I've been reading some threads on newer machines that are basically ran by computers and it includes just about all functions including the bucket tilt on loaders. A wire breaks or a connection gets corroded and you can't roll the bucket. A lot of new machines also have joystick controls. Great until they quit working. Is all this new technology worth it and does it give more production or would you rather have simpler machines a few years older? I know GPS is a game changer but on something like a wheel loader does having the hydraulics controlled by electronics really increase production that much? I know hydrostatic drive is way faster on track loaders but you still drive into the pile and roll the bucket back the same. Why complicate what already works good? I don't think you'll see many new machines today still working on farms and private lands 30 or 40 years in the future like you see with machines made even going back to the 60's.
i agree that machines are becoming to complex but electric over hydraulic controls do add user customization that is not possible with pilot systems and if a pilot hose blows you're still not rolling the bucket back.
It will be like the Chevelle, Camaro’s and Mustangs. Back in our day, there were scores of cars you wanted to fix up and just cruise in. Now, with what they are making, there isn’t a car or truck made in the last 30 years, that most people would look at twice. I will admit, running the older machines requires more muscle and thought. The new machines do run sweet, just too much reliability on electronics and such. Sooner or later they will be more adept. Then you have loaders with 8k hours that look like new. The old ways of operation are over. Nobody is banging and clanging in a 150k machine. When I had my basement dug, they got into a teeny bit of ledge and it was mostly rotten. They had to wait 4 days for their hammer to show up, I was like just rip it out. Nope, no scratching with the new machine. Every morning, machine would start up 1/2 hour before they showed up, it was remote start and it would warm itself up. Kinda cool though.
I hear a lot of operators complain about drive by wire instead of pilot joysticks. They say you can't feel as much with wire when trying to perform finish work. Customer had an 850 Deere dozer that was eating alternators and at least 2 sets of batteries per year. After the last go around of 2 sets in 1 week and going dead again they called me to come look and see what I could come up with. Everything seemed fine with the batteries and the alternator but after checking schematics and reading through the theory section I noticed they no longer have regulators in the alternators because they are controlled by the ECM. Checked everything i could there and wound up having to install a new ECM because it was not telling the alternator to charge. Something as simple as a blower motor is about 6 times the cost because there is now a circuit board instead of resistor. I attribute it to the fact that engineers have to prove that they are needed and come up with new complicated ways of accomplishing tried and true methods that have been working for decades. How many different types of freaking electrical connectors are needed. What was wrong with weatherpak and deutsch connectors? It is ridiculous to have to keep stock of all this crap now days. Sorry, end rant but I do miss simpler times
I would like to B-slap the idiot engineer that wrote the code for my tracked mulcher that runs on electronically controlled hydraulics. What knowledgable operating engineer would ever speed up the outside track to make a turn? What a great way to lose all fine travel control. I thought about re-writing the code myself but the chances of making a mistake and the time required to re-learn programming make me have to deal with this daily. He should be tarred & feathered for such stupidity. I do NOT own anything off road that requires DEF. These computers are helpful to a point but I really appreciate basic, easy to repair, less conveluted systems. If I can not keep it going myself, I really do not want to own it. Thankfully, there is YouTube to help with my newer vehicles.
I don't think so either. We've gone past, waaaayyy past, the ability for typical person with reasonable intelligence to comprehend today's computer controlled systems without special tools or training. Toss on top that it will be practically impossible to find the electronic parts, sensors, and chips needed to repair today's machines in 25 years or so in the future. These issues almost guarantees machines will be found in the scrapyard more than being repaired and used by folks like me (someone who isn't trying to make money with his tools). Is it this the master grand plan of the OEMs? Or are the OEMs truly trying to squeeze maximum productivity and efficiency out of today's designs? I have no idea...
Change for change sake.
The more complicated the more reliance on dealer oem repairs, it's all thought out on the 40th floor. It's about selling a vast inventory of replacement parts, yes money is made on the initial new sale, big money is oem replacement parts. I'll use Cummins as a example--a complete replacement engine-lets say $55K, if all individual parts and pieces were bought to assemble one the price would be $125K plus. Electrical is no different except it's one piece one area repaired at a time, they know it and they've got you. Are you really gaining by using mass electronics? Some do some don't, when it's broke down waiting for high tech parts-it's easy for the owner to look back at simpler days and think {If I had my old machine I would still be operating-it's all 20/20}.
I don't like fly by wire, but the technology is there to give the control feedback. Jet fighters have been doing it for years. One think I hate about electronic controls is not being able to shake a bucket to clean it out. My Mauldin grader has no feel to it. If I am loading sticky material on one of the older machines, I can shake the material out. The newer one, just slowly moves up and down. Our new 966 Cat as an auto dig feature. I guess with electronic controls, you are keeping hot hydraulics out of the cab. Maybe they are paving the way for AI to take over operator jobs? Komatsu had a demo once of a completely operator free jobsite. Controlled by drones and GPS. Probably cut down on the complaining a lot
I might be an outlier here but i much rather work on an electric over hydraulic system on an excavator especially if its a power complaint, much easier to diagnose pumps with electric regulators 90% of the time for me. and can usually make operators happy by adjusting priority's and or sensitivity/gain
Feed back ? That is how the machine is feeling, I've never needed that in the control stick. I once got to pilot a small helicopter, zero feed back, move that stick 1/16 of an inch and wow, crazy touchy, that was like moving it a foot or more. When running new excavators back about maybe 15 years ago, I really wanted that amount of movement to be full throw on the sticks, but not on a dozer. If electrics can be adjusted to do that I would like that. The biggest problem with electric is rodents, hunting for broken wires, hunting for corroded connections etc. Equipment is a harsh environment for electrics. All the components and wiring need to be made super easy to access and not routed in crazy places.
Feed back. When I pull the control, I can feel the spool opening and I can tell exactly when something is going to happen. The F16 was the first fighter that was fly by wire. Pilots complained that there was no feeling in the stick. Feed back was introduced so they could feel the air moving over the flight control surfaces. I move the stick, or toggle the switch on my little grader, nothing. I move it until something starts to happen. Even cable or linkage, as a weight or pressure to it.
First plane with fly-by-wire other than experimental aircraft was the Avro Arrow. Chief test pilot commented it had good feed back to control movements. Pretty much need fly-by-wire in supersonic aircraft. The Arrow was also the first plane to have 4000 PSI hydraulics.
Farming is the same, when I first started out on the family farm manual 10 speed gearboxes, manual hydraulics and a big foot lever to operate the diff lock where what you had, when I finished full time farming some twenty years ago tractors had shuttle gearbox's, electronic controlled hydraulics, diff locks etc, the other day I jumped in a friends new Fendt, I looked round and got out, sod that for a game, there were more screens than I have in my front room. All this tech does make the job a bit easier, but at huge costs, tractors that were £20-30K are now £100-120K and as soon as it chucks up a fault code its useless until a " Tech" can get out to it,
Regarding feedback, do operators prefer feedback in way that the controls transmit a portion of the attachment force back to you so you "feel" how hard the bucket is digging? Or do you mean you want more friction or spring force built into the control system so it requires a bit more deliberate effort to move the control? I was not aware that pilot controlled systems provided feedback so trying to understand more of this.
Was was was. It was never put into production, and would have been obsolete before it began it's intercepter roll. It was ruined by politics as was the rest of the Canadian military. I can't believe the people on social media calling for it's return. It's done and over with. We are committed to the 16 or 17 F35s, they have already invested in infrastructure and training on the F35. Lockheed has promised investments in Canada. Buy the rest of the fighters and be done with it. It would be just like Ottawa to waste a bunch of money buying some Euro fighter, and have to invest in more infrastructure and training for a totally different platform. Moving the controls on some wire controlled machines has no feeling, Even with pilot controls, there is a feeling of things starting to happen. Not a pressure, just a feeling in the control that fluid is starting to move. Wire control feels the same if the machine was turned off. Maybe is a personal preference. Like slowly squeezing the garden hose nozzle
I believe there are two basic reasons why everything is electronically controlled. 1) Cost of manufacture. Electronics are simply cheaper and simpler to manufacture than linkages, pilot systems, ect. 2) The ability to incoporate telematics and other robotic or otherwise non human control. 95% of the stuff machanics hate of a machine or vehicle is driven by one of three factors: 1) Cost of manufacturing; have to keep the shareholders happy. 2) Government regulation; Uncle Sam MUST be happy. 3) Customer or competition demanded performance. Add the three above factors up and you get a machine that is ten feet long, has a cab squezed in between the loader arms, with the operator sitting six inches away from a DPF running at 3000 degrees that is cleaning the exhaust from a 110hp engine that is stuffed into a area of about 4 cubic feet. And a whole bunch of chincy plastic surrounding a screen that controls everything the two joystics don't.
On HD’s when they went to the Throttle by Wire, most people hated them as it was very hard to feather the throttle and the clutch to find the friction zone. Then they went to hydraulic clutches to really screw the pooch. Then you had no adjustment at all. Aftermarket companies are making bank on retrofits. I can’t stand a hydraulic clutch and won’t own a machine with one. TBW is tolerable.
And most of it belongs to standardization. Years ago options were long lists on certain types of vehicles. But options became a thing of the past because for the manufacture it made more sense to automatically incorporate it into every vehicle. A/C no one wants a car without it, not so 35 years ago, same with power windows. By only offering power windows they rid themselves of manufacturing, stocking & having a change up on the assembly line, plus electric windows were a luxury and had a luxury price. So not only do they save tons by only having one model of windows the price stayed the same. My 06 ranger has manual windows-not many vehicles these days built that way.
It isn't Burger King--you don't get it your way.
Those little freight shaker dump trucks we have come standard with the automatic transmission. If you want a stick, it's a longer wait
Percentage of actual automatics and automated manual transmissions coming off the assembly lines is about 85%. Manuals are on the way out. Besides a new CDL is stamped automatic only or both.
Just saying the Arrow had the first fly-by-wire in a non experimental aircraft. Not trying to debate its return. I'm sure there were supersonic planes before the F16 that had fly-by-wire. Human reflexes aren't fast enough at supersonic speeds. A big reason the Arrow was cancelled was because the Americans were embarrassed that Canada had a better plane than anything they even had on the books. Canada looked into this before going ahead with the Arrow. The US convinced the Canadian gov't. that manned aircraft would be become obsolete and Canada should invest in Bomarc missiles... which were a huge flop. They also offered Canada discounted used F101's that were inferior to the Arrow. History has proven that manned aircraft still serve a vitally important role in the defense of nations. The Arrow cancellation was very political but not because it would become obsolete. Even though the Arrow was cancelled it doesn't take away from the fact that it was the most advanced intercepter in the world and the eyes of the aviation world were on Avro Canada. It was 25 years ahead of its time. This is not in dispute. To realize how advanced Avro was you just have to look at the accomplishment of former employee's. 25 engineers went to NASA and were instrumental in putting a man on the moon. Without them it would have taken a lot longer. The head of engineering was a lead consultant on the Concorde. Compare the cockpit of the SR71 to the Arrow. Avro had some preliminary designs for a Mach 3 Arrow. Avro's Orenda engine division were the first to pioneer the use of titanium as the engines were the first in the world designed around titanium. They were the most powerful jet engines in the world and one was sent to the UK. It's believed the engines for the Concorde were based on the design of the Arrows engines. Avro also had the first jet transport in N. America a full 7 years ahead of Boeing and only 2 weeks behind the Dehaviland Comet. It should be noted that the Comet was a flawed design and just lifting off the runway (and coming back down) was considered its first flight. The Jetliner's first flight was an actual flight at altitude. Howard Hughes wanted to build Jetliners under license. Pierre Burton called the scrapping of all the Arrows and tooling the biggest act of official vandalism in Canadian history. 14,000 employee's of Avro laid off and just as many from suppliers for the Arrow. Largest layoff in Canadian history. Some former employee's commited suicide. The decision to cancel wasn't based on cost. Avro offered 100 fully developed aircraft to the RCAF for $12,500,000.00 each which would have been the deal of the century. Since then Canada has spent billions more buying aircraft from the US. Had the political situation been similar to today it's likely the Arrow wouldn't have been cancelled.
Just finished shining up my tin foil hat. Seems obvious there is a grand scheme at work here to put computer software on everything you could or might buy in the world. And with software comes endless subscription fees and updates. Complicated computerized machines make for regular customers.
After going to the doctor, I decided it was best to start exercising again. I pulled out my old bicycle only to find I needed easier gears to get up hills. Bike parts that are 10 years old don't work with new parts. Shifting is electronic shifting now, and you need to remember to plug your bike in at night or you can't shift. Brakes aren't caliper at all, and are now disc, and frames are all carbon fiber. I bought a new bike computer with GPS. I selected a Garmin 540 which is as complicated as setting up your new smart phone. I did not get touch screen which I wish I had. I get heartrate, power, speed, cadence, and radar via bluetooth connections to sensors around the bike. I have a rear flashing light that has radar in it. I could have bought the Garmin one that also has the rear camera in it. As vehicles come up behind me, you can see little dots moving closer to me. The Garmin stuff cost about $600. I like the radar, and getting my vitals, but the Garmin exercising software is beyond me, and what I need. I haven't decided if I'm going to drop $4000-$6500 on a new bike which is only for a "good" bike, not top of the line. Like anything new, some of it is great, and some of it is just annoying. The new car we just bought is the "touring loaded" model. We love the vehicle, but not all the electronics. Especially when I glance over to pick up my Coffee and the screen lights up with the message to "Keep my eyes on the road". Ok, so how do I program the hydraulic flow for the attachments on my......
I didnt know bikes had went down this path. Kids better putum now.
Another thing not mentioned yet is that if parts for these electronics and wiring harnesses aren't available in the future you will have a choice of a newer current machine or a really really old school machine.
Eventually repair/diagnostics will all be done on a pay up front app on your I Phone. All this scanner stuff will end up at Johnny's Junk. Plus your cell will have a lazer cutter/ welder for up to 2" material. Think of Star Trek. * People in 1990 said drive it's self vehicles were light years away while they talked on a brick cell phone.
Went into business had a beeper we decided on a code, 3 was call whenever, 2 was call next chance, 1 was drop everything and find a phone.