Hello guys, my name is Josh. I am in the Navy and opened an electrical business in South Carolina. I've also always done a ton of side jobs like re-building anything I can possibly find on craigslist and turn a profit. This weekend I rented a mini-excavator and cleared a little bit of land for a customer, it was a lot of fun. I've ran a lot of equipment before but this really sparked my interest in doing this more for some side money. I found a bobcat 863 high-flow skid steer on craigslist for $4000 tonight. Has about 4000 hours on a leutz diesel. He said he things an 83 HP but I've read most are 73? Has a new bucket and tires. Only problem is he said that it has been overflowing with diesel. Runs and usable, but he thinks an injector or two is going out. I'm a pretty decent mechanic, work on all my own stuff, welding, whatever it is, but I know nothing about these machines. Quick thought, machine burns fuel, no smoking, not burning oil, says "overloading with fuel." Any quick thoughts? Also, is this a pretty decent deal? Can I add attachments onto this machine? I'm not sure what the high-flow means? Thanks a lot guys. normally I know a little bit about stuff when I walk into these forums, but this time I'm a complete newby to owning equipment. Any help would be appreciated. If it is injectors, what kinda cost am I looking at for all 4? I'll do the work myself. Thanks a lot guys.
Welcome to HEF j.cowling. :drinkup But hold the freaking bus for a moment. An 863 Hi Flow with 4000 hrs for $4000 bucks? Either the machine has serious issues or the fellow doesn't know equipment, or maybe he just wants to give it away. Of course an F series (rectangular headlights) would be close to that price range, still cheap if in good condition, but a G series (triangle headlights) at that price, it would have to be ragged out. It would be hard for any of us to address the engine issue without more info, it's just to vague at this point. As far as purchase, it's worth the bill if it passes a thorough inspection.
Case in point, here's a $9,500 Canadian Dollar 863F with 3500 hours, and probably not Hi Flow. > http://www.marketbook.ca/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=9694691&LP=MAT Give the machine a thorough inspection. If it checks out good, it's worth that price.
He said it started acting funny with the fuel problem and then he parked it. Owns a scrap metal yard in Lexington. I'm sure it's been used a bit but for that price I figured I could get it running good and use it if these things have a decent life expectancy, if not….sell it for a good profit. I'm picking it up tomorrow. I'll look into more and hopefully we can figure out the fuel problem.
That's an 863 F series, can't confirm if it's a hi flow machine by the pics. And I doubt that machine has seen a long service life in a scrap yard, every machine I've seen from a scrap yard is beat to hell. If the machine checks out good, the price is really good.
It says c-series on the back of it?
got it home. Serial number on rear left boom is 514412616. Tractor takes a little longer to crank it until it starts. Once running it smokes pretty bad. Smoke smells like fuel. It is not wet. The exhaust has a lot of black soot in it, dry though. I've been told look at the injectors. Never worked on this engine, but looks like fuel pumps off the bottom, run up to 4 injectors at top. Also another line runs up by the injectors from there…what's it for? Alternator is newer, but the output wire is disconnected not sure why. Can you think of a reason? I'm gonna re-connect it after talking to the guy if he had no reason…forgot to put it back on maybe. Also the fuse block at bottom right has the wrong size fuses and misaligned fuses. Other than that, looks good, runs strong. What do you guys think? $4000 worth it? Can you help me find a free downloadable service manual with parts list? I'm hoping to just get the injector tips, those things are expensive. Any help you have on this machine would be great. Thanks again.
One of these things is not like the other. The 2nd injector in is soot and not burning like the other ones. Please tell me the good news that the injector is bad, not that the cylinder isn't firing based on no compression?
Is there anything I can do to get a couple responses? Maybe I posted this wrong?
Just be patient. Soon you will be overwhelmed with support and advice. Most members aren't available right away that can answer your questions. Some like myself, and yourself soon, will be hooked on reading through all the posts and without realizing it learning.
I'm on Eastern Time and I'm just now sitting down, been working on my daughters car that her hubby messed up and I HATE WORKING ON FREAKING CARS! I'd just as soon pour diesel fuel on them and set 'em on fire. Yep, that's a C series, I can see enough of the rear door now. That's an oil cooled Deutz engine, pretty soon you need to replace those oil coolant hoses, they looking pretty rough. The injector with the black soot on it looks like it wasn't making a good seal at the copper fire ring at the base, allowing compression and combustion to pass by the fire ring seal. Have an injector shop test your injectors, it doesn't cost much to do so and tells a lot about the condition of the injectors. As for the injection pumps, I haven't fooled with them for a long time, can't recall the tricks involved in removing them, crewchief888 would know more about that. You need to check the oil in the chain case. There should be a pipe thread plug at the front of the machine. Remove the plug and check the condition of the oil and if it's at the proper level (the plug port)
Thanks so much. I'm having the injectors checked tomorrow. The fire rings look cheap and easy. Is this machine running a good but still? Also, what all drives this thing? The basic rundown. Engine has a huge belt, drives? What is the chain for? The oil hoses you're talking about are for the hydraulics? Thanks again
No, that engine is cooled by the motor oil in the engine, not water based liquid coolant. The motor oil is pumped to a heat exchanger (radiator) to cool the oil, then it returns to the engine sump. The two hoses that carry the oil to/from the rad (see red arrows) are looking pretty rough, you should replace them when you get a chance.
The drive belt turns the two hydrostat drive pumps and the charge pump. The chains in the chain case is what connects each wheel axle to the left and right drive motors.
Awesome thanks. That makes sense. I thought just the outer sheath was coming off but the integrity was still in tact on those. I'll add those to the list. First have to get the smoking to quit and get it to be easier to control. Pulling it off my trailer today was rough. Sticks don't operate equally and left one doesn't return to neutral.
I'm learning more and more. Man I'd hate to have to change those pumps or motors.
Is the charge pump for the hydraulics?
Common Bobcat problems. Drive centering plate adjustment and possibly a loose pintle arm on a pump control shaft. An 863 C series likely has the aluminum pintle arms (post #7) > HeavyEquipmentForums
Charge pump sends oil to the loader control valve to operate loader functions and auxilliary hydraulics. Oil leaves the loader control valve and goes to the hydrostat drive pumps to charge the pumps with oil. Once drive pumps are charged with oil, excess oil leaves drive pumps, passes though the hyd filter, then the oil cooler, then back to the charge pump inlet to start the loop over again.
Thanks a lot willie59 You're a huge help. I'm taking my injectors in today to get checked, and then I'll look into that centering plate adjustment. Thanks again!
Isnt that the model that gave trouble with the gasket on the lift pump failing and putting diesel into the crankcase? One of those bobcats did.
that machine may have cable operated steering, typically the only real fix is to replace the steering cables and rod ends both the duetz and kubota engineshave this happen, happens more often on the duetz. as mentioned get the injectors tested. now is the time to replace the fuel return lines at each injector. do yourself a HUGE favor and buy the correct return hose kit. i've seen every type of rigged up POS on those return lines, they ALL leak. i would advise not removing the 4 individual inj pumps without consulting the service manual. it's very easy to bend the fuel rack when reinstalling them. :drinkup
Bad news. Took it into Bobcat of Charleston...what a mess, I picked it up and just left and went to Superior Diesel. They said my crankcase looks to be getting pressure...so piston rings...COMPLETE OVERHAUL! Damn. Not sure on the price yet, still waiting. Any guesses? I've got a $4000 863 C series (guy swears up and down it's hi-flow) that needs rebuilt. Still ahead at this point? No idea what repairs may cost, but even if it's $3000, now it's a $7500 machine ($500 for having injectors rebuilt). Would any of you buy this machine for $8000? Just seeing where I'm at on cost. Better to sell broken for $4500 again, or fix and use a little and then sell? I'm still looking for a complete parts breakdown drawing on this machine. I can't figure out what the switches are at the top left and if I have a single glow plug, and how to activate it? Anyone have the drawing or info? Thanks in advance. Picture is the upper left controls. One switch is missing...not sure what went there...then the toggle switch?
Wait, what happened? Last time I heard we were going to check out the injectors? How did we all of a sudden discover the engine is bad? I mean, I don't expect the engine of a C series vintage to be as peppy as a new engine, but is it really toast?
Thanks for responding, I've been refreshing this page every 10 seconds. So I took it into bobcat of charleston and I was explaining to the mechanic what was going on and he flat out told me he didn't know anything about this machine and would have to read a book on it. Charge me $89/hr to read a book and let me tell him what I thought was wrong. I left, and on my way home felt stupid so I turned around and picked it up. I dropped it off at superior diesel and got a call a while later saying that my crank case was pressurizing....not exactly sure how they figured that out...pulled the dipstick? But anyways...only way for that is the piston rings...so...damn. Unless they assumed the diesel in the oil was rings? I read something about a filter or o-ring doing that too...either way. They are pretty credible...and yeah...this buy may not have been a good buy....pretty dissapointed. Just wondering if Ishould sell broken, or fix and sell. I mean the lights on the back don't work....no idea what the switches are supposed to be up top, can't go full speed because if I push full on the right it turns right and left it turns left...so not balanced...a few problems haha. Damn!
Well, I can't confirm nor deny the worn out motor as I'm not there looking at it. But I'll say this, crankcase pressure, it would have to be making a lot of pressure for me to say it's toast, how it starts and runs means a lot more unless it's puffing like a steam engine out of the crankcase vent or removed oil cap. You mentioned it's hard to get running cold, what about when the engine is warmed up? I can't remember if that engine has glow plugs or intake heater, again, crewcheif888 would know that.
It's not puffing steam out of the crank because I've pulled the oil dipstick while it's running. No smoke, no steam. It takes excessive cranking when cold or not running for a day, once it's ran...it starts right up. Smokes a good bit out of the exhaust, dry smoke...no wetness on pipe. I didn't see glow plugs on each cylinder....I think it has the one intake glow plug....not sure if I leave key in the on position for that to heat up? Man I wish there were definite signs it was only a head gasket...I could change that myself in no time...but I can't overhaul that engine!
If what you just said in your last post is true as true can be, the damn motor ain't worn out. Go through the injectors, and injection pumps if necessary, get the cold start assist working proper, whether glow plugs or intake heater, then run the dang thing for a while. You just got this machine, you don't have enough time in running it to have a good benchmark of it's condition. But if it fires right off when warmed up, and I mean fires right off, I seriously doubt the motor is worn out. Worn maybe, but so is the 300 six cylinder in my old '85 F-150 with a couple hundred thousand miles on it. Yeah, it could probably stand an overhaul, but pffffttttt, it still runs, so I drive it daily.
Willie I'd give anything for a good mechanic here on this machine. I got a voicemail I'd happily forward you today. It said " I had a guy quickly go look it over and it's pressurizing the crankcase and needs the engine overhauled." No compression or drop test...just a "look." Yes, I crank for about 30 seconds to 45 seconds in the morning to start it and it puffs the whole time....Once I've ran it. I crank for 1-2 seconds and it fires right up, no problems. Still smokes. I just want the smoking to stop. I rebuilt all 4 injectors, 3 of 4 were dripping....replaced them...still smoking. Under load it gets worse, but it's dry, soot in exhaust...no oil....No idea how the glow plug works on this thing, would probably make a huge difference...I need someone who knows what they are talking about to walk this machine with me and tell me what the missing button is...if it's hi-flow....how to operate the glow plug, and I need to adjust the steering....it could be a great machine! I'm frustrated when 2 reputable places are guessing at it....it's not guesswork when it's my money! I'm putting this out here!!!! I'll pay anyone on this site $200 to come here to Charleston...give them my house to stay and just look through my machine, use my tools (plenty of them) and help me get it all straightened out!!!!
You need to run the machine over a period of time and check the oil consumption, that's a better indicator of just how bad the engine needs a rebuild as opposed to "taking a quick look at it". Sure, you could do compression tests and all that, I'm just saying run the machine if it runs and establish some form of personal history with it before you shell out the big bucks for spendy repairs, you just got the machine and know nothing about it's quirks.
And I'm not real familiar with the 863 C series, but I'm pretty sure, if it's a Hi Flow machine it's going to have an additional pump that piggybacks off of the work equipment pump.
Good thinking Willie! Maybe I'll just pick it up and play with it. I've got a few jobs I can do with it, and if they don't mind the smoking it should be fine. I don't like backing up my trailer ramps with the smoke, especially not being able to drive straight. Crushed two lights so far haha. It's got personality. Maybe if I get the glow plug thing figured out it will be easier in the morning's. If it is just a head gasket I can change that in a few hours. Do you have any way, or know anyone on here who could get me the exact parts illustration for my tractor?
I've been told that the Bobcat website now provides parts diagrams, but was also told it only works on Internet Explorer, but I still haven't got it to work, maybe it's just me. Aside from that, your local Bobcat dealer should be able to print out parts pages for you, that's what I do.
I'll have to look at the pumps I suppose. Not really sure what I'm looking at. I did go to bobcat today and they printed off something and sent me a link...didn't work on google chrome...guess I'll try internet explorer. Willie, you've been a huge help. Do you think I'm upside down in this machine yet? $4000 and some smoking?
any help?
You're asking the wrong person, I'm a mechanic, I have no idea what machines are worth. It's like year model and horsepower rating, useless info for a mechanic. All we care about is model number and serial number. The pic is the hydrostat drive pumps, pan farther left, the work equipment gear pump piggybacks off of the drive pumps. If it's a hi flow machine, it should have an additional gear pump that piggybacks off of the main work equipment gear pump.
Ok, I'll look at that. So what is that red button there? I'm pretty sure it has some kind of traction lock. My understanding is that if I'm running a backhoe on it, i hit that button and..... Thentheres the aux hydraulic button on here too?
so what's this pump for?
That pic is not of a pump, it's the main control valve for the loader functions. Red button? Don't see a red button in pic, but there is a "red button" control knob on many Bobcat machines that provides a manual descent of loader arms if the machine is dead when loader arms are raised.
Ok, thanks. The red button was on the pic before....right in the center? I have a black knob next to my seat on the right....figured that was the manual descent knob....I have no idea....huge learning curve on this machine.
I'm sure Joe was just trying to save you some $ on the labor.?? When you unscrew the oil fill cap, it blows off in your hand.. same w/ dipstick.. Blow-by tube is saturated w/ oil.. Air intake canister has a 1/4" of dirt in it behind the filter..in the elbow going to the intake.. All you have to do is call him on Monday and request a compression test.. simple as that.
I didn't get a price on it yet. I'm not saying Superior Diesel is wrong, I'm just hoping so lol. I didn't get the details because it was through a voicemail, I was at work. Now knowing that...well ****. Joe has been great through this project, so I'm hoping he'll work with me on the labor as well. Thanks for the info thepumpguysc!
My $.02 is those engines can be a money pit! The crankcase on those is pressurised. They have a pvc system that is supposed to be able to regulate it. They start hard. The glowplugs should be on a switch by the key. Could be what the toggle switch is for? VERY expensive to overhaul!
That's not what I wanted to hear, but thanks for the info. Good to know. So the crankcase should have pressure in it? If that's the case, maybe what "thepumpguysc" said still doesn't rule out something else. I'll go in there Monday and just ask a few questions. There is only a toggle switch and I've been told that should be the lights, there used to be another switch, but doesn't have the switch now. Hmm...anyone have a breakdown on the parts for my specific tractor, or perhaps a pictures of theirs, or know exactly what is what on the picture I posted earlier on panel by the key? Thank you
I think you need to slow down and do one thing at a time. Block it up off the ground and look up the adjustment info on this forum and get the neutral set first. But before doing anything clean that air cleaner and put in a clean filter. . It sounds like maintenance on it has been neglected and you are into it for 4500 now might as well do that first. Then fix the pre heat problem and use it like Willie said , a little use and you will be able to tell what to do next.
Thanks stovein. Baby steps...I may have gotten ahead of myself. I'll be getting it back monday and go about that route, unless they tell me it's less than $2000 to rebuild...might as well at 5500 hours. We'll see. The preheat problem is hard to diagnose...not knowing how this system works. I'm pretty certain it has the one intake preheater...but is it key operated, or the mysterious missing button I have in the pictures?
the little red thing the OP mentioned is the chaincase vent. some duetz engines had an air intake heater some had 4 individual glow plugs. by the looks of the lh dash, i'm thinking the light switch is missing, and the other switch isnt an OEM bobcat switch, but i think thats where the glow plug switch is located. the glow plugs are manually activated, key on push the switch to power them release to shut them off. check so see if you are getting power back at the glow plug (or heater). hard cold starts are some of the hardest things to diagnose without being there. some of the causes could be loose or dry rotted fuel lines bad primer bulb cracked fuel pickup hose in the tank (letting fuel bleed back while parked bad connection at fuel shutoff solenoid or bad solenoid slow cranking speed ( battery, cables, possibly bad starter glow plugs not working ( fuse, relay, switch, wiring, or bad glow plugs) low compression ^^^ listed in the order i'd start checking typically the duetz was a good cold weather starting machine, and rarely needed glow plugs when above 40* F :drinkup
Any idea how to "activate" the glow plug on mine? I'm pretty sure it's a single element in the intake. What is the mysterious missing button in the picture above?
sorry crewchief, just saw your response...my bad...reading it now I really appreciate you addressing that switch issue! I'll get it back monday and check for the heater, and then figure it out. Time to dig in...looking forward to it!