I have set out to re-seal my spool valves, re-build the float detent mechanism, and refurbish the pintle arms & torsion bushings. I started out by having a helper thoroughly clean the innards of the machine, with the cab tilted up. When I started to work, I spied a part--a bushing or spacer of some kind--lying on the top of the "case" immediately under the pump, in the area beneath and slightly in front of the right side pintle mechanism. Here is the part, and the area in which it was found.
So the question is. . . what is it, where did it come from? I am not aware of anyone else ever working on this machine. . . and we haven't done anything but replace some hoses. . . and of course, filters and fluids. I must confess. . . I have played a role in mystery parts before. A good friend--I'll call him "Ratchet"--worked at the local Mopar dealership. Mark is top-notch, and always had some major re-build going on. From time to time I would walk through the shop to visit him. If he wasn't looking, I would drop an extra bolt or other part (only one--never more than one!) on his parts tray. If I had been there, he would usually catch it pretty quick. If I hadn't been by there, he would sometimes call me and ask me if I had been by looking for him--that meant he must have actually left something out (or somebody else was messing with him). I don't think this part was planted. It doesn't fit any of the hardware we have disassembled. . . and the paint on the top of the ? case (whatever it is) has a ring in it as though the spacer/bushing has been sitting there for a long time. Is the part familiar to any of you Bobcat experts? Thanks for looking.
It's a spacer for the bottom drive pump support bolt Jim, I've seen this several times. Vibration makes the bottom pump support bolt rattle out, spacer drops. Many times I've simply put spacer back in place and install a new support bolt. Other times I've had to run a tap into threaded hole to repair a few buggered threads, use red locktite on new bolt. The spacer fits in the gap in red circle. The 1/2"-13 bolt goes through hole in bracket (see red arrow), through spacer, then into threaded hole in bottom of drive pump housing. You may have to pry up on drive pump housing to get bolt to start in threads.
It looks like a part of the muffler bearing but it can't be because they are now made of ceramic.
I think willie is correct, but I was going to say the to round ones on my back door latch looks like those.....
Willie59: 1/2" x 13 by what length, I wonder? The bolt ought to be there somewhere. It's too big to get out of the drain holes
Yes, logic would dictate that bolt would still be in there. But in my experience (unlike the spacer), that bolt seems to fall into the abyss.
Maybe like up under the plastic fuel tank, rubbin' a hole. . . .
LoL, I'm sure that bolt will have something to do with at least one of Murphy's laws. I can't recall the length of the bolt, but a quick measure with a ruler of some sort should confirm length, adding maybe 3/4" to 1" to fit in threads in pump housing.
You will be very lucky if the pump mount bolt fell. Those like to break off. I check them on every machine that uses that style and they are often broke. Most of the time I can find the right angle to attack it and drill it out, but I have pull several engine?hydro combo out for the the really tough one. I had one one time that I drill, started exacting, it moved several turns and locked tight. A half day of meesing around before I gave up and pulled then engine combo. When the bolt broke it banged up the threads so bad the rest of it wasn't coming out. I had to spin it out the back side, cutting it down several times to clear. I hate pump mount bolts.
I found the pump bolts loose and laying in the pan of my Gehl skid steer when I dropped the bottom pans to clean it out. At least they were easy to get to.
Great. . . thanks for the "encouraging" words, Bobcatdan. Maybe I'll be the lucky one this week. The machine is at the farm; I'll check the hole later this week. I don't know what grade Bobcat assembled it with, but the replacement part #'s are all Grade 8. Tougher to break, but darn sure tougher to drill and/or cut off, too.
Pump Mount parts breakdown The "mystery part" question has been beneficial in bringing the loose/missing pump mount bolt issue to HEF. Here are the engine mounts/pump mount parts for my 2001 Bobcat 773G series. Exploded Diagram Code: Parts List, page 1 Parts List, page 2 The Mystery Part that prompted this thread (spacer) is #44. Also note the spacers (washers) #13, and the bolt, #43. Bobcat specs out (3) different bolts, each with a different length. I surmise that the different bolt lengths are used for different spacer combinations. The longest bolt reportedly has an unusual "shoulder" area vs. threaded area, stock for this application. With the exception of the 2" length, the bolt lengths are probably not something easily found at a hardware store in Grade 8. Bobcat of Knoxville stocks each of the parts in question. Though this is for a specific ser # run of 773G, the scheme likely applies in general terms to other Bobcat models.
Pump Mount Bolt, continued :update The winner is: Bobcatdan! My boy "Mistake" went by the farm tonight and says, yes, the bolt is broken off approximately 1/8 - 1/4" deep in the hole. :crying I'm not good at much, but I am really good at breaking off drill bits and extractors in broken bolts. Without any help at all, I can do that most every time, the first try. Nothing that a good EDM machine can't fix. Maybe I'll wait until Willie59 is off in Virginia working on one of those Morookas. . . and then drop the machine off at his shop, and tell 'em I need it back "tomorrow morning."
LoL, good luck getting that done. :tong Sorry to hear that bolt is snapped off in the hole Jim, bummer of a spot to work in getting it out.
Looks like some hoses would have to come off to allow access with a drill. . . unless one of you true experts can drill it with a right-angle drill. Studying bolt-extractors; the Alden Drill-Outs look good but the pump-mount bracket is out from the bolt hole, would probably not allow deep enough drilling with the Alden Drill-Out. Any suggestions, Dan or anyone? I'm thinking it is something that probably should be fixed, not ignored. No telling how long it has been like that.
Hah. Thought I was gone, huh Willie? Not a chance! The broken pump mount bolt is out! How long did that take--2 years? I used the Tom Sawyer method. A really nice, smart machinist friend named Eric volunteered some time ago to take a stab at it. . . and he needed the skid-steer to do some mods to his yard and driveway area. I finally got the machine to his house a couple of weeks ago. Eric carefully employed 2 or 3 of the ideas that Willie and others suggested to me, along with my idea of a centering guide, and some other techniques that Eric came up with. Read the next. . .
I will skip the ideas that we discarded, and get right down to the steps that, in combination, worked. First, I ordered some 1/2" hollow "headlamp" bolts from a speciality outfit, OTB Gear http://www.otbgear.com/Hollow-12-Headlight-Mounting-Bolt-P78.aspx The bolt was broken more or less flush with the pump block, so there were no threads to engage. ( You, however, might get lucky.) Eric modified a hollow bolt and double-nutted it to the pump-mount bracket flange, centering it as best possible over the broken bolt and hole. This hollow bolt would serve as a drill guide. With a punch through the drill guide, the bolt was center-punched to help start the drill.
Huh. It isn't a very handy place to drill. Eric smartly stuck a laser pointer pen backwards into the mounted hollow-bolt drill guide, and spotted a point on the inner surface of the "frame", the exoskelton of the Bobcat. Mark that point. Then measure or make some sort of template, using the existing small holes that are nearby. Remove the rear wheel. Transfer that point to the outside of the machine and drill a hole. To make a long drill, take a piece of round rod and machine a pocket in the end. Take a reverse-twist drill bit suitable for drilling in the 1/2 bolt (the same size as the hole in the hollow bolt). You may have to turn a little off the shank end. . . and fit it to the pocket machined in the rod. Braze. Presto! You now have a long reverse-twist bit suitable for drilling the bolt. Insert bit from the outside of the machine, through the hole you made in the frame, and through the hollow-bolt drill guide. Drill slowly, stopping frequently to blow out the hole. Drill all of the way through the broken bolt.
Access to the hole in the bracket is partly blocked by the hydraulic hose. I might have removed the alternator and hose, and blocked the hose with JIC plugs and caps as taught by Wise Willie. Eric didn't do that; he instead fought with the hose and somehow held it down or up out of the way. He used a bolt-extractor (as in Easy-Out). The bolt wouldn't budge. At that point, I would usually "horse it" until the Easy-Out broke. Eric is smarter. He first started the engine, ran it to full operating temp, and applied pressure to the wrench on the Easy-Out. No movement. The OEM bolt reportedly had red thread-locker on it, supposedly "non-serviceable". Leery of direct flame, Eric used a heat-gun on the iron--for quite some time--until Voila!, the wrench on the extractor began to turn. Success!
Now, Willie, a couple of questions for you. You remember that I found the spacer just laying there, but. . . there is no telling if there was another spacer or washer added to that one, in between the bracket and the pump block. The question is, should be use the one spacer, and pull the mount bracket up tight, should we make up spacers that mostly fill the gap first, or should be maybe add a washer-spacer to fill maybe half the gap and pull it up tight from there? Of course, we would select the optimum length bolt to engage as much of the threaded hole as possible without binding or bottoming. Another Willie question: I don't want the bolt to work its way out, but if we use red threadlocker and the bolt breaks again, we are back to the same problem of trying to retrieve the broken segment. I am inclined to skip the threadlocker and tack-weld the edge of the bolt head in a very small spot. That will keep the bolt from backing out, and if the bolt breaks, the tack could be ground off, the head would fall off, and the bolt could be more easily retrieved. This would also prevent the broken head-end of the bolt from finding its way under the plastic fuel tank, where it could rub a hole. Whaddaya think, Ol' Morooka Man?
Feh, you guys call yourselves experienced mechanics? It's simple, you just make sure nobody's watching, tie the pump in place with a ratchet strap, throw the spacer as far away as you can, preferably in some weeds or bushes, then quickly lower the cab and walk away. I know this must be the correct procedure because I have found several different make and model machines where this repair seems to have been performed, as the ratchet straps are all faded and oil soaked.
Nice crafty work Dr Jim. :drinkup And I don't see a problem with securing the bolt head instead of using thread locker on the threads. Of course, there's always plan B mentioned by the real Morooka Man above.
the correct bolt comes with thread locker already applied.... :drinkup
That's just great, crewchief888. (and where is "NWI"? Northwest India? ) Make it impossible to remove the bolt when it breaks the next time. The Bobcat dealer wanted to "pull the motor" to get the broken bolt out. Waiting a year or more for the Tom Sawyer method was better for me. This bolt breaking seems to be a common problem. Do they break because they loosen first, just break, or. . . both? Y'all didn't yet answer my remaining question: Should we make up a spacer thickness that fills all or most of the passive gap between the mount bracket and the pump, use the one spacer that we know fell out, or what? Being fundamentally ignorant, I have no idea what determines the alignment of the pump mounting. When I get the spacer thing and bolt torqued up, I'm gonna start working on my face. Maybe start a thread?
Bobcat should be able to look up the proper spacers by the serial number, but yes, you want to fill that gap between the bracket and the pump housing. And I'm not sure exactly what breaks that bolt, some do, some don't, go figure, my best guess is not torqued to proper spec in the first place. As for crewchief, I can assure you he's not from North West India, he's a genuine Bobcat technician, and a really handy fellow to have here at HEF, his contribution of helping folks with Bobcat machines here is much appreciated. :drinkup
Yes, Willie, I can tell the man is alright. I have heered of Knoxberg where you lounge about. I can git there by follerin' the Dixie Highway. I was honest to gosh wondering where NWI really is, not being mean. I might want to visit someday. . . I've been known to show up and buy HEF members a really fancy lunch--I once paid as much as $ 6.00. Ever had that happen, Willie? :beerchug I tried to look it up. http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/NWI NWI could be Northwest Indiana; Norwich, England; Netherlands West Indies; Nowhere Interesting; National Women's Institute: or most anything. Bobcat shows 3 or 4 different combinations of spacers and washers and different bolt lengths. I think the exploded diagram is wrong, as it shows the spacers between the head of the bolt and the outer side of the bracket, not between the bracket and the pump housing. My machinist friend can make a spacer to fill the gap, and we can gauge the hole depth. The hole in the pump housing is blind, not through, on my pump. If the factory used a bolt a fraction too long for the make-up, that might explain the bolt breakage. Working in hay today. . . need to figure out why the JD 5425 farm tractor loses its prime when it sits for a few weeks. The primer pump is on one side of the tractor, and the bleed on the injector pump is on the other side. That's a real hassle--darn near impossible to do efficiently by yourself. Fuel line check valve or something silly in the Stanadyne primer assembly is causing it. Point me to a good thread or two for that, or I will start one. Thanks to you all for sharing with me, for encouraging me to be smarter than that bolt.
National Women's Institute could be a wonderful place to live; or, next door to hell.
Mitch, you have a funny (albeit twisted) sense of humor. :falldownlaugh
Thanks (I think)
Here's a silly suggestion if at all in doubt about the bolt length..... use a stud and a nylock nut. Gently bottom the stud so you're sure of full thread engagement and I would use thread lock on it. For whatever my opinion is worth, lol.
Good idea, lantraxo, one that I need to remember for other applications. Though I like Nylock nuts for some things, I find that they are weak compared to Grade 8 nuts. I also loathe the idea of threadlocker on the bolt threads. Breakage of these pump-mount bolts seems to be common, and I want to be able to retrieve the broken end if it breaks again. I am inclined to put anti-seize on the bolt threads, and then tack-weld the head of the bolt to the washer, and the washer to the bracket after torqueing it. That will make it 100% "locked tight" but still retrievable by simply grinding the tack weld. Unless, of course, one of you talks me out of that. By day I work with Titanium dental implants, essentially threaded inserts with various attachment components (see Zimmerdental.com). For kicks, try removing a 1.25 mm Ti screw (broken off) through a tiny access hole drilled through a maxillary molar crown. Great fun, but doable. Fortunately, the system I use is not plaqued with screw breakage like other products in the implant industry. Thanks for the suggestion, 'traxo.
Personally I would avoid welding the actual bolt, welding a flat or square bar in place tight against one flat I would go for, but to each their own of course. As far as locknuts, I use either Grade 8 nylocks or Grade C locknuts, these are the all metal ones that are crimped for an interference fit, they're not really designed for reuse. Let us know how it works out for you. Btw, I could use some dental implants myself, I suppose a DIY kit is out of the question? :tong
Part of the reason I wanted to tack the bolt head itself is to keep it from falling under the fuel tank, finding its brother, and together rubbing a hole in the plastic fuel tank. Just seems like the tiniest of tacks--head to washer and then washer to bracket--would keep the bolt from turning out. Welding a bar tight against the head seems like it would take more welding. . . and thus make it harder to get back apart. But while we are discussing this, I just realized a significant drawback to my idea: If the head is tacked to the bracket and the bolt somehow breaks anyway, you won't be able to tell that the bolt is broken. It will look good, but might not be providing any support. I'll consider your suggestions re: welding a bar or retainer tab. I don't have much experience with that, but have one or two creative fabrication experts who do have. Can you post a photo of an examples of what you suggest? I guess I could drill the corner between two flats on the bolt head. . . and safety wire it, like on a race bike.
How about a flange head bolt and a bolt on retainer plate, if you have the room? Pictures not to scale, lol.
X2 on the safety wire solution. Doesn't require any additional fabrication and it will allow you to use anti-seize in the initial assembly. BTW does the bolt break because it loosens and then gets beat up or is it undersized for the application? Just curious. SimS
...."from time to time I would wak tthrough the shop t
"....from time to time I would walk through the shop to Visit him. If he wasn't looking I would....." Dr. Jim you Green eyed double headed Gemini looking miscreant Monster! That was so wrong after reading I began to weep. Hope you found what you were searching for. I'll Remember you in my prayers. Sincerely, fixou P.s. tell your wife and my kids I said hello
fixou812, I figured out that you're quoting a post by Dr Jim in post #2, and the quote cuts the original text short as indicated by the (...) periods, meaning, some of the context of the post isn't obvious. Forgive me for being dense, but I'm trying to figure out your post and quoting Dr Jim (without actually using quotes). I'm thinking there has to be some form of humor there, at least I hope, but for the life of me I just don't get it. Could you enlighten a knuckle dragger like me as to what the inside joke is? After all, your reply dose get a little personal. :beatsme
Dear Dr Jim, I'm sorry for teasing you seems I was flashing back to someone messing with my bolts Lol. Oh and Willie I must refrain from posting with a hangover!
Your are right, fixou812. The extra-bolt gag was indeed bad. But. . . I probably learned it from the guy I did it too. Lol.
OK, Willie59. It is about time for you to weigh in on this one. I'm pretty much set on using anti-seize on the bolt, not red threadlocker. If it breaks again, I want to get it out. Tack-welding the head (or flange or washer, etc.) would keep the bolt tight, but would camouflage any new breakage of the bolt. Safety wire would retain the broken head but would not necessarily keep the bolt fully tight. Lantraxco's bolt retainer idea is a good one--would not hide new breakage but would let the head fall free. . . to go under the fuel tank and rub a hole. lol. I suppose we could combine the retainer idea with a non-flanged bolt, and safety-wire it loosely to "catch" it when it falls. I'm stumped. I'm making this too complicated, but I do want anti-seize. And why do the bolts break? Torqued too tight at time of assembly? Too long a bolt in the blind hole + too much torque? I have 0% confidence that the replacement bolt won't break, too.
DrJim, Why would the retainer allow the head of a flanged bolt to fall free? Should hold the head in place and if you put a washer under the retainer that's thicker than the flange the head should stay there but rattle around so you can tell when it's broke? Not defending it because it's my idea, just trying to grasp your thought process Hell, go back to the stud idea, use a way long stud with a flange nut, retainer, and the attach a safety chain to the outer end of the stud, and a sensor wire so if it breaks and loses ground it will set off an alarm, shut down the engine and give the operator a shock through the controls..... umm, okay may be a bit over the top.
Don't get sidetracked trying to follow my thought process, 'traxco. I've already admitted to being daft! There ain't nobody around here with much sense, 'cept maybe for ol' Willie59. ( Around here, there are signs everywhere pointing out "Slow children" playing. Must be a lot of us.) Of course I get it--you didn't think I was that daft, did you? You mean a thicker washer under the retainer--a slightly thicker washer under the retainer, around the bolt that holds the retainer in place. Yep, I can see that--the bolt head would indeed wriggle if broken. I was just pretending to be slow. So again I ask,. . . just where does one acquire these retainers? Am I going to have to Tom Sawyer my machinist friend again? I do actually like your idea the best. Even if it is your idea, Mr. "Slightly scruffy and generally grumpy." But hey, the anti-seize was my idea. Give me some credit for that one. For a bolt that is gonna break, red threadlocker is wrong. Looks like I need to get busy and fix it, and then post a picture ( spelt "pichur" here) to prove that I dun dunnit. If your shop was somewhere close, I would have fun with you. Like maybe drop an extra bolt on your pump or engine cart. Most sincerely, I thank you, Dr. Don. - Dr. Jim
LMAO! If you saw my shop it would scare the bejeezus out of you... we could lose small children in there if they weren't so noisy! Besides I was trained at my father's knee that good mechanics always have some parts or bolts or nuts left over after the job, that's how we get our christmas scrap bonus! :notworthy
Surely you are not talking about the same "Slow children"? They play in your shop? You have lots of them there, too? It is a darn shame that most of us can't actually get together in person. Some of y'all are a real hoot. Crazy as my coon dogs.