I was using my Cat 248 this morning to clear snow and the oil light/beeper came on. Within a few seconds I heard a rod knock and tried to get the machine turned around and off the road, but it locked up tight a few seconds later. I'm pretty upset about this, I didn't check but I think there are just 1300+ hours on it and I've serviced it as recommended since new. I always let the machine warm up before working it hard and let it cool down before shutting it off. So are these things rebuildable or is it junk? Not what I needed at all during these tough economic times.
Dang! Did you develop a major oil leak or do you think it dropped the pump? As for rebuilding it that will really depend on what a teardown reveals. Snow removal should not be that hard on it unless you were running WOT running a blower when it decided to puke. The perkapillars have a varied success as some have had real good luck and other have gone through several remans.
The same dam thing hapened to me yesterday!! I got a naturaly asperated perkins in my JCB and about a foot from the road the dam thing stalled out on me!! I dont think the motor is done ( hope like hell it isnt) wont start at all and I caught something on the starter on fire while trying to start it. I think it is a fuel isue? It only has 750 hours too!! Steve hope you didnt loose your motor!
Hi Steve, Does you Engine have an oil cooler at the filter? If so check is it blocked as i had one lose all pressure a few months ago due to a blocked cooler, took me a while to find it! Done no damage to the engine though but you may have ben the unluckly one!
Did you buy the machine new? Have you talked with your local dealer about the issue? I wouldn't have thought you should have that kind of a problem with that few of hours.
Bought the machine new and have always serviced it per the manual. I never have run it hard and only use as much throttle as needed to do the work. It has a foot throttle, the only time I set the hand throttle is when using a driven attachment. I have used the machine extensively to blow snow which is at full throttle but there is not really a load on the engine when blowing snow. I always warm the machine 20 minutes before starting the blower. I was using the bucket when it blew, I was only a few hundred rpm above idle. I heard a high pitched "ping", like metal snapping under tension just before the oil light/beeper came on. Oil level is fine. I don't know the internals of this engine, but if I were guessing I'd say whatever drives the oil pump broke.
I'd start by pulling the oil filter and cutting it apart to see if something other than oil is in it. Next check to see if you can turn the engine by hand. If it turns OK, then pull the valve cover and see if the rockers go up and down like they should. I'd also get a hold of the dealer and start asking pointed questions about updates and problem children.
Keep us posted Steve. I have a 257b with a perkins(CAT 3024) and now you've got me worried.
I have only seen 1 or 2 but i have seen the oil pick up tube come loose and fall off. Never had any oil pump problems, they are gear driven directly off the crank. There is a relief valve on the front cover that could have failed. What happened after the oil pressure was lost? Who knows.
Steve , get ahold of your dealer. I traded off a 247B with 500 hrs that was sucking 3 qts of oil a day. Bought a new 247B2 oil sampled @ 100 hrs. antifreeze in oil, just resampled @ 150 hrs.to make sure before it goes back to Milton Cat for repairs. Anyways my salesman claims Cat has replaced these engines with up to 5-6000 hrs. on them @ no charge. Especially if you have the service records. jr
I called the dealer and he said he'd look into help for me but made no promises. The machine is 10 years old with the low hours, the last 3 years my market has taken a dump. It will be a while before I can tear into it, I've got repairs to make on my trucks first but I'll be sure to post the carnage when I do.
I'm sorry to hear about your engine. I must admit that I'm a little surprised to hear about trouble with Perkins engines. I have never (before now) heard anything but positive comments on Perkins engines. I, myself, have a backhoe (3054 I believe) that has over 12,000 hours. It has run like a champ since day one (I bought it new in '97). I wish you luck.
I always believed that Perkins were good engines too, I had no hesitation purchasing this machine knowing it was a Perkins in it. However, if you surf around this site, you'll find quite a few instances where the engines in the Cat skids have puked at what would be considered a premature death. A close friend of mine was shopping for a Cat skid and told me he saw many machines advertised with new engines with relatively low hours. There seems to be some type of problem with them in this application. I got a chance to look at the machine today, there's nothing protruding from the pan or block so I think the crank seized. No oil to be found in the engine compartment, the engine seems intact.
I haven't been into the innards of the Perkapillar engine, worked on many of the old school Perkins engines, I'd wager there are some design differences with the Cat model engines. If there is some type of design or component flaw, once you get some info from inside your engine, I'm certain you will report it here. I hope it doesn't turn out to be an expensive repair for ya.
I would check the cam / cam-bearings- I seem to remember something about the three cylinders getting a bad batch of cams that resulted in the cam bearings spinning this was years ago , and you said that yours is 10 yrs old
Back when I worked for the local Cat house saw many little Perkins die a early death mostly from oil pump pickup tubes. Cat was decent about covering the tab for out of warranty machines...... Helps if your a big Cat customer. Only difference between a Perkins and a Cat in the same engine series is the yellow paint and about $1100.00...... I been thru that.
Hmm, the oil pump pick up tube breaks off or something?
Saw them broke off and saw them cracked causing eratic PSI.
Those engines have had problems. A friend of mine had 300 hours on his 236 and it locked up. Had to fight to get it covered (out of warranty and the skid steer is the only piece of equipment he owns). He threaten to tell everyone he knows what a POS the machine and the dealer is. He got his machine covered. I remember some posts on here stating that they were quoted around 10K to replace the engine. That is a crazy amount of money.
Steve, I know exactly the frustration you are feeling when the main machine you are relying on goes down. It has happened to me numerous times over the years, you make a big investment in what you think should be a reliable machine and through no fault of your own, it lets you down. I know nothing about Cat skidsteers, but there was a time here in Australia, where in the agricultural sector and other areas as well, Perkins engines were the predominant engine being used and their reliability was second to none. Whether that has changed since Cat took them over, I don't know, however, with Cat's reputation, I would have thought not. While surfing the net today, I came across a couple of articles relating to Perkins/Cat engines, that another chap has posted on other forums and when I read them, I thought of your problems and I wondered if there might be a connection. Here are the links to his posts, they are both very similar. They are posted by a chap called 'onetrack'. http://www.hcvc.com.au/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1285398039 http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-...inental-engine-co-sold-chinese-interests.html In the second link it is post #10. Best of luck and I hope you your dealer does the right thing. RnR.
Interesting reading on those China built Perkins engines.
Thanks guys, this info gives me more ammo to go at the dealer with.
Steve...... just for ****s and giggles can you see the tag on you engine? I was wondering where that engine was built.
Any updates on this? Im kinda in the same boat. The oil light starting flashing but no knocking noise's I cut the machine off to check the oil and it was full. Went to start it and its acting like its locked up. It ran maybe 2-3min tops and now nothing
I think once that light indicates loss of psi you a seconds to get it shut down before it becomes a boat anchor.
I just rebuilt a 3024ct in a 242b that had 6000 hrs .If you do rebuild use the updated head gasket they had problems out of the ones that came in the kit.
I am sorry for you Steve,and scared for myself,as I have a 246,with the same engine..Im pretty sure the 248 has a 3034T in it,around 74hp net.When researching machines to purchase,I seen several with reman or new engines,and under 2000Hrs.....
Is there a particular series or model year that is problematic. The 3024 is in many machines, across many years. Just trying to decide if i should worry or not.
Steve, How ya making out with this ? jr
I haven't been able to look at it much other than to say nothing has penetrated the block or pan. I'm having issues with my trucks which are more important and my repair time is limited. On top of that we're getting snow every few days which has to be plowed with the trucks that have the repair problems. I'm not a happy camper these days
Ya , I know I've got a 2010 247B2 that oil sampled @ 100 hrs. with coolant in the oil. Really wish Cat would dump the Perkins motors in the compact line and go to Yanmar or Kubota. jr
Can these skid-steers have a Mitsubishi motor as well? We have a 236B at work and while changing the oil I noticed it said Mitsubishi on a plate on the valve cover. Just wondering if there are different engine options. Ours is around 1400 hrs and nothing yet. Good Luck hopefully Cat will help you out.
Yeah I believe some of them have Mitsubishi in them. jr
I think the 3.3l 3044 motors are mitsubishis , a four cyl version of the 3046 thats in the d3,4,5 i think, and the 2.2l 3024 are the perkins ones . the older "A" model ones all had perkins/cat 3034 .am i right?
Almost every CAT skidsteer that we receive at our, that have the "Perkapillar" engines, need to be serviced. Lots of times, they have a hole on the side of the block. Considering the value of these skidsteers in our area, and that the engines are hard to replace with a good price. We have to find these skidsteers at a really good price.
If engine overhaul/replacement was necessary, could a Mitsubishi be swapped in?
With the right parts and some fab skills, you could swap in a Briggs and Stratton if you wanted. Seriously, its basically an engine driving a pump... I don't see why you couldn't put any engine in there you want.
Yesterday the second engine failed on my 242b2. 730 hours, the first engine failed at 175 hours this one lasted a bit over 500 hours.
***! I feel for you buddie, I am not trying to throw any punches just would like to know if the oil had been changed more then one or twice? I have a perk in my JCB and this post is not giving me a good feeling .
Me neither Steve, I think my '05 257b has the 3024. This thread is scaring the crap out of me. Can you tell me specifically what engine(s) you have failing. Then can you tell us why do you think? Thanks Ken
My thinking on the 3024 is that 60 hp is alot to ask from a 2.2 liter diesel. I have two in service, a 3024 and a 3013, both came from the factory set up to run high idle at 2800 rpm, to obtain listed horsepower. To me, in a motor this compact, there is only so much room for bearing area on rods, mains, and something has to give if motor is run hard. A few years back, this type of horsepower came from motors almost twice as big. They would wear out after 5-10 thousand hours, they would seldom break. There is a difference. The first thing I did on both machines was detune about 15% rpm- I am hoping it helps.
My perkins that recently died I posted about was the 3034. It seized the #4 rod bearing. Machine was serviced at 729hrs and died at 796hrs
I believe CAT signed an agreement to start using CNH engines. Not sure when that kicks off, but it is to met the new tier requirements and as it looks maybe clear up a few other "issues".
Should have mentioned that this is the second 242b I've owned. The first went through 2 engines before 500 hours. So I'll soon be on my 5th engine in about 1200 hours.
So how many did you get Cat to replace?
A freind of mine has a 236 he bought new in 02 and motor went at 100 hrs cat warrantied and no problem sense but they also said it was a factory flaw just not what the flaw was. My 236B has the newer mitsubishi and sense oct 06 and 2100hrs ive never bought a part for it
Sorry to rehash an old thread, but I thought this might be relevant. There is a service letter for failed engine oil pumps on these machines and the fix is replacement of the engine. Service Letter PS51867 Product support program to address loss of engine oil pressure related to the oil pump idler gear dowels on certain C2.2 engines installed in 216B, 226B, 232B, 242B skid steer loaders, and 247B and 257B Multi Terrain loaders, and C1.5 engines installed in CB22 compactors. After Failure Only Termination Date 31Jul2012
good heads up maybe Cat may make good and a few failer that the owners paid for ??????
Has anyone ever rebuilt a c2.2/3024c? Currently have one apart that spun a connecting rod bearing. Wondering if it's worth messing with.
I was just wondering if anyone here can answer this about the failed Perkins engines. On the ones that are spinning rod bearings. Do they have the standard rods that are machined where the cap mates up to the rod, or are they the fractured style rods that have the rough feel where the cap meats up to the rod? I am just wondering because I do remember there being a notice that came out about that several years ago. Thanks for the input guys.
I would strongly assume they are worth rebuilding as a new one would run you a minimum of $5k, but - as I have never rebuilt one - I look forward to input from the experienced folks here on the thread.
Yeah I'm gonna bore it out and put oversized pistons in it and machine the crank. Machining is going to cost me about $400 for everything so that's not too bad. Is there any thing to removing the injection pump? The crank is also a ball bearing type. Never seen that before.
If it's a ball bearing crank, it isn't a Perkins. I think you must be mistaking the circular bearing carriers for ball bearings.
I dunno. I have to slide it out the end of the block to get it out. There are no main caps. Just one bolt in the center of each main bearing. The engine is a 3024c.
Think you'll find when you get the crank out, those carriers will split in half and release the crank. When you get the crank out, mark the carriers in pairs as they are different sizes. You fit the wrong one to the wrong journal and it won't go all the way back into the block.
OK. Thanks for the heads up. I haven't gotten to it yet. Just been too busy.
Now you have me nervous i just purchased one on sunday with 1900 hrs on it
I'd just like to know how some of these other guys made out with Cat backing them up ? Everyone comes on here and says they have one that puked and then they disappear without telling us the outcome. jr
I didn't have any luck with Caterpillar, and I still haven't been able to tear it down. Due to the poor economy, I had to make a career change and my schedule just keeps me too busy. I spoke with a mechanic last month and he offered to have a look at it, but we haven't been able to get together since. Sorry I don't have more input.
I have a perkins 804 c 33 in a racoon skid steer. It is a fine engine, but It likes a good oil filter. I had no trouble until i went to a perkins shop looking for an oil filter. The employee subed it out to a wix , and when I picked it up it had been again subed out to a napa gold filter. This filter is real junk and they should not be used on the 800 series engines. The oil preasure developed in the engine is far too great for the can or the oil bypass valve. On the first very cold morning in the winter, the can will blow up in size, jam the bypass valve in the filter and blow out the filter gasket! Within a few short minutes you will dump all your oil and the first bearing to spin will be the #4 rod bearing. Catipillar is using the perkins engines in some of their skid steers and they are using the Donaldson oil filter. The filter looks to be well constructed and the oil ring gasket is very heavy duty. . lucked out on the spun bearing. The engine was shut down for a few minutes and the hot babbit on the bearing froze the engine right up. The crank cleaned up real good and the new bearings miked right up within specs. There are warnings in the manuals, about using only filters recomended by perkins. Bottom line is it's a great engine and it has a gotten a bad rap or rep because of after market filters.
January 2012 Cat made arrangements for Kubota to build their future compact equipment engines and put the Cat name on them. I guess even Cat gave up on this one.
The primary reason was because the 3.3L engine made by Mitsubishi and branded by Perkins was not going to be Tier IV.
Where did you get this story from?
My contacts in china tell me the Perkins 804d 33 series engine is the tier IV engine, and that engine is being used in most of their small equipment, all skid steers and also told me CAT was using it also, and CAT would soon start building them in the USA down south somewhere. They told me the the reliability and emissions numbers on the 804d engines was super good. Tried to get info out of perkins and they are in the dark on it. Another sourse told me CAT purchased all the perkins rights to the engine. I am not concerned about the manufacturer, I am more concerned about who will stock the spare parts..
That 804D-33 is a Mitsubishi built engine that Mitsubishi decided not to have a final Tier IV solution for. I do know that Perkins did come out with their own 854F series that will be Tier IV final compliant, but I can't speak for whether CAT will be using these, or anyone else for that matter. I had heard that ASV(Terex) was not going to use a Perkins engine any longer above 75hp.
I have also heard that Cat was going to the Kubota engine in the small machines. Skid steers and mine excavators.
I thought that Cat had already bought out Perkins about 5-6 years ago?
You are correct. CAT owns 100% of Perkins.
I only know of 2 things that'll lock up a Perkins or any other diesel I've worked on...#1 hydro lock & #2 too much staring fluid (I don't use it, I use a gas rag over the air cleaner bonnet). But you were running so #2 don't apply, if it was anything else mechanical she'd more than likely come apart on you...got me scratching my head now...
Thanks for the info...just in case I gotta get parts I can go to the Cat dealer in Kailua-Kona...I got an old Miller Big D4...Perkins Powered...
http://www.forconstructionpros.com/...rces-skid-steer-excavator-engines-from-kubota
Yep. The 272D and 299D are already using the 3.8L Kubota. The C series skids/CTLs and below are still using the Perkins.
I can finally give an update to this thread. The machine broke during a real tough time for me and I haven't had the time or resources until now to do anything with the machine. I had a heavy equipment mechanic run some tests on it and the engine is toast. He did an oil sample and it's full of what appears to be aluminum particles. I'm going to have him pull the engine for me and then I'll take it to the shop at work to tear down and see if it's salvageable. I live in a somewhat rural area where skid steers are not uncommon but you don't see one wherever you go either. Bobcat, John Deere, New Holland and Caterpillar all share a portion of the brands that you do see here. This mechanic is one of the few independent mobile mechanics not related to a dealership and he told me he's done 7 of these engines in Cat skid steers that have puked. My point is there aren't an extremely high number of these machines around yet this mechanic has repaired 7 that were blown. He told me they almost always throw a rod through the block, mine did not, I think probably due to the low rpm I was running at. I'm hoping to find just the bottom end torn up. I don't remember if it's been mentioned in this thread but I've learned there was a defect in the oil pickup tube where it would crack. It could suck air for a while and foam the oil until it would eventually break off and result in catastrophic failure as in my case. I'm curious to see if this is what happened. I'll keep you posted.
Well folks, it's terminal. I stripped off most of the accessories and pulled the head. No. 4 piston wasn't where it's supposed to be so I figured the rod broke. It wasn't until I turned the motor to work on the bottom that I realized the block was spider webbed next to no. 4 cylinder. I got the pan off and the largest dimension of the pieces of the rod is about one inch. No. 3 rod bearing is spun. The oil pickup tube is intact. I haven't been able to yet determine what caused this mess. Oil is in real good condition other than the shrapnel it's littered with. I've read where these machines now house Mitsubishi engines. Has anyone ever done a conversion?
Steve, is your engine a 3 cylinder? I saw two of them seize in small rollers. The engines where Perkins, assembled in UK with parts from India. If yours is similar, has the injector pump cast into the cyl block, governor and oil pump in the front cover. Look for this when you take it apart. The one I had apart had a rotary oil pump mounted inside of one of the timing gears. The gear used a bore in the front cover as a bearing. The rotary pump was driven by three small pins, the pin holes were drilled in a groove around the bearing surface of the gear(midway along it). Look for a groove gouged in the bore of the front housing by the drive pins. There is a spiral spring wrapped around the gear and should be in the groove holding the pins in place. The one I had, the spring was pushed back against the gear teeth and not in the groove. The drive pins had nothing hard to hold them in place, they just ran against the housing bore and soon gouged out the aluminium untill they no longer could drive the pump. Then no oil pressure and seized crank. Later Bob
Cat bought 50% of Perkins in the late 1980's and acquired 100% ownership of them in 1997. Their disastrous foray into Chinese Perkins manufacturing has been put behind them, and settled (through the Chinese courts, surprisingly). The corporate crooks involved in the Tianjin Joint Venture were jailed. However, the damage the Tianjin crooks did to Perkins is unquantifiable. No-one really knows how many dodgy Chinese Cat Perkins parts were produced by Tianjin - or how many Chinese Cat Perkins engines were produced with poor assembly or build quality. With this kind of problem, it can still be appearing 10 or 15 yrs down the track, as the low hour engines crash due to the Chinese faults in manufacture or assembly that aren't discovered until many years later. However, Cat should still be standing behind their product, and if you have a premature failure and make a lot of noise in the dealership managers office, they usually admit to any known problem/s. The standard initial reply is, "you're the only one having this problem". This has been the Cat standard reply since I bought my first new Cat D6C in 1966 - and the D333 had heads coming off valves within 4000hrs. Of course, after the standard Cat reply, I found out that other local Cat owners were having the same problem! It was only when a head fell off a valve less than a week after the dealer did an engine rebuild (and they were up for another rebuild under warranty), that the dealer grudgingly admitted, "Yes, we had a batch of faulty valves - so we'll give you a full new set for free". Now, the stupidity of the whole deal was - if the dealer had admitted the problem, first up, they would have saved themselves the cost of a full engine rebuild. :duh Back to the Chinese Cat Perkins saga. As of December 2007, Cat built an entire new engine factory in China, and went into Joint Venture with IHI-Shibaura, the Japanese engine & tractor company, to run the Chinese Perkins engine production facility. Shibaura has a long record of building Perkins engines under licence, and there are no Chinese involved in the QC or the management of the new JV. The assembly-line workers are Chinese, of course - but they are working under tight Cat/Shibaura control, and QC is equivalent to any other top Cat or Shibaura manufacturing facility. This factory came on stream in late 2008. http://china.cat.com/cda/layout?m=315919&x=7&id=1629444 http://www.ihi-shibaura.com/english/aboutus/history.html
Great information. The primary engine that has been the problem is the 2.2L engine which is of the Shibura design. CAT, Case, New Holland and ASV all used this same 2.2L engine and had massive head gasket failures and pick-up tube problems.
Digdeep - Yeah, I seem to recall my nephew having trouble with the head gasket in the Perkins in his Cat 277. The engine failed at low hours, I think it was about 18 mths - 2 yrs ago. However, he said Cat admitted there was problem and they fixed it without arguing. It might help that he runs about 50 Cats - a lot of them big dozers - so when he complains about something to Cat, they sit up and listen!
This engine is 4 cylinders and according to the id tag is 2.9 litres, Perkins 2600 series engine. It seems very similar to the description given above. The governor and oil pump are housed in the front engine cover which is cast aluminum. The oil pump is gear driven off the crank. Half of the oil pump housing is machined into the backside of this cover and a cast aluminum piece forms the other half. This piece is bolted to the cover and sandwiches the oil pump rotor and revolving chamber between it. This cast housing cover is what broke and the pump lost its suction and pressure as a result. There is no damage to the rotor or the revolving chamber to indicate excessive pressures or debris in the pump, it appears this casting just broke for no reason. I'm pretty upset about this as the engine has just 1500 hours on it. I'll be making some more phone calls to Caterpillar.
Steve...I'm not aware of CAT using a 2.6L engine in any of their skid steers. Only a Perkins 3L (3034) engine when the first 248 came out and the CAT branded Mitsubishi 3.3L in the B series.
Steve, that sounds like the same style of engine. You need to lift the injector pump assem and unhook the rack link from the governor to take the cover off. Later Bob
My machine was the first 248 my local dealer sold. I'm having trouble uploading pics, but I've got a pic of the ID tag in front of me, actually there are two tags, one Perkins and one Cat. Engine Family: YPKXL03.0UC1 Engine Type: 1991/2600 Engine List No.: 159-9214 Advertised kW: 60.2@2600RPM Displacement: 2.9L The Cat part number is 159-9214 The governor is comprised of 4 weights attached to the injector pump gear which push a plunger against a lever attached to the front cover. That lever has an extension that disappears into the injection pump. There's also a spring attached to the outside of the front cover that is the throttle return spring. I got the crank loose since I posted, all the crank bearings are in good shape. The only damage is the oil pump, No. 3 rod bearing, No.4 rod and bearing and the cracked side of the block. In light of what happened, the damage could have been much worse, although broke is broke!
He just posted about the #4 piston so I would think that the engine has at least 4 cylinders. Probabaly not the 3 banger you were talking about.
I'm sorry Steve....I misread your earlier post and thought you said 2.6L. 2.9/3.0L pretty much the same. CAT calls their current 3.3L engine a 3.4 even though it's only 201 cubic inches.
Thanks for the input Buddy, wana match wits with me I'll burry you any day of the week. Later Bob
Sorry all that remark was for DGODGR.
Not sure what the issue is here. Sounds as though you were offended by my post. No need to be offended. You were talking about a 3 cyl. He was talking about a 4 cyl. Based on Steve's later post the two had similar components though.
I'm not sure what the "match wits" issue is myself, altogether confused myself, but I trust it becomes a "non-issue" in due course as this issue seems (to me) to be irrelavent to this thread. :beatsme
Cat did fit some Perkins 2.6 litre engines into 216 skid steers, it isn't a Shibaura/Perkins, but has the same Zexel pump sitting in a pocket. These engines, the 700 series, were very reliable and torquey, with none of the suction tube or head gasket issues of the smaller mills. There was also a 3.0 Litre version, never come across a 2.9 but it maybe the larger engine fell midway and was badged as a 2.9 by Cat and a 3.0 by Perkins. Apart from the injector pump these engines were totally different from the 2.2's, only being replaced by the (Mitsubishi) 3 litre (Perkins designation 800-series) due to emissions law, as it was virtually impossible to make the 700 meet legislation.
I think that knowing which engine, exactly, that Steve has would be very beneficial. This info, along with others' first hand experiences, will help the reader determine if this particular engine may be troublesome, or if Steve's is a somewhat islolated case. I, and I'm sure Steve, would also like to know if he has any, possibly more reliable, options for replacement. Steve has given the ID badge info. Can't anybody tell us eactly what engine he's dealing with?
Sorry for flipping out at you Dgodgr, just took message the wrong way. My post may have sounded stupid to some but I am working from past experiance not a liberary. I believe Steve's engine is similar to the one I spoke of Two seized one result of assembley The tag on the replacement engine said it's a 5000 Hr engine. Later Bob
Just looked at the I.D. Info, it is a Cat-badged Perkins 700 series, 3.0 litre displacement. Sounds like it's suffering from a porous block. Ps, this didn't come from a library, either.
The one I worked on was cast of grey iron, very crumbley, not the good cast you would expect in a Perkins. Later Bob
Perkins have used several casting suppliers, normally there's no problem with them until a rod decides to show you the quality of the casting. I've seen porosity and sand inclusions in some blocks where the engine has been stripped for some unrelated reason, and it's caused no problem at all. I've also seen rods punch through some of the best quality castings imaginable.
My machine is a 2000 model, the engine is tagged as being built in 1999. Perhaps someone with a later model 246 or 248 can post their engine info, the tag is located on the intake manifold. I'm curious if there was an engine model change before they switched to Mitsubishi? There doesn't appear to be a defect in the block, and I believe the rod broke as a result of the loss of oil pressure. What does concern me is why the cover plate to the oil pump broke, it's almost perfectly broken where it makes a 90 degree bend. I didn't notice it at first it was such a clean break. Once I figure out the resizing problem with the site here I'll post pics.
Does it look like a stress crack from Vibration? Later Bob
The break is clean, the edges of the break are not polished like they had been rubbing against each other.
Stress cracks leave a smooth surface for more than 75% of the break and when they get far enough across the small remaining piece will fracture and leave a surface like sand paper. Does your piece of metal look like that. Later Bob
No. As I stated, the break is a clean fracture, it fits back together to the point you can hardly see the crack. The entire circumference is like sandpaper.
Should be some warranty help with that one. Later Bob
OK, finally have some pics to post: The first is the engine ID tag Next is the engine pressure washed ready for disassembly Here is the spider crack in the block, number 4 cylinder. The engine casting number is supposed to tell a lot about it, if anyone knows how to decipher it I'd appreciate it. Number 3 rod bearing spun Number 4 rod destroyed, bearing melted
This is the oil pump housing cast into the front cover. The circled bolt plus the other two similar allow the oil pump housing cover to be removed. A portion of it is still attached here. This is the oil pum rotor plus broken portion of cover plate. The circled edge mates with the portion still attached to the front cover pictured abaove. I've been in contact with the Service Manager at my Cat dealer, he said he'll see what he can do but the calander is against me. I'm hoping I can get at least some assistance. I'm probably stuck putting an identical engine in and given what I've read about these and what my mechanic has told me I'm not real warm and fuzzy about the idea. I'd love to be able to fit in a Cummins 4BT but there would be a lot of adapting.
Steve, that's a different and much better pump than was on the engine I described to you. To me it looks like the oil flow got stopped somehow and the pump exploded. Doesn't sound logical but makes me wonder. Later Bob
Are you being told that this is not an anomally for this engine? If the later versions were supplied with a Mitsubishi it might be much easier to put that in there (if those are more reliable than the Perkins). The parts should be available through Cat so maybe no customizing would be required. I can only imagine the things that would have to be custom made to install a 4BT. One thing I know for sure. I do not envy you in your situation.
Steve, this is an anomaly with this engine, don't be frightened of replacing like with like. This is different to the engine that provoked the thread.
Can anyone tell me how the cam gear and injection pump gear come off? I've tried a puller and tapped on the center bolt while it was taught but they don't show a hint of moving. I don't want to crank the torque to the puller unless I know they pull off.
There are two kinds, some are pressed on and dont come off and others use a keyway and can come off but are a really tight fit. Both look the same. The correct way is to remove the injection pump from the governor and then disassemble the gov and remove the gear still on the cam.
2005 CAT 257B with Perkins engine. 637 hrs. Well, I knew my day would come. Last time I checked the oil it was down quite a bit, low on the stick, not gone. Thought it was unusual, better keep an eye on it. Topped it up. This morning, same thing. Left the filler cap off and started it. Blow by like I have never seen before. Massive amounts of hot exhaust blasting out. Coolant level is good. A little black smoke on acceleration, clean otherwise. Crank vents into air intake between the turbo and manifold. Silly thing starts and runs fine. If there was something wrong inside you'ld never know it. Maybe the slight hint of a miss, but barely noticeable. One dealer says cracked ring leading to scored cylinder and piston Other dealer says possible head gasket failure into and oil gallery. Coolant level is good. A little black smoke on acceleration, clean otherwise. Crank vents into air intake between the turbo and manifold. Said ASV ran into head gasket problems on perkins back in around the mid 2000's. Perkins was warrantying them then. Anyway, finish the job we are on and take it in. Oh what fun.
2010 247B2 with 647 hrs. first 3 oil samples showed coolant in oil. This last one OK go figure+.
I would think that if your head gasket was out you would be seeing pressure in the radiator and or blowing out from the overflow. Either way not good. Maybe CAT will help you out. I have buddy that had his 226B lose the engine at 300 hours. It was out of warranty but the dealership, after some unkind words from my buddy were exchanged with CAT, they picked up the bill. Given the amount of failures with that engine CAT should be fixing all them on their dime. They seem to be getting a free pass on issue.
Yeah, I would think that by now CAT compact equipment would be nearly unmarketable. I don't know how the rest of the lines are, but those skid steers have ruined my taste for any of the small CAT equipment. Seems like they had a bad run for a while, between the asv undercarriage, and these perkins motors.
Only the 2.2L engine had head gasket issues. The other engines were very solid. This is the same 2.2L Shibura/Perkins engine that gave CNH and ASV fits too.
I found a forum discussion showing pics of a blown headgasket etc. I suspect that's what we have in mine. I wonder if continuing to run it ( gently) to finish up the week will harm it any further. I worry the hot exhaust entering the crankcase is going to expose parts to more heat, or soot, than they can handle. I worry about crank seals, journal bearings. Thoughts?
I finally have a conclusion to this story. Cat stepped up to the plate and provided me with a rebuilt engine at no charge provided I let their service department reassemble my core and transfer all components from the original to the rebuilt. That cost was about $1200. I also hired a mechanic to remove and install the engine which ran about $800 so my total cost was about $2000. The price of the rebuild alone was nearly $10,000 plus the $800 R&R would have been about $11,000 to me, a $9000 difference. It took quite some time to work out all the logistics but my 248 has a fresh motor in it.
Good news Steve! In the end, mine was a badly blow head gasket, venting combustion chamber pressure into the pushrod gallery I believe. For sure the pressure was going into the crankcase, and venting out the crankcase vent, or oil fill cap. ASV fixed all theirs in a big recall. I took the unit to an ASV dealer, they had fixed many of these a few years ago. Ken
Hello and Thanks for the extensive thread, wish I would have found this earlier. I have a 2005 232B that spun #3 rod bearing at 1300 hrs. I am just getting around to doing it and came to a wall on shop manuals. I have every manual for the machine BUT the engine manuals, go figure right! Checked eBay and found only an older model manual, then went to dealer. Dealer says, have to buy complete set for $800+. I say no way I can afford this so searched another week for the manuals with no success. Called back guy from ebay who I had a nice talk with when inquiring about the manuals and he said "No way, they sell them individually you just got a bad parts guy" so I called Alban Cat in Baltimore where I reached a very nice parts man who found me the manual part numbers. All four engine manuals for under $90! The man was so good a parts man and knew I was calling from another territory that he gave me the numbers and asked me to purchase them from Ransome Cat who is my local dealer. I obliged him and called back Ransome and gave them the parts I wanted and he said that he would order them. This was the same guy and he remembered me being there about these manuals. He never asked me for a credit card number and said they could take as long as two weeks to come from the printer. I HOPE he ordered them! What I could desperately use is the torque specs for the rods so that the machine shop can check their machining against the new undersized bearings. If anyone could supply this info it would be a great help to me. I bought a Maxiforce rebuild kit for this machine as it was so much better priced than the Cat version. I read that Maxiforce was a good company, any experience with success/failure of their parts? Any tips that may not be in the manuals for putting this engine back together? Comments? Thanks a lot for everyone's willingness to share your experiences with us it is truly a very valuable service you provide for us members! Joe
Did you determine the cause of the failure? I'd write to corporate via their webpage and see if they will help you at all. I was able to get them to replace my engine at the same hours but 5 years older than yours.
36-40ft/lb for the rods and the main carriers
THANK YOU so much, you don't know how much you helped a man in need! What a Great site!
For future reference, the Perkins 6t is the only good Perkins engine they made bullet proof, 4 cylinders not so good
That's a pretty bold statement. I'm sure that you could find a lot of people, even on this site, that have had great luck with a Perkins engine. I, for one, have a Cat 416C (4 cyl.) that has over 12,000 hours on it. The most major engine component that I have had to replace is the water pump.
I don't have any idea what experience you have with the Perkins brand but I strongly disagree with that statement. I do agree some of the problems they have had more recently are a real shame but Perkins as a whole is a very good brand backed by some of the largest/best names in the market.
Cat had a problem with crank case vent freezing up in cold weather and they would suck all oil from crankcase, there was a kit to remove vent from intake, i had to rebuild a engine because of a few bent rods, customer need just one more day.
Great news Steve, after all the slams against Cat earlier in this thread, I think that this speaks to the integrity of the brand.
Yair . . . It's strange how urban myths get in the way of fact. Sure, Perkins have had problems with particular engine lines but I think that applies to other makes as well. In general I believe they are a well respected engine. They were at the forefront of developing the "lightweight high speed" diesel and, like most Pommy machinery, they perfected the art of leaking oil . . . remember the 4-108? Cheers.
How else do you suggest we stop them from rusting?
There is no integrity in this issue for CAT. There are many guys who have paid dearly to get their machine fixed due to premature failure. Integrity would have been fixing the problem and standing behind it from the beginning when they knew they had a problem. This was the exact opposite of integrity by letting machines fail, then forcing the customer to beg and plead for help. Stretching out the process so the customer would foot the bill and if enough bitching was done, then extend some help but in the machines that I know of never paying all of it.
The 3054's weren't all that great either. I have 2 of them laying in my shop. one has a balancer that is in 5 pieces( mounting bolts came loose) The other spun a main bearing and has a seized piston. Both under 2200 hrs
I guess we will have to agree to disgree! :drinkup
I've got mixed feelings on this whole ordeal. When I was shopping the machine back in 2000, I looked at Cat, Case, Deere and New Holland, they were the brands with local dealers. The Bobcat dealer at the time had a horrendous reputation for customer service so I didn't even consider that. New Holland didn't have pilot controls yet so I demoed the other three. I was so impressed with how the Cat operated I waited an additional year for high flow to become available before I purchased. I didn't do a price comparison between machines, the Cat just ran circles around the other brands for the work I was doing. The production rate was all that mattered to me. Plus there was a big Cat emblem on the back of the machine, what could go wrong? I knew the engine was a Perkins but that brand had been around forever and now had the Cat emblem on it as well. The machine served me flawlessly up until the failure but that failure was catastrophic. When it happened my small landscaping business had already pretty much come to a halt due to the economy, but if it had occurred earlier it would have put me out of business. The estimated cost of repairs was just a couple thousand dollars less than the machine was worth when the motor blew. With my initial contact to my Cat dealer about the problem I was told there would be no help, the machine was 10 years old so it sat....... and sat while I tried to figure out what to do with my new lawn ornament. I contemplated swapping a Kubota or Cummins engine in but there was going to be a lot of on the fly engineering involved for that if I could figure out if they would fit in that space to start with. As time went on and I was researching a solution I came across more and more similar stories, and a couple stories of where Cat had extended the warranty period and repaired these blown engines. That's when I contacted Corporate and explained my problem. I've explained what transpired after that earlier in this thread but the short version is they approved my dealer to analyze the failure and subsequently replace the engine. It took nearly 3 years for me to get my machine running again. Again, I will state that Cat had no obligation to help me whatsoever, I was 7 years over the warranty period but I had minimal hours on the machine. I'm happy with the end result, my machine is repaired but not happy with the amount of time it took, nor that it happened in the first place. I'd have never imagined that my Perkins/Caterpillar engine had been manufactured in China, I assumed either England or USA, that information may have played a part in my initial purchase.
It is definetly a shame that it took so long to resolve Steve, but the fact that they eventually did stand behind their product despite being 7 years out of warranty is something that I doubt many manufacturers would do. I guess I would be dissapointed that your dealer didn't fight harder on your behalf initially.
Not looking for a fight over the issue Oxbow, but I have this to say. I think Steve could have/would have been happy that CAT did anything at all on a machine that far out of warranty IF this was a chance happening. The fact that these engines have been puking since inception changes all of that. It was a KNOWN problem, CAT could have done a number of things to make life easier for their unfortunate customers but they didn't. How many guys could have waited three years to get an engine replaced? Only Steve's unique circumstances allowed for that. Every OEM lays an egg, this was a big one (pretty bad when the repair over-values the machine) and CAT should not be let off the hook for it. The service that CAT customers often cite as reasons for purchase fell very short as it pertains to these engines.
Steve, from what I've seen here you'd never pull this card. But- is there any chance CAT knows of your role with HEF? While 3 years is unthinkble to try and survive a business without a major piece of equipment, you do now have your machine back. What would they have done for a small farmer/nursery person like myself? Every time I log on to HEF, I appreciate the work you and all of the adminstrators do to help us. I cant say that I've done that so I don't have that "street cred" that you do.
I can't say whether this site had any bearing on my treatment or not. I've left cards for the site at the parts and service counters at my local dealer, and with the couple salesmen I know personally. They are aware of the site at the local level but I don't know if anyone informed corporate of it. All I know is within a week or so of sending an email to corporate complaining about my situation and how my research had turned up numerous cases similar to mine I got a call from my local service manager saying they wanted my engine for failure analysis.
All, Does anyone know if there is any kind of class action lawsuit against CAT with the 3024 Perkins engine? After reading all the post on here and I am having the same issues with mine, was just wondering? G
Ive been looking at an 06 257b......
I have one of these engines in my asv. I think. Anyone know the fail rate of them? 1%, 2%? more?
So do i. I also have two 3054 engines that came out of these ASV's, Guy that owned them engines ran 8 of these ASV 4810's,( you do the math on his failure rate) 1 of them spun a main bearing and has a seized piston, the other one has the balancer laying in the oil pan in 15 pieces,lol
So you're telling me that I have a 30% chance of my engine blowing up? That sounds like hyperbole, no offense. Wouldn't there be a recall or a fix for these problems?
Just don't overheat it,keep an eye on the temp and clean the rad often. Also keep an eye on the front motor mount brackets where they are bolted to the the engine, the bolt holes are bored trough the block into the crank case cavity and if/when a bolt happens to dribble out the engine oil will follow.(would be better to replace these bolts with a glued in stud) Other than that it'll be crap shoot with these engines.:beatsme Oh,.. BTW these 2 engines i have packed it in with less than 2000 hrs on them Cat don't care.,,IMO The problem lies with insufficient cooling capacity with the rather small rad in these ASV's, especially if one runs a mulcher head.
First of all thanks guys for all the great info. I've been a lurker here for years. I recently bought at CAT 2008 242B2 with the 2.2 Perkins. I got it cheap as the motor was blown with less then 1000hrs. I ordered a crate perkins and slapped it in and have a great machine. I finally had the time to tear down the old motor (I have a lot of experience with building motors) and found a fairly serious flaw. The reason my original engine failed was due to the Pistons being installed "180*" off in the bores. The pistons have valve reliefs on one side, unfortunately the valves were on the other side... every piston had marks in the top from the valves barely hitting. The failure sequence in my motor was the valves obviously taking a minor beating (about .015" divits in pistons) over the ~1000 hrs. Piston number one eventually gave out and lost the push rod and lifter for the ex valve. The lifter dropped, and the mains lost oil pressure. This is where the cylinder one rod seized to the crank and broke. I wanted to pass this along mostly because I have no idea if the brand new motor I put in was the same. If I had of known I would have pulled the head off and checked/dropped the pan and rotated the pistons/rods.
How can it drop a lifter!?
Great Information Thanks a much and who would of thought the factory put in the pistons turned 180 deg wrong? I recently bought at CAT 2008 242B2 with the 2.2 Perkins. I got it cheap as the motor was blown with less then 1000hrs. I ordered a crate perkins and slapped it in and have a great machine. I finally had the time to tear down the old motor (I have a lot of experience with building motors) and found a fairly serious flaw. The reason my original engine failed was due to the Pistons being installed "180*" off in the bores. The pistons have valve reliefs on one side, unfortunately the valves were on the other side... every piston had marks in the top from the valves barely hitting. The failure sequence in my motor was the valves obviously taking a minor beating (about .015" divits in pistons) over the ~1000 hrs. Piston number one eventually gave out and lost the push rod and lifter for the ex valve. The lifter dropped, and the mains lost oil pressure. This is where the cylinder one rod seized to the crank and broke. I wanted to pass this along mostly because I have no idea if the brand new motor I put in was the same. If I had of known I would have pulled the head off and checked/dropped the pan and rotated the pistons/rods. View attachment 118638 View attachment 118639 View attachment 118640 [/QUOTE]
Push on the valve hard enough (with the piston) while the lifter is trying to open it.... see what happens. The cam literally ate the lifter and push rod and spit them out in the oil pan. This motor was a mess. See the rod kicked out of the side of the block? imagine what the inside looks like.
Hi, does it seem that the turbo ones give more trouble that non turbo ones? I have a 216 with the 2.2 liter in it with 4100 hrs on the clock, always used a bit of oil but goes ok. Or am I going to get my own set of " leg out of bed " pictures? I've had it from new to, 250 hr oil changes .
I had a perkins in a posi-track it was the only thing I liked about that machine after it sit in the chook house for 12 months I traded it on a new kobelco excavator, wish you the best of luck with it Steve
I can add another one to the list, perkins in a little CB22 roller, failed oil pump and starved the gear train of oil. Only 237 hrs, Replaced complete engine under warranty by cat dealer. not immune to skidsters it seems
nzpatch, I don't think whether or not it has a turbo would make a difference, the oil pump cover breaks and it isn't under any undue stress because of the turbo. Either the design was too thin or the method of casting was poor the way they are breaking apart.
I've read this thread off an on for a while but today I got to see first hand the oil pump failure. I was stopping at our local machine shop, don't tell my boss but I was dropping off the heads for my Harley on company time! Well as I was talking to the owner about some failed engines sitting there he mentioned on was a Perkins. I said I had heard that some Perkins in Cat skid steers have been know to have oil pump failures. He walked across the room and pointed to an engine and said, "There's one right there!" Said it had seized three mains and spun them in the block and alos some rods were damaged. He showed me the oil pump with the end broke out. He's not sure what the guy is going to do.
The management now days try to save a $ here and there that cost them $$$$$$ in the long run, not much integrity left any more .
Just found this thread while looking for a used Block for a 2002 Cat 262 2.9 liter turbo. Looks like I a get to join the crowd. A employee was running the machine at idle when it started knocking and died. Oil pump sheared off just like in some previous pictures. The connecting rod on #4 cylinder came out the side of block similar to some of the other pictures posted. I'm unable to locate a used motor or short block so I'm going to try welding up the block and turning the crankshaft. Cheapest rebuilt I could find was $9800 + $2000 penalty for bad core return. Not worth it for this age machine. Any recommendation on rod type? Any one tried to put a different motor in these machines?
There was a 226 with a duetz in it for sale a while back. So I'm sure it's possible. The guy said it was a 80 hp motor.
Can't tell you how many of these machines I have seen with bad engines...ridiculous. I have seen one with a John Deere motor in it...didn't look too service-friendly though. I met a guy that has put in three 4bt cummins in the A series tire machines. He finds the cummins from industrial applications like a genset, uses mounts and bellhouses from excavators that came with the cummins. The engine is about 4" longer so the rear mount is actually tied into the back bumper, and is about 5" taller due to the turbo being on the left side of engine (and mounted above exhaust intake) and intake pipe crossing over the top to meet turbo. I suppose the intake could be routed around the back of the engine with the exhaust manifold flipped with turbo below it, but that setup seems to create servicibility problems. The perkins weighs a bit less, so the cummins acts like a counterweight, but is 105 hp - so it's plenty of power. Top rpm is different..maybe two hundred with Perkins being around 2600 and 4bt being around 2400, so top speed is affected by about 1 mph. Can get a different spring for the I pump that will take it up to 3k.
Most engine builders I have spoken with are around $4500 to 5500 to rebuild. Most of them are very familiar with this engine too.
The Cummins is what I was looking at before I made the deal I did. I found they were readily available in old delivery trucks like step vans that could be bought cheap. As you mentioned the engine is quite a bit bigger which provides some engineering headaches. I'd love to see pics of a conversion if possible.
Well Im not so sure about Perkins engines now . I worked on a lot of Allis Chalmers 715 hoes and mostly only had to do jug and piston kits . Never seemed to have a problem . Was a BIT CH to pull the old sleeves and freeze the new ones to put back in . But all was good . Sounds like the smaller engines you gents are talking about
I read through this thread and saw the 2.2L come up a few times, is that referring to the 404C-22? Just curious as I have one at 1950 hours right now.
Will try to get you some pics, Steve.
Seems like a big headache considering the value of the skid steer, I think I would seriously just junk it, or if your lucky enough, trade out before your engine takes a dump. You would think that someone would have put together a class action lawsuit on this by now.
If you have the time and money, an oil sample test at the Cat lab might tell your story.
Not that great of pics, but it gives you the idea. Actually, it's pretty enjoyable to operate with the cummins in it. Get's people's attention w/o a muffler too! Lot's of torque at low rpm (i.e. spins the wheels), unlike the perkins which seemingly you had to tach up pretty high to get it to start moving. The side mounts are forwards and a bit inside a couple inches of the factory mounting brackets. Rear mount is about 4" behind factory.
Any other info you can provide? Like how the pumps are mounted and stuff?
Can the radiator drop down where it belongs? Looks tight! That little Cummins is a great engine though
Tandem drive pumps are suspended from the bellhousing...connected to the back of the flywheel with a flexplate that he found. Not sure on the specifics. Radiators had to be moved upwards a bit for clearance sake. Blocks the rear view, so I installed a back up camera.
ANOTHER ONE AND ANOTHER ONE , PERKINS PUKES,!!!!!!!! Hello, This is my first time posting, but I have read a lot of post on this site and found some very good info . So first let me say thanks to all the guys on here who are willing to take their time to help some of us less knowledgeable folks out. Here is the deal I have a 2005 Cat 257b with the famous 3024ct sitting in my yard. Boom all the way up with safety support locked in place. It was hauled in here that way on a rollback. How they got by the DOT beats me. The engine is down in it for the second time , Its run maybe 15 hours in 3 years. A friend of mine is pulling his hair out trying to figure out what to do with it . Original engine 3024 ct gga went at aprox 1450 hrs, replace it with a 3024ct csd that gave trouble from start, rebuilt it before installing , started it with bad oil pump, crap it out , rebuilt again and 10 hours later it was down a gain. Now all of this is from my friend not wanting to go to Cat because of prices and I understand that. But I also know him and his crew are not grease and oil friendly, so its in the shape its in for many reasons. Now he ask me if I could check it out for him and maybe get it running. I am the 3 or fourth person to have their hands on this thing. By reading here and other sources its obvious That the 3024 has had some issues, bad head gasket, bad oil pump installation from factory from what I can find. pick up tube comes loose and causes oil flow and pressure problems. I also saw where some have said piping around and connectors on turbo are a problem. Can anyone tell me if I am on the right track and if so what are the Fixes for the above. I am looking at rebuilding a engine from a bare block up. the original engine has crank broken , I don't know what else till i get it and tear it down, the original head is on the csd that's in loader. I know oil pump is down in original engine. My thinking is since all I have is basically a bunch of junk, Go with the original block on a rebuild if block checks out. That way all the numbers on the machine would be right. Also it would be back to factory specs along with fixes. Has anyone had any luck rebuilding and the 3024 lasting a reasonable time. I have seen on here I think where some one swapped a small cummins in . I would only do that if it was for my person use , just my thinking. I have considered buying the loader but have no ideal what it would be worth. Somebody give me your thoughts on rebuilding. Thanks for reading
Go to Iron Planet and you can see what they bring, its not much. Those old MTL's don't hold their value when they are running. If you could get it real cheap and you wanted to get it going perhaps you can come out on it. I don't see how your customer can come out on it, they would be paying in repairs what the machine is worth or even upside down in it. That is assuming the undercarriage is decent shape. Depending on that, if it is in poor shape, this could easily be a parts machine.
Thanks for replying, my friend is pretty disgusted with it , but overall I can see where he brought this on his self , did very little maintenance and does't know much at all about mechanical things . He couldn't get any help from Cat and that may be why. The 10 to 12 thousand dollars they wanted sent him in a spin and he landed in wrong places to get the right kind of help. Right now I could get the thing for around 8 thousand maybe , but would have to do a complete engine myself and would have in it about what its worth maybe a little less. most of time you always run into something else and end up upside down on the thing , spend more than you thought always. I could use it , I have a twenty acre track of land in near by state, also live on about 4.3 acres myself. had a New Holland it was handiest wheel barrow a man could have. I just have to think about it , see where my friend is on selling. I have repaired a lot of his landscape equipment , he has a lot broke down now may be able to work the thing out or some of it. The problem I have found trying to do that with some one is , They have so much in something , they wonder why you would want it if its to much for them to fix , they tend to think your trying to pull one on them, It cost them because they have to pay for parts and labor , you can fix it with parts and your own time, they pay Cat 12 thousand , you buy it fix it for maybe 3 and your unpaid time , they get upset cause you have a 11-12 thousand dollar machine that is running , they have already spent 10 out trying to save money and sell the machine and lose more money , it hard for them to wrap their head around it . Some how they feel they have got cheated and your the one running around on machine they couldn't fix. he has spent 3500 twice to rebuild an engine to other people plus new turbo and other parts , had the thing down 3 yrs, so maybe he has 10 or more , so he could have taken it to cat had his machine running making money all this time , instead of trying to save money or at least found a reliable shop to do a rebuild or replacement for less than Cat. I told him I didn't think I could fix it unless he was willing to pay machine shop cost to check head and block,crank , etc, and new complete overhaul kit , do it right, new oil pump, the works. the first guy that built the engine on start up, had not replaced oil pump , ran it for 40 mins, ruined it, re built it again with new oil pump, installed it back in loader it ran 10 ,hour aprox and down again , said it was turbo, replaced it , never would restart, broke starter trying to get it started , was told it was injectors, , head gasket was blown , took head from original engine installed it , but get this used old head gasket from original engine, was told didn't want to spend any more money , Duh Duh . That is when I was ask to look at it, found out it was hydro locked, blown head gasket and who knows what else. Just finding out A lot of stuff since my first post. Couldn't get much from anyone who work on it or the friend who owns it , because they don't want to own the mess. Found out last time it ran , it lost the turbo , got on engine oil , had to stop it with rag in intake after calling some one and told to remove air cleaner and shove it full of rags to stop air flow. I ask how long that took , 30 seconds I was told , I don't think so , call some one who took awhile to get to phone , tell them what was going on take off air cleaner shove rags in it , after he tried everything else before he called some one , I doubt 30 seconds , so now I figure everything is toast in both blocks, and like I said most likely all I have is a pile of junk engines and need to start completely over. Sorry for rambling on , It makes my head spin in circles wondering what someone is thinking at times ( myself included) options(1) replacement engine (2) rebuild (3) Yard Art (4) Come get Your Junk (5) Buy It Option 3 till option 2 Thanks have a great day , I know your heads are spinnin too ( The thing about working by yourself is there is no one else to blame for the mistakes )
Option 5. I have 3 of these engines. 1 is running in a ASV 4810,.New Perkins engine with 700 hrs on it,..no problems so far. I have the original cat/perkins engine in my shop,.. The balancer bolts came loose and the whole shebang broke in pieces incl oil pump.rest of the parts are good. I got a second engine out of a parts machine,..it spun the center main bearing and seized a piston. Both engines are rebuildable but repairing the main on the one alone is 1500 pop and a new balancer and oil pump another 2-3 grand,...not worth it. I have a rebuild kit and planning on making 1 engine using best parts of both. If i had know all this about these cat engines before buying the CTL i would've left it where it was.
Wow........if it were me I would walk away. The machine simply is not worth it. Your customer needs to walk away from it and consider it a lesson learned. CAT is not going to help. There are thousands of these motors that have blown. I know one guy here that got CAT to pay for a new motor. Certainly there are others I am sure, but if it is out of warranty and you don't have a yard full of CAT equipment, they are not likely to do anything for you (I am not dogging CAT, no other OEM would either). These MTL's cost money to run, motor issues aside. It is not a machine to own in my opinion for a home owner. It is hard enough when your a contractor and you actually make money with it to offset some off the costs.
Thanks for your reply, I think your pretty much on the mark. After I looked at some prices at Iron Planet and others I have to say I pretty much agree with you . There seems to be a lot of difference in asking prices which is normal, but it looks like 12 to 15 for a machine in the same shape as one I have sitting here. If you factor in the real cost of an engine 4k plus even on reman is lowest I could find. You have to pay installation unless you can do it your self. So it really does add up to more than its worth. I have looked at the 4bt *** mins swap on here and if I was going to buy it I might consider that because I have zero confidence in the 3024 in a 257b . Besides the factory flaws , I think in general its just not enough engine for the loader. Most loaders take a beating from workers who don't care because they aren't paying the bill. others seem to just land in hard places to work. Thats been my experience but most of my work has been in WV which is basically rock with a little dirt. All of the above considered unless a man could get it dirt cheap and do all the work himself . And I mean dirt cheap. He was offered 7k for it the way it sits , maybe he should take it and cut his losses , 7k on a new machine if he wants one I don't know. I could do all the work myself but don't really see putting even 7k in it and all the ti So I guess its OPTION (4) Come get your junk. One other thing I was told you had to have boom all the way up before cooler and radiator would raise far enough to latch in place when working on it, surely that is just on this one machine, something out of line. Thanks have a great one guys
Hello, new to forum, but have read a lot here. Very informative. My Cat 226 with the 3034 just died with 1400 hours, well maintained and owner driven since new. I see from this thread I am not alone. My machine is in very good shape otherwise, so it probably is worth fixing. Has anyone repowered with a Perkins 804? (Cat 3044). I was also considering the Perkins 104-22, have one of these in my chipper, think it might fit better. Has anyone figured how to move one of these machines with a dead engine?
Sorry to hear you've joined the group of us who have Perkins that Puked. lol. I still have one sitting in my yard waiting for owner to come pick it up and scrap it probably. As far as moving the machine Cat told me they pick them up with a large loader or fork lift and move them in and out of shop when not running. Said not to pull them very far because you can damage undercarriage or Pump. I told them that really leaves the average guy with a lot of choices. They also said not to pull side ways or at an angle. They suggested getting a rollback to pick it up and winch it up on bed then side it off where ever you want to unload it. That's what we did. The one I have is a 2005 257b about 1500 hrs I have been told. Its been through the ringer from the looks of it. I don't know what yr you have but most have an oil pump problem, and head gasket problem from the factory, hopefully yours may be under warranty and you can get some help but don't hold your breath from what I have read on here. Apparently Cat wants something like 10-12 grand for replacement or rebuild, again just going by what i have been told. You may be ahead of some of us I just noticed you have a 3034, most of the bad ones here have been 3024's.not sure that the oil pump and head gasket is a problem with them, but I would check. There a loads of guys on here with way more knowedge than I have .I am sure they will be weighing in to try to help you out. It would be a good ideal to state exactly what went on when engine failed , smoked , sounds, it made , did turbo blow if it has one , Is it out of machine , did it throw a rod ,etc. Is it rebuildable, I think some one will ask most of those questions. Good Luck, (the problem with working by yourself is you don't have anyone to blame for the screw ups , you have to own em ) :Banghead If I get a chance before the 257b leaves here I am going to look at what needs to be done to release the tracks so it can be moved, if I come up with anything I will post it
Thanks for the reply. Just got in from starting to unbolt the motor. Mine is a 3034(Perkins 704), non turbo, in a 2000 Cat 226. I have maintained it since new with Cat fluids and filters, following suggested maintenance schedule. I do my own machine and truck maintenance and repairs, have for decades. Apparently the 3034s had an oil pump problem similar to the 3024s. Too old to be under warranty. I noticed the oil alarm may have stayed on a few more beeps at start up when starting cold far a while, always stopped way before I ever moved the machine. Other than that, it made a bit of a clattering noise and stopped dead when I was loading granite stair tread at medium RPMs. The motor no longer turns freely, it will go 90 or so degrees either way and it binds up. The rebuilds apparently are the same bad design as the original, so I hesitate to put in the same motor at $8-10K. That is why I am considering a 804/3044. It is what they are using now, and is a Mitsubishi I think.
Have the motor out and in the shop. The #2 bearing is spun and the oil pump housing is broken. No other damage I can see. Motor will spin around now (I think the oil pump gear was binding), cylinder walls look good, valves work. I can get the crank, bearings, oil pump & gaskets for under $3k from Cat dealer. Or I can put in the 3044 mentioned in post above for around $6K. It is new surplus & should generally fit, but some modifications will be needed to fit in this machine. I can do either job myself, I suspect putting the new, non spec 3044 will take at least twice as long, but is a new motor. Have been wondering which way to go.
Something to consider, going back with a nonstandard engine is going to have a negative effect on resale, especially if you have to fabricate your way into making the nonstandard engine to work. I would fix the original engine as cheaply as possible and get out of it. Trade it, sell it, whatever it takes to own something else.
That is probably good advice. But am not concerned with resale value, it is not worth that much, it is 15 years old. I know its hour count is correct and it has been well maintained since new. Hydraulics are clean, etc. All the new stuff has electronic engine management DEF, DER, Regen cycles or whatever. Looking at my new mini skid with a 35 HP tier 4 yanmar, makes this old puking perkins look simple. Just want to put a motor back in that will get another 1,000 hours or so. Since this machine will mainly be in yard from now on, that should be over 10 years, by that time, it will probably not be a major concern.
Don't bother with a new crank. Find a good machine shop and they can grind yours or even weld it and grind it if needed. Expect to pay $300-400 for that service. Then you just need undersize main bearings. The oil pump might be a good part to source from Cat/Perkins, but the rest I would pick up on the aftermarket. Let's say one 8 hour day to pull the motor and strip the bottom end of the motor. Couple weeks for the machine shop and parts to come in. One 8 hour day to reassemble the bottom end and go ahead to set the valves. 4 hours to reinstall the motor. So, 20 hours x $75/hour = $1500. $400 for the crank work, $300 for the bearings, seals, gaskets, etc. Oil, coolant, etc maybe $200. So, I would think you could rebuild the bottom end of that motor for $2500 complete, including labor but not counting the oil pump because I have no idea what that might cost. At least, that's probably what I would charge...
The #2 crank journal is so scored, I figured it could not be ground. The connecting rod and bearing cap changed color, like they got very hot, probably should check for distortion. I did not know cranks could be welded on & reground, thanks for the info. The other journals are in good shape, the bearings are still good. My guess is a piece of oil pump clogged the oil hole on #2. The fact the rest of the motor is in such good shape is why I'd consider the rebuild. When I took it apart, I fully expected a thrown rod or something. The oil pump is about $350.
Yes the crank can be welded. I just did it on a Perkins. They will grind all the journals after welding, so you will have to use undersize rod bearings. They might also grind the mains depending on wear and if the crank warps when welding. Most likely you need to source a new rod if it got hot. The rod bearing bore is likely no longer round. Sometimes they can be honed to make them round again, but it depends how the rod is made. The last Perkins I did had serrated surfaces where the cap bolts to the rod and they could not be ground and therefore could not be honed, but mine were in good shape. Sounds like $3000 could have that motor running.
Thanks for the reply. I talked to a machinist this morning and he said the crank could probably be welded & ground, and also the connecting rod would be trashed. It is multi-colored, like an old case hardened gun. According to the repair manual, there were 3 different lengths of connecting rod that were selected when engine was assembled. Pretty tight piston height tolerances I guess. He also strongly recommended I tear down and tank the whole motor due to the metal shavings that would be in the oil passages. If I have to go that far, jamming the 3044 in there starts to look easier. The main job with that is the intake and exhaust are on opposite sides from the 3034, and front motor mounts have to be fabricated. It is supposed to bolt right up to the pump & rear motor mounts.
Bought a Mitsubishi S4S aka Perkins 804, same basic motor as cat 3044. There are some of these motors out there in the surplus market in this generic configuration. I know there will be challenges getting it to fit and not be too cobby, but I did see one mostly installed and working in another 226. Anyone who has done this, has some tips, or has a 236B, 246B etc parts machine they selling off of, please let me know. I'll post more if/when I make some progress.
looks like the old perkins had the plastic flex plate that is notorious for cracking. CAT has an improved metal flexplate. Did your new Mits/Perk come with a flex plate? Guess your exhaust has to be re-routed since it's opposite?
Good to know I can upgrade flex plate. I'll look for that, thanks. I think I nicked a few teeth when pulling the motor. This one has no flex plate, same spec flywheel & bell housing though. Exhaust & intake have to swap sides or be piped. Some other stuff seems like it will be a tight fit too. I'll probably do a dry run line up without the flex plate to see where the motor mounts land and if I have to move anything else. Angle of radiator drop down will probably have to come up a bit. The other one I saw was rigged with an electric fan to save space, but I'm going to try to use the original set up.
Well, the new motor is in. It was a bit of work to get everything to fit, and the radiator door does not go down to its original position due to taller motor, so I welded on a new latch and put in a higher stop. There was not an upgraded flex plate for my model (226) but the old one is fine. Machine runs & works great, has a little more power too, and a motor with a proven good track record. First picture is Cat 226 with new Mitsubishi S4S motor. Second picture is cracked oil pump on original Cat/Perkins motor, next to motor's id tag. My Cat dealer had very little in the way of comment when I told them of this. I did not ask for anything from them, but wondered why owners of this equipment were not notified of known defective part, so it could be replaced before engine was destroyed. I have lost a lot of faith in Caterpillar Equipment and their dealer Southworth Milton. I was considering getting a new or used track loader form them, but their salesman did not follow though even though the office knew I was in the market. So I now have a repaired 226 and a new Ditch Witch mini trac, probably better off. All the years of paying 30%+ premium for yellow Cat branded filters and fluids did not help me out with the defective engine. Pretty sure Wix filters and Rotilla will do just as well, especially at the intervals I change them. No more brand loyalty for this chump!
Looks good, was it a pain to get in there or did it go easier than you had thought.
It went in pretty easy, rear motor mounts bolt right up. I did grind a little off the top of bell housing so I would not have to move a couple bolts that secure the hydraulic lines. But after it was in, routing the exhaust was critical, as the manifold is on wrong side. Had to fabricate new front(of motor) mounts, re position intake manifold, go to a smaller battery, etc. Added another couple pictures showing new position of radiator door. It still slants down some, so coolant flow still works.
Glad to see you got it done and it worked out ok. I'm sure you have a good amount of time in it. The guy that I know who does the transplants routes the exhaust towards the back gate, then over and dumps it into the back of the muffler via a hole saw. Some of the Cat models have the mufflers on the driver's side, but it would be a pain to swap everything. I've always appreciated machines like Komatsu that have the manifolds and mufflers wrapped to keep the engine bay temps down which helps keep the hydros cooler. Same guy also relocates the hinges on the coolers for better clearance and to maintain the slope, but it cuts into the rear sight line. Easily fixed though with a back up camera. Intake filter housing was in front and was kind of a pain to service since the cab had to be tilted for the best access. I would not have guessed the flex plates were different depending on the model of the machine. Seems like the application would be specific to the engine - I think he's used the upgraded flexplate on the 242 which I though was the same block as yours. Hopefully your swap will last you many trouble free hrs.
Thanks, yes, it took a lot of time, a lot of it figuring best route for things. Would take less time if I did it again, like any (hopefully) one off project. I did consider repositioning muffler and adding hinge height also. I tried to stick to the idea of doing everything as simply as possible & not buying or making a lot of new parts. Some of the hydraulic lines had to be moved. Actually have considered a back up camera anyway, but the way I did it, visibility is not that changed. It never was that good. Also have some muffler/exhaust wrap and heat tape on the way from summit racing to try to keep things cooler due to tight hose clearances.
Isn't it obvious why the Salesman wasn't excited about selling you one? See all the above... Maybe He's really your best friend and is doing you a favor without your knowing it?
An update on the above motor replacement. It has worked great, except apparently I under torqued the bolts that hold the motor to the main pump. The gap backed off and the plastic flex plate, or "flange" as Cat calls it, got stripped at the drive gear. Had to take motor out again and replace, on a job site this time. The "flange" cost $170, and the job took 8 to 10 hours with all the driving back and forth from job to shop. These bolts are very hard to get to and there is not enough clearance to get a normal wrench or socket to them. Cat must use a special tool, or do the job with the cab off. I did see one post where a guy paid $3,000 to a dealer for this repair. Its a pain, but not that much of a pain. Anyway, between a ground down socket (21MM, if I recall) and a modified box wrench I was able to torque them pretty well. Applied a lot of lock tite too. Also going to lift cab and check this periodically from now on.
Saw this in the other thread but thought I would post it here. I have customers with variations of this engine under 3 brand names (none Cat) going back to the 80s. I have one junker in my yard but it is the hot rod turbo aftercooled and where it came from makes me wonder about if it was abused. Otherwise they have been good, all still running. Including a Chinese one built in the early 2010s. I wonder if there was a bad run in the early 2000s? Or if it was just the Cat ones that had problems? I'd like to see if we can discern a little more about the pattern of failure. I am inclined to like this engine otherwise.
.That "ping" could've been a bolt(1 of 6 10 mm bolts)breaking that mounts the balancer to the bottom of the block resulting in the balancer breaking up and. The balancer drives the oil pump,..lack of oil does the rest, seizure of the crank and piston is the result. I had that happen to one of my 3054's , 3 of the six bolts had run loose, the fourth one broke
Bought a 2005 236 CAT with a 3024 ct engine with 1100 hours that looked good and had the original tires that matched. The owner said the first motor was replaced by Cat at 500 hours because of a overturn. He said a new 3024 turbo engine was put in that fit a later model and had more power.The oil was real dirty and I asked about it and was told oil changes were at 500 hours like the book said. All the filters looked good as did the seat. I bought this and thought since it was a cat and perkins, it would be ok. I ran this about a hundred hours and it always used oil and got the oil dirty after you changed it. It never had a lot of power, but I had never run one before. One day while loading round bales it started knocking and locked up. I was running it a little above idle. I don't have a lot of money, so I pulled the motor and tore it down. The breather hose was loose from the turbo and the turbo full of dirt and bad. The head gasket was blown into the number 2 pushrod hole. The lifter was gunked up and had a flat spot on it. The crank was stopped up with junk and the number 4 rod bearing was melted. I got the crank turned .010 for 115.00. I have the block bored .020 and honed. I can get a kit for 800.00 with pistons. A oil cooler is 200.00 and oil pump is 250.00,turbo is 300.00,rod 60.00 and lifter 15.00. These parts are aftermarket, not cat. I don't think the parts could be much worse quality than the Cat parts. The same Chinese probably made both of them. I am going to grind the valves and put it back together. I hope to use it to build some fence before she blows again. I was told that these same engines were in a 170 New Holland. A neighbor rebuilt one and said the parts were over 10,000.00 a few years ago.
I find this thread interesting and there is potentially good information in it. I think it important to note that there are many of these motors going strong out there without having these failures. I often wonder, when seeing threads like this on-line, how much weight to put on them if using them to try and decide if I would avoid the subject engine/machine or if these might be isolated incidents. It seems that these forums often expose the issues while those that are not having them don't feel motivated to post (no upset-no need to vent). This is easily understandable but may not fairly express the majority of ownership experiences. I'm not trying to minimize the upset or negative impact to those who have experienced said failures. For them (as it would be for me if I had such a failure) I'm sure it's very real, significant, and will have considerable weight when thinking about buying the next machine. In the spirit of the intent (to try to help others possibly avoid the failures and to somehow benefit those who may have already had those experiences) of the thread I would like to know if there is a way to consolidate and organize some of the pertinent information so as to offer the most value possible for anyone who would try to avoid experiencing said failures, possibly prevent them if they already own the subject machine/s or engine/s, or to help find a way to repair/replace said components in the best possible way. Maybe if we can catalog/organize this information the moderators might want to "sticky" this information for easy reference to anybody looking for this information. To that end I request that those of you who have had such experience contribute your information. I propose to offer some questions that i think are pertinent. Please feel free to add anything that you feel I may have missed and lets see what we can come up with. 1) What model/s of this engine are having failures? 2) Are these engine failures exclusive to Cat (seems like based on this thread)? 3) I have seen a few different engine names given for the same engine (i.e. Perkins, Mitsubishi, Cat). Please clarify which engine/s are subject, or known to have, such failures. 4) Along this/these engine line/s is there a range of serial numbers that can identify units that are susceptible to said failures? Have they been upgraded by the OE? If so is there a date or serial number that began said upgrade? 5) Are all failures oil suction tube related? 6) Is there a fix/upgrade (hopefully economical) for this that will prevent these failures? 7) Post failure, what has been the best remedy for repair (i.e. engine repair, replacement)? 8) What is the best source for replacement engines and/or repair parts? 9) What is/are your post repair experiences? Do you still have the subject machine or did you unload it? If you retained ownership has the repair/replacement been worth it for you? How many hours of service since repair/replacement? 10) What else?
I have a Perkins version of this engine turbo aftercooled high horsepower in my junk pile somebody gave me. I am now interested, will have to pull it apart and see what went wrong with it internally.
I know for a fact that this forum and many others are regularly monitored by the manufacturers and the information is logged and cross checked against warranty or policy claims made at the franchised dealer networks. There is a search function available for anyone looking to do pure research using this site. Generally I would not be in favor of doing the research on a volunteer basis that the manufacturers are getting paid to compile anyway. People presenting the facts of their experiences in a public forum being anonymous prevents to a large extent the legal system from being used to prevent the dissemination to that type of information. The other side of this is that the manufacturers generally know of the problems and have programs to help defray the costs of these premature failures. The way that it works though is on a fix as fail schedule. If the problem happens while the machine is in the warranty period it is no problem to repair it. If the problem happens after the warranty period the issue becomes a policy review and getting things fixed becomes a bit of a problem. Presenting the information provided here will many times provides some leverage in loosening up those policy discussions.
just put a new engine (off ebay) in our cat 232 loader fuel pump housing timing housing blew up same old deal as all of above posts --2001 hrs
I'm not sure what you are saying here. Regardless of weather, or not, the MFR compiles this info is mute because they are not sharing it. I'm suggesting something informal (no names or addresses) to help readers sort through the info of this thread and the multiple member experiences that generated it (and any others who may yet contribute). Many have already been willing to tell us their experience. Are you suggesting that we are not somewhat anonymous here. Are you suggesting that the MFRs would track us down with cease and desist orders? I suppose it's possible but I doubt they'll put much energy into it. That just might backfire for them and legitimize the claims. I have posted some, what some may consider, pretty damning information and they have never reached out to me or, at least to my knowledge, told the site administrators to close a thread. I didn't do so to create a black eye for anyone but rather to help educate my fellow consumers and maybe one, or more, of our community might offer a viable solution to the issue. I felt that I posted what took place and I hope that I am protected by freedom of speech to do so. As it relates to your second paragraph it seems that most of said failures have not been under warranty (for whatever reason). To me this makes the possible information even more pertinent to the consumer. I apologize if I did not interpret your post as you intended. I was under the impression that these failures were limited to older machines (B series and older). Am I wrong in thinking this? Was this failure related to the oil pick up tube or something different? Which engine is in your 232?
I ain't blowed up the one in my ASV RC30 yet... 2500 hours and counting (knock on wood), alls I have done is change the oil, about 1x a year, fuel filter and non pressure hose on the fuel intake, and year afore last, I had the top gasket on the inj pump spring a leak, so I pulled the pump, and had it rebuilt. Motor on mine is a cat 3013 A/R 177-4706, serial#4xd00805. same motor as a Perkins 403d15, AFAIK... I am the only operator, so maybe that makes the difference...
1) My engine is a 3024C with a turbo 2) My neighbor had a 170 New Holland with the same motor that had the oil passage burst on the outside of the motor and lost oil and locked up. 3) My engine had CAT in real big letters, Perkins in small letters and Shibaura in tiny letters I could hardly see. My engine was made by Shibaura (N844LT} as was the New Holland 170. 4) Mine was a later motor, as it was replaced at 500 hrs. 5) My oil tube had a washer welded on it and had no problem with the tube. I know of 3 people in my small area with Cat skid steers that had the oil pump break and ruin their motors with less than 1000 hrs. 6) I think the head gasket problem has been fixed with a better quality gasket. If the oil gets really dirty and has blow by, I will pull the head. The breather tube coming loose from the turbo can be checked daily. I don't know what to do about the oil pump breaking. 7) I am trying to fix my motor myself. One neighbor spent over 12000.00 on getting his fixed. 8) I am going to use Maxiforce parts on mine. I am getting mine from a machine shop, but Ebay has them. 9) I haven't got mine fixed yet. 10) I have been running tractors since I was 10 years old and have some that I have more than 10,000 hours on with almost no problems.
W Which motor is the Cat 3013? I've never heard of that one.
What machine is this motor from? Shibaura is a new name for me. Is this another name for the Mitsubishi? Which machine was your engine in? I'm also wondering how we went from Perkins to Mitsubishi (and now Kubota). I am aware that Cat has owned Perkins for some time. In fact I have a 3054 (in a Cat 416C) with over 12,000 hours on it. This is a Perkins engine (made for Cat with Cat logos on it). I ma ls aware of Cat having, at least, some ownership in Mitsubishi but cant see how the engines in question were branded Mitsubishi when they are Perkins. Someone please shed some light.
Shibaura is an old name i have only seen it once before on the hobby farm i used to take care off , we had a prototype plaqued 1973 ford 1000 tractor and that little 2 cylinder was made by them i think ford used that engine till early 80's , only reason we had it rebuilt is previous caretakers liked ether. glow plugs had failed and it wound up having 4 out of 6 compression rings cracked. im curious on the mitsubishi also i remember a few small cat equipment peices having them in it most were perkins i was not aware of when the kubota switch happened .
it was a 3024 non turbo sir
DGODGR, The point of my post is that what you are asking for is a compilation and interpretation of info concerning certain types of engine. That is a whole lot of work to ask someone to do "voluntarily". If you have a question about a certain type of engine you can run a word search and usually find any info put forth on here. If you wanted to do that and compile the information for all to see it would be appreciated by all. As to the issue of a manufacturer trying to shut down information on this and other sites you might ask some of the coordinators about a manufacturer that claimed copyright infringement for posting diagnostic information on one of their machines. I can tell you from personal experience there were lots of problems with the Perkins/Cat engines installed in the small frame skid steers, 216 size. Cat knew about the issues and alerted the dealerships with fix as fail statements. I have seen those models of engines last over 6,000 hours with no problems also. The difference from my perspective was that the oils were changed at 250 hour intervals instead of the factory recommended 500 hours. There was also some speculation of the PCV systems dumping contaminates back into the air intake systems causing premature wear rates on the rings, pistons and cylinder walls. I'm not aware of the Mitsubishi engines being installed in the smaller Cat skid steers at all. Kubota engines were installed in the last few years on machines sold in this area. The Mitsubishi engines were installed in the mini excavators all along and I know of no consistent issues that could be blamed on manufacturer's defect in materials or workmanship.
The Cat/Perkins and Cat/Mitsubishi lines are and always have been completely different. Because the Mitsubishi partnership was never really publicised, for a long time ony people "in the trade" were aware of it and the public assumed that they were Cat engines. I think the confusion arises because Cat made a big public deal out of their acquisition of Perkins, so now someone will open an engine compartment, see a small yellow engine with a Cat badge and go "Oh yeh, one of those ****** Perkins things" and leave it at that. The Mitsys have been around for a long time and I think are a good reliable lump, and the Kubotas look to be shaping up pretty good as well.
I have never seen one of these with the Cat 3013 badge on them but I have seen them with the Cat 30x4x sticker and lots with Perkins and lots with Shibaura. Here is my take on it. IHI Shibaura has been making this basic engine since the 80s or maybe the 70s. It seemed like a solid platform, have a few still running from that time frame. At some point Perkins needed a smaller engine than they built themselves so they started to buy and/or license build the Shibaura engine. Then at some point before or after this Caterpillar corp. took full control of Perkins corp. and so if Cat needs an engine this small they just source it from their subsidiary and change the paint color and put a different label on it. Perkins model number is 40wx-yy where w is number of cylinders, x is a letter where D is the current series and C was last built some time ago, yy is the displacement with no decimal point so 11 is 1.1L, 15 is 1.5 and 22 2.2 the most common. Cmark, what about Kubota engines, have not heard about them yet.
Shibaura is a Chinese engine company that built the Cat engines that give all the trouble. I talked with a Maxiforce rep about parts and he said all the 3024 engines were made in China by Shibaura. My engine had this written on it in tiny letters. The big print gives and the little print taketh away. We put the engine in the hot tank and wiped out all the printing. Ebay has turbos listed for them and has the Cat name and says they are Shibaura engines.
Correction. Shibaura is a Japanese company, in fact it is the city in Japan. IHI is their other name and you will find their turbochargers on many different brands. However, most of the Perkins/whatever brand we have been discussing here, that I have seen, have been built in a factory in Wuxi, China for at least the last 10 years.
3013 and 3024 are three and four cylinder versions from the Perkins 400 series. The 3054 is from the 1000 series and totally different. It's the 400 series which had a high failure rate in the early days. The ones that I've been involved with had failures caused by oil pump problems.
Small, emissions controlled engines which, so far, I've seen in the bigger D series skid steers and E series HEXs of around the 8T size. Quiet, reliable and leak-free so far.
More information here; https://www.caterpillar.com/en/company/global-footprint/apd/china.html
I've heard a Shibaura is similar to a Perkins (original Perkins) or possibly a Perkins built under license. Ford used them in their skid steers that were made by Thomas in the 80's. Obviously Ford didn't want to sell machines with Kubota engines. Interestingly enough Case made the 1838 with a Kubota engine because users really liked the Kubota's in other brands of skid steers.
It is the other way around, the engines from the 80s were Shibaura only and then Perkins started to buy them and put their name on them but the pedigree is obvious when you look at the engine. The Perkins front cover is different and the injection pump is a little different but the rest of the engine is almost identical to the classic Shibaura. Also Perkins put the classic English CAV fuel filter and pump on it, not a fan of them but it is what it is.
WHAT!!?? NOT a fan of the CAV pump?? are you some kinda Commie?? Lol Those pumps are the simplest, sophisticated inj. pumps ever made.. & will run, + or - a bucket of dirt.. Now the plumbing was a weak spot. but the inj. pump itself was & still is, a masterpiece of simplicity.. IMO as to the other posts about mergers, Cat & Perkins STILL have their battles.. weather you call them> Perkapillars or Cat-a-Perks.. when it comes down to diagnostic computer work, the systems STILL wont talk to each other.. & neither will the guy on the phone, when you call their hot-line about tech. questions.. lol All you get is> that's a stupid Perkins problem, WE don't support THAT.. So you call Perkins & get the SAME THING, just turned around.. its a nitemare from a mechanics stand point... when all YOU WANT to do is HELP a customer & keep "their" product on the market.. running preferably.. BTW> that last sentence goes A LONG WAY when talking to a technical hot-line.. "hey buddy, you might have told that to the last 49 people you talked to but>> ALL I WANT to do is.. bla bla bla... & KEEP YOUR PRODUCT on the market".. & "maybe" we can ALL have a job..
I don't have anything against the CAV pump. But I see precious few of them. Mostly on real old stuff. In my market (generators) the old stuff gets cycled out for the most part. Actually the Cat/Perkins/Shibaura have 3- and 4-cylinder PFR pumps driven off the cam shaft. What Perkins did when they bought the platform was to keep the pump more or less the same but change all the plumbing over to the CAV style. That is what I don't like, the filter with the silly bolt through it mainly. Straight out of 1960. The Shibauras had a spin-on and they thought the other one was an improvement somehow.
My pump looks like a little Bosh P pump and is driven by four lobes on the engine cam shaft and has a spin on Cat filter mounted on the skid steer. The crank on this engine comes out the rear end of the block. I still have a ** tractor from the early 1970s with a 4203 Perkins with the old style filters and CAV pump. It always started good. I thought a Perkins would be good for a long time. I didn't understand it was not really a Perkins. A Shibaura N844LT is the same as a Perkins 404 C-22 and a Cat 3024 CT. I found several pictures on the web of these engines. I don't know my serial number because the lye tank took all the numbers off the motor. I may have written it down, but haven't found it yet.
I am sorry, I saw a tag that said made in China on a Shibaura and thought they were a Chinese company.
Shibaura is a Japanese company that makes mainly small machinery such as tractors and ride on mowers. They do a decent Diesel engine and a lot of small machines from Massey Ferguson and New Holland are rebadged Shibaura machines. I think the problematic Perkins motors were built in China with pretty poor quality control by whoever owned Perkins at that time. Like many things made in China you can have something made really cheap or really good, choose which one you want. AusDave
Seems like after Cat took over Perkins the trouble started , never heard of much trouble with Perkins before that, farmers loved them. Steve
fasteddie, you're very fortunate that the #4 rod didn't exit through the side of the block, that's usually the outcome during catastrophic failure. The point of failure in my machine was indeed the oil pump, the oil pump is molded into the front cover and has an aluminum plate that covers the pump gear in the housing. The plate is what failed, it simply broke, in my opinion it wasn't designed thick enough for the pressure it has to deal with. During my research on the web I found this to be a common problem. While you have the engine apart I'd pay close attention to this plate and if possible have one made that is thicker. If I recall correctly the housing mating surface is plat and should be fairly simple to do. DGODGR, I've had some of the same questions as you. I've asked every Cat resource I have whether this part has been improved and have been met with silence, it's very unsettling to think this could happen again. My research showed only some of these engines were made in China but I wasn't able to learn how that could be designated. The engine in my machine is a Cat branded Perkins, I've been unable to find the Cat engine number on it anywhere. I believe it was used in the first three years of production of the skid steer line in both turbo and natural versions and Cat then began using the Mitsubishi engine you mention. I can also state I have an in depth knowledge of machinery and their inner workings and what is abusive. I check the oil before every start up, allow proper warm up AND cool down before shutting off. If this wasn't a design flaw then it was certainly a problem with the end manufacturer following the design plans.
Hello guys, I use to work for a cat dealer , but yesss there were issues retaining to the earlier Perkins motors that were in the skid steers, Was multiple times customers brought them in that were rattling or slobbering oil, Boss man told the techs working on them to take them out by the fence an let them run at high idle an walk away an wait for the gernade to go off, Basically the dealer just wanted it to self destruct then install new motors an file for warranty, I’ve seen the motors actually go out as early as 200 hrs on them, not sure what the deal was with the skid steer motors, we never saw other compact equipment that run the Perkins give as many fits as the skid steer line did. But since then it’s been 10 yrs ago a I build a few a yr. I get my parts from a place in Valdosta Ga. called equipment parts supply (229-244-0016 ). Ask for George. Tell him that Chris from LaGrange told ya bout them. They have helped me multiple times on these motors an kept me from going to cat an paying triple the price, I buy all my engine kits for all makes An models an undercarriage from them, you name it they got it, Goood folks down there
Hi Everyone. I didn't find this site until recently. so, with that in mind, Here's my story; I made a deal last week to buy a Cat skid steer. I ran the serial on one of the sites that could tell you some info. Says i'm looking at a 2010 skid loader with the 3024c engine. It is a 232b model. The unit is not running, but it looks like there is water in the oil. Some minor parts have been removed, nothing removed from the engine but the air cleaner housing. Other than the engine and some minor items like seat cover and rubber boots that cover the hand controls, it is a very nice looking unit. The engine is actually very clean on the outside and I looked everywhere I could for any block damage, none found. Talked with several folks and they all seemed to say it blew a head gasket. I'm no stranger to auto repair, or engine repair/rebuilding, but this is all gas engine related work. This would be my first diesel adventure. I'm buying this unit for 3K. Only looked on ebay for engine rebuilding kits and that is in the 1k range. And yes, I know there will be surprises as I dig into this job. So with all the info I provided above, what do you guys think? Am I doomed for failure? Is there a chance for success ? Should I just take the money and invest in liquor stocks? Like the guy says "what could go wrong." Thanks---Mike
According to the info I have the last 232B built was some time in May 2007....... Do you have a Serial Number..? Last 8 digits SCHxxxxx possibly..?
Is it local.?? U said its not running.. will it turn over?? if yes, try to do a compression test.. or at least loosen the lines at the injectors or at the pump & see if the inj. pump is pumping.. if it is GOOD.. if not, your looking at a pump & injector o/h too.. about another grand.. depending on condition.
I think I hit a wrong button, but anyway the last 8 digits are SCH03895. I'll check back a little later. Thanks---Mike
Well for once the data let me down ......... I'll know in future not to place 100% reliance on the information from that source. SCH03895, date of build 3st March 2010. Sorry 'bout that...... A useless piece of information that may interest only me. It was one of the last 10 or so SCH-prefix machines built before the model was phased out. Last one off the line was SCH03997 on 9th June 2010.
So does that mean the factory used up all the left over parts to clear off the shelves?
Well, we picked up and brought my skid steer to my shop today. My friend is a local country boy with a lot of good common sense and a great rigger and has access to a lot of equipment for moving big farm equipment. All things went well overall. Only challenge was unloading. But that got resolved. I really didn't get much else done today due to taking meds and out in the bright 95 degree sun. I did go thru a gallon of water. Are there any places to look on the skid steer for numbers or information? Only one I saw was the serial number plate. Thanks---Mike
Hello, I’m guessing someone saw ur post am flipped it over to me, I work for a cat dealer for yrs, very familiar with these motors. If help is steel needed please feel free to email me an we exchange phone numbers , be glade to help in anyway. I have outside sources for parts too. [email protected]
Sorry spell check crap on cell phones, I use to work for a cat dealer for 8 yrs then was laid off , been on my Own since
With the Serial Number you should be able to get everything you need in the way of parts & service information. A Parts Manual and an Operator & Maintenance Manual might be a good place to start. You can download them from Cat - https://catpublications.com/ When the popup appears click on "Continue as Guest". For Parts Manual type SEBU4633 and click Search. You should see the illustration below ………. for an Operator Manual the document reference is SEBU8385. As you can see the Parts Manual is $89 for a pdf download, the Operator/Maintenance Manual SEBU8385 is $46.
Nige, I appreciate your effort to help, but I surely must be doing something wrong. I tried to do exactly as you stated, but I never got the screen as shown in your post. In fact, I went thru about 20 pages on the cat site after entering SEBU4633 and never did see anything closely to 'SEPB4633-39 232B2 Skid Steer loader - Parts Manual." Any assistance would be appreciated. Thanks---Mike
Replace the 'U' with a 'P' in SEBU... Then it will work.
Well caught Ron. Apologies, a typo on my part. I must have been thinking O&M Manual (SEBUxxxx) when I typed the details above regarding the Parts Manual - the correct document reference is SEBP4633. Although in my defence the screen shot I posted above does actually show the correct document reference number SEBP4633-29...…….
Does this parts manual show pics of all systems, drives, and electrical diagrams with all the device/part names and part numbers? I'm looking for a manual that will show exploded views of most/all systems. I want to see how it assembled before I take it apart or know when something is missing.
Well wiring diagrams are usually found in Service Manuals, not parts books. Below is one of the pictures out of the parts book, each of the numbers in the picture will have a description and part number. This is one page for the governor of the fuel system.
Ken’s already answered one part of your question. An Electrical Schematic is easy to come by if you post up a machine Serial Number. A number of members can download them in pdf and email them to you.
Sorry I should have read further up the thread. I have the correct electrical schematic for SCH03895. Send me your email address by PM (click on my username and start a conversation) and you're welcome to a copy.
Thanks for sending me the PDF of the wiring Nige! Mike
Does anyone on here have the Technical Specs for the Rebuild including all measurements and tolerances?
just rebuilt replacement 3054e . here is what I do not like about 3054e NO lock taps on rod bearings ! rods get out of round with heat and hours and in Minnesota below zero start ups and if it's got !5/40 is real bad . Original engine junk rod bearing out and then broke crank and locked up .it was December and being used a below zero. customer said was using 10/30.Just my thoughts. rebuilt 3056 last year and 10,000 hours and crank polished and cylinders hone at machine shop to std. dry liners. Had rod bearing locks
I’ve read a number of your posts and appreciate your wit and humor lol!
Lol.. THAT was before I became old and jaded.. my wife bought me a t shirt that says, “I used to be a people person, BUT people ruined it”.., Lol
Just came across this thread. I'm literally thinking of doing the exact opposite swap. My 3044 (246B)is worn and i was given a perkins 3054 , and I'm glad to hear the engine mounts lined back up , I hope the pump does too. I'd really like an original 3044 block to be honest but in Barbados they're almost impossible to get .if you know of anyone will to donate plzz share at [email protected]
The bell housing bolted right up. I had to fabricate the front motor mount. Maybe your machine is differnent though since it is a different original motor. Good luck. My machine is still running strong. One other bit of advice; put locktight on bell housing bolts. Mine worked loose during first year and shattered the flex plate, so I had to take out motor again. Put it back the second time w locktight and torqued it down as much as I could given the awkward position of some of the bolts, has been OK since.