Hey guys. I just finished replacing the cylinder head on my T190 after an overheating issue caused the head to crack and blow the gasket. Everything on the repair seemed to go pretty smoothly but the darn thing won't start now. I cracked all of the fuel lines at the injectors until fuel was spurting out but still no luck. It sounds like it wants to start and is blowing a dark grey smoke as it turns over. What am I missing? Was there some adjustment that got screwed up during the process? I knew it was all going too smoothly!! I appreciate any and all thoughts and suggestions.
Is there a plastic bag in the intake somewhere? Otherwise timing is all I can think of, but how could you mess that up??? You can't mix up the injection lines/order, could you?
Haha no pretty sure all plastic bags were removed. From what i understand timing is controlled by the fuel pump which was not touched. No the injection lines are all pre bent and cant be mixed up. Maybe I have a bad connection on the glow plugs?
Possible issue with the valve lash setting procedure? Could be some loss of compression from the overheat, piston rings lost their tension or are cooked stuck in the piston grooves. Try some WD40 in the intake with the air cleaner removed, see if the lubricant and volatile stuff will help it light.
When I went out w/ my back problems there was 6, 190's in the yard w/ various engine problems from a rental co.. GOD I hate those things!! It took 1 guy 3 tries to seal a head gasket.. kept getting coolant in the oil after the gasket change.. I 2nd the GP connection.. Have I told you how much I hate working on those machines.??
I just checked the glow plugs and they all have the correct resistance. The connection seems to be good?? Getting very frustrated now!!
Are the glow plugs getting voltage before cranking? did you check the valves again?
I checked the valves and all seem to be good unless I am doing it wrong? There is power to the glow plugs.
i just tore things back apart. When i pulled the intake manifold off the middle two cylinders were "wet". Any thoughts?
wet as in coolant leak into cyl's? If so, head gasket, or a crack somewhere is possible...
Sounds like it wasn't firing on the middle two, wet with diesel? For it to fire it needs compression and fuel, at the right time. I suppose you could check the valves for leaking, turn the head upside down and fill the valve recess with a little gas to see if it leaks through. Check the head and block with a straight edge and feeler gauges. I suppose with "inline pumps" the injection lines don't cross over like they do with a rotary pump, so they'd be pretty obvious if they were swapped, right? Maybe check the injectors in the middle two. Do they have to be "aimed", is there any way they go in the wrong way. Or maybe you just didn't give it enough time to bleed the air out of the injectors? Checking valves is simple, get one cylinder to TDC (both valves tight or tight within a small rotation) and it's pair (mirror image) cylinder will be TDC on the compression stroke to check the valve tappet clearance with feeler gauge. Also make sure those two center cylinders have the same lift as the outer two, you can do this with the head off just as easily as on.
Pull the injectors and have them checked.. Check EACH glow plug.. Just because you have voltage to the GP rail, doesn't mean they ALL are getting hot. Just hit each one w/ 12v and SEE if they get hot. I cant remember if the injectors are indexed.. that's to say, will only go in 1 way.. Save yourself some $$ and fill w/ water in the cooling system on the first start-up.. See post #5. oil and coolant HAD TO be changed 3x.. Once its back together, valves are adjusted, do a compression test. Keep us informed..
Yes it is wet with oil or diesel. The outer two are bone dry. The valves have been adjusted but I can triple check them. I am having the injectors tested today. They do only go in one way and the lines can't be crossed. Of course the fuel return line broke on me as i was pulling the injectors so I have to grab a new one as well as a new intake manifold gasket. Will be a few days before I can get it back together I am guessing. I will let you know how the injectors test out and I will check each glow plug as well.
Gasket might be okay if it was new and the engine not started but it sounds like the valves might be a little tight and they're pumping up and holding open.
how would I adjust or remedy that?
Add 50% to the valve clearance. If the spec is .012", make it .018". Valve clearance keeps coming up because they are the obvious thing to change when you swap a head. I agree, the head gasket is fine to reuse. Unless it's not sealing between the middle two, you could crank it with the fuel injection shut off and see how it sounds for the compression test by ear. But you have the injectors out, put the head back on, set the valves and crank it to get the compression readings.
Silly question, did you have to move the valve adjuster screws a long ways when setting the valve lash?
No the valve adjustment was very minor. I may be on to something though. I just had the injectors tested and all tested out fine. In discussing my issues with the guy that did the testing he had an idea. The fittings that the fuel lines attach to on the pump were moved which I now understand can throw everything off. I am going to pull the pump and bring it back to him to have it recalibrated and such. He is confident that is the issue. Cross your fingers!
Save yourself a lot of trouble.. 14mm socket and a torque wrench. 30-35 ft lbs.. YOU MUST TIME THE PUMP before pulling it off.!!!
So the pump has been rebuilt and tested but still no luck in getting it to start. I even removed the muffler today to make sure there isn't an issue there. I guess I need to get a compression tester now and see if I have a real major problem.
I'll still put a six pack on collapsed or stuck rings from the overheat. Let us know what the compression test shows....
I really couldn't see where the pump could have gotten damaged from overheating the engine. and even if you had loosened the outlets on the pump, the worse thing to happen, was a leak.. A compr. test is definatly in order here. If you don't have the tools, the pump shop might loan them to you.. OR make you an adaptor.. just a thought..
whenever I tested compression and it was low, an easy trick to determine if it was bad valves or the rings was to squirt some heavy weight oil in the low cylinder,if the compression went up, bad rings( the heavy weight oil temporary seals the rings alittle) if nothing then the valves..not full proof but gives more info to go on..
I will keep an eye on mine
Thanks everyone. I am trying to track down a compression testing tool to see what it says. I will keep everyone posted.
Ok i just did the compression test. Both numbers 1 and 4 cylinders tested out perfect. 2 and 3 were very low (under 150). Those are the cylinders where the cracks were on the head. So it would seem that is my issue. Do i need an entire engine rebuild? Is there anything I can do to try and fix this easily?
The short answer is>> NO, no easy fix. The engine has to come out. and its easier to get a reman.. Those engines are known to be disposable.. Bolt the OLD HEAD back on and get a reman engine. By the time you tear it down, or pay someone to do it.. get it to the machine shop to check the block for cracks, order the parts and rebuild it.. your into reman money.. I'm sure you can recoupe your money for the new head.. if advertised with the back story..
So just to add a little more information.... I poured some oil into the weak cylinders and it increased the compression by 30-50 psi so it would seem that the rings are shot. Looks like I will be pulling the engine! yeah
Does anybody sell a shortblock that I could use the new head on?
ONLY 30-50?? Its been my experience that when doing the oil test, the pressure jumps by ATLEAST 100.. IF its rings. You might want to revisit the valve adjustment.. if a valve is hanging up and not closing when it should, compression will escape giving you a false reading. Remember, you want to get enough oil in the cyl. to cover the top of the piston and have the oil fall off the sides to create an oil seal.. then test. quickly. BTW> what are you calling "perfect" pressure on the other 2 cylinders.? over 300psi??
You will HAVE TO get the engine #'s off your current engine to find a replacement.. get ALL the #'s from the tag.. They come w/ different hp ratings with turbo and non turbo versions..
I get mine from EPS in SC.. Engine Power Source.. They build to suit.. and keep a good stock.. VERY SLOW on delivery, nothing is delivered on time.. Lost orders.. on and on.. BUT.. I HAVE NEVER had to touch or remove an engine they had done.. Quality of work is excellent but lacking in other departments.. Might take you 3 or 4 calls.. 1 to order, 2 to confirm, 3 & 4 to find the dam thing.. only to find they had misplaced the original order.. lol
with the engine being overheated, the block could be warped and loosing compression between the head and block, the gasket wont seal that up, new engine in order, or if you want to go for a short block and start messing with it..
The readings on number 1 and 4 were 440psi which is right at the upper end of spec.
I would definatly say, that's perfect.. it sux about the other 2 tho..
Something to try yet would be to remove the rocker arms or pushrods and then put shop air pressure into each cylinder one at a time and see where it comes out. If the heads gasket is not sealing between 2 and 3. The air you put the in 2 will come out number 3 glow plug hole or injector whichever you removed to do compression test. If it comes out the intake or exhaust then the new head is no good.
I will have to give that a shot. Might help to make a final determination
And if no air comes out of the intake, exhaust, or the other cylinder, then check the crankcase breather. If the outside two cylinders are that perfect, I'd be tempted to pull the middle two pistons and check the rings. That probably means pulling the engine though, right?
After doing the air test I think I will pull the head off again. Once I have it off is there a way to determine for sure if it's the rings or not? I assume I need a real good straight edge to check for a warped block?
Could you walk me through this a bit further? Couldn't I rotate the engine until the valves are both closed on say #2 and blow air in through the glow plug hole and see if it escapes somewhere?
It works best if all the valves are closed and in the same place when you are tying to find out where the shop air is going... hence the reason for pulling the pushrods.
Ahhh ok that makes sense. Thanks. I will try and find some time tomorrow to do that.
Keep hands out of the way of fan, belts, pulleys, etc., as when you apply air to each cylinder the piston will find BDC in what may be an abrupt fashion. Been there done did that, lol
LAN to the rescue AGAIN.!! How many of US has THAT happened too.?? and WE forgot to mention that.. THAT WHY.. LAN is the best.!!!:notworthy Probably saved a finger or two Lan.. or at the very least, a spilled beer.. Lol
Aw shucks, lol :cool2
I did the air test today. I pushed air through the glow plug hole and the air was coming right out the exhaust! Numbers 1 and 4 were super tight and the middle ones the air was rushing right out the exhaust. So it would appear that I received a bad head? I have it pulled right now. A buddy suggested spraying wd-40 into the exhaust ports and seeing if it leaked out the valves. One of them did for sure the other it wasn't noticeable as much. Those two were thick full of carbon sludge so I am thinking that mixed with the wd-40 may have "sealed" it enough to not see it dripping out. Looks like I will be calling the company i got the head from tomorrow and making a complaint!
Huh? Don't forget, adding the oil reduced the combustion chamber space which will raise the compression pressure even if there was no leakage by the rings on the first test without oil. Sounds like you might have this figured out easier than a new engine.
That's odd.. 2&3 is where the ORIGINAL problem started.. cracked head. You don't suppose they rebuilt your original head and sent it back to you w/ a cracked head.?? Unless, that's a common problem w/ those Kubota heads and they just missed it on their stock rebuild.. I feel for ya pondguy.. IF it is indeed their problem, I would ask for a discount or free shipping.. something to take the sting out.. Good luck..
They didn't rebuild my head as it was supposed to be new. I just checked on it and I can see the WD-40 has leaked out around those two valves. Does seem like a coincidence that those were the original two problem cylinders. Hopefully they step up and help.
I dont know for fact, but if its a common problem then you got someone elses overheated head they rebuilt and sent out to you, if you were going to buy brand new head, that should be from a dealer, not a rebuilder..
Figured I would give an update here. I finally got a new head sent to me under warranty. The first one was definitely bad. After spraying wd-40 in the exhaust ports you could see it leaking out the valves. I got the new one bolted on and figured I would do the air test before I got too far along. Well wouldn't you know numbers 2 and 3 still wouldn't hold air and you could feel it escaping from the push rod holes. So off the head came again! I then decided I would pour some mystery oil into each cylinder to see if it holds and 2 and 3 drained out in under an hour. So clearly the rings are shot. I believe I owe someone a 6 pack on that! Lol The cylinders really appear to be in good shape so I am leaning towards a rebuild rather than a replacement. Any tips or tricks on pulling the engine?
If its possible, pull the machine up on a couple of RR ties. That little bit of UP makes a world of difference. MAKE SURE you have enough head room to pull the engine.. A good chain hoist on a trolley. cuz you have to lift AND swing it, out of the way of the machine. A fork lift will work w/a good operator and a 2nd pair of eyes. OLD clothes and lots of rubber gloves.. and don't forget the pressure washer and OIL DRY.. that thing is gonna be dirty. Good luck and stay warm..
Can I pull just the engine or does the hydro pump have to come with it?
Has anyone here pulled just the engine on a bobcat and not the engine and pump? It looks like I can remove the flywheel and then a few bolts from the plate and it will come right out. I just don't know if I am asking for trouble. The machine is in my garage so I can't raise the can to get at all of the hydraulic lines.