, so it never showed any sign of overheating. The radiator although would bubble over occasionally was always FULL, so it never ran out of anti freeze but managed to cook #5 hole to the point of scoring and liner packings are fried. It had a severe case of air lock or steam presence as it was suspected from the first day I noticed this after doing the air compressor, so in another shop (Caterpillar dealer,) I replaced the thermostat and water pump. That supposedly solved the intermittent heat issue for 24 hours, until I got 900 miles west of there and lost the heat completely in Detroit, Michigan the following day. That's when it got mysterious. Had heat only while in motion (higher RPM's, more flow evidently,) but blew freezing cold air at idle. So as it stands, I don't know exactly what caused the head to be in such rough shape, I do everything old school and right. I never shut down hot; always idle 3-5 minutes before shutdown, I never, ever touch the fuel upon starting even in summer...I wait for oil pressure to go down and water temp to go up, never use a Jake until the oil temp is at operating temp...change oil at 10k miles, pull samples and read them religiously (which makes me think that's not even worth it anymore with all this that went on and never showed a single sign,) and just do everything possible to maintain everything. Then you have the other type; they stomp their foot to the floor when they start them up cold, they never change the oil, no grease, just run them against the governor all day and they last forever. Go figure, LOL. To answer you in relation to the lifter clips, etc...yes. I am changing the lifter clips and the piston coolers as I found one was an upgraded one and the other 5 were old style. I know they had several upgrades to them over the years too. All new head and rod bolts, rebush and balance the rods. Trying to do it right, it's all my fingerprints and money going into this thing so I'd like to see it last. Luckily the cam and crank are both very healthy looking...a real plus. Don't worry though; I won't go to Harbor Freight for the Head and rod bolts...I actually will buy them from Cat, LOL.
The Cylinder Head I spoke about is not Re-Man but brand fire new, something has failed or blocked in your cooling system to destroy your engine like this, you might want to start at the front thing that holds the fluid and follow things back, the resent work done will need checking as somehow its getting no/ low water flow or air locks? tctractors
Yea, but "Classic" ain't CAT.
That's what I was getting at.
Good luck with those interstate mcbee parts. Company I do a lot of work for started using IB rebuild kits on there g342 and g3306 cat engines. It didn’t work out. Longest they got was 7 months run time, where they would generally get 3-5 yrs on cat parts. And I finally refused to install anymore of there heads with IB parts.. was only getting 1-2 months out of them. These are all natural gas engines, running 24/7, so your luck might be different
Everybody's got their own opinion on that. I can't stand going to Cat and buying their hyper-inflated priced parts when I can get them from I.McBee for a 1/3 the cost myself. I have had good luck with I.McBee in the past, along with several of my guys that do nothing but engine overhaul work. It's a gamble no matter what you do. I've heard horror stories of guys using all genuine, certified, bonafied Cat parts too that have had premature failures, so you never know. I do know however, is if an authorized cat shop doesn't do the work and something fails with their parts...you can go pound sand because they will bend over backwards to blame the installer and not want to stand behind anything. That's a pretty familiar scene. At least I.McBee will listen and come to terms when their stuff has a problem. A brand new head (not reman like Cat only sells,) with I.McBee parts is $1,500.00 less and has a better warranty than Cat offers, so it's pretty tough to be loyal at that rate. When Cat makes a head that won't crack, I'll be a loyalist too. I'm sure your application has something to do with longevity issues as well. Propane powered engines lack the lubricity that diesel fuel provides (when ULSD is treated properly that is, as I use additives year-round to ensure lubricity in these older engines,) I've been inside several gasoline-to-propane converted engines that had all burnt/cracked valves and just appeared to be dry from excessive heat, so I have reservations about propane power myself. That was a few years ago now...maybe they've developed since then. They're ALL great... (when they're running.)
I don’t blame you one bit for using aftermarket.. cat has gone nuts on prices, I just hope you have better luck with the IB parts, then what Ive seen on natural gas engines. I have used a lot of IPD parts with decent results, actually I’ve used most every brand at one time or another on the natural gas engines.. just had the worst luck with IB.
I agree, Cat has gone off the deep end on their parts pricing, forcing people to find an alternative aftermarket source unfortunately. I finally got ALL my parts yesterday, and we cut the counterbores .032 for shims. I have to make a run to Cat this morning unfortunately because I went last week to get 4 head bolts/studs for the rocker arm assembly/Jake brake pedestals, and they gave me the wrong ones, so I have to make the 1.75 hr trip back over to exchange these for the right ones today so I can carry on with the reassembly finally. The guy that came to cut the bores yesterday is a 50 yr. engine building veteran that is very precise, the way I like it with my OCD. He even opened every box and mic'd every single liner, head gasket and spacer plate to ensure there wasn't any inconsistencies in anything, which gave me some peace of mind as well. Being he lives 2 hours east of me here, he didn't want any issues that would make him have to come back over to make things right. I ran the cutting tool myself along with his guidance, cutting .005 each pass, cleaning and checking, then another .005, and so on until we were dead-on .032 each hole. The first 2 holes took what seemed like forever, until we decided to change the cutting bit. After lunch and a new bit, that thing was making chips like nobody's business, and we were able to get the other 4 holes done in the same amount of time that the first 2 took us to do. Should be able to make some smoke hopefully by this coming weekend if everything goes according to plan. I hope that smoke lasts for years to come, lol.
i bought one of those itialian made ones i would suggest taking it straight to the head shop have deck checked and do a valve job.i installed it and thought it was a timing issue then work started and this machine set past the warranty. after much head scratching and thinking the timing was a 180 out. the valves where not seating properly and i kept looking past it since it was a brand new head. so after the head went thru the shop all good now,talked to several guys who installed these and no problems i just happened to get one that the valve guy on the line had a bad night.i also installed aftermarket injectors in this b model cat after 40 hrs run time i had two injector failures.i installed all new cats for 60 bucks a piece more, and it was a whole different engine. so after much help from the HEF crew, and being a tightass,and having to do several steps twice,i am now a better mechanic then i once was.
I didn't go with the Italian head, I went with HHP (Highway & Heavy Parts) out of Coleman, Michigan. We studied it before we put it on and it all appears to be 100%. Everything bolted up to it perfectly. It's all together, and today I think I'll finally have it running. I bought all brand new internal parts, most from HHP except for the piston coolers from Cat, which after a 4 hour round trip there and back upon opening the bags they came in, discovered they don't sell the bolts to hold them in with them; so back to Cat for 6 bolts. Later I found I could have bought those through HHP as well. New oil pump, 6 new Interstate McBee injectors/nozzles from HHP, pretty much everything I could think of came from the people at HHP. Very helpful, knowledgeable and 1/3rd the price. They have a very laid back attitude about warranty as well, so if anything is awry, I have a good feeling that they'll be easy to work with as opposed to Cat. The operations manager from HHP called me to thank me for the recent "activity" and we chatted for quite a while. He was very informative about where OEM parts come from these days, and revealed a few details that made me feel quite at ease with my decision to go aftermarket. I admitted to him that I was a little uneasy about not going with a Cat reman head at first, but when I thought about the fact that those recon heads are only as good as the guy or machine repairing them, I was more comfortable knowing from him that they buy from the same exact manufacturers that all the OEM's do, and the biggest revelation was, he explained that everybody is always so adamant about buying Cat liners because they're "better". Well, come to find out that there are only TWO manufacturers of cylinder liners in the WORLD, and they are both in CHINA. It might say CAT on them, but they come from either one of the two places in China that makes them for everybody else. It's all about the SPECS that the manufacturer has to build to; they must comply with the spec's per the customer, so different brands offer different quality. I had one guy say "yeah, but the quality of the steel in China isn't as good"...well, tell that to Cat then. Die-Hard Cat guys think they're the best...but that information just broke the myth. It's like anything else, opinions. There's a repair shop down the road here that does many, many rebuilds in trucks, loaders, equipment and uses nothing but Interstate McBee in all his rebuilds, never has any problems with the parts.
Boy does that burn my hide. It's easy to find examples of the brand name stamped on one side and "Made in China" on the other (the paddle latches on my service truck & DC reversing solenoids recent examples for me). If paying a big premium for "Acme, Inc" branded writes the paycheck for factory workers here and is a superior quality I'm more than willing to do that but the thought of just boosting the stock price and CEO's pay and filling the liquor cabinet on the corporate jet with booze I can't afford just makes my blood boil. Somewhere I read that there's a factory making hydraulic fittings that almost literally puts some in a Big Brand A box, some in a Big Brand B box, and some in an unbranded box.
I'm sorry, but that is not true. I've personally been in a local facility that casts and machines cylinder liners for Cat engines. I believe they also machine some in house but I'm not sure about the castings. There are several large scale manufacturers of cylinder liners here in the US such as Melling, Mahle, Federal Mogul, etc. Maybe he was talking about just the 3406 mechanical liners, in which case maybe they do all come from China. I don't know. I know all Cat ring gears come from India. I used to work in a foundry that installed them on Cat torque converter bowls.
My brother in law is a purchasing guy for a us company. I think he goes to china a couple times a year. He always says the specs are important, but not nearly as important as the quality control. You can give them all the specs you want, but you need to be paying QC separately, and checking the stuff when it gets here, or they will ship you whatever they can get by with. They have no issues with paying off quality control.
i will have to check out HHP on my next rebuild,keep us posted on how everything breaks in on the new rebuild.my guy that works on the heads told me that on a cat reman head its not totally replaced, any parts that are within spec, stays on head, so your not getting all new parts. not sure i like that for how much you have to give for them. when it comes to just surface wear aftermarket parts a guy just needs to check around. i thought i had a great price on aftermarket pins and bushings. always checking against cat and deere parts,after buying a lingkbelt hoe i thought i would call rexco the lingkbelt dealer just to see how much my tightass was saving. well they beat the aftermarket guy and i will be buying from them.
crummy i just bought some aftermarket 80mm bushing they must of messed up, it had the john deere wrapper on it inside.so i would say its all true
I failed to mention that about QC, and you're 100% correct about that. You can cry specs all you want, at the end of the day it is definitely all about QC and what's leaving the mfg. To elaborate on that, I ended up with a snag with this new head Sunday. I fired the engine up and it ran beautifully for 5 minutes, then developed a bad rap and I had to shut it down. Long story short, #6 exhaust valve bridge is stuck fast down with the valves open, kissing that piston with 5 minutes of run time. It bent the push rod and spit it off to the side thankfully. The bridge is jammed on the stud so bad I can't pry it off. Consulted with HHP yesterday, sent pics of that #6 bridge with a tape measure showing height of the bridge compared to another one that has valves closed, and it's plainly visible that it's stuck down, so they're getting that bridge back with the head to confirm. Either a bad line bore upon installation, or when they were lifting it on or off the assembly bench with the straps/chains, it made contact with that stud and bent it slightly. What a bummer it is taking this head back off today. It was running nicely and no leaks whatsoever. Oh well...Murphy's Law again.
Maybe he was talking specifically about 3406 liners, not sure but he's not the only one I've heard that said that. I do know most Cummins components (at least for N-14's) come from India now. It's certainly not an American market for most anything at the moment.