Forgot to get a picture on Friday, but they hav added another automatic to the fleet. The first 3 are tandem dump trucks. This one is a tractor, and it will be replacing the primary float truck. No idea of the power plant yet. New western star, day cab lift axle Interesting to see how it will work out. Ill post pictures and specs as soon as I can
All of Kienstra Concrete equipment at multiple yards are automatics, End Dump Semi, Semi truck Bulk Tank pullers, Mixers, ALL of them.
When you say automatic, are you talking auto like an Allison or AMT? I used to hate automatics, now as my knees get worse I'm starting to appreciate them more and more. The class 8 truck with a manual don't bother me too bad, but the medium-duties where you have to clutch every shift do. Especially in these hills where you are shifting hundreds of times a day. Got an Allison in my IH 4700 and really like it and I could see the appeal in a tandem dump, especially off-road. Fuel economy is noticeably less though in my experience(at least in the 1990s-2000s vintage trucks), not sure I'd want one in a semi.
Not real sure what an AMT is. The tandems all have f n r on the dash. Put your foot on the brake. Push the yellow button, and select f for go and r for racing. The tractor, I'm not sure. I just saw it in the yard. Surprised they bought new. They will buy a new dump truck, but mostly used tractors. Word is that it was around 360 000.
AMT is Automated Manual Transmission, does not have a torque converter like a traditional automatic. Uses electronics to control the 'clutch' and shifts for you. That's about as much as I know about AMTs, never driven one or even seen inside the cab of a truck with one. AMT's are very popular in OTR trucks nowadays, not sure how they'd do in vocational use. I've never seen any around here in dump trucks, mixers, etc.
OK. As far as I'm told, an automatic is the norm these days, and a manual is optional. I know the dump trucks had automatic transmissions more readily available for purchase and a manual would have been an 18 month wait. Most of the straight trucks run an 8LL and tractors are an 18 speed. I think we have a 13 over, and a 9 speed in the mix. As I said. Most of our tractors are used, and most come from the logging industry. Those guys like their 18 speeds
What you have Cutting Edge is a DT12 AMT. The best of any AMT's. * An AMT can be programmed to do anything a Allison can and more. It's all any DOT buy's now. The days of manual are about over. The cool thing is a CDL will say automatic only on it for new drivers that tested with AMT's, which will put a kill switch on manuals.
That has started here as well. When I got my license, there was no automatic transmission endorsement. Retired mechanic here drives the fuel truck now. He has a side gig filling swimming pools. He has a s line with an automatic that he took his driver's test in, and he has sn automatic only endorsement
Well we had to do something to dumb it down for the influx of drivers on the highway that, quite frankly, shouldn't be trusted pulling a rickshaw in an empty parking lot IMO.
Only thing is--never move any truck with a AMT anymore that 300 ft slowly with driveline in. Driveline {Has to be removed for any distance with Speed}. My old company is in the process of getting one of they're rigs that was towed 30 miles with driveline inplace. It exploded the top front section and cracked the rear structure on the X15. Price of Eaton reman EEO AMT from Eaton was $17,000 plus a $7,800 core. New was close to $29,000 outright. But they only have 6 of those Eaton's the rest are DT12. * When I towed it from St Regis Mt to La Grande Ore, I didn't like the looks of what I saw. So I put two 2,500 lb rachet straps to frame under transmission. When they removed it they found it had cracked all the way around except for about 5" of bell holding it in.
Same when I took my test. It was just the class you wanted and whatever endorsements like tanker or hazmat you wanted. I got a Class A CDL with an air brake single axle 26K lb Hino hooklift with a 14K lb electric brake pintle hitch behind it. At the time that would land you a Class A CDL with restrictions other than the specialized endorsements.
Here I have a class 1E. Tractor trailer with air brakes. Class 5 is a regular car license. Class 3 is a single axle
The older drivers are grandfathered.
Like myself. Class A, only Restriction was Glasses until cataracts repaired.
Side note on mine. Original DL had corrective lenses on it. Well I had Lasik surgery several years before and never had the restriction removed. Had to get a letter from the Doc that did the surgery in order to get my CDL without the corrective lenses notation.
I carry Two Cards noting Manmade Lenses in each eye.
you drive cataract i drive rinkoln .
Amts can't stall
For launch mode--yes amts can.
That's something I'm curious about too. How does an AMT handle a situation where you want to 'pull it up on the converter' with foot on both brakes and throttle to build power, get out of a hole, etc? If it will let you do that is it just roasting the clutch? Maybe a wet clutch and can take some of that abuse? AMT's are obviously becoming the future for OTR, I'm still not sold on them for really heavy work, off-road, etc. What I wish someone made was a full powershift transmission for trucks. Think 15spd powershift like the 50-55 series Deere tractors had. 15spds all in a row, can skip gears up or down, power reverser, and 'clutch' pedal if you need it. I realize that's kind of what the AMT's are, but I want a clutch/clutch pedal and full control of the transmission at all times.
I have already addressed this before in other threads--read below. * DT12 Vocational | Detroit The Detroit® DT12® Vocational Series transmissions brings performance and durability to every job. www.demanddetroit.com
Just says 1200 rpm, there's no load so no boost.
A DD13, 15, & 16 all produce at least 1,500 lbs torque @ 975 rpm & for DD15 & 16 engines at 1200 rpm are at 2,050 lbs torque. Those engines are producing maximum boost at 1200. The torque curve of a DD15. * https://www.velocitytruckcenters.com/s3/media/Engines/DD/DD15.pdf
I'm pretty sure we've been down this road before.
Here a class 3 license is for tandem and maybe triaxle trucks without a trailer like dump trucks or cement trucks. Class 1 is for semi's with a trailer. Can't remember what class 2 is for, bus maybe??
So are these AMT's going to replace the Allisons? Is there still an application where the conventional autos are better or are they becoming obsolete in heavy trucks? What about in the class 6-7 trucks?
Without load there will be no boost, so there will be low power. Hop in a truck and spin it up to 1200 rpm with the clutch in or neutral and see how much boost it's pulling. Now do the same in drive with a automatic to 1200 rpm and see how much boost you have. I'm sure the big dds will do just fine on launching at 1200 rpm but it is not the same, and can never been the same without a torque converter.
You really miss the point, plus you have zero data/facts posted. You are not understanding how the DT12 and DD Series were engineered to work together. And you are assuming it will not work as intended. End of discussion--I will not argue with someone who is stuck on one theory.
No they're not going to replace Allison, Eaton and Detroit both built their own to privatize sort of. Eaton had already had the Autoshift which was nothing more than a converted RT series gear box. But it didn't sell very well and was problematic, so to compete with Detroit, Eaton designed a whole new gear box with the EEO Series. And I should add Volvo/Mack also have a AMT series.
Haven't driven a Mack/Volvo AMT but I'd like to compare one similar spec'd to the '07 Mack Granite with 4560 Allison. I prefer an Allison but that's just my previous experiences.
Trouble is--no one on here has driven/experienced a AMT. When those first arrived on the scene I was very hesitant about it's ability and reliability. The County has just bought three new Macks with Mack AMT's, because they bought one as a test and drivers loved it over the old dumps they had with Allisons. The improvements over the last ten years by all manufactures is impressive. But in order to get a real idea---it has to be test driven, comparing it to a Allison without ever setting in the seat is not giving it a fair chance at any level. Take a moment and test one, I think you will give it a fair appraisal.
Maybe someone has done a comparison on you-tube?? Everything else has been posted on there. I wonder how many so called truck drivers will lose their jobs because they don't speak and fully understand English? I'd guess a good number. I'm sure there are some that are still better drivers than others that do understand English.
It has been Federal Law that US CDL drivers license holders must be able to speak and understand English. https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/enforcement/driver-qualifications-regulatory-guidance-concerning-applicability-language
I only consider youtube at 50% truthful, if that.
My vac truck is a granite with an AMT we have driven thru straight muddy snot with that thi g I am actually impressed cause we have never had to pull it out because the trans wouldn't perform We did pull it out one time in a rain storm cleaning basins because all three drive axels we spinning locked in I am getting to where I will probably be buying AMTfrom here on out in New trucks I am kinda disheartened driving and not shifting but I also don't have to adjust clutches every three months to drivers slipping them cause they think a kenworth is a Honda civic
So what's this new legislation about?
The company had some real old drivers, years wise. None of them wanted anything to do with AMT's. Now you could blast one of them out of the cab, they all like that transmission. And yes no more clutch adjustments and spun out clutch brakes.
If pulled over and can't speak fluently, it's a immediate CDL disqualification and CDL is pulled.
I drove a Crapcadia with an AMT for a bit, late 2010's model. I didn't care much for it. Not smooth, lazy acceleration and shifting. I swear I just about tore the kingpin off the trailer when I tried to ease under it. Dead stop to full send. Don't know if it was the Eaton or the DT12 but either way I though it was dogshit. JMO.
A 2010--was a Autoshift Eaton, Apple & Orange compared to 2025. 2013 was around the first year for DT12.
I've had an AMT now for about 4yrs, it's a Daimler, so believe same as Detroit. I think I've said it before, but it doesn't seem to like relatively slow dirt roads (40‐70kph), always shifting up or down when it doesn't really need to, so i just leave it in manual and shift it myself. If i have to go into bigger towns with traffic lights, much less effort to drive. Only "issue" I've had, is with an air leak i wasn't aware off (not related to gearbox, simply little low on air), it wouldn't engage any reverse gears. Not real good when you have to back into a loading ramp to unload livestock.
The data and facts you posted are simply not true and your intention to not publish correct information just points out how correct I am. Post a boost gauge, neutral or clutch in, 1200 rpm. To boost = no power. No power = no wheels spinning
It was a 2017 or 2018. Had a Detroit under the hood. Was impressed by the Jake though. I was probably around 90-100k gross and it held back and slowed very well.
So you are calling me a lire is that correct? When in launch mode with brakes holding for 3 seconds engine builds roughly 14 lbs boost @ 1200 rpm in lowest gear--that is all the boost that can be built at that rpm in any engine in low gear. But this thing about boost in a low gear situation is non-sense, if stuck and only so much traction available, all boost that can be had will do no good once traction is lost. You have obviously never driven a AMT, so you really have nothing to compare. * I think your pi--ed from a thread way back about tire contact patch and another about engine torque in a DD. Plus had the gall to pm me about a Mack 18 speed. It's why I don't answer any pm's about mechanical info anymore, people wanting to slam me then ask for free info, now no one gets any help with pm's. Your what 38 and I'm 69--I think I have a few years on you mechanically.
I have a DD15 with a DT12. On highway I love it. No more sore shoulder from rowing. I haven't got enough experience on dirt roads yet. Jumping windrows from the grader it always seems to want to shift when it needs to go. I have to learn to put it in manual rather than leave it in autoshift. I'll know a lot more this fall about how it works with a load.
No I was saying you posted incorrect information, a dyno chart of Max power when the engine will be at its least amount of power. You said previously that the dad had Mac power at 1200 rpms and now you say it will have 14 points of boost. Does this engine get Max power at 14 pounds of boost at @1200 rpm? If it does not then you have posted incorrect information by your own admission. I can brake boost my pickup right now to 20 psi, I'm sure big boy engines can do more than 14 brake boosting. I have not driven an amt and that does not matter as it does not have a torque converter, and this can never do torque converter things. I would highly guess you have never driver an automatic off road and been stuck 300 times as I have, this is why I'm am so adamant that an automatic is king off road. An automatic will keep you from getting stuck as it stalls in soft ground so you can stop and back out before getting stuck while a manual or an amt will push right though until you are stuck. Tire spin at the instant of movement is why an automatic that brake boosted will get you out, manuals have to boost and thus don't spin the tires until they have moved a bit and your at the front of the hole stuck. An automatic will spin instantly and you drive right on top of the hole and out. Dude I don't care about you nor any previous posts, you have a ton of knowledge but refuse to give it up to anyone that doesn't say the correct words, this is a harm to our community. You do you dude. I will call out automatics off road every chance I get because I have tons of experience with it and it is the best option for that service.
This is not new legislation. It has been on the books.
Gee I guess I've been told, lol. And a dude at that! I just went up or down two notches.
Maybe it was for Canada but thought it was for the US and they're pushing it harder. There are a lot of immigrant truck drivers here for sure. Not saying they are good or bad but their English is often suffering. Even in fast food restaurants it can be hard to understand what the workers are saying. I don't understand how people with noticeably poor English get put in positions to deal with customers on a regular basis, especially customer service over the phone.
Obama suspended the English proficiency requirement in 2016. Around here anyway, lots of Mexican drivers. You can usually spot the trucks from 300'. It got so the DOT wouldn't even pull them over as the drivers learned they could get away with talking Mexican and pretend not to understand anything the officer said.
Still have not been near the new unit, but it is a DD12 trans
Dt12 sorry. And a 565 detroit
DD16--should be, @ 2050 torque possibly.
Concrete yard we supply, has ALL Allisons, tractors, dumps, mixers, and ALL have had similar issue, cannot Back Up and touch brakes as the trans goes to Neutral or disengages the Rev Clutch to that extent, let off brake and SLAM into whatever were backing to albeit kingpin or loading chute stops. A Different shop has gone to AMTs, not driven one but another driver I know that has stated are the Cats-Ass as to driving.
Damn right those are, only way to go, excellent transmission for vocational.
That's a programming issue. They can work just like the automatic in your car, on the throttle and brake at the same time if you really want to, it's just checking a box in software.
What BV said. Every Allison 4500 I've owned and ran never acted that way. 3 Macks and 1 International.
Probably have the pump kicking off when stopped to save fuel so it acts like it's in neutral