I couldn't Resist. I'm on a Little Clearing Job and Broke the Master Link on my Hi-Track D4 the other day. It broke in a good place terrain wise and I caught it while the track was still on the sprocket. If this was going to happen it couldn't be any better. Except it was almost a quarter mile off the road, through cut over timber and full of wet weather springs. And you have to cross a wet weather creek.:Banghead I let this tractor sit since Christmas thinking I would come up with a brilliant idea on getting something back there to fix it. Well, I didn't. So I pulled it out from under the dozer with my Excavator, folded it up and clamped it with my thumb and hauled it up to the gravel road. We fixed it in the road because it was the only place that was dry. Hauled it back to the Dozer and put it on, that was my day in a nutshell. It was about a 3 or 4 hour fix. We took it pretty easy, time wasn't a factor. I didn't take a lot of pics. When we started I didn't think about it till it was over with.
What broke???? Was it the bolts in the masterlink?:usa
Bolts????? masterpin or link?
Yeah bolts !!! You figure it, since your so smart? Happy New Years.:usa
Bolts , meaning the 4 that go through the track plate and into the Aligator links that joins the chain .
Where it Broke It pulled out around the Pin/Bushing. It was a easy fix, just knock one pin out and replace 1/2 of the master link. I wish I had taken more pictures. I just didn't think of it at the time.
We had a deal very simillar to that happen on our D6D. The undercarridge was completely shot though. We replaced it with berco tracks, was that a mistake?
Berco Makes good stuff. They are the only aftermarket undercarriage i will use. I get comparable like to cat in rocky conditions. I actually find their rollers last longer.
Good to hear, we put ours on in 07 and only have about 1300hrs on it.
Berco Undercarriage I don't think so. I always thought a Berco was a good undercarriage. Some equipment leaves the factory with a Berco on it. In another thread one of our members is looking for input on a undercarriage. I put a picture up of a Berco off of a 2005 machine with 2600 hours that was froze up. Turns out we have a Berco Salesman on here. So this thread title was a joke. If you have been running a Berco you need to respond to this thread. There's a few people intrested in them. I'm sure they would appreciate the input from someone running one.:usa
Reason i said bolts was ,that once i had the bolts that hold the pad on to the masterlink where they connect,shear off.Had a heck of a time trying to get the broken bolts out of the masterlink.Tried drilling,broke eayout and drill bits.So! Finally had to torch the two bolt out and cleanup the boltholes(finethread).The track was getting wore ,but still had quite a bit of wear left,so was trying to save the master link.They was salt rails. Had a guy one time that took a link out of the track,cutting the link half into and taking out one link and weld them back togather( first time i had that done).I was broke so new was out at the time.Got another 1500 hours out of them they was shot.Still had enough to tighten,but the rail height was gone. Thanks for sharing the pictures.Gool luck with your muddy job:usa
Just for any readers that don't know what an Alligator , or split link is . It is a 2 part link that has a serrated joining face that is held together by 4 bolts that pass through the track plate and are threaded into the lower link half . It is then an easy matter to undo the 4 bolts (if they have Stockholm Tar added) and break the track .
Stockholm Tar??? Is that the same thing as Never Sieze?
Does the same type job but works better in that sort of use . Will never let the threads rust as it is a tar made from pine trees and keeps the moisture out .
John Deere 650H Berco Tracks I have a Motocross track in Colorado and I have a JD650H. I need a new undercarriage. The JD dealer says I should only put OEM parts back on it. I got 2300 hours out of the orignal tracks. I understand Breco tracks are less expensive but my question is will they last as long? Since heavy equipment is not my business I dont have a good understanding of what is good or not. David
I would go aftermarket, don't seem that it could get much worse than what you got out of factory. what exactly is shot on your machine? i cant imagine 2300hrs needing too much, are you sure its not 12300hrs? Pj
Undercarriage Pics I got a friend that Berco is all he uses. He says put on one, about 4000 hours later go get another one.:drinkup He says you have to keep your tracks adjusted to get the hours out of them though. I think Woodstock put V Track from Nortrax on his 650. 3 year 4600 hour warrantee if I remember right. If you would PM him I'm sure he would help you. You should take some pictures of your undercarriage and put them on here so we can see what's wore out. You might get by with a set of sprockets. Or maybe not. Where did the machine come from? Some parts of the world are different than others. The north eastern part of Florida is pretty bad for an example.
aftermarket Most dealers, can offer you aftermarket under carriage items. They all want to sell theirs, but they can get aftermarket. I had the local Komastu dealer, come pick my tracks up for the Cat 320 and replaced the rails, another time he turned the pins and bushings on another machine. He was the cheapest, for the same items, Cat really loves their parts, but they can offer aftermarket, for most anything
Willis, yeah i know they can all get aftermarket but the point i was making was that there is no reason for Davidco to go back with OEM if they only lasted 2300hrs on another note, I had CaT quote OEM U/C for one of my 963C's the other day and 100% U/C was less than $10k , also had a new head complete with injectors, valves, guides etc. $2450. INSTALLED :dizzy: Maybe the CaT Dealers are getting hungry like the rest of us lol Pj
Maybe David could give us some pictures showing the bushings- track rails, and rollers etc. this does not sound right - but perhaps he has worn threw the bushings and damaged some links as well
warranty Roddyn, The V-Track undercarriage has a 3 year 4000 hrs warranty. It is the same as Cats warranty. John Deere machines come with Duratrax undercarriage on them. Berco makes the Duratrax for John Deere. They are the same undercarriage. My personal opinion is Berco is way overpriced. Ya, it is good but I don't know if it is worth the money. We sell five times as much V-Track than Berco. Thanks, QuickTrax
Hey Guys, Thank you very much for all of the input. I will take pictures tomorrow and post them on here for you too look at. I have owned the machine since it had 1200 hours. It has always been in Colorado. I do work in some sand because thats what the guys like on a motocross track. To give you some history I promote 1 of 12 Pro Motocross nationals around the country and next year I will be hosting the biggest motocross race in the world called the Motocross of Nations. Basically its the Olympics of Motocross. My website is www.mxthundervalley.com Thank you again for all of your help and will get pictures posted tomorrow. David
For being so much help do we all get free tickets?
Hey if any of you guys want to come to either the National or the Motocross of Nations I will work something out thats for sure. David
Dam why does all the good stuff happen in America or Oz:Banghead:Banghead ointhead
Cause we have room for it!
Hey Here are a couple pictures of my undercarriage. I will post 3 more David :Banghead
Here is the rest of the pictures that I took. After taking the pictures I think I understand what it means that the bushings are shot. Let me know what you guys think I should good. I was completely lost until I found this forum. At least you guys are helping me work through this. David
At the very least, you need new sprockets and new track group. Track group is what we call track chain with pads attached. You could get new pins/bushing pressed into your track group, but the grouser bars are so worn on the pads that they're not worth a flip for a dozer, so you might as well just get a new track group. The top roller and idlers kinda look ok. You need to check your bottom rollers. Back each track up on a 6 x 6, this will let the track sag so you can check if any bottom rollers are siezed or bearings failed. Also check how worn the roller are. Excessively worn rollers will prematurely kill a new track group.
I didn't see anyone else suggest this, but.....uuuuh - someone shut the hour meter off on this machine. No way that's an original Deere 2300 hour bottom. Only way is if it worked ALL 2300 hours at the muriatic acid factory - even then, its pushing it.
Special Thats interesting I never really had any reason to question the hours. The John deere mechanic never really said anything. But than he is trying to sell me something. The rest of the machine is in good shape and runs strong. Is there something I would have done to cause excessive wear? The tracks never looked to tight or loose. He is one thing I use the machine alot refacing the jumps on the track which means pushing up and backing back down jump and pushing back up. I have heard that reverse will wear the undercarriage faster. The JD salesmans says that maybe I should upgrade to a 700. I dont know how a 700 would be that much better for what I do then the 650h Thoughts? David
nah you dont need a 700. i would suggest doing like ATCO suggested, put a new track group and sprocket on it and keep rolling, I too think that the pics show the rest of the roller's being o.k. just curious, how much do YOU think it has worn since you have had the mach? i am wondering if someone swapped track/sprocket to another machine and gave you the worn stuff before you bought it. Pj
At Least It's Not a Berco Undercarriage: I think I see a ripper on the back of your machine... so, you should be able to lift the whole thing up, to check your bottom rollers. Bear in mind however, that's not quite as safe as the block method. From the pictures, it sure looks like the right sprocket has significantly more wear then the left... in fact, I'd be surprised if the track isn't starting to "ratchet"... Have you noticed any? The bushings... at least the ones in the pictures, are defiantly done for. No advice here... just observations gleaned from your pictures, which are very good, and sure help... :thumbsup OCR
Davidco, All you need on your chains are new pins and bushings pressed into your links and new grouser pads. You don't need new track groups. This will save you around a thousand dollars. You need to replaced your sprockets. The wear on your idlers and top roller looks good. Push the blade down and tug on the bottom rollers to see if any need to be replaced. Your roller flanges are not hitting the pin bosses on your links so the height is probably o.k. Don't let the John Deere salesman sale you something you don't need. They are notorious for that in my area. Don't forget they work on commision. Thanks, QuickTrax
I bet you would be surprised what it would cost to put new P&B, grind the rails, 280 new nuts 280 new bolts, 74 pads, plus the labor of putting it all together. it would surprise me if you saved 1000 dollars but i have never done it that way so i dont know. Pj
OCR I dont know what ratching means except right now the right side after you go about 15-20 feet will make a clunk sound and it looks like the track gets real loose for a second. That repeats about every 15-20 feet. So what tracks/parts should I buy and can I buy them myself have them shipped to the track and figure out how to get them installed. Thank you David
Powerjoke, Thats my job, I have two track presses and they run all day long. 1000 dollars is probably a good estimate on what he would save by pressing new p&b's into his chains. We usually reuse the bolts and nuts if possible. All he should have to pay for is the p&b install because the pads will be off anyway and to put new pads on shouldn't cost any extra labor.
I really hope that's not the way you typically raise the tracks off the ground to check bottom rollers. That's very dangerous. All it would take is a hose to pop at the moment your hand is in there and it's bye bye hand. Stranger things have happpened. It's far safer to back the tracks up on a block under the sprocket and lock her down. This will give you sufficient track sag to check bottom rollers and minimize the risk to your hand.
I have heard of it done but never had it done, in the KC area there is not anyone i know of that turns pins anymore, HeavyQuip used to do it and they quite. i have a 963C i would like to have turned if i was to find someplace that could do it, what should i pay for them to be turned? and should they automatically charge for nuts and bolts? and should i have my guys take the pads off to save money?(how much) Pj
ATCO, This usually is the way we check bottom rollers. Majority of the time we are in the field looking at machines before they come to the shop. Blocks are not always available. Its not bad until they have full rockguards on the bottom. We sometimes hit them with a hammer to see which ones are loose. I paid the price when I went to tug on one on a D61PX and it was Red hot. I had roller flange burns on my four fingers for about a week. When machines get to our shop we remove the tracks and block them up first thing then evaluate the machine.
I have never seen track pads ground off that short and still have such square shoulders on the outside edges.
Powerjoke, The last time I gave a p&b turn or install price on here I had someone question me pretty hard but here we go. In the Houston area, the going labor for a smaller machine is around 900 to 960 for a p&b turn or install and this includes running a vacuum on the p&b. This doesn't include any parts that need to be replaced. We don't typically replace the hardware unless we are putting new chains onto a machine or selling track groups. This price is you bringing the tracks to us w/ the pads on. I do know that the going rate around the country is higher than this. I believe it is around 1200 but don't hold me to that. The reason it is lower in the Houston area is because we have multiple track shops here.
A timely sprocket change would have saved you some money on this deal I think. Your new sprockets will have flat spots between the teeth. When these flat spots are gone you need new sprockets. Running them over is what got your pins and bushings. No biggie, most of what I learned cost me some money to. When I asked you to put the pics up I about half expected you to need sprockets and toe your pads. If you got a welder you could still toe your pads and save a little money MAYBE. Some say it's a waste of time and some people swear by it. It really just depends on your labor cost. Here's some pics of a 450H that had sprockets and the pads toed at 3000 hours. BTW these pics were taken on the same job as the Trackhoe carrying out the broken track for my wide track D4H.
At Least It's Not a Berco Undercarriage: "Ratchet", means your sprocket is turning, but not driving your track... kinda sounds like a ratchet wrench, only much louder... you'd probably know, if it was happening. That's called... "jumping a tooth, or, sometimes, jumping a cog". The pitch to sprocket contact is so "out of whack", that the bushings start to "ride" up on the sprocket, and eventually "jump" one sprocket tooth... When the track rides up on the teeth, it tightens the recoil spring, and when it jumps a tooth, the track loosens up for a second, while the spring retracts... that's what causes the bang. Think of it as putting a new motorcycle chain on an old sprocket, or vice versa. Did I get that some what right... track guys??? OCR...
this question is going to make me sound stupid and dumb but here goes is that the right pitch track for them sprockets ???? or is it the wear in them that make it look so far out of wack
Its the wear making it look bad. Those must be some of the worst conditions to run a tracked machine in. Wet sandy material like that in the pictures will act like a grinding compound on the working parts. I was surprised to see the rail height still up like it is, which makes me think the rollers are probably good as well. I would buy a new track group and sprockets then run it till it looks that way again, if thos were the conditions I was in. Another note is to not run it quite so long next time, because when the track starts jumping over the teeth, it puts a lot of stress on the final drive gears, shortening the life of them.
The wear on those tracks are in line what I have been seeing for five years on Deere dozers. Usually they don't make 1,500 hours before they need a turn and in this area it doesn't pay to turn them. You don't save any money directly in a turn and you loose the down time getting it done. Getting 2,400 hours is exceptional life. I haven't looked at any Deere dozers in a long time that had anything but Berco tracks on them. I have heard and tend to believe until I see otherwise that Berco makes the tracks for Deere. I agree with JDOFMEMI completely that wet sandy conditions puts exactly that type of wear on the bushings. I would also say that there is no way I'm ever going to stick any body parts under a dozer just being held up the the blade or ripper. If you are just checking for broken rollers we call them shakers and you will see evidence on them on the sides of the track chain. To find them all you have to do is reach under the rock guard and see if they move. If the bearings are broken there is no weight on them at all. They are never stuck with debris because they flop around so bad nothing will stay on them. Do what everyone I know does, replace the sprockets and chains and go back to work.
Thanks John. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one partial to having two working hands on the end of ones arms.
Me too. I might stick a bar under it, but I am partial to having all of my appendages in working order.
Got my hand caught between two pads when climbing down off the 15C last spring when I had the tracks spilt. Instead of just hopping off I climbed down and just as i set my tools down on the track the loose end moved over the front ideal and my hand slipped and ended up between the two pads. Even trying to be careful thing can happen VERY quickly. I had a shop foreman in North Carolina, when building stock cars that had a phrase bout thinking bout putting your hands in someplace. Trbo
We got that same sayin down here in Arkansas
why did you remove it, all you had to do, was, ran a chain across the two links, and keep running it, but i guess is hard to fix it on that type of terrain.
QuickTrax do you know Tommy?
Yes, I know him. I guess we are talking about the same Tommy.
The Tommy that does the Under carriage appraisals.I'm Billy J.Used to drive the haul truck and lots more for Johnson Const.in Cleveland TX.
Ya, I mentioned you to Tommy and he knew exactly who you were. Small world.
Hey QuickTrax they are not used to the way we do things in Texas.I think Tommy carries a Tugger in his truck.I've seen the way you do this.You don't put your hand between the roller and rail.Watched a Major Cat Dealer do it the same way.
He should I used to aggravate the hell out of him.Tommy is a good man.In fact I would recommend your company to anybody.I talked to Tommy on Monday.
wow
guys need your advice.. What is the best china/korea brand undercarriage for Komatsu & Kobelco excavators? thanks..
Aren't most Chinese makes unofficially branded JUNQUE? I haven't seen much praise for Berco tracks - One guy on the Red Power forum (IH) was having trouble with Berco Track links breaking at the pins and was having trouble getting the dealer to do anything about it.