Ran out of fuel. Bled the system 100 times or 15. Used ether several times. Burnt up starter. Had injectors tested & replaced two. I'm an idiot! Finally replaced fuel filters & it started. Lots of blow by. Running on 3 cylinders. Number one seems to be the one not firing. It's one of the older injectors. Big holes in old muffler. Seems like fuel is building up and then firing and flames can be seen in the muffler. Sounds like shotgun going off over and over. Let it run pretty fast for a long time and kept bleeding injectors. Smoke everywhere. Fun thing is that it ran out of fuel coming out of a half-dry pond. It has no brakes so it nestled itself near the bottom. We're having rain quite often. It's in red clay at about 20% grade, sideways. Can't pull its self out of the hole. Did I tell you that I'm an idiot? Give me your best shots. I deserve them. I don't know what elso to do except have that injector checked again. Don't have a compression gage. Where's the cheapest place to get a rebuild kit. Is it a bear to put in liners, pistons, rings & bearings at 20% grade in the red clay mud? Above saga has taken three weeks between rain and life. Thank you for your thoughts, prayers, and hopefully helpful advice. Packratc in Tennessee.
packratc - you are in a spot of bother aren't you......pictures will not do here - we want video for this one :tong Is there a neighbour or a hire company that can give you a tow so you can get to work in a more civilized environment? I'm sure whatever it will cost will be worth it. Sounds to me you have a compression problem - either valves or head gasket - only a wild guess. A compression test would cetainly be in order.
Thanks, alrman, for the reply. Will have to study up on how to do a compression test. Used to have an old compression gage with a rubber push-in-type adapter that I used for a old flathead 1000 years ago. How high does the guage have to read to test this diesel? What I'm worried about is whether I've holes a piston or have broken rings from the ether.Thanks, packratc
They are supposed to be around 400psi while cranking - a rubber tipped 'push in' style tester will not do the job. Best & safest to bolt one in! Maybe the shop that tested your injectors can help?
Thanks again for the reply. Makes sense. What does a bolt on compression guage bolt to? I'll for one on line or to rent. The injector place is 50 miles away in Nashville. Packratc
You would remove the injector and fit a compression tester adapter in the injector hole packratc. Did this machine miss on #1 cyl before running out of fuel or after?
I knew a guy had injector rebuilt and they set them to high and the tractor did some of these things.
Thanks for the replies. It was running fine until the fuel ran to the back of the tank and it died. If I had had sense enough to change the fliters right then and filled it up with fuel it probably would have cranked right up. That is if the rust and mud hadn't already gotten to the injectors or whatever. The injector that is missing is not a new one but it is one they checked and it popped and sprayed correctly. I'm wondering if I could have broken a valve spring by using ether and it firing at the wrong time. Right now my plan is to start it tomorrow or Monday and see if it does the same. Maybe take the valve cover off and see if all looks normal. (Probably can't tell a thing.) Then take the two old injectors out and have them retested, and while they're out try to do a compression check. My worst fears are that I've washed down the cylinders with ether, broken rings, and need jugs and pistons.Thanks,packratc
Packratc, When it rains it pours!! Sorry I couldn't help but say it. Harbor Freight has a diesel engine compression testing kit for $24.99 plus shipping. Maybe Willie or alrman can take a look at it and see if it will work for your application. Here is a link to it. http://www.harborfreight.com/12-piece-diesel-engine-compression-tester-93644.html Like they said , you have to do a compression test first. Then post your findings back in this thread. I have to say you are not an idiot. No need for you to beat yourself up about what happened. Your situation can happen to anyone. None of us on the forum will be taking any, what you call shots at you about your problems. We are all here to help one another
Thanks, Tinkerer. If the Harbor Freight tool gets good comments, I'll own it. Harbor Freight is only 5 miles from the injector shop. Hope the injectors come out the second time easier than they did the first. A couple of them were bears. Made it all the more fun in the mud. It's really funny that this ol' hoe broke down in the mud hole. I bought the hoe to do several things, but mostly to help me make this mud hole into a pond. I had already spent over 5K with backhoes, dump trucks and dozers on this wanna-be pond. That's over several years. All's I want is to raise $30.00 worth of old muddy catfish. Thanks again, Packratc
Not a bad idea to pull the tappet cover. May have spat a push rod. Re: the compression testing kit that tinkerer linked - the dearer $160 kit looks like it has the right adaptor. You could try thabull's broom handle trick ........ I can't believe I just said that........ I really am a professional ....... honest. edit - could buy the cheaper test kit & an adaptor from snap on - http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item...&group_ID=1430&store=snapon-store&dir=catalog OR - You could make an adaptor from your old injector??? Are you any good at brazing?
If it started this all at once, I agree with alrman I would pull the valve cover and check the pushrods and rockers. Dave
All the above is good advice, would probably does these checks myself, but it seems running out of fuel was where it went downhill. It's not wise to run a machine out of fuel primarily because pretty much any diesel tank will have junk, water/dregs, in the bottom of the tank. When tank has plenty of fuel this junk pretty much stays at bottom of tank. Occasionally a bit of it will suck up the pick up tube and get trapped in filters. When fuel in tank is depleted, it will suck up a heavy dose of this junk, maybe enough water and debris to slip through the filter before engine dies. At this point the injection pump and injectors are fouled up. You replace your injectors, but is there a possibility the water and dregs have fouled up the delivery valve for #1 injector? Just a thought.
Thank you, thank you, for all the replies and thinking aloud. Afraid I'm not familiar with the broom stick test. Also don't know where the delivery valve for #1 injector is. I'm afraid it's in the pump. Clarify if you will. I can braze well enough. However the old injectors went to the shop as trade-ins on the rebuilt ones. Don't have one to braze an adapter to. Are you saying that the cheap diesel compression test kit from Harbor freight won't do the job? Thanks, Packratc
I'm just considering all possibilities pacratc. Delivery valve is part of injection pump. Haven't really seen it before, but I'm just wondering if running out of fuel fouled up the delivery valve in the injection pump for #1 injector.
Definitely pull the valve cover and check there. Also, did you crack the line for #1 and make sure you are getting plenty of fuel there? If you can swap the injector in question with another that is known to work and see if the problem goes to the other cylinder thats a quick way on some of the older units. A compression test would help in the troubleshooting for sure. If you had alot of trash in the bottom of your tank it can also affect the lift pump, but since you have proper function on the other cylinders that should not be the case. It will surprise you what contaminants can do to an injection system. Doing an overhaul in a pond is not ideal, but I and I am sure alot of the other field techs on here have done things in less than ideal conditions before and I am sure we will again, LOL.
I guess I could swap the two injectors and see if the miss stayed with #1 cylinder. If it goes to cylinder #2, then it's the injector. I'll take off the valve cover first and watch it run through the oil and smoke. I'd still like to do a compression check. Thanks again, Willie59. Packratc
Swap injectors? Now that's a quick/easy plan packratc. But keep in mind, still doesn't confirm problem lies in injection pump. Tricky problem you have there. :yup
I have seen either do some bad stuff. I could not figure out why my 3056 would not fire when it had fuel at the injector. The operartor had bent all of the push rods and broke the crank!!!. Pull the valve cover and check them. You should still be fine on the engine if it did not back fire when cranking. Pull it out of the fishing hole first though. Swapping the injectors is a great idea too. Let us know how it comes out.
Packratc; I found this bar to be pretty handy on injectors. Don't get force them too hard or you will bend the injector. It is commonly called a ladies foot bar. They can be purchased about anyplace that sells tools ($3.00 at Harbor Freight ).
Went to the mud pit and got the poor thing to run. Belching white smoke & missing. Took off the valve cover. Kinda suspect one pushrod being slightly bent just by looking. A few of the rocker arms were so loose I could stick a large screwdriver on top of the valve. Didn't have feeler guage so I just snugged them up a little but left them loose. As the hoe was sitting at such a terrible angle I got it to pull itself down in the pond. I was trying to get it to the upper end which is a rock I can stand on. No luck! When the mud on the tire was scrapped of by the fender and pushed against my shin, I left it. As I had the air cleaner off I noticed that there was an intermittent blow back through the intake. Isn't this signs of a burnt intake valve? I don't know nuttin' about no diesel! While it was running and the valve cover off, I lossened the first two cylinders injector lines. Like I was bleeding it. Plenty of fuel but not effect when either one was loosened. Looked to me like it was running on the back two which have the new injectors. If the weather is good tomorrow, I'll get a couple of pallets to set in the mud and set the valves. I'll have to read the manual which is on CD. Seems to me I could get each valve to the top of the cylinder and set them. Any further suggestions and/or comments are hereby solicited as you all have been a great help so far. Thanks, Muddy Packratc in Tennessee.
Pictures, Muddy Packratc !!!!!!!! We need pictures!
It's beginning to sound like you have a bad head gasket.
I hear you Tinkerer! Wife will have to teach me how when she gets home from work tomorrow. I can tie my own shoes and I have stayed at a Holiday Inn, but that's about it in this world. I've also thought of the head gasket. Have to get a way to accomplish a compression check. Thanks for the replies. Packratc
OK Now, Who's hiding the instructions on how to post pictures? Please direct me there before she loses interest in helping with the task. I'm trying to learn something here. Thanks,Packratc
Packratc, Check out this thread: HTH, Dave
On steep bank of the pond...
Back to the bottom...
Half the pond on the hoe...
$500 Secret Weapon...
Secret weapon tied to cedar tree...
On top and running on two...
He didn't read the instructions. I helped him with the task! Mrs. Packratc
The first pic doesn't look like much. If you look above the muffler on the second picture you can see the tracks that I was in for the first picture. After mucking around for a while on two cylinders there was no way it was going to pull its self out. I have this $500 '67 Dodge winch truck, also with no brakes, that we deployed to the attack. Tied it to a cedar tree and about 60 feet of chain linked the two. We had first tried without the tree and the two ton truck tried to stand up. It still tried to stand up but when it recognised the chain to the tree, it settled in and idled the hoe on out. Couldn't get pics of that as i was on the hoe and Chico was in the winch truck. There's a rusted hole about face high in the side of the muffler. As you can tell by the smoke, old hoe ain't running too well. I'll swap an injector or two tomorrow and see if I can borrow a compression guage. (No I don't live in the trailer. I got for moving it and it's dry storage.) Comments and questions are welcome. Thanks, Packratc
Put #1 (old injector) in #3 hole. Put injector #3 (new injector) in #1 hole. Numer 3 & 4 still firing. Number 1 & 2 not firing. Looks like either head gasket between #'s 1 & 2, or one has a burnt intake valve. Will probably take all pushrods out and insure their straightness before I do anything else. Found a farmer friend that has the expensive compression guage kit that Harbor Freight sells. It has mostly automobile and some tractor adaptors. Has nothing close to the pencil injector of the Case 188 Cu In. I still want to do the compression check before I pull the head. Any more suggestions? Thanks, Packratc
packratc, you are one entertaining dude!!!
Pactratc, Here's an idea for you, since you have already pulled the injectors this will be easy. If you have a portable air tank, pull the number one injector then turn the engine to where number one is at top dead center, both rockers with some slack. Both number one valves should be closed. Take an air hose and seal in the injector hole the best way you can, a rubber nozzle would work the best for this, but a wet tightly wrapped rag would work if held in there and apply air pressure. Some will leak past the rings to the crankcase with its age if the valves are sealed, but if you have a leaking valves it will blow out the intake or exhaust. If you have the number two injector out and the air comes out there, well you know the issue. I had a blown head gasket on my 580B, same engine. It would blow the radiator half empty when cold, are you having bubbles in the radiator?? Just some ideas.... HTH, Dave
+1
Good suggestion! I looked for bubbles in the radiator yesterday while it was running. Saw none but was wondering if the thermostat had to be open for bubbles to show up in the radiator. Don't think so but was/am having a hard time wrapping my mind around the route that the compression would take to get to the radiator. If I have the rocker arms off to check the pushrods for straightness it would be a good time to put the air to the cylinders. Since the world's roughest backhoe in captivity hobbled its way to the shop, I'll use the air compressor for the air source instead of the portable air tank. On the topic of the Harbor Freight Diesel Compression kit, my friends seems to be different than the one shown on line (Harbor Freight Item # 46800). The new kit looks to me to have the pencil injector type adaptor. I do love to buy tools. I'm sure there'smmore fun to com in the future. These things love to eat dead presidents and I'm sure it's still hungry. Thanks, packratc
Drove to this side of Nasville today and picked up the $160. Diesel Compression Test Kit. As it was sealed and I wasn't sure that the adapter for the 188 case was included, I told asked the clerk if I could return it, unused, if it did not have the right fitting. He asssured me that I could as long as i had the receipt. If you look at the set on line it's pretty obvious which one is the pencil injector adapter. The manual verified that indeed it is the right one so I guess I'll keep the kit. Tomorrow, weather permitting, compression check time. Drum Roll, Please......Packratc
When you're doing compression test, if you have manual engine shut down, have it in engine stop position. If key switch shuts engine off, disconnect wire from fuel solenoid. This will prevent injection pump from squirting fuel all over the engine while you're cranking during compression test.
Thank you Willie59 of neighboring Knoxville. That's some handy advise that will prevent an obvious mess. I would've done it for sure. Packratc
You're welcome bro.
Please be careful if you do a leakdown test or put air pressure to any of the cylinders. If the piston in the cylinder you are working on isn't on TDC...the air pressure will cause the engine (and anything attached to it) to rotate.
Thanks for both safety tips, always a help. BUT, no one warned dummy me that if you loosen an injector while testing the other, that loose injector becomes a bullet. That baby landed about 15 feet away.Fortunatly we were both out of said projectiles path and it fell harmlessly to earth. No need to alert NASA or call 911, so all is well in Middle Tennessee. This post will be too long, so on to the next.
:shf I have had those moments before... Never with an injector though... Hell, I can't even get mine to budge!! :Banghead My brother had an old 56' Ford F100 with a flathead V8 in high school. It was pretty tired as I remember and I was always working on it (He is four years my younger). We were under the hood one day doing something, I was in front, he on the side over the fender watching, is was running and it spit a spark plug hitting him right in the chest. He only had TShirt on and it made quite the bruise. He was mad at me 'cause I said it should had hit him in the head!! An injector is quite a bit heavier and if the diesel is correct it has a lot more compression, that would definately leave a mark!! Dave
Good news is that compression kit worked great. Bad news is that 275 lbs on #4, 300 lbs on #3, 0 lbs on 2 & 1. As the rocker arms came off, it proved to have two bent pushrods. At least one of these was one that I found that was so far out of adjustment. Struggled with the head intil I took out water pump and took hollow bolt out that is behind the water pump. It goes through the front housing and into the head. (You all know these things and I'm just scratching my head with dirty, greasy fingers.) I'm out side in the gravel so moving the engine lift is fun also. But, it lifts that little head right off there. Cylinder walls are nice and smooth. Ridge ring is mostly carbon, won't hang your finger nail much at all. Piston appearance looks good on all except #2 which match the head in that it's pretty "carboned up". What bothers me most is that there are TWO HEAD GASKETS. Somebody has snuck in there before I got there. Now I have to wonder why the two. Will take head to machine shop in the morning. Hope the block does not need surfacing. Can I, should I, pull the pan and ring the pistons in place. Remember, engine still in the hoe. Gotta' go somewhere, more later and maybe some pics. Advise taken with appreciation. Did I mention that the two head gaskets were blown all to h... between 1 & 2 ? Packratc, greasy in Tennessee!
Liner protrusion packratc, 2 gaskets seems like someones poor idea of trying to fix an ongoing problem there...... Replacing the piston rings on their own is not a great idea on a diesel, even with honing, they will never really do their job as the liners go hard & the rings will never really bed in - if you want to go that way, new sleeves should be fitted. The bent pushrods are a worry, have valves touched the pistons? I hope you noticed that one of the rocker shaft bolts is drilled for oil gallery & where it came from?
Thanks for the reply, Alrman, from down under. Yes I noted the drilled bolt in the middle rocker stand. It was oiling good but it looked like the front was oiling a lot better than the back. A good cleaning will probably cure that. No valve kissing pistons. I wonder if I didn't do in the pushrods with the ether. Should I take a depth mike and check the protrusion of the liners? Is it a big hassle buiding the engine in the hoe? Anyone have a suggestion where I should buy a rebuild kit, or is it a no-no to make such suggestions on the board? I guess I could bring in my secret weapon and lift the loader off of the hoe. Was not planning on doing all that right now, but I guess I can. It's only money and time! Thanks for the interest and the helpful comments. This site is a life saver. Packratc
Packratc, I just went through the same decision... My head gasket was leaking combustion into the cooling system. After it warmed it ran 'OK'... I pulled the head and found my liners were worse than yours evidently based on your prior post. Numbers one and four had rusted at some time due to sitting outside with the exhaust not covered and it has run this way for some time, but all had very little wear. The head had been off before and the head was not even stuck, meaning it never sealed. The oil bolt in mine was in the wrong spot causing the rockers to gall the shafts, a real mess. I won't tell what I did, but I was thinking of an in frame rebuild, then later decided not to due to expenses at the moment. The best place I found the whole kit aftermarket was www.agkits.com at about $540. I bought my gaskets there and was impressed with them. Be aware that there are two different types of the liners for the Case 188D, the early which you should have and the later. The difference is the liner flange diameter, early was 4.445" and the later is 4.537". The head gasket and work I did made a world of difference in mine, it runs so much better! I will know later in the spring if it holds up. BTW, you should have a one piece front cover unless someone has changed it out. How did you get the head off without pulling the front cover?? HTH, Dave
Thanks for the advise, Dave. As mine is believed to be a 1967 Hoe, I probably have the early type. The price you quoted is quite a bit cheaper than the $675 on Ebay. I tried to look up Coleman Equipments but couldn't fiqure out a firm price from their website. I need to take down the moto serial number and maybe pull the pan and make sure the rods are standard size before ordering one. I think you would call my front cover a sinle piece. It's a large hunka cast metal. Looked like there was a small cover you could take off right in front of the injection pump. I've not investigated but I would guess that it's to facilitate timing the injection pump. To get the head off I removed the two manifolds, rocker arms & stands, all head bolts and then the tricky part. I removed the fan, pulley and then the water pump itself. Behind the water pump is a hollow bolt that goes through the cast front housing and then screws into the head. Looks like water comes out of one of the head's water passages and returns to the water pump that way. Maybe someone else can explain it better. Incidently. I'm not so sure I can put the head with front housing gasket (which is directly behind the water pump) back together again as it's a tight fit for the gasket. We'll just have to see. Radiator and lower hose is still in place.Thanks, Packratc
Packratc : In case you missed it, this information is on the webpage that Dave has posted a link to. Case 188 (G188D) 3.1L Diesel L4 Engine Rebuild Kit (Clevite) Engine Kit Technical Information: Early Model - Before Serial No. 2656843 uses a 4.458" Sleeve Flange Diameter (Small Flange) Late Model - After Ser No. 2656844 uses a 4.537" Sleeve Flange Diameter (Large Flange)
To start with packratc, just be sure there is a little protusion of the flange above the block. You are looking for a few thou, which you will feel with your fingernail. Look especially at the area between 1 & 2 where the gasket was blown. An in chassis rebuild is a good way to freshen up an engine. It is a little more physical as you have to lie under & lean over the top. But you don't get to check things like timing gears; micing a camshaft is a challenge; rear engine oil seal is not changed.
packratc, Your hoe doesnt look too bad, I've seen much worse. Thanks for posting the pics, us guys love em.
Packratc ; I did a little head scratching after I made that post. Somebody may correct me - but I think a 580C has a 207D engine in it. The 188s were in the 580B's. Here is a cut and paste from one of the many overhaul kit supplier's website. If you PM or email me the serial number of the tractor I can tell you the year it was made. I have the complete list for all the 580's. Case 207 (G207D) 3.4L Diesel L4 Engine Rebuild Kit (FP Diesel) Engine Kit Technical Information: *Early Engines use a 2 1/4" combustion bowl piston. Later Engines use a 2 1/2" combustion bowl piston. Please Note: The oil pan gasket that comes with this kit is for Standard Clutch Transmissions. If you have a Shuttle Transmission, you may need to purchase a separate oil pan gasket from your local Case dealer. Engine Kit Fits: Case Forklift w/ G207D Engine. Models 584C, 585C, 586C. Case Wheel Tractor w/ 207D G207D Engines. Models 580C, 580D, 580D-CK. Case Crawler Tractor w/ G207D Engine. Models 350, 450. Parts Included in Overhaul Engine Kit: (4) Sleeve Assembly (Sleeve, Piston, Wrist Pin, Piston Rings) (4) Connecting Rod Bearing Pair (1) Main Bearing Set (1) Full Gasket Set with Crank Seals
Tinkerer, good info there, but it would be a 188 as Packratc has a 580 CK (580 C onstruction K ing) - model before the B. edit - You were right the first time!
Alrman; I finally can quit scratching my head about the Packratc's 580. It seems all the tractors in the 580 family were referred to as Construction King's by Case. But when I searched for parts I looked for a 580CK. That is what I saw in Packratc's thread title. There is no such model tractor in the Case parts index. Neither is there one in the serial number list I have. I made my mistake when I shortened 580CK to 580C in my parts search ! Packratc has a 580 / Construction King just like you said. The 580B followed it in the age lineage and then the 580C. Hopefully this will help someone else when they are looking for parts.
Thank you both for your efforts to be correct. Mine is a 580ck. I'll post the serial # tomorrow. Alrman says that I should just have a few thousands of deck height with the sleeves. Mine look to protrude about 1/8th of an inch above the deck, maybe more. That may be my problem, or one of them. Maybe pics & measurements tomorrow. I won't promise cause it's 18 degrees out there right now. Thanks for your help, Packratc
There's no way it can have 1/8" protusion ......... 2 x head gaskets? ......... Now you really have my attention packratc. It's possible the cylinders have moved up by turning the engine over with the head off- if this is the case you will now HAVE TO pull the sleeves as the orings will be shot & guaranteed to leak coolant into sump ...... doh!
Thanks, Alrman! I fianlly got your attention! Your comments and advise have been very exact, thoughtful, & helpful, and they were just passing whims. NOW I've got your attention. I've already decided to get the serial numbers and order a complete rebuild. It's still under 20 degrees out & I don't really relish crawling under it to drain the oil and check a rod bearing. By-the-way, no sign of water in the oil. Thanks, Packratc
Not sure how to edit my posts. Should have been a question mark after "whim" in the previous post. I'm always ashamed of myself when I reread my posts. I really should stick to just the facts and concentrate on spelling and punctuation. I can do those better than I can type. I'm gonna "lern red and spel gud"! Thanks, Packratc
No worries pactratc, we all muck up our posts on occasion, that's why there is an "Edit Post" button at the bottom of each post you make. You have up to 1 hr after you make a post to edit it, after that, it's locked in. But even in that case, if it were something important that you would like edited a mod could do that for you.
Ha - Don't worry packratc - post away. I have been following this entertaining thread for days now. Normally, I wouldn't, but as was said above, your style of writing encourages further reading.
packratc, there is a ridge that holds the 'fire ring' that is above the flange. See the famous Phil pic below: The measurement for flange projection is right at the edge of the flange at the block. Notice the liners are held down with while measured. I just used a large set of washers to clamp mine down as well to check them. This came from Phil's thread of rebuilding a 480D, some good stuff here: Dave
ARE YOU KIDDING ME? I nonchalantly duck under this ugly thing and drain the oil. Oops I do notice a green tinge to it when it first starts. Oil pan over flows making limestone gravel very dark & oily. MMM....perhaps that steering link needs to drop down. Find the pickle fork and a 3lb sledge and knock it out of the way. When I took the plastic tarp off of the engine, the little water pools had made funny shaped ice cubes. I keep tossing those out of the way as I know when I lay on them my body heat will melt them and my coveralls will be wet through and through. It's about 24 degrees but there's rain coming this afternoon and this might be the only day to get the pan down and order the rebuild kit. I gotta' check the rod bearing size to make sure I order right. Retrieve air hose and buttefly impact and start at the front taking out the pan bolts. And then, THERE IT IS! The pan is under the steering stabilier rear mount. Here's where I need you all's advise. Can I just drop down the rear by stabilizing the torque tube and unbolting the rear mount, or do I have to pull the axle foward? Looks to me like the later. This ain't good on gravel! Please advise. Couldn't spot the engine number. Can you hint where I might look? Tractor tag says 580CK, serial # 8320001. Thanks for the help and comments, Packratc
Thanks for the link to Phil's rebuild. I thought when I put the liners back in I'd just clean em up and drop em in there. Can they go too far? Do I need to hold down the liners when I put the new ones in when turning over the engine before putting the head back on? Is there any need to check the depth of the liners now that I've already decided that they're coming out? Sorry if I'm asking too many question. I'm just a poor ol' red neck needn' to play in the dirt. Packratc
Been a long long time since I have even seen a CK, packratc. To be honest I can't give you exact advice re sump removal - any chance of some pics, they may help us to help you. Hopefully someone with a recent experience will chime in..... If something has to be moved, the front is probably the best. Do you have the loader frame up in the air & supported? You may need to do that to get the axle fwd enough. I envy you! Being on gravel, cold & wet - be sure about how you support the rest of the hoe - BE SAFE! The engine number should be on a tag, mid block RHS down low near sump. Did those liners move? They usually need a puller to remove them or a few good hits from below. When all clean they go in by hand & will need clamps just like Phil's pic. (cross that bridge when you get to it)
packratc, I was thinking I could have supported the front, remove the A brace from the back of the axle to get the pan down. I didn't do it, so I am not sure that would work. Mine is a B also, so it may be different there. Like alrman said, block the loader up and out of the way. I made two cylinder stops out of 3" heavy angle iron, cut to the length of the loader rams at full lift put them on top of the gland and under the end bracket. Hold them in place with large hose clamps in the middle of the ram so they don't slip out. It makes working on the engine so much easier. HTH, Dave
Blown headgaskets between 1 & 2.
Showing liner height
Liners again
The right cylinder on the top photo is #2 cylinder as it is the middle cylinder on the third photo. Note the excessive exhaust or carbon build-up. Also note the ice chips on top of the piston. On other topics: Found a post that said that the engine serial number is under the power steering pump on the lower edge of the block; I'll need to study the chassis manual to see what I have to drop to get at the oil pan; I have previously held up the loader arms with angle iron. I'll look around & see if I still have them. Thanks for the help. Still welcoming comments and suggestions. Packratc
The last photo, the left hand cylinder the flange looks low, or is it a illusion? Is the edge of the liner flange below the block? Sure blew that fire ring in the gasket!! Dave
I haven't been deep into one of those engines so I can't offer much. But looking at the top of those liners, there appears to be some rough spots so I think liner replacement would be prudent. Don't forget, when you go to put that thing back together, to clean all the head bolt threads thoroughly and clean the hole threads with a tap, gives much better bolt torque results.
Were you able to clean the liner tops and get a good measurement for liner height? The carbon on the liner edges usually can be knocked off with a die grinder and scotch brite pad. I usually do that prior to making my 4 pt. measurement.
Never ever ever reuse liners . my2 cents
I haven't cleaned anything as I took these pictures with my phone today as I was about to cover it up. Thought I had read that the liner heigth should be .003 or just enough to catch your fingernail on. These sleeves are certainly higher than that. Yep! The gasket wires were pretty much destroyed. There was a piece of one about 3/4 " long on top of one of the pistons. For the sake of discussion, why should I take the time to clean them up and measure the height when I'm going to replace them? If there's a lesson to be learned, I'm in. Let me know. Thanks, Packratc
By the looks of the pics, the sleeves don't look as if they have moved. The coolant in the sump may have come from removing the head. I don't usually measure liner protusion when dismantling, but the fingernail test gives an indication that the block will be OK. You truely wont know how good it is, until it is stripped, cleaned & new liners are inserted. Just thought I should clarify exactly where to look. It is between the outer flange of the liner & the block surface, this is the area where the fire ring of the head gasket seals. It is important that there is not much difference between cylinders as this will affect the gaskets ability to seal. Before cleaning, you will notice the sealing area of the fire rings, on both the liner flanges & cyl head, to be shiny & where there was any leakage (apart from the obvious) it will be dull or black.
Thanks again for all the comments and advise. Have to admit that when the head came off & I saw the obviously blown gaskets between 1 & 2 I didn't spend a whole lot of time lokking at the rest of the block. Everything looked normal and the back two cylinders were running fine. Even thought they had relatively low compression (300 & 275). I attributed that to wear, tear, age, etc. When I get the head back & a report on it's condition (valve seats, stem wear, evenness,etc) I'll know more about what could have caused low compression in those two cylinders. I didn't perform a leakage test as I was already pretty sure I was going to sleeve it. Yucky winter weather in Tennessee. Slowing down this important work. Kiss your partner on Valentines day and maybe he or she will buy you a new set of filters for your hoe. Packratc
Packratc; If you do take the sleeves out, check the top of the cylinder bores in the block real carefully to see if somehow, someone installed some kind of shim in them. There is no way the sleeves should be protruding the 1/8" above the top of the deck like you said it was. Unless, like Alrman said they may have moved up when the crankshaft was rotated. Actually if you can't get them back down with bolts and washers (as shown in Phil's thread). You almost have to pull one out to see what is causing them to be so high.
If you look at the pics he posted, there does not appear to be one shown that is 1/8" above the block. I think he was confusing the upper ridge with the flange. One of the flanges actually looks low, but again it very hard to see in the pics. The only way to know is to check, even if it is with a dial indicator and base, or even a flat rule and feeler gauge at first. When he drops the new ones in, he will know. Just my 2c... Advise you get on the web is sometimes worth every penny you paid for it. Dave
For some strange reason the pictures Packratc has posted were not viewable on my computer until tonight. I could see his posts #69,#70 & #71. But the pictures were not there. Just three big gray areas. Seems real weird. Anyway, disregard what I posted in reply #80. My whole reply was idiotic now that I can see the liners in the photos.
OK guys, Between all of you I'm starting to see the picture. Probably what I was looking at was the "fire ring" someone called it. The actual flange of the liners looks to be OK. BUt I'm just judging from the pictures, just like you all are. Thank you all for pointing it all out to me. This is a learning experiance for me and I might have accidentally learned something. Thanks again, Packratc (Now on to pulling the liners)
Tinkerer, I think the term 'idiotic' is being pretty tough on yourself. Just sayin... After all, we are all trying to help. Dave
sleeve removal
sleeve pull
sleeve pull
sleeve pull
Enjoying this nice weather are ya Packratc?
AHH! willie59, it dont get much better than this. I'm able to work on my hoe between cold, showers, and intermittent sunlight. And then get on the net and show how poorly I'm learning to post pictures. Top pic is supposed to be last and is inverted pic of first sleeve successfully removed. Second pic and 4th pics show sleeve pull in progress. Other pic is obviouysly inverted & I can't fiqure out how to delete it. I had gotten lucky and neighbor/paid helper borrowed a puller from local tractor repair shop. I made screw-on end for the 580ck sleeves. Lots of oil, grease, water, antifreeze, in my face, but they came out. Rods checked standard. Needs rod bearings. Sleeve measured as the larger of the two available for the 188 diesel. Hope to order kit tomorrow. Have pics of puller on the thread I started asking for pictures of pullers. Thanks to you all, Packratc
Looks like progress!! We all like pics, the order is just a minor thing... You'll get that down. How hard were the liners to pull?? You have more rain coming this weekend it looks like. Dave
Thanks for the encouragement, dwloop. The first liner was pretty tough on Chico, the guy pulling on the crescent wrench. I was under watching to see that the puller was not going to hang up on the block. it was definitly a two person job. When it broke loose, that's when the antifreeze joined me on the old piece of roofing tin I was laying on. (I really want you to enjoy the image as it is/was so much fun for me.) Then, as the others came out they seemed get easier. I attributed to the block actually "relaxing" as the pressed in liners may provide a small amount of rigidity. Incidently, the first one to come out, cylinder #2, fought all the way out. That's why the steel bars are on the top of the block. We had to start over again with the puller as we'd run out of thread length. OfF course, we might have started with it threaded through more than needed. Anyway, the other three just pulled loose and got easier as they came. All in all not a bad deal once you got your stuff in order. I'm thinking about starting a thread listing all the tools a hoe owner should own if he/she is going to do their own work. Packratc
OMG! Pushrods (2 needed due to the gentle arc in their shape) are $52 per at the Case Dealer. I got me a flat steel-topped bench and a ball peen, I'm gonna do some reshaping. I'm gonna drill through the push rod about an inch down from the top. Then slide a wire twist from a loaf of bread through that push rod and loop it over the top of the rocker arm. Set that lash a little tight and twist it down. Certainly it can hold on. These things can't turn more than 2200 or 2400 RPM. I'm gonna be a redneck rockstar! Packratc
packratc, if it were me, I would try some of the salvage yards or aftermarket dealers. These diesels have very little valve - piston clearance, and are interference engines. Meaning if the timing gets off or that rod gets out it will kiss the piston. After spending the dime to get and install a new liner kit and the head work, I would not chance ruining that with a couple messed up push rods. Just my 2c.... Dave Edit: Here you go.... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Case-Tractor-Pushrod-G47079-Fits-188-and-207-Engines-/220503088571
I am not a case mechanic.....but.....could it be that someone over decked the top of the block or head creating the need for 2 head gaskets and produced a condition where the sleave is protruding to far above the deck??.......surely there is a reason someone in the past chose to use 2 head gaskets .....might be good to know that reason before finishing the inframe
I wouldn't put at risk all the work and money you've spent on a couple of bread twisties. I purchased a couple of used John Deere push rods from a local bone yard for $10 each a couple of years ago.
Like the Gerald Ford quote. There's one tractor junk yard in the county. I'll see if he has any John Deere pushrods. I'd about bet that one could have pushrods made for less than $50 apiece. Thanks for the advise. Packratc
I don't think I would use Deere push rods (I did because I was working on a Deere) unless for some reason they were exactly like the Case rods you need. I would think any yard that has used equipment parts would have Case parts. There's a large yard near me here in Oregon. I can get you their contact info if you like.
packratc, several guys on ebay have the actual Case CNH rods new for around $12 each.... I listed one above.
Chroniekon, I wasn't going to use JD push rods. Just foolin' with you. I completly understood. It was written in such a way as an unsuspecting reader could read it as saying that a JD push rod would do it. But I have a strange or strained sense of humor. Thanks for your comments and help. I talked to two junk yards today. Both within about 30 miles. One of them, a guy I've done business with before, thinks he has some "in the barn". I've been in his barn before. It's a hoot! I was at that time looking for a starter for a 424 International gas burner. I didn't even have a core. He sent me to a corner of this huge old hay barn and there was a pile of starters that was over 4 ft high & must have been 30 ft across. He said he'd been tossing starters in there for over 20 years. I'd have to look and see what I could find. He has over 200 tractors and varied equipment in his yard. It's Story Tractor. Google it and it will come up near Murfreesboro, TN. Dwloop, thanks for the ebay heads up. That may be the way to ge and cheaper than the bone yard. We'll see. I ordered my rebuild kit today through Agkits. Bet I won't get it Monday. packratc
Hey packratc, you had me goin all right. I bit hook,line, and sinker. It's amazing how many ways something can be interpreted isn't it?. Of course you can't ride me too hard after saying you were going to hold push rods in place with bread twist wires a few posts back!
Yeh! I thought it was pretty obvioius. Everybody knows that bread twists are too short. When I was a kid we used to say that you could fix anything with Elmers GlueAll and milk bottle wire. Packratc
Good news! Just talked to the machine shop that has my head (that would be the one off do the hoe) and it's done. I'll get it later today or tomorrow. I haven't met him but he knew it had a blown gasket. He said it took quite a bit to get the head flat. It looked like to him that the gasket had been blown for quite some time. I hope I can take that as saying that someone blew a head gasket and put two on it to keep from milling the head. Since I've had it it has run solid but I've never used another so I didn't have a feel for how much power it should have. The next thing to do is to slide a feeler under a hunka' steel to see if the top of the block is flat. If it's not I've got another decision to make. My rebuild kit should be here today. I've got some parts to clean up and the crank to polish with emory cloth. Gotta' study up on how to install sleeves. Will I need to end gap the rings? Should I start another thread as it goes back together? Thanks, Packratc
Re: end gap of rings - with new parts its not really neccesary to do all of them, but I would do one to check, in case of any packaging mistakes. Re: new thread - 'War & Peace' is one book isn't it? -
Alrman. I'm afraid that War & Peace is written in 4 volumes and a 2 part epilogue. I think it's the 16th or 17th longest book ever published. In the beginning it's partly in French, but mostly Russian. Although written in the 1860's, it begins narration in 1805. It's difficult for me to imagine a thread that would compare. I'm not really tempted to compete, only because never, not even once, did Mr Tolstoy ever mention a Case 580CK. If he had, I'd feel obligated to take up the challenge to write about the in-frame rebuild of the 188 diesel as installed in the 1967, Case 580CK backhoe. If you will, as you've been sooo-- helpful in my plight with this ole hoe, spend a few moments and look over the 3rd & 4th volumes and see of he did sneak in a refrence to the machine that I'm working on. Get back to me on this and we can discuss the possibility of the rebuild being on this same thread. Of course, I only want to help the future frustrated mechanics that are/will attempt this same repair on similar machines. Thanks again, Packratc
IMHO, I'd keep the info on one thread. It's a start to finish project anyway, and it's easier to find a single thread in the future as opposed to finding two different threads.
Good point, willie59! I guess that lets alrman off the hook on my request to research the mention of the 580ck in volumes 3 & 4 of War & Peace. No matter the length we'll stick to the one thread.Thanks, Packratc
OK! The day has come to start making mistakes again while putting this rag back together. I'm hoping alrman will help me so we can compete with the 4 volume longest post ever. The head took 3 passes to clean up & make flat. He cleaned it, did a valve job, machined it flat, & 8 new valve seals for $133. Thought it was a good deal. Blew the rain water off the tarp & blew water,oil, old bugs, etc., off of the victim. Decided to bring the winch truck around & pickup the loader.Think I cut 2 pieces of 3" angle 32.5" long to hold up the loader. It had been a pain as you all can imagine. Chico, got underneath & started loosing main caps. The looked pretty good. Couldn't get the bearing upper shell to cooperate. Ended up grinding the teeth off of a hacksaw blade and making the ends flat. Tapped on it & it followed the bearing around the crank until he could get ahold of it. BETTER YET! I learned later from & old friend. He cuts the head off of a 20 penny nail and puts it in the crank oil hole. Turns the crank and the nail pushes the bearing out. Puts them back in the same way. Just got to be careful to not leave the nail too long nor turn it the wrong way. He nailed it! I noted the oil hole in the rear main. One could over look it. Looks like bad weather coming in. Next step is to torque the crank and then put in the sleeves. Do folks still put the sleeves in the freezer overnight? Directions with the rebuild kit said nothing about it. They did say to use vegatable oil on the sleeve o-rings. Remember: notches toward the front & numbers toward the cam. Listening for suggestions. Thanks, Packratc
Might be a good idea to check bearing clearance with plastigauge. Use plenty of oil during bearing assy, better still some engine assembly grease - often it is supplied with rebuild kits. You have not yet mentioned the condition of the cyl block - where the orings on the liners seal. Often these get eaten out with rust / electrolosis - these must be in good shape for the orings to do their job....... I'll say it again now - I use "rubber grease" to lube the liner orings during install. ** Fit all the liners without the seals & clamp them down to check protusion.** Re: putting them in the freezer ....... waste of time as you seem to live in one! - No, they don't need any special treatment, if they are tight to go in - the block is not clean enough, with the orings fitted & lubed they should go in by hand, with a slight twist
I haven't built one of those engines alrman, but it sounds much like the old 239 Deere, no need to shrink liners, just make sure the block is clean and lube o-rings with rubber grease, then gently push them in.
the head may have been shaved before so make sure your pushrods dont hit the rocker levers when valves open form adjustment screws backed out too far.If so you can get shims to go under rocker stands .The bolt in the water pump may not line up now ,throw it away. Good Luck
Thanks for all the good advise. Have been reading my work manual which is a CD. Not too handy. When I took said victim apart I noted that the hollow oil bolt to the rockers was in the middle stand. Also thought that only one end of the rockers were getting oil. Read the manual and it says it ought to oil from the rear-most rocker stand. Then found that the rocker shafts are equal length & manual calls for a long & short. Manual shows oil holes in rocker shaft all the way through. Mine are only on one side. Maybe I'm reading crazy but it almost looks like someone replaced some of said parts from a gas burner. Of course I've gotten the rocker arms all mixed up. I've thrown them back together. I'll get it started and observe what's oiling what where. Not too worried about the rockers being switched around. They can't tighten up as they wear. I'll just run the valves every 6 months or a year and let her ride. You all let me know your opinion on all that & I'll think of some more screw-ups. But, it's all in fun! Packratc
Shopguy, You know we left the front housing in place and just loosened up the bolts a little bit. Glued the gasket onto the housing & kinda slid the head from the rear so the gasket would stay in place. I had taken all the studs out to have room for the sleeve puller. Took a little coaxing but finally got the three housing bolts started. Didn't think the hollow water return bolt would go in but it finally did. Had to snug the head down a little bit to get that done. Wouldn't it be interesting if those kept the head from torquing down all the way. How's a guy gonna' know? I got an idea? I'll use two head gaskets. If it ever blowns it'll probably blow between the 1st & 2nd cylinders. OH! This is starting to feel too familiar. Packratc
Yea and lets use wrong rockers and see how good pushrods are.
I plan on backing off the rocker arm adjustments all the way and turning over the engine by hand. Am I correct in assuming that every time a piston comes to the top both valves are entirely closed? The manual says to find top dead center via the flywheel. Where's that marking to be seen? Thanks for your continuing patience and assistance. Packratc
Packratc; Your shop manual should have instructions and a diagram explaining how to set the valves. leave the rocker arm adjustments within at least .040 thouandths or so. Be sure #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke.You will be able to wiggle both rocker arms when it is. If one of them is tight it is likely on the exhaust stroke. I am not familiar with the 188, but the timing marks should be on the crankshaft damper (pulley) with a pointer on the front cover. Just like a car or truck engine. If it is on the flywheel maybe Alrman or Melben can step in with more accurate info.
Leave all injectors out turn engine by hand (same rotation as it runs) until you see intake valve close then stick a stiff wire in injector hole and turn until you feel TDC ,set both valves on that cyl.then go to the next one in firing order there are other ways but this works best for me.Keeping one eye on pushrods on other cyl. making sure they are loose until there turn comes up.
Shopguy, It's funny but I had typed in this very method a little while ago. I had used a welding rod in the injector hole. If I watch what intake opens ofter #1 exhaust has opened & closed, I should be able to tell if I'm on the power stroke or 180 off. It's been a while but it used to work on gas burners. But I guess I need to find the timing hole in the bell housing. I should know all this stuff. Anyway, I typed it in and deleted it as folks best advise is to go by the manual. It probably is but I like to think the whole thing through in my own weird way. I'll get it done, some way, and I'll be cautious not to bend the pushrods. I may very well set them loose to start just to be safe. On the other hand, I need to rotate it by hand with the valves set close to insure that I don't have valve interference with the top of them there pistons. I'm more worried about the sleeves possibly leaking and/or another head gasket blowing. All in good time. It's only money and time. Thanks, Packratc
Make sure you are on compression stroke to set valves even thoe the valves seem to be closed on the other tdc .dont worry about the timing mark unless you have the pump off.I said follow firing order but that dosent matter this way it just saves som turning but after all that is wife's work anyway
On a 4 cyl engine - 99% of them, petrol or diesel, the valve adjustment is the same procedure. To adjust #1 on compession look for #4 to be rocking; adjust #3 with #2 rocking; adjust #4 with #1 rocking; adjust #2 with #3 rocking; No need to check piston height - but do whatever tickles your fancy. :tong There are other methods to adjust - Case service manual tells how.
Packratc, I realize that you've got your hands fulll here.......I have quickly read through these 8 pages (the pictures are great), from what you've found out - do you still think this is a result of when you ran out of fuel and then some excessive either in trying to get it restarted?? Good luck with getting her back together, while all of this is unfortunate - it is alot of good information. Take care.
Ah War Eagle! You ask heap good question about this heap! My best guess & I do mean a guess is this: I started out with a well-worn old hoe who's mechanics have been even worst than me. Looks like to me it had been in to and had a sleeve kit put in it some time ago. At that time they put a carpenter's square across the head and determined the head to be warped. They slapped on two head gaskets and went to work. It went through several owners all of which believed in the magic of either. None of the these ever stored the hoe inside. When I ran out of fuel the junk in the fuel tank emptied into the lower filter & plugged it up. Even though I thought of it, I was not smart enought to stop & replace the filters right then. I was too intent on getting it out of the mud pit that I hope will grow up to be a pond. Had I replaced the filters right then & bled the system, I mighth have been OK and limped along with an underpowered hoe that ran on all four. According to the head machinest, I guess he was the head machinest, he owned the shop, the gasket(s) were/had been blown for some time. (Maybe one was blown and the other was holding on.). I can only tell you what he said. Remember the back two cylinders only showed 300 & 275 lbs of compression. It should have read 400. The crankshaft bearings could have gone on a long time. The rods showed some copper, severall quite a bit, in the upper halves. I think they always will due to the exteme compression, however that may have been caused by excessive ether use by me, but probably by previous owners. Who's to know? This deal may cost me $900 to $1100, without labor, but that's just a guess. If I get away without sleeves leaking & the head to front cover gasket holds, & I bend no more pushrods, I'll be OK with it. (I do think that the valves were way out of adjustment & that I bent the two pushrods with the ether.) You must take all of this as guess work. The hoe was broke, she's getting a fix, and now I'm broke. Such is the way of the world. Packratc
Thanks for the recap....I have to say, you are taking this all in stride; but then again, whenever anyone even thinks about owning or working an "old" piece of equipment such as this (and the one we own, 1973 model Case 580B) you have to be prepared - mentally - for things such as this to happen. One of the bright sides to this is that even if you pay a nice sum for a late model tractor - you can still have these kind of problems, which is not the case here. The best of luck, I'm looking forward to following your progress. Thanks again.
You're very kind with your comments, War Eagle. I could easily say that anyone buying an old hoe should have on hand or be prepared to put forth another two thousand or so within a few months of purchase. I have quite a few junk cars and trucks and my rule there is that every vehicle I buy will need another $500 added to it within a short time. These guesstimates only apply to me, though. If you buy a hoe you know, you know you know where she's been. Buy a stranger and you might buy danger. Packratc
What you see here is obviously bolts & washers holding #'s 2 & 3 liners in place while I turn the crankshaft to put in the other two. What is not so obvious is that this is the first time I've posted a picture w/o my wife standing over me giving instructions. Maybe I can do it again! Packratc
Hot Dang, I did it again! This is looking down hole #2 of they roughest 580CK in captivity. For those who've not been there, top ledge that looks about 1/8th of an inch wide is where your sleeves sit. The hole going down in is the machined surface about 1 1/4 inch deep is where your rubber seals seat to seal the water around the sleeves & away from the oil. Under the crankshaft you can see my work surface. It's what we here call limestone gravel. The large light colored mass at the left is my left forefinger. (A little of myself in each and every photo.) Packratc
Packratc, you never listened to your teacher when you were in school did you ????? All 4 liners needed to be fitted & protusion checked, why can I see 2 liners fitted with pistons ??? rofessor I hope you have omitted to tell us you have indeed done this & not had photo evidence.......
Alrman, you've caught me & I am embarrassed and ready to take my punishment. I took the advise of the machine shop man and slapped it together w/o checking the protrusion. I asked him about it he said the cutting of the head would be fine. I guess we'll find out if I screwed up. The instructions that came with the kit made no mention of it. No, I never listened to teachers in school. It took me 8 years to get a college degree. I will accept your admonishmnets and you'll never see me cry. By-the-by, what's the worse that can happen to my project? (Look at it this way: If my motor fails you can say "I told you so!) Packratc
Don't know that I'll need it but does anyone have experiance with the Harbor Freight radiator/cooling system checking tool? They're about $120 and might not be a bad tool to own. Does anyone know if it incudes an adapter that might fit these old backhoes and such equipment? Appreciate your input? (Haven't got mine back together yet so don't know if I'll need it.) Packratc
Packratc !!! Listen to Alrman. Check the liner protrusion on ALL of those sleeves before putting the head on. It is of utmost importance. One thing to consider is that there is possibility something could have gotten under the top ledge of a sleeve and prevent it from being completely seated in the block. At least lay a straight edge, and I mean a STRAIGHT one, across all the liners after they are in and check that they are all the same height.
OK! OK! I've got to get back in you all's graces. Here's where I is. Been sick for a few days and haven't been out to work. When I left it we'd put the head on and hand tightened only. The rocker arms are not on, no water, no oil. The front gasket and three bolts including the hollow one behind the water pump are back in. The water pump is not in, just the housing. Do you all recommend taking the head back off, removing the studs, fastening down the sleeves with the washers and measuring them all? I have a magnetic base and a plunge micrometer if I can find it. let me know what you think. At this point all's it will cost me is a couple more days work and maybe a head gasket and sleeve sealing rubber gaskets. I may also get some advise from the diesel mechanics that loaned me the sleeve puller and see what their experiances with this have been. OH MAN! That means pulling the oil pan back off and the pump arm and possibly pulling and swapping some sleeves. Also, are you all saying that the minimum I should do is pull the head back off and see put a straight edge across all the sleeve tops and insure that they're all between .003to .005 of each other. Will that do it? Thanks, Packratc
Packratc: Remember or ever hear of Murphy's Law ? Myself I would do whatever it takes to verify that those sleeves are within the tolerances that are specified in the Case repair manual. Even if you have to pull and swap a couple of them (which I doubt). I assume you checked the block deck for flatness before putting the sleeves in. If it isn't then it will show up when you check across the four sleeves with a straight edge.
Pull and swap ??Packratc if you do have a low one just pull the pan and bump the low sleeve up get you some shims (for that sleeve) cut the shim put it under the flange knock her back down tite .Some kits come with the shims.
Tinkerer & shopguy, When I do all this will I have to replace the head gasket that is already on the hoe? It is not torqued, just tightened with a ratchet. Probably not more than 30 ft lbs. has been applied. So, I have to drop the pan & knock one up, so-to-speak, what about the sleeve seals. I know I don't have to knock it up so far as to get them above their sealing area but will they still seal? No, I didn't check the deck eveness. The head man said that he was confident that it would be fine. Packratc
If you do take it off ?? No i would reuse the gasket and dont worry about 2 or 3 thousanths over the limit the gasket will take up that much.I think the 2 blown gaskets was the red flag. maybe they are ok but if you lubed the o rings they will be fine
Well, I took it back off & will include pics later. But a new & immediate issue has come up. I have a neighbor working for me. He's a long time friend & makes his living as a handyman. As I went about other things today I had hime torque the head to 70 & them to 100. Told him to work from the middle of the head out to both ends. I went by him one time & he was fumbling some with his phone. Didn't think much about it. He said he was done in a few minutes. Went back to start on the rocker arms &/or water pump & noticed he hadn't tightened any of four short outer head bolts on the left side. These are the outer bolts on the injector pump side. He picked up the wrench torqued them to 100. Now I'm sitting here wondering I should back off all the head bolts and retorque in the proper sequence. Give me your best advise. I've gott'a do it first thing in the morning or let it go. Thanks for your input, Packratc
You are a very trusting fellow packratc...... I would not worry about it, - but, I would check the final tension of all the nuts & bolts again - starting at the middle - just to be sure...... tip - as you check the tensions, mark each bolt as done with a white marking pen or similar - more professional advice you will probably never use
I agree with alrman, outer bolts torque em down and move on, don't worry about it. Many things about engine assembly require precision, but some only require good enough, funny thing about engines. However, your buddy needs to learn that there are times that one should simply allow the cell phone to vibrate in ones pocket until the battery is dead.
Thanks for getting back to me. I'm pleasantly suprised by your answers. I had visions of loosening them all up this morning and then retorquing. I still use an old bar-type torque wrench that you have to do most of the work with with your arm strength so you can stay close enough to see the scale. It's a pain but at my age I guess I'll hang in there with it. I went to Harbor Freight on Monday to buy their radiator pressure testing kit (I want to insure that the sleeve seals hold pressure), and actually looked at a torque wrench (the "click" kind) but passed it up. After I get this thing to run, I'll warm it up real good and run back through the bolts my self. That's a good practice anyway. Thanks, Packratc
Got it back together. It runs. Am at a loss on how to post photos again. Wife is worn out so I'll let her alone until tomorrow night. Then I'll post photos and things that might help others doing an in-frame on an early case hoe. Thanks, Packratc
I'll post pics later. When I took off the head again I held the sleeves down & checek with staight edge the block deck and the sleeves, placing straight edge on the edge. All checked good with feeler guage. Don't have a correct depth guage micronmeter but I checked as good as I could with magnetic stand & guage. Pics will show it. I was satisfied and put it back together. I had ruined gasket between front housing and head so I made another. Pics will show that I loosened the upper bolts in front housing and tapped a couple of chisels between the housing and the block to "spring" foward the housing and maybe let head slide from rear to front into place and not ruin the new gasket. It worked and it fell into place. Still haven't found the timing mark on the flywheel to set it on top dead center. I put the rocker assembly on (oil bolt rear most), set the adjustment way loose and gradually tightened rocker arm stands checking to see that pushrods stayed in place. As I had put alternator, fan, & waterpump on already it was hard to turn over with screwdriver in the front pulley. Will continue in next post.
Making sure the tight pushrods were still pretty loose I turned it over with starter motor. (This was after I added oil & water.) The starter motor can bend the pushrods as easy as the engine can. Squirted a little oil on top of pistons through the injector holes. As this hoe didn't have a temp. gauge nor an oil pressure guage. I added them at this point. Got cheap SunPro at AutoZone. Put welding rod in #1 injector hole and watched intake open and close. Then watched #3 cylinder do the same thing right after so I know that I wasn't 180 off. Adjusted all the valves as sequenced in manual. Set at .014. Incidently, while I was turning the engine over I turned the fuel cut off on and let it waste a little fuel. Remember I had not touched the injector pump. Put the injectors in and fuel rail the takes excess fuel back to tank. So at this time I had oil in the guage line which was plastic. (I've since replaced it with copper.) Starter motor turned over 4 to 6 seconds and it ran. No miss, no smoke, not ether, no gasoline, nothing but power. Oil pressure hit 70 lbs and temp. started normal rise. Probably didn't add enough water. Took it back to mud hole pond and ran it 30 to 40 minutes at 50% to 70% power. Oil pressure dropped to 45 at idle and temp. got to about 215 for a few minutes. Didn't mean to get it that hot. It cooled right down and left it for the day. This morning the engine oil is still almost too clean to see on dipstick. That means no water in the oil so far. Maybe the sleeve seals will be OK. Started like a small block with injection. Might be a disaster tomorrow but I'm pleased right now. Hope all this typing will help others in the future. Will get pictures in later. You all are the best! Packratc
Well done Tolstoy - I mean packratc ! I bet the grin goes from ear to ear. Are you saying the engine got to that temperature because it didn't have enough coolant in it? 215deg is a little too high - hope you don't have another problem - thermostat; radiator??
Probably didn't have enough coolant in it. I used the old thermostat as I had not had problems before. I had the radiator cleaned at the radiator shop last year. Could almost always come close to touching the radiator and could lay my hand on the valvecover. Raining now but I'll fill it up tomorrow if it clears up. It started this morning with just a touch of the starter. Of course it's about 50 Degrees F here. Sorry for the long posts. Didn't want to leave out any of the gruesome, bloody facts. Yes, there is a slight grin that could probably detected from the moon. 'Course it could go all the hell tomorrow! Thanks for all your help! Packratc
Good job Packratc ! Please give us all the bloody details. And be sure to post some pictures of the roughest hoe in captivity. Especially in the pond. Sounds like everything is working OK. I hate to see your thread coming to an end . This the most interesting thread I have followed yet. You are certainly a very creative writer.
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OK! OK! So I put a bad picture in there twice. So sue me! If you've slogged through my writing maybe you will be able to fiqure out what the pics are of & what order they're supposed to be in. Please note the hoe is running w/o smoke emitting from the straight pipe. Will buy new muffler this week. Helper is on the machine in the alleged pond. Mud is about 15 inches deep. Hoe went through it a 3/4 throttle. Came out of the pond the same way with front wheels 3 ft off the ground. As govenor doesn't work the only sign that it knew it was under a pull is slight, very slight, wisp of smoke as it made the hardest pull. Next is build cylinders, rebuild valve bank, rebuild brakes. I have a ROP to put on it and later fenders too. Please ask questions if I've omitted anything. this thread & all you gearheads made this a lot easier. THANK YOU, Packratc
Awesome work packratc. A little tip when applying silicone sealant, don't apply bead to component from tube, instead, squirt a daub of silicone on tip of index finger, then smear it on component, not too thick though, it only takes a light film. This makes the application of silicone more uniform, coats the entire area with sealant, and gives less ooze on the outside, and more importantly, less (undesirable) ooze on the inside. Do you live on the Cumberland Plataea?
No, I'm not on the plateau. Off of it to the West. Good tip on the use of silicone. Have to take the responsibility there. Said helper did it as I watched. I've noted that anyone who's not paying for materials uses it most generously. Secret little-known use of excessive sealant is that it circulates in little streaming filiments that clings to inner-most cracks and crevices, often times to rubber seals. Thus assisting seals with their function to keep the BS out of the holes it usually creeps into. The other reason I don't use my index finger as I once was in the military service. I was assigned to a top secret unit wherein all members had to have our fingerprints removed with acid before our discharge from the service so any missions that we might or might not have taken part in could not be connected to our covert unit. Had I used my index finger said assistant may well have noticed that I lack fingerprints and that lack may bring about questons that I could not answer without compromising national security. Consequently when helper uses excessive amounts of silicone I keep my mouth shut and hold on to the cap between the right forefinger and right thumb. After his usage I join those pieces together and place well squeezed tube into tool box to dry up and never be able to be used again. But, it doesn't leak into the tool box nor reveal the fact that I lack fingerprints. I may be a lousy mechanic but I can shift the blame to some innocent soul somewhere, some how. That is how I roll! Packratc. ( Of course you know that I use an alias due to national security.)
I said on page 5 that this thread is entertaining. Well, it just keeps getting better and better........
Nice thread, I too am impressed things turned out good, as for the rest of the repairs, make sure to keep posting pictures and we'll keep reading. One of the most entertaining and educational threads I've read so far on HEF, hope nobody minded but I ate popcorn while reading this, it was way better than watching a movie.
You all are too kind. I'm glad it's been fun for you all. I think the whole deal probably came out costing about 1k. I'm not sure.(If there's a need I could break it down.) That's without labor. Randy, you go for it. Popcorn might have been grown in your own state. Help support your local economy. Just a little bit of salt on mine, thank you. Packratc. Must add a footnote here: Did you see on the news about the baby who swallowed something like 31 magnets? Most attractive baby I've ever seen!
Ok, you're pulling my leg, right? After all, would that not be compromising national security if you told me where you lived?
I reside near the thriving metropolis of Lascassas, TN. You can purchase pertrolium products at two different locations. Get your mail at the post office which is a room about 12 ft by 14 ft. or have it delivered. Probably have 6 to 8 churches here. We boast a new pharmacy and soon to get a Dollar Store. One vet who treats small animals. There's been about 6 new residences built on this 3 mile or so long road in the last 30 years. I don't know them all but I'm mad about them building out here. I have to stay here as the name I go by is an addiction. I seem to have to own things that have engines and wheels. They don't have to run, be pretty, or worth anything to anyone else. But, if I want them, I want them. My wife hates all of it. She wishes the rust function could be faster. My home is a disaster of rusted cars, trucks, tractors, lawn mowers, motor homes, & trailers. My friends laugh at me & make fun. I consider myself to be one lucky and sick SOB. Packratc
That is awesome Packratc ! I would be a lucky SOB to have you for neighbor.
you don't have the corner on the market . my wife call's it junk i say it's like money in the bank. it's better then money in the bank cus she can't spend it when it looks like that .tb
Trevor, You've surely married into my wife's family also. Tinkerer, I've misled you. You don't want to be my neighbor. I won't loan my chainsaw, weed eater, & probably not my tractor. Nothing I have is for sale. Last time I sold something I grieved for two years. I told my wife of these conversations. She said to inform you all that she has three things on speed dial on her phone. They are: The insurance man, the undertaker, and the scrap metal dealer. I know what she has planned. At the foot of our driveway I own two cemetaries. I plan to be in the newer one. In a hole dug with the auger on the back of my tractor. My ashes will be in a half gallon Jack Daniel whiskey bottle which is downstairs in the kitchen cabinet. Guests will have to empty it first. My wife will have friends out on the day she plans to drop me in the post hole. At the same time the scrap metal buyer will be hauling loads out of the driveway. She'll at least want my cold gray ashes, sans two gold crowns, to witness the dispersal of my life's collection. After her friends have left she'll go behind one of the out-buildings where there is a couple of old commodes. She will place it over the freshly dug hole in the cemetary as my tombstone. She'll visit with me any time the need arises. In a metal waterproof box, beside the tombstone there will be my collection of hot rod magazines which start in 1956. She'll peruse through them & wonder all the time what I saw in them that made me take so much time in the bathroom. Then she'll use them one last time. My only joy will be knowing that Hot Rod was always printed on slick paper. It's nice, calming, and comforting to know that I have provided for my wife & her future happiness. Packratc
:lmao - I'm sorry I ever helped you - condolences to your wife (until the "Lascassas Tea/Scrap Party" begins) - :lmao
Let me guess...The lid on the metal waterproof box is held on with bread wrapper twist ties!
I think John Prine could write a song about him.
Are you sure you're not married to my mother in law?
I still wanna be your neighbor Packratc! I am thinking Packratc is your real name There is a Mrs. Packratc right ? I really think your true calling in life was to be an author. This thread just keeps getting better and better.
Mrs. Packratc is a farm girl who is bugging me that I have yet to turn her garden. It's just too wet. She keeps chickens and this weekend got 25 new babies that are now about 5 weks old, moved into the big girl's chicken coop. They're isolated of course from the 50 or so others that are layers. Some of them are too old and will soon have to move into the old girl's coop, the freezer. Harvest Day, the waifting aroma of chicken feathers freshly dunked into almost-scalding water on the South lawn. We often send out invitations but are usually disappointed by the turn out. Ugliest backhoe in captivity got about 4 hours of use yesterday at about half to two-thirds speed. Has good power, very little smoke and oil as clean as it can be. Think I have a small oil leak at the valve cover gasket. I used the old one because it was rubber which I prefer over cork when you're going to take them on & off several times to adjust the valves. Ambient temperature here was in the 50's yesterday. Oil pressure never got below 45 lbs and water temperature, with a now full radiator never got above 160. Packratc
Have to report a small screw up & the results. Been working old hoe several hours almost every day. Chico has been the operator and he ran it out of fuel. We were both suprised. It would start with fuel added but wouldn't keep running. Next morning went to town & got two new fuel filters. There was quite a bit of water in it & the lower filter was plugged. It would let fuel through slowly. Engine now has maybe 12 to 15 hours on it. Oil level is still at mark. Temp. runs less than 160 & it starts at 60 lbs of oil pressure. Changed the filters & bled injector #1. It started & ran great without bleeding anything else. I guess that's because it's now a healthy engine. Lesson learned: Always replace fuel filters when you run out of fuel in an old machine. There's bound to be crap in the tank. Will probably start to let fuel out of the sump in the bottom of the tank every other day or so. Maybe that'll take care of the water. It'll now do quite a bit of work for only a 48 HP machine. I owe you all for your help. Thanks, Packratc
Real nice write up. This will hep me immensely with my ol 430 case 188 head gasket change..