we currently have two old skid steer Bobcats 743 and 753 I have a small general contracting company mostly residential hardscapes and snow removal in the winter, the two machines that we own are hand me downs. are business is expanding and the need for a bigger machine to compliment the two older ones is a necessity we are in the market to upgrade to a bigger track style machine for jobs in dirt. I have been told a Cat 277 is the way to go for size and power. but i don't know to much of the difference between the B-C-D models besides undercarriage designs , if anyone else has suggestions or advice it would be greatly appreciated , I would like to stay under the 30k price tag , I also have been leaning towards Cat to try something different , this would be our first track machine since the other two are wheeled , i assume a lot more labor and parts for those undercarriage pieces when things wear out. We are a small company so its easy for us to be meticulous with maintenance . .....this is my first post so great to be jump into online community Thanks
Welcome to the Forums jmvconstruction!:drink up I currently run two T250's one is a 2004/5 and the other is a 2008/9 model. The older one is sitting at the shop with 2k hours on the clock needed the hyd. quick tach and something in the steering pump fixed. To be fair that machine was rode hard and put up wet. The newer T250 is currently working on site and has 1K hours on the clock. I just got back from Conexpo and the two track machines that impressed me the most were the Takeuchi and Waker Nueson's new CTL. Not impressed with the new Cat CTL's, lift the operators cage up and it looks like a data center behind the seat, it has so many wires and components. Just imagine what a nightmare that will be with 2K dusty hours on the clock, trying to find which wire is broke internally out of thousands while the machine is dead on the job. But you were talking used so my suggestion would be to look at Tak's or the older cats without the ASV undercarriage. If you find a T250 in decent shape that is cheap, I wouldn't shy away from it either just be prepared to spend some money on it.
is it safe to say the newer bobcat machines are heavy on maintenance repair an down time>?
Wait, what?
i was referring to the t250 he said expect to spend some money
Ok, got it. I think that applies to any used machine that you find at a low price with some hours on it. A Cat 277 in the "less than 30K range" would most likely be a 277B. The C and D models are typically over 30K. The 277B has the ASV undercarriage, you will be spending some money maintaining/repairing it. The T250 is a solid and durable machine, less undercarriage problems as opposed to the ASV undercarriage, and far easier to perform undercarriage repairs. In the Bobcat models, the standard controls will be the least problematic, the Advanced Hand Controls or Selectable Joystick Controls are more apt to have occasional problems as they add layers of components and complexity that is not inherent with the standard controls. You can find T250 machines in the 20 - 30K range.
Tak T140 or t150. Nothing else even matters, reliability ,power, ease of maintainence, simple!!!
B,C,D have nothing to do with undercarraige they are just the series of the machine. The ones with no letter behind the model are Cat's first series from when they first started building them in the late 90s. B series is the next generation machine. I don't know much about what all changed. B2 Series is the next generation. Again I don't know about about them either. B3 is the last generation of B series machines, dont remember when they were introduced but they were sold up until last year when the D series came out however the 216B3 and 226B3 are still available as they have no D series replacement. I do know a lot of the wiring is different and cleaned up in these compared to the B2's I have seen. The larger ones also use a Mitsubishi motor. I dont remember if it was B2 or just B models that used the bigger perkins but IIRC it had some issues. See "another perkins pukes" on here for details. The smaller machines use a 2.2L perkins with less issues AFAIK. I do notice that ours hates starting in cold weather but I havenever ran a perkins that did. C series was introduced around 06-07 and sold along side some B series machines. Unlike previous machines it was a ground up change. Single piece frame, new single piece pressurized cab, and rearrangement of many things. A lot of creature comforts were added to these as well as other features like ride control. One thing many people do not like as much is the EH controls. The previous series machines all had pilot controls. The C series machines are very large dimensions wise. I think there comfortable to operate but the EH controls do **** me off at times. C2 series is not really any different, they detuned some models and renamed them the C2's for emissions. Nothing really changed though. D series is confusing a bit too. You have the original D series machines which were the 272D, 299D and their XHP counterparts and were sold alongside the C2 and B3 machines. Then last year the new D series came out which replaced the previous D series and also replaced the C/C2 series machines and all but the 216 and 226 in the B series lineup. D series machines got Kubota motors (3.8 IT4 in big ones, 3.3 T4F in little ones), new boom design, new cab, new display with backup camera, new attachement plate and many other things that are fairly nice but would take too long to list. I did a review on them a few pages back. Cat's model numbers can be pretty confusing especially when it comes to the series because they never full replaced an existing series with the new series, they were sold along side each other. Its best to know the model year to know what you really have. The rest of it is fairly straightforward but again I don't know the older machines very well. Here's a breakdown. 2: The first number is a 2 to represent its place in Cat's full lineup. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9: These number denote the size machine. 2,6,7,9: These numbers denote the configuration. 2 is a wheeled machine with vertical lift, 6 is a wheel machine with radial lift, 7 is an MTL machine, 9 is a CTL machine. B,B2,B3,C,C2,D: The series the machine is. The MTL undercarraige has a nice ride and is nice for soft lawns and such, but for heavy work it is fragile. The MTL undercarriage is from the earlier years when Cat partnered with ASV. They made componenets for ASV and Cat used their undercarraige. The ASV was designed for it though and the Cat machines were just converted to use it. They don't work bad on the Cats but work better on the ASV/Terex Posi-Trac. I don't operate CTLs/MTL's so I'll let the others tell you more about those. In the past Tak was well liked as well. I'd much rather have them neatly arranged behind the cab then somewhere else in the elements. They have had a lot behind the cab since the C series and it doesn't seem to be a huge issue for people or I think' we'd hear a lot more about it, 1800 very dusty hours on our 262C2 without issues. Now the D series does not pull any air in from the sides so those components should stay even cleaner. I like how easy everything under the cab is to work on now with the D series. Tracking a broken wire takes a lot of time as it is, if you are in a rush on a job site and dont want to waste a lot of time a scan tool can find it quickly. Every wire is labeled. Sometimes its easier to have the guys with the right tools. I like fixing stuff myself too but also know some people who let their pride get in the way of reality.
wow great info thanks so much!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My point is that I would rather not have all the electronics in the first place. It's not a matter of if but when all of those electronics begin to fail.
I have seen the spaghetti nests of almost everyone's machines and they are all getting more electronics. The fact is that the CAT Tier IV machines don't have much more electronics behind the cab than the C series had and they were pretty problem free. I's also think that Cat has some pretty good experience getting electronics to live in pretty rough environments- mining, forestry, feedlots, dairies, ethanol plants, foundries, transfer stations, etc. so I wouldn't be anymore worried about Cat over any of the others. Deutsch connectors are amazing things and todays wiring harnesses are pretty well sealed.
I had a 98 763 bobcat and it was a great machine that was easy to work on only had the usual wear and tear items to replace and fix. We fell in love with our 08 226 with joysticks. It's a 10 years difference and the cat has more to go wrong and is more $$ to work on. We have some of the new bobcats s530 I think at work and s185's and for being brand new they are not that impressive. I felt like I was getting in my 763. Bobcats don't seem to be as nice as the other brands. I don't have any experience with tracked machines other than a few hours in a 259 that was a pretty nice machine..
Okay then drive a 1970s pickup, and run 1990s SSL's. Someday you have to weigh out the options. Our Fendt is retard if you consider the amount of things that "can" go wrong. The difference is they spend a lot of time and money making it high quality and they test the **** outta it. Gives me a lot of confidence in it and in 600hrs the only failures we have had with it are MECHANICAL. A hydraulic line cracked, the air line to the governor on the air compressor came off and the head on the DEF sending unit cracked. Now our Massey's they do not test them well and bid the components out to the cheapest bidder, it shows, we had nothing but electrical trouble with those things. The two issues we have had with our Cat SSL's have been mechanical as well. In over 11,000hrs on our Volvo L60E, we had a ground issue for awhile that took some work to find but otherwise its been fairly trouble free electronics wise. I think its more fear that actuality among some people when it comes to electronics. At one point we all moved from a horse and plow to a tractor and from a horse and carraige to a car. It may have been a big fear for some people but I dont see any of them anymore outside the amish and I know many Amish with electronic skid steers that have steel wheels on them, even they understand you have to move forward at one point. You can tell the quality of a machines electronic system by looking at what connectors they use (Duetsch being the highest quality on most equipment), how they attach their loom and where they us it, how they fasten the harness, how they route wires and the added labeling on each wire is a nice touch. Cat also pre-wires the machines for the options so there is not many dealer techs adding in harnesses that could cause issues down the road. Most wiring failures are due to improper repair/ improper modifications to the OEM harness of any make or model, its not often the OEM stuff has issues.
I have been running equipment for 28 years, started out on a 1986 (new at the time) Bobcat 843. When I turned 16 and got my drivers license, I pulled that machine around with a F350, grading and backfilling houses. Currently I have 5 pieces of yellow iron, the oldest is a 2003 and the newest is a 2011, 3 pieces of white iron (Bobcat) and a 1998 Gradall 543D6. The Gradall is the simplest machine electronic wise and the easiest to repair. Through the years I have seen the evolution of electronics in equipment and the troubles that come along with it. So I would say I have "weighed out the options". It's not fear, it's just experience.
The evolution was tough, but a lot of the newer stuff has the improvements because of where they failed. If you want to be able to fix it yourself then many feel the older stuff is nicer. There is still plenty of stuff on the newer ones though that a good multimeter and operator can fix. Many people do not like electrical diagnostics and prefer nuts and bolts which is fine. I don't mind possibly having to find a broken wire versus having to constantly adjust mechanical machines or fix worn parts. As for weighing out options, you are probably right about skid steers, I was talking about equipment in general. The amount of savings a lot of the newer equipment can provide doesn't make a lot of sense to stay with the older more inefficient stuff.