Hi everyone I’m a small excavation outfit looking at adding a dump truck to my small fleet. With what I’ve paid in trucking in the last month or two we could have a decent truck half paid off. I found a truck that is spec’d how I want it, 80’s Ford L9000 with a bad 3406B and an EF 15sp.Price is good. I’ve also found a Western Star with a strong 3406B and a EF 13sp. Truck appears to be an OTR tractor that was converted to a dump truck. Conversion looks to be very homemade and I don’t know that it would pass DOT. My thought is to pull the motor from the Western Star and install in the Ford. Anyone ever do something similar to this? Anyone have any opinions or experiences? I’m not a mechanic by any means. I have done a few engine and tranny swaps on our light duty and medium duty (f550) work trucks, so I have a little experience under the hood, but I understand this is a whole different ball game. Just looking for feedback before I commit to buying anything. Thanks everyone
It's all mechanical so there's really no mystery there if you're used to lifting something and moving things around that heavy and bolting up heavy iron you can do it. The engine's about 3500. I also happen to be driving an l9000 with a 3406b/15 speed I'm pretty happy. I would plan on a new clutch while you have it apart there's just no reason not to at least give it a hard look.
The work sounds straightforward. The condition of the engine in the Western Star is a big gamble. Maybe have a truck shop check it out. At the least, it’s 35 years old. Have Junior check it out and have Earl ride with you.
Man, @Coaldust you must be on the mend. You keep working that movie like a dog working an old shoe Edit: it looks like he hits the frame rail but I just imagine an actor throwing his duffel bag right on that greasy ass fifth wheel
“ain’t no recaps” lol
Guilty! It’s such a corny movie. RIP Patrick Swayze. That chase scene where he downshifts while pushing the rig uphill with the brakes dynamited, cracks me up every time. And he says “ There ain’t nothing like a Caterpillar engine!”. And the sound producer got his engines mixed up and his Pete is making Detroit 8v-92 noises for the rest of the movie. Great stuff.
Are the 3406's both air to air, or air to water cooled? The 3406's in the fords set on a angle, the western star will sit upright in the frame. I don't know if the ford has a different front case, or its just a bracket, but I think the rear is a different flywheel housing, because of the angle. The air to air/ water and the offset motor would be two things I would look at. You would also need to check torque ratings on your two transmissions, the 3406 was offered in different torque ratings.
Good point. And that Western Star could be a PEEC engine. Wouldn’t that be a mess to swap over?
Rear structure has to be swapped, the 15spds are either 12515 or 14615 if both rigs are built in the 80's. 15715 late 80's early 90's. Pan also needs to be removed to swap rear structure. All other accessories will bolt up. You will need a rear main seal installation tool. Plus remember to remove rear seal wear ring from crank. Engine weighs 3,200, trans 780. Install a new clutch # 308-925-20 easy pedal Eaton with SB200 clutch brake. But first thing have a percentage of blow-by test done on the engine you want to use, you could be trading a turd for a turd.
Just fix the Star, it's a far superior truck for dump truck service, unless that Ford was blessed by Jesus when it was built.
Watch the fan center on the radiator to . I just did a swap from 1 W 900 to my W900 the donor didnt have the idler type belt tensioner as mine did on the front timing cover. Ended up machining an adaptor plate to fit on the timing cover rather than swap rads or timing covers. It works well ,but was just another bunch of work.
thank you thank you thank you!!! That is such good info and exactly what I was hoping for, all the potential issues to be brought to my attention. To be honest I don’t know the answer to most of the questions you guys asked as I haven’t seen the Ford and the WS just briefly. I think I’m going to look at the Ford tonight or tomorrow and i will find out. Amazing info, thanks guys.
First Pic shows the removable cover plate that the idler bolts on the original engine. Second shows the adapter plate i made to fit over the front cover on the donor engine. Kind of a welder fabricator fix done by an amature truck mechanic. Id still be glad to hear what i should have done by those in the know.
Hi again Got a bit more info, hoping I can pick your brains again So I was able to visually inspect both trucks. The WS has a visible sticker on its valve cover that indicated it’s a 4MG series. My limited research shows that’s an air-to-air cooled engine. The Ford was not so easy. No sticker on the valve cover. I spent an hour crawling over that engine and couldn’t find a stamped number either. I think I know where it is but the exhaust sits right in the way. The best I could find was an emissions sticker up top that indicated the engine was built in 1988. The truck itself was also built in 88 so that checks out. If so, I believe that means it’s also a 4MG. Does that sound right? Next question, @crane operator mentioned air to air/air to water. What little I’ve read says that air to air was introduced in 86ish and that the 4MG were all air to air. Is there a quick way to tell if a unit is air to air or air to water? Does the presence of an inter cooler/CAC indicate its air to air? Thanks guys
Charge air cooler ahead of the fan is in fact "air to air". Intercooler or water to air typically in the intake manifold.
Air to air will have pipes from the turbo to the cooler in front of the radiator and back to the intake, intercooler will have one pipe from the turbo over the valve cover into the top of the intake.
First pic is the intercooler set up, second shows intake for a charge air cooler. Just like JPV says - its either straight from the turbo, or goes up through a charge air cooler.
Moved the water pump accessory cover from one to the other. I just scraped two covers and two idlers. If it's 86 and newer 4MG up it's air to air ending with 3JZ series full mechanical 1992. PEEC engines were primarily 3KC.
Hey @lantraxco , @JPV @crane operator , @Truck Shop ,(and everyone else who chimed in) thank you guys all so much!!! Such good info on here, Really appreciate the help and responses. Couple more questions if that’s ok: So the Ford is intriguing to me because it’s pretty heavy specs- 40k rears, 20k front, double frame, two drop axles and a big box(guessing 17ft). I just need a truck to haul gravel, dirt, and demolition debris in a 30 mile radius, I’m thinking the bigger the better(less trips). The guy is asking 5k, thinking he’s got some wiggle room, so maybe 4K. I crawled all over it today and found a couple problem areas This is the very back of the frame, behind the back axle both left and right side. The crack is about 10-12 inches long And it’s got some rust in between the double frame as you can see. No cancer, major rust, or other cracks that I found but this stuff was concerning to me. So if you were looking to buy a truck and saw this, would you still consider buying it and addressing the issue(can it be addressed?) or turn and run? Secondly, while crawling around the engine bay, I noticed that the same thing that is a pain in my neck on my Super Duty pickups is also a problem on this truck-the back end of the engine sits under the cab cowling! On my Super Duty’s it makes things like pulling turbos or pulling the motor more complicated. Anyone ever worked on one of these L9000s and had issues with access to stuff because of the engine sitting back and tilted to one side? I ran a T800 for years for an outfit I worked for, I realized today how convenient having everything out in the open is. a penny for your thoughts! Thanks guys
Dot man will write you up for the cracked frame, if he sees it, and if he wants to see it. If he wants to see it, you're out of service. Truck can be reframed, truckshop is the real expert that posts here on things like that. If the cabs is all rusty on the ford (they have steel cabs) its likely not worth reframing. Rust jacking is common on double frame trucks from anywhere that uses salt or road treatment. There's no way to stop it permanently, and rust never sleeps. As far as the engine under the firewall, its the price you pay for a shorter hood and better visibility. I've never pulled a cab for access, like you do on the ford pickups. I'd rather pull a engine than pull a cab, because of all the wiring.
My $1.98 (two cents with inflation and taxes): No ford. If you would have to reframe it, buy something closer to ready to run instead, put the money to better use. Lastly, if you just have to have the Ford (again, just say NO) bob the frame off at the spring hangers and figure it out from there, whether that means different bed pivots, or shortening the bed, or whatever. If you haven't figured out my opinion yet, Western Star and others are still in business, Ford tops out at 750 these days don't they? Parts will be an issue.
Agree with fixing with WS. I have nearly the same setup 92 WS 3406B with 13 speed and it's a great truck. For the cost and hassle of swapping the motor i'd bet the money and time is better spent just fixing the WS, and with those frame issues on top of needing an engine, that Ford probably isn't worth fixing, the cab is likely probably quite rusty too. Engine on mine is under cab also, but i'm sure not as bad as the Ford with those short hoods. Or scrap both trucks and just keep looking until you find something that works better. Whatever you figure you'll spend in repairs, figure a lot more because it's going to be. If the truck has been in a place with salt etc you're likely much better off with a single frame truck.
You can get a good A model for $10-15k or a B model for $12-15k. Isn't your time worth something?
That frame job is not worth tackling. maybe if you already owned the truck, but not to buy that much misery.
Forget it-not worth messing with. The frame is the skeleton of a truck when it is arthritic there is no good pain medicine for it. I just looked at two dump trucks for a friend of mine for his son. The first was a 99 W900 KW-All wheel seals leaking on drives, Manual slacks, Exhaust system was rotten, All eight air bags needed replaced, Steer axle was 12,000 lb-king pins and speing bushings/pins were all toast, drop axle was not suitable for a dump-trailing arms too short which causes too much caster. Clutch was about gone and the dump box was fatigued/old with major hydraulic leaks. plus the tires were only 30%. asking price $40,000. It did have a 6TS cat 475 hp 3406 and no paper work. Second truck--1990 W900 4MG 3406 425 hp 13 spd, Eaton 402P's 3.90 ratio on 48,000 RTE extended leaf walking beam suspension, 14,600 lb steer axle. Engine had recent work no leaks ran good. Trans and clutch good, Rear suspension needed rebushed, Front springs and hangers need rebushed, need two air cans replace, needed two u-joints, Brakes and seals all good- brakes 75% lining, tires 70%. Box was only 4 years old-very nice-clean hydraulics. Box was built by Truck Weld. Interior all good gauges all worked. Could use a paint job. Asking price $40.000 But here's the kicker it comes with a two axle pup which wasn't in bad shape. The first one nine years newer and pretty used-needed $14,000 thrown at it to make it reliable. The second one needed $6,000 thrown at it to make it reliable and it by far has better specifications than the 1999 ever thought of having plus a pup. He wrote a check.
yeah that is a really easy contrast there. The pup you can just park it does not owe him nothing, unless he has a bigger haul off a hoe.
Fact is most dirt working contractors only need a 2 axle pup, the rest is just show. Also another fact between the two 95% wouldn't know what they are looking at and would buy the 99 because it was newer with 50 more hp.
Dang $40k for those? No wonder so much equipment from here is going south especially with the exchange right now. I would sell mine in a heartbeat if I could get close to $50k.
No one here runs tandem pups anymore, I can't remember last time I even seen one and they are all old I doubt anyone would even make a new one. The tridem is hardly more money and allows so much much capacity, it's all tridems or quad wagons here. But considering the axle weight differences place to place it makes more sense in certain places.
105,500 or nothing here on the Westside for truck & pup combos.
^ what he said. That is why I said a hoe job, because all the loaders now will dump over both ends of a 2 axle box. If you are hauling off a hoe then it is cool. I had that problem years ago working for tri-state. We got shut down while the county chip sealed the road to the farm I was mining, and when we fired back up it took a while to get the 8 axle truck combos back. I was trying to corner load these old GMC general 5 axles with an '88B spade bucket. Not a good show.
The thing that gets me about the way they spec some of these trucks, it's like they don't have a clue. When you see a light spec tandem dump on 24.5 rubber, and not air ride with a tall narrow box, it's not pulling a pup, a lot of guys will be loading with skidsteers, mini hoes, etc. My brothers is that and it's a frigging nightmare loading with small equipment, even with my 210 on level ground you can't see into the box great from the back, it's around 12" higher then most other trucks with air ride dumped. A end dump or heavy spec I get it moreso because it's generally bigger equipment loading.
yup my old Ford might be a piece O crap, but the little 8 yard box and short boards lets me load and dip out of it with a 35. It is tough to find a tandem like that.
That is why I said dirt work contractors, I didn't say anything about Asphalt and road building. Plus most rural county/roads bridges can't handle the weight on bridge law , but they do it anyway. State needs more county weigh cops.
The worst abusers are those super single trailers all that beating down a single track. in the summer they move the asphalt all over.
Thanks everyone for talking some sense into me. A truck spec’d out like the Ford in running condition is probably a 40-50k truck, I had grand delusions of buying that thing, throwing a few thousand $ and some elbow grease at it and beating the system. I should know better, you get what you pay for and there’s no free lunch. As far as the Western Star, I’m still unsure. A test drive determined it had good power and shifted smooth, but the dump setup scared me. Think grain bed built by a farmer. The current owner assured me he hauled gravel with it all last summer. The pump struggled to lift the empty box, but it also had a decent leak at a fitting and was low on fluid. He wants 10k. I should just bite the bullet and buy a ready to run unit that’s spec’d how I want it. I’m almost completely out of debt, I owe on my excavators, and I’m hoping to have them paid off by this fall. The thought of another 40-50k in debt is hard to swallow when I’m so close. May just have to keep paying for trucking till I can get a little more cash squirreled away. Thanks again for the help from everyone. I appreciate everyone’s guidance. Great site and glad to be a member
You don't make money being cheap. Cheap bids Cheap employees Cheap iron All cost you more before, during & after.
I think you can find a decent runner for much less than 50K, but you just about have to stop looking for it. Then it will fall into your lap word of mouth.
Any older truck whether it's a dump or over the road has to have good bones. So much equipment in todays business is about looks. No one across the freeway is looking or could really give damn about how shinny and flashy a truck is. So many rigs in todays world have terrible specifications because the buyer lets the salesman tell him what he needs plus the buyer doesn't know his *** from a tea kettle what good specifications are or he just repeats what someone told him without any research. I have spent 11 years telling the owner that a fleet has to be as simple and standardized as possible. A fleet tractor only needs one color, big power, nice interior, one stack, machine finished wheels, no extra garbage. Simple as possible to maintain with heavy rated components. Paying cheap wage and trying to entice drivers with flash don't cut it. Good drivers want a pay check it's hard to cash chrome at the bank. Truck can be plain on the outside spend a little extra on the inside and put a power plant in it that will roll and pay a good wage the driver will stay around.
Truck shop is correct on this, fleet trucks definitely need to be standardized and you need to have big power because today's drivers are impatient as hell.
It's not just impatient drivers-it's the E Log. Appointed load and unload times. Detention charged on late dock time. Minuets didn't matter much years back-they do now. Average mile per hour has to be 60 mph on a straight 500 miles at a 65 mph speed limit. The truck can't be spending a bunch of time climbing grades. The lowest average is 57 mph to cover any ground. I realize dumps don't fall into this category but spending some wise time getting specifications right is the difference in return on investment.
As far as the 0P goes, he just needs good bones. He's got a solo dump truck need. Those don't need to have a bunch of power they just need to be solid. If he finds one that had good running gear but crappy tires, he would be in good shape. Fixing the rubber is easy. Rusty tin is easy. A cracked Hood isn't bad. Things like that messed up frame are not.. Here's to hoping he can find some Middle ground between $5,000 junk and $50,000? Edit: oh yeah, twin stacks on a straight 6. LOL, I have enough work keeping the one exhaust together thank you.
This was for sale about five months ago for 35,000-in real good shape. It even looks like what dump truck should look like.
Dang that's a nice looking truck.
Amen brother, make it reliable and make it pull, we'll run all day, happy.
As a small excavation contractor dump trucks are a luxury that return slow on investment dont get me wrong I wish I had one all the time but in the grand scheme of things i dont need a full time dump and for what they charge per hour I dont see an advantage to own one cause trucks are terrible for cost of operating so is the headache of dump trucks worth trading dollars for cause at 40 grand to buy it will take some real time to get your investment and there are better things to spend money on that return much faster and cost much less to operate
so true, that usually seems to be how it works yea definitely a hard call to make. It’s early in the season and I think I’ve already spent 10k on trucking this year. On pace to double that by around July. Add the convenience of not having to work around the truck drivers schedule and owning one starts to make sense on paper. I’ll only be running locally and for myself, no plans to hire out right now(no time) so I think I could get buy with a cheaper truck.
Well you have to figure you gonna spend $10000 per month on a driver between wages and taxes and insurance, 4k on fuel and then the truck itself and insurance plus all the maintenance. If you have access to contract trucks I would just hire them.
That would be planning on putting it to work 100%. My truck just sits here costing insurance and the basic annual inspection and services. I drive it probably 10% of a work year at most. That might sound in excessive cost to benefit ratio, until you realize that I'm dipping out of the back of the truck for that 10%. Nobody's going to come on the job site and let me do that, and furthermore the truck is sitting there when I'm not driving and I'm still using it when it's full of bedding and I'm dipping out of it. For our purposes it's well worth it because I save on not only the trucking cost of getting bedding delivered but way more importantly it's my hours on the ground. When the guy before me had bedding delivered he then beat the tracks off the mini, going back and forth to this pile that somewhere outside the building footprint to get bedding. That was a lot of tracking at high dollars per hour plus the wear and tear on the mini and downtime from thrown tracks, minimal repairs etc. Same thing goes for the 120 it's tracks were toast from this pattern of use. Sometimes they would rent a skid steer to bring the gravel in. That made more sense but most often they would just Hard Way Jones it. My dump box is all dimpled and beat on, and it has been for 20 years now. I figure it owes me nothing as they've owned the truck for 24 years. It's simplifies my mobilization too. With the mini I can show up with a 95% load of bedding and go right to work. With the big excavator I deliver the day before, and come back with the truck of bedding. I know mine is a special case. It also sure helps that about 90% of the work I drive right by the pit .
The key to that scenario is its paid for and has been for a long time it has nothing to earn if you go into dept on a slow returning investment and pay interest on it its costing more than the headache it solves but you can figure it on paper anyway you want
Yeah it's courses for horses. I still think I can make the truck pencil out for our specific use buying a more current truck, but that would defeat the whole purpose of having the iron that doesn't owe the company anything. My goal is to retire with all this old iron fixed up and functional for the next guy. I better get off the net and start welding hard plate on the 2 ft bucket
I sure don't use my dump a lot, it got about 1200 miles on it last year, but it's still a lot cheaper then hiring trucks and someone to move my hoe, and more useful then a tractor and lowboy. At $700-800 a move, it doesn't take long to pay for a truck in a year. The jobs I really like are bring the hoe in the morning, and leave with it at end of the day, truck is only used to pull trailer but if you were paying someone to move it would eat into profit a lot. It seems like a waste sometimes when it's parked for weeks at a time, but it's paid for and insurance and registration is not even $150/month. Will never bother hiring it out, but been considering trying to find a good driver to drive it when i'm doing digs but can't say I care if it sits. Tandems are worth $85/hr a good driver will cost $25/hr, fuel right now easily $30/hr, $30/hr left isn't making a whole lot. Other thing is, with prices right now the truck is only going up in value so no depreciation to factor in. Just looked at ritchie's sale and trailer is worth way more then I paid 4 years ago too.
Insurance on this is only $44.32 a year but I can only drive it a 1000 miles a year and the plate is permanent license collector plate, no tabs. I added the 57 for you Hallback.
TS, Buddy you got style.....
This right here is the crap on the market, aluminum frame, tired and obsolete detroit, 13 spd with a 4 spd auxiliary {***}. It's a 10,000 dollar pile of trouble at best. Asking 25.000 https://spokane.craigslist.org/hvo/d/north-lakewood-1974-kenworth-w900-dump/7318048698.html
And this one or the same saying it has a fresh in-frame-if the in-frame work is anything like the brake work this dump crapper aught to be a dilly. https://spokane.craigslist.org/hvo/d/north-lakewood-1975-kenworth-w900-dump/7318053319.html
People are nuts right now
Same here. We have one tandem dump truck a 90's model L9000 with L10 and an auto trans built like a tank, woefully underpowered on the highway but one heck of an onsite truck. It paid for itself on the first job. Now for any trucking not on site I'll hire it out every time because it's just cheaper for our operation. If we need 1 tri-axle or 10 we can get them and at the end of the day we sign on the line, get a pink slip and send them on their way. If one blows a tire we're just out a truck in the rotation for that day. It's just so much simpler and easier for what we do. Same goes for a lowboy. We might spend $15K-20K a year on moves which doesn't touch the O&O costs of a lowboy and yours truly is the only Class A CDL driver so it free's my time up as well. A lot of business owners do not value their time appropriately. My time is valuable and is worth more looking at potential jobs or jumping on a piece of equipment to help a crew out than moving a dozer across town. Just my $.02. From time to time GC's will be surprised that we don't own a couple of trucks which I point out that the 2 largest excavating contractors in the area don't own trucks either. They have a tandem or 2 in their fleet of 300+ pieces of iron but they hire the same dump truck companies we do. I think I'm on to something.
If I could get log trucks I'd never own one. I have a lowboy because weekend & night moves are often & I hate to wait.
I need to elaborate on my lowboy comment. Our jobs last at a minimum a week or two and the majority of the time several months so that does make the decision easier on my end.
It's so weird how things vary so much in different places. But at those prices obviously trucking is very cheap. I could spend $20k a year on moving and that wouldn't even get me 30 moves of my 210, doesn't take too many times and the dump truck and trailer pays for itself for the year, I especially like the short jobs move in and out same day, few guys who don't move their equipment themselves can't even think of competing. Pretty much every single large excavation company owns a decent to massive fleet of tandem dump trucks and multiple lowboys to move their equipment. The lowboys I get owning, trucking adds up fast. But spending nearly 200k on a dump truck that you could hire for $85/hr doesn't make sense to me, have a few for convenience, but a fleet of 20-30 that many companies here have I don't get it.
It's all about what headache you want my lowboys are busy pretty much every day but we do more jobs under 3 days than over and with about 40 percent being 1 day jobs I would die without them and I cover a lot of work for a good amount of money cause we are able to put a truck under a machine in a few hours I cant justify dump trucks as a fleet maybe if your a mass ex that needs 20 to 30 trucks every day it pencils out but if I could get lowboys as cheap and easy as dump trucks it would be cheaper to hire it out
Tri-axles here are $90 an hour with 4 hour minimum but even at that it's cheaper to hire out. We have 5 large towing companies in the area that all have Landolls and lowboys that make moving iron inexpensive compared to the O&O cost of a lowboy for what we do. Our typical job is 60-90 days with an occasional 2-3 week job thrown in the mix. Just don't make enough moves a year to justify the expense of a lowboy.
I have 19 pieces of gear that is d8 sized or larger. It is $15k every time we move a tower side and 8-9k for the shovel side. 6 moves per year per side gets expensive real quick.
Back when I worked construction, as the head mechanic/fleet manager/lowboy driver, there were times I would move the same machine three times in one day, and reverse the circle the next day. Some summers I spent 10-12 hours a day moving iron, then got to wrench on it "in my spare time". And they wondered why I would drag in late most of the time. Machine utilization. As the company grew they hired a full time lowboy driver, then added a solo dump, a couple end spills and a belly dump. Actual dump trucks and pups were always hired, there were literally hundreds available usually.
For most, owning a lowboy is a necessary evil then add permits.
When I was with this company in '05, I moved the 120 6 times in one 5 day week but that was the exception. Now I could do without the 20 ton trailer, truly. it i about to cost a set of brakes and tires. I doubt the owner would agree with me though, since we would still have the dump truck part of the equation.
It's $60 a year for the overwidth, $15 a year for tri-axle on county roads not enough to where it makes any difference here.
Yeah that's canada.
1200 a year for 11 foot and 90thousand pounds
That sucks, they get us here on weight by registration, but city plates avoid that and only $100/year, if I needed other plates it's like $1800/year.
1300 a year on tags at 80 thousand for a 25 year old truck insurance is about 7000 a year for a truck that runs about 25000 miles on average
Uh-huh, cheap ain't it.
I f*&$*@g hate trucks! Ok, I love trucks just hate the seatcover that holds the wheel!
Hallback trucks are relatively simple and simple to maintain-just open the hood every morning and dump a sack full of money under there and shut the hood. As far as drivers in todays world/work force-- --bedwetters.
I had a driver quit this morning because he failed to check the dispatch list & see what job he was going to & he went to the one he was at last week (finished on friday). Wednesday mind you, before he went on vacation & never contacted anyone on his return. I will not cater to culls!!
How many tattoo's did he have and how many teeth, divide one into the other and you will have his IQ. I know that sounds bad but I put up with that crap every day 7 days a week. When I see the owner headed across the lot with his fishing pole and a 8 piece chicken box for bait headed towards the outhouse {driver pool} he plans on landing a big one. I don't repair things that actually wore out anymore-no I spend most of my time repairing stuff that's torn off the equipment or broken inside the cab.
Shut the door on your refrigerator what happens to the light ? Shut the door on the truck what happens to the ......... ?