If it checks out OK. It has a backhoe attachment and six way blade. I'll look at it tomorrow morning. Seller says it has 5K hours, 65% tracks and everything is good and it starts at the touch of the key. I told him I want to start it cold and do a half hour of blade work to warm up the H-L-R transmission. I need a hoe that can handle steep terrain without killing me. I have a couple hundred acres of stumps and brush. I need to build a couple roads and dig a foundation, work a few burn piles and clean the place up. I plan to weld a mechanical thumb on it. I can't find any excavators in this region that suit my budget and this may be better for road building anyway, though a hydraulic thumb would be a lot handier for all the brush. It has the long track, which I guess I don't really want. This is all rocky decomposed shale around here. Any pitfalls to the 450E I should look for? I read something about welded crossmembers on 450C's, is this an issue with the E also? Where do I look for the welds, is it in the engine compartment?
Memory is sketchy but I believe by the time the "E"s came along most of the weak points in the "C"s had been addressed. You will like the long track for road building, especially with the weight of the hoe on the back. Check out Amulet thumbs, great compromise between a fixed thumb and a hydraulic.
Thanks for the reply. I looked up Amulet. They have several different kinds of thumbs. Were you thinking of this one? http://www.equipmentland.com/produc...ion-Mechanical-Thumb%2dStarting-at-$2295.html I was thinking of an el cheapo weld on thumb. Building roads thru trees and brush will probably entail a lot of switching from digging to stacking, getting in and out of the seat to reposition the thumb, but I'm retired and I need the exercise.
Manual thumb might not be a very good situation on a backhoe. An excavator can quickly track ahead or back to get the thumb at the proper angle to grab stuff, IMHO.
Yep, Hoeclamp, I had forgotten that. Used to be the only kind they made, back when rocks and I were young, lol
Which backhoe attachment? My 450B has the 9300...and right now the control valves need rebuilding due to drift on the swing when the oil is warm. Orings are in stock and just waiting for time! Howard
I think the welding you are speaking of is where the cross bar attaches to the track frame. The early C's on back had a rattle bar that was supposed to float? on the track frame supposedly, but in reality broke the bolts off and made a racket on rough ground(my fine grading). The quick fix was to weld the crossbar to the track frame which never worked, the bar is cast steel and the track frame isn't, coupled with all the other factors made a loose joint that broke more bolts. The late C's on had a solid bolt down and far fewer problems. I think the E's still used a C channel frame so look it over carefully for cracks and breaks. With that heavy beast on the tail of the machine, you will appreciate the long track frame.
It looks like a 9300 to me but I'm no expert. One thing I worry about is that swing reduction box box thingie it has instead of 2 cylinders. I imagine there are no parts to be had if it breaks. That sounds like something I could sew back together with 7018, assuming I can get to it. Pic from sellers ad:
Yes, that looks like a 9300, and the swing mechanism is a rotary vane motor, and since it is available into the late 80's-early 90's parts are available and rebuilds of the unit have been discussed on the forum. My 9300 came with a 30" bucket, with bad teeth and a scalloped cutting edge, and I found a 18" digmor bucket in good shape for it, to be used in trenching. What I thought was interesting was that the front loader bucket, existing bucket 30" bucket and used 17" bucket all used the 23 or 230 series teeth. Some previous owner/welder/mechanic decided to WELD the teeth to the shanks on the 30" bucket, so I think with some 3/4" plate and some grouser bar for a cutting edge I will rebuild the 30" bucket into a smooth edge for grading and finish work on ditches and footings. Howard
That's comforting to know, I thought it was a throw away attachment as I'm told the old Case version of that attachment is. I have to do about 60 yards of digging in fractured bedrock (shale), so I'll definitely need good teeth and a smaller bucket, if I can find one, which might transfer more force to the ground. I've never done that before so it'll be a learning experience. I'm off to go look at it now.
even if the tracks are at 65%, I'd go prepared to measure them. Most of the track parts are available as long as you are willing to spend the money. IMO, if you are going to be doing much pushing, I'd get real handy at dropping that hoe off the back end.
All the track parts are available either JD or aftermarket, I got a entire new undercarriage for 450B, track, chain, sprocket, idlers. The procedure for dropping the hoe is on a recent post from the last six weeks or so. JD is better at keeping parts available since they are still owned by JD, Case has been sold a number of times, and now owned by Fiat. Try these guys for narrow bucket, the have a 12" listed... https://www.attachmentzone.com/brow...ke=John+Deere&model=9300&machine_type=Backhoe Howard
The parts for the 450's were common at least through the G series, probably still using the same stuff for today's model whatever it is. They've made improvements but kept the mounting and bolt patterns the same over the years. There are so many thousands of those machines still out there they I am fairly sure I will be long buried before the undercarriage spares become scarce. Transmission parts and such are whole different ball of wax, but I still consider the E series to be brand new, lol.
Here, try this thread on backhoe removal: HeavyEquipmentForums
I was warned never to buy the backhoe with the swing motor (pref. cylinders), that it was very expensive to rebuild. I don't know about the E model but on the C model, the dozer had a smaller hydraulic pump than the loader model which is why you see most backhoes are mounted on crawler loaders. In addition the loader had a longer track frame than the dozer to better handle the extra weight of the loader model, and a backhoe if mounted. I have a 450D which is still going strong.
Thanks to all for the replies! Everything checked out good other than a few worn pins/bushings and weeping bucket and dipper cylinders. No electronics on it that I can see, I love it! I gave the seller a cashiers check for $14,500. Old iron is 15% more expensive here in Western Montana. I would have estimated them at 70%. I won't wear them out in my lifetime. I only need it for 200 or 300 hours. That 12" looks enticing. I'll have to see how the existing bucket works in fractured bedrock before I get one. I do have about 1000' of waterlines to put in but I may just rent a trencher to do them rather than change positions in the dozer/backhoe that many times. Thanks, I'm glad I read that thread and Welder Dave's comment " The most important thing to remember is never run the machine with the hoses disconnected. The hoe either has to be hooked up or the 2 quick couplers coupled together or you will dead head the pump." I hope I don't have a senior moment and forget. The swing motor works perfect and silent. Has funny markings and reddish paint like it came off another machine or was rebuilt. I bet they have planetary reduction gears in them too. If so, I'll drain the gear oil and check for metal. Seems to work fine with the dozer pump. This one is the long track model. Maybe the long track dozer and the 455 are the same rails. Edit: No manuals of any kind included with the dozer. I'll have to check ebay for what's out there.
That's a great deal for a D model with a backhoe. I don't believe there are any gears in the swing unit, but I can't swear to it.
Thanks. It's an E model.
Well, that's what I meant, lol, which means it's an even better deal!
If it's a good deal elsewhere, it's a REAL good deal around here. It'll be delivered Monday, I'm eager to run it. I've been watching Craigslist for almost a year. I was also going to look at a late sixties JD400 diesel backhoe loader today, sounded like a real good deal at 4K, was being sold out of an estate by the executor, when I got back from buying this one it was already sold. Good deals on Craigslist don't last 2 days around here.
My Cat has a rotary swing motor and I had to have it repaired. There are no gears in it. It is basically a single vane in the middle and is turned by putting oil to one side or the other. Mine was leaking because the shaft was worn. The shaft was built up by metalizing (spray welding I think) and then it was rebuilt. They seals on the vane were in good shape and reused (not easy to find) and the seals and O-rings for the 2 end caps were replaced with new. The shop that did it had never seen one before and I suspect that might be part of the reason it cost about $1300 to R&R. Nige from here did send me the repair guide for it which was a big help. The metalizing was only $300 and some. It works and doesn't leak so I'm happy. I'd imagine the JD rotary cylinders are similar. If it works and isn't leaking I wouldn't worry about it too much. I read a bunch of stuff on removing/installing these cylinders using a special tool that bolted to it. I got it off OK without this tool but was perplexed on how to get back in. Then I had a light bulb moment. The cylinder has an upper and lower mount with 2 plates that fit on the spline of the shaft and also hold the cylinder on. I bought 2 length's a 3/4" readi-rod and cut them in half to replace the mounting bolts. Then I used an engine crane with a strap around the cylinder and another little chain to hold it level. I slid it on the 4 pieces of readi-rod that were sticking out in the open and just used nuts to hold it in place while I slid it into position. It was easy and didn't need a special tool or having to loosen one of the very tight bolts holding the cap on. It would have been a lot easier taking it off too. If you're doing lots of work with just the loader, take the hoe off but block it up so it doesn't creep down where the hoses are too short to connect.
Thanks for the info. I'll be gentle with the swing and hope it doesn't spill it's guts out while I own it. Having worked on and operated so many hydraulic cranes, all of which had hydraulic motors running swing reduction boxes at pretty extreme ratios and still not being slow enough, I just assumed those boxes were chock full of planetary gears. I suppose the internal design is different from most vane motors, or use orifices to slow it down, as ordinary vane motors would be extremely jerky.
They're tougher than you think, the usual failure mode is exactly what Welder Dave says, the shaft starts leaking out the ends due to wear. The really nice thing about the vane unit as opposed to cylinders is you get absolutely constant speed and torque with the vane unit. Cylinders due to the nature of changing force angles throughout their strokes will give varying speed and power depending on where the boom is from straight. Most operators probably never notice it because it just is what it is.
IIRC I was also told back then that the swingmotor was not made by JD but was a "Harricana". (They made log loaders for trucks IIRC) I don't have a backhoe for my Deere 450D dozer, but I have a Deere 310SE bh, a Cat 320L ex and a Kubota 310 articulated loader with a bh on it.
I don't recall that name, but yes I remember from selling Deere parts for them that they were referred to by the manufacturer's actual name, they were used in a variety of backhoes I believe. There's a Cessna unit that is very similar if not the same. The repair kit is still available from Deere for less than $250.... sweet.
Cessna were used on ** backhoes and some others. I think mine might actually be made by Cat possibly in Japan where it was made. There's no markings on it at all. I like the fact that the one I have pivots from the shaft at the top and bottom. Some only pivot from one end. I've heard the splines can wear out so check to make sure the bolts are tight. My splines were in good shape. The hoses to run the swing cylinder are smaller and there's some kind of cushioning for the last part of travel so they don't slam to the stops. The Cessna units have special little valves and seem a little more complicated. There's an overhaul of one posted on the net. JD apparently had a kit to convert it to the 2 cylinder design but it required a lot of work.
I have seen swing motors on cranes that had an adjustable orifice/check valve on each hose at the motor. They didn't slow it down but softened the blow considerably. The check valve allowed the returning oil to move freely and the oil coming in was subject to the orifice. When you let go of a swing lever, the momentum of the swinging hoe probably shocks the swing motor and cavitates.
It's different than a hyd. motor. The Cessna units have some kind valves where the hoses connect. I'm not sure how the Cat cushioning valves work. Also if the hoe is lifted up but the machine is sitting on an angle, the boom will slowly creep to the low side. This is common and doesn't mean there's anything wrong unless it falls quite fast. My hoe swings 190 deg's. which is nice but one thing you have to watch is the bucket can contact the stabilizers/cylinders when the boom is turned to either side. I've pulled or pushed myself out many times using the hoe. I like the Cat operating position better than the JD because you use just flip the seat back over and use the same seat. The JD has a separate seat mounted higher so you can't operate the transmission when using the hoe. I'd like to make mounts so I can attach levers to operate the steering pedals when using the hoe. It would save a lot time repositioning. The hoe has good digging force and can pull the machine around. I have a 30" bucket and don't have much trouble digging packed clay.