All I've ever heard from anyone but my grandfather is that hydraulic is way better than cable so what are the pros and cons of cable and hydraulic. I'm just looking for the general consensus about which is generally better and all that garbage.
Yair . . . caterpillarRy . My favourite tractor of all time was a D7 with a cable blade (front mounted PCU) with hydraulic tilt and a set of three tine rippers. Generally speaking I believe the 'advantages' of hydraulic blades are overstated. The latest PCU's before they were phased out were absolutely reliable and cost little to maintain. I have only run one 'converted' scoop and it was a pain . . . slooow and always blowing hoses. I'm sure it was just that particular unit and obviously most conversions or new units are very satisfactory. One poster on here (tct tractors) seems to like the cable scoops and says in England they are common and popular and folks still buy DDPCU's from Komatsu the only company still making them. One unique feature of cable gear is that one tractor can do some serious earthmoving. I have asked on here before how you can run a scoop and rippers with a single 'modern' hydraulic tractor and no one seems to want to tell me. (he grins) Hope this gets a discussion going. Cheers
By scoop do you mean scraper?
I have seen one cable machine running in 15 years of fixing. The cable machiune looks pretty bullet proof literaly. You don't have any hoses to get hung when clearing. No pumps to wear out or cross contaminate your system. I like hydraulics but you have to be up on system operation to know how to fix them.
There esencially bullet proof only little tiny things break occasionally break but if the side plate of the winch hasn't been tooken off in a while it can be a bitch to fix
Yair . . . oregon96pd Sorry about that. Yes mate, I mean towed scraper, in your talk I think a 'pan' or a 'can'. I think the Pom's call them a 'box' we call them 'scoops'. Cheers
I figured as much, just wanted to make sure Scrub Puller. What would keep a guy from adding another set of valve's to a machine? Or if the blade isn't needed on the scraper duty use the blade control valve, with one extra spool. Not sure if any of these idea's would work or not as I've never been around a dozer pulled pan, I don't work with the antiques road show :tong
At one place I worked there were four 14As, one 13A, and one 17A. Three of the 14As had double drums and one was a front unit. The 17A was a front unit and the 13A was a double rear unit. Back then men were men and real cat skinners had deep scars on their hands and maybe arms from working on cable units. The cable units could be far harder to keep running in the hands of an idiot of which we had a few. To pick the blade up you snapped the clutch control in to prevent slipping. The idiots thought they could feel them in and the clutches burned in a hurry. Changing cable was a pain no matter what and especially bad when the idiots two blocked and snapped the lines. We used cable grease to help the lines last longer and it made a sticky mess out of the machine. Adjusting the clutches and brakes took a procedure and every winch had a personality. You did your adjusting with the engine shut down because a stuck clutch wouldn't feel a thing as it wound you through the sheaves. You started the engines on the pony with the diesel engine fuel off because if the clutch stuck you could throw out the pony clutch and stop the blade from snapping a line. Then you had to slack the brake off and try to stay out of the way of the lines again. The rear double drums were easier to do because of this. The blocks also had to be greased regular or the bearings would crack or stick from heat. Rebuilding one of those units was also a pain as there was always lots of needles and burrs to cut your hands up. On the other hand we had a couple of old timers that started when horses were the only way to pull a plow, scraper or a log. Those guys could work wonders with all the tricks they knew. Pitch the blade one way and it would dig by itself. Pitch it different and it would cut a super or float beautifully. Those guys did their own adjusting and replacing brakes and frictions was almost non existent. Trust me, there are plenty of reasons why line machines went the way of the dinosaur. Even my hands have a couple of scars.
LOL, Scrub Puller. Real catskinners back in the day got down and hand cranked the manual tilt with joy. :drinkup
Bin there and done that, learnt on a D8/8r with cable bull blade and logging winch and also been on TD25 B with Cat 80 and Cat 463 towed scrapers, biggest drawback is there is no down pressure which is more of a problem on the dozer as sometimes its handy to be able to push down on the blade specially when u are nose first into a soft spot just being able to push down on the blade sometimes makes all the difference to gettig out or staying stuck and needing a tow out. With the scrapers if the cable breaks with the ejector forward which is usually when it happend spring returned the ejector back towing the cable with it then u had to find the end, cut it off clean and re rope it thru all the sheave blocks back to the PCU, much easier if there is two of u to feed it thru, if the rope run a strand then u would end up with a birds nest of rope somewhere in side the scoop which was a pain to get out, thick leather gloves were allways in the tool box as well as a rope cutter,heavy sticky clay was allways hard on the rope trying to push it out, best way was to pull about a metre of rope thru every couple of days so by the time the rope got up to the which it was nearly worn out, if it broke between the scoop& winch it was a fairly easy fix. The main thing was to keep a good eye on the rope and if it looked damaged or signs of excessive wear tow some more thru before it broke, and dont get slack rope and crossovers and tangles on the winch drum. Thank goodness for the bloke who invented Hydraulics. Cheers RDG013
I was trying to get a conversation going and it seems to have died out
Yair . . . caterpillarRy Okay mate I'll stir the pot . . . LOL. Everything said here is absolutely true, there is no doubt hydraulics are more 'user friendly' but really at the end of the day I wouldn't think they are any more effective. On bulk pushing jobs I have seen cable out push hydraulic . . . it depends on the operator. (To me) the biggest advantage of having hydraulics on both ends of a tractor was getting out of bogs and changing rollers . . . operationaly not so much. It really pi$$es me off to see blokes jacking up the front of a tractor in a cut . . . fair enough if you're shaving to get down to grade but otherwise if the blade won't bury when you move forward with the control in 'float' . . . the same circumstances as slack cable . . . the ground needs ripping. I realise a basic hydraulic system as on a dozer these days pretty much are bullet proof but they can fail and with cleanouts and what all can be spendy to fix . . . a good PCU not so much provided parts are available . . . we had a front mounted PCU on an Allis 21 that did over fifteen thousand hours and had never been touched. Generaly speaking the skills an operator who can run cable gear will be way beyond those who have grown up on juice . . . it was an unspoken rule that the care of the cable was up to the operator . . . if he broke it he fixed it, he also greased the sheaves, fed a bit of new string through as needed and so on. Take a gander at those scrapers in "Murls Video" running two bowls with the second pan operated by a PCU hanging off the front of the crankshaft . . . the blokes who operated them must have had an empathy and understanding of the feel and sound of machinery way beyond that which could be found on job-sites today. Cheers.
The old cable blade dozers were a blast to operate,fairly trouble free,and would get the job done. My first dozer was a Allis Chalmers hd16 ac that had a cable blade setup.It had a long list of repairs needed when we bought it like needing undercarrige,added rops cab,engine guards etc.We ended up robbing a good undercarrige out out from under an International TD 20 dozer I had as a parts tractor.After we got it lined out it ended up making a pretty good machine.I also added hydraulic tilt to the blade if you notice in the picture you can see the cylinder on the end of the turnbuckle.Used a 12 volt power pack to supply the hydraulics www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200329762_200329762 We made some money with it then eventually bought a 16B . Cable blade VS. hydraulic ? Hypothetically speaking if I was dropped in the middle of nowhere with only limited tools and resources I would take the cable blade hands down. It's kind of like compairing a muzzel loader to a lever-action rifle.Both will do the job,muzzle-loader takes longer to load but if your good it only takes one shot.
Hm the only things I ever saw break on the rear PCUs on the 7s at my grandfathers house was a spring and a brakeband. My grandfather is one of the few left around that can make an old cable machine do anything a new machine can. He also never really messed with the blade angle much and he used them right up into the 90's on some jobs and they did just as good a job as anything else.
By the way what is a sheave is it the pullies in the front that makes the cable runs through to lift the blade?
Sounds like your grandad was good hand with the cable blade caterpillarRY:thumbsup.I never had much trouble with the winch itself,had to adjust the bands from time to time. Yes the sheave is the pullies on the tractor and blade.
Grades his back yard with one and does a pretty damn good job especially considering he's 70 and his backyard is about as rocky as it comes.
Thats pretty cool caterpillarRY.Your grandad still uses the cable blade d7 and i'm sure he enjoys every bit of it.Heck my dads 68 and he was telling me that 70 is the new 50 Thats good you get to spend time with your grandad and appreciate his skills and knowledge.
Until the 1960's all the Cats around here were cable. The Internationals were hydraulic. The consensus was if you are going to buy a Cat get cable and if you are going to buy an IH, get hydraulic. I did own a 1941 IH Td 14 with a cable blade and it was the pits. Later, at different times, I owned 2 D7 3t's and 3 D6 9U's, all with Cat no. 25 rear cable control units. When I owned these dozers I never wished for hydraulic. I don't consider myself an expert, but all my customers were pleased with my work. I could pile brush with very little dirt in the piles and do pretty good at grading lots. With tilt, getting the blade to take the ground was not an issue. However, I do see some advantages of hydraulic such as jacking up the tractor and helping to get unstuck in wet ground.
If ya like cable blades member dieseldave has a pretty nice looking old cat d9 HeavyEquipmentForums
He was running dozer since he was bout 14 and rebuilding engines since bout the same time he can run almost anything and fix almost anything without a ton of electronics so I'm still hoping to learn as much as I can from him so I can keep the old machines running myself.
okay, here goes.....cable? is that what you pull to start it?
I run both a cable Cat D8H for land clearing and my hydraulic IH TD 20 (manual tilt). Even though I am a young pup at 33, I like the old cable 8 as it is simple and inexpensive to repair, I don't have to worry about trying to keep (??) gallons of expensive hydraulic oil in a 50 year old leaky and worn machine, and a heavy blade with a good cutting edge doesn't have too much of a problem getting a bite. For clearing heavy timber, there are no hoses to worry about and pryout force is more than enough to pull out a good stump and load the tracks down. I have been considering buying a D7E standard with a cable lift. Cheaper than hydraulic and quite a few around.
Well, the string job Wins in my mind in the right location, CAT compaired to other Machinery builders seemed very slow to get to grips with fluid power, they used Hydraulic lines on their early 631's on the steering etc but cable on the bin section even developing the cable saver over-hoist gizmo, the Graders had gears and teeth in control sections that now are hydraulic, but cable to me is the perfect way of powering a towed scraper, the hydraulic pull scrapers are heavy also easier to damage if tipped over with plenty of cost to repair, the feel and control a CCU puts back into your hand is something that no hydraulic lever can deliver,the CCU's are easy to work on and adjust and as for cable getting nasty in your hands and being troublesome, well wearing gloves helps out this task no end I never find it erksome or challenging to work with, the cost thing has to play a part so the fact that 1/2" scraper cable is cheaper now than 10 years ago helps plenty, in the U.K. its often Hissing down with rain making iron rust fast, so if you have a Scraper stood for a few months or years if its cable control the rams dont go rusty, but my love of Cable Control is based on its low cost and its feel and effect from the drivers hand, Steel Hydraulics its the Future stuff all them pipes and things. its just my way tctractors
Well Scrub Puller I tried to help ya with your discussion, didn't work though lol
Say what you will about cable dozers. A cable blade was more responsive in cutting to grade. But in retrospect, that probably wasn't in itself what made or unwound contractors. It was the quality of help available back in the day. People who learned their trade the hard way, and knew there was to be no wasted motion, no doing it twice. Now the machines make it so easy to just keep going and going and going like that bloody battery rabbit. Back and forth, back and forth, just keep it moving and the stupid blokes at the top who don't know the diff will cut eventually you a paycheck.
I'm still wet behind the ears at 24 but I've spend a fair amout of time on/around cable dozers my granddad has had since I was about 12. The first were 2 D7's he used to have and a allis chalmers 11b hes got now. Yea they were old and alot of work to run but not very many people can say they got to run a cable dozer not that it's an big deal just kind of cool i guess. If you like running a dozer enough I suppose you will use whatever is available to you cable/hyd/direct drive/powershift. At the end of the day the results are the same given you know what in the he** you are doing!
I have a 2 D8s 14a and 36a both are cable still use them 14a has a blade and 36a pulls a cable scraper. They work very well. Razz.
Cable dozers and cable pans, OK. One thing I would not want to experience is a "cable-operated track hoe". Saw a couple from a distance once in Houston, They were both down for cable replacements. A hot, greasy mess if you ask me. Of course, no cab AC. Of course, the old geezer who owned them digging on subcontract swore by them. But in the background, a CAT hydraulic hoe was steady slinging dirt, making footage on underground. No sir, I don't no bloody cable operated track hoe.
cable dozers are cool,,, nostalgic,,, and part of our past. 'why part of the past? Because something better came along... Hydraulics!!! If cable was the cats a** they'd still be out there producing them.
Yair . . . Okay grandpa Just because it's newer it isn't necessarily better. If we go O/T and take your thinking a step further you are saying a proper instument cluster of two inch gauges mounted in a panel that screws to the dash with six 3/8" bolts with plenty of slack in the wires has been superseded by the plastic and plexiglass abominations that are foisted on us now . . . you're saying the modern stuff is better? It's getting to the stage where you must have an A/C cab with tinted windows or the bloody control stations fall apart and the instruments become unreadable in a few years. If you apply that kind of thinking then yes, I reckon cable is the cats arse. (he grins) Cheers.
Cable will never come back,,,,, never. Model A's will never come back, steam engine's will never come back. Next you'll tell me cable will out produce hydraulic day in and day out...... Lol.
Cable wasn't that bad if in good condition and the cable unit was in good shape & adjusted correctly. The dozer would go down indefenately if you had enough cable unlike hyd rams that rod out. Now you take a cable unit that got hot and leaked grease into the friction discs or on the brake band and you have some headaches. alot of guys would run the pressure plate to tight and an hour later had grease dripping out of the clutches. Many just did'nt know how to adjust them and created their own problems. Spill a little fuel on the brake band while fueling and the dozer won't stay up, throw dirt on it and finally you can get to work. Lots of problems but they beat a shovel
We've been down this road before. The manufacturers didn't ram hydraulics down our throats, they offered hydraulics alongside cable and people bought - hydraulics. It's like crawler loaders, if no-one buys a six ton model, they don't keep making them. Not like the new technology that we are getting rammed at us without the ton.
Its pretty hard for me to compare the cable dozer to the hydraulic dozer in the same context.They are different machines from different times in history.Only complaint I have about my old cable dozer is it only had the rear winch on it driven through the transmission so if the tractor slowed down or stoped so did the blade controll.You pretty mutch had to stay in rhythm with the machine as it was moving.Now if ya had a cable dozer set up with the front mount direct drive winch and rear winch with all the implements to pull behind it like a disc-harrow,scraper,and ripper that would have been a cool setup back in the day.I kinda miss running the old dozer.We ended up doing some trading with it an ended up with a motorscraper. Hard telling what happend to the old dozer,it may still be running or could have been scrapped out ,sent to china and came back as rebar laying in a concrete slab somewhere
Yair . . . td25c Mate a lot of fellers never realised that if you pulled both steering clutches back the rear PCU went "live". Cheers.
Yair Scrub..That technique also works well when operating a drag winch,leave the tractor in gear & use the steering clutch lever to feather the winch controll. A buddy of mine had a IH td 20 with the front mount direct drive unit,It was pretty fast and responsive.Nice old machine.Probably cycled faster than the hydraulic dozers of that day.
The Cat #25 unit ran off the trans and was as you say, the #29 had a pto shaft off the rear of the engine ( under the floor deck)and was live power
And the next complaint I have is someone saying the old operators were the best and the new one,s aren't. That too is the biggest bunch of BS I've ever heard. Don't underestimate the younger generation. Don't blow your own horn so loud you can't hear the music around you!!! These young fellow's are bigger, faster, smarter and superior in just about everything. And if you don't think so then you probably think a caveman was superior also,,,, good god!!! Records were set to be broke,,, I don't think I can think of a record that will stand for eternity.
We are all different with our own thoughts, I love the cable control units ( CCU's) and the string they tug on, its purely what I am used to I supose, there is a few outfits in the U.K. running wet Bins (towed Scrapers) but I will be happy to stick to the " Good Stuff " now untill I get my 6 bits of wood, I work on hydraulic systems near daily, so the chance to work on something that comes over as the " Dark Side" to the young pilots puts a big smile on my face and a total pleasure to work on, Steel hydraulics are the future i've tasted it.
Settle down there gramps. There has always been excellent operators, average operators and p*** poor ones in every generation. I have seen young ones DEMAND air conditioned cabs, stereo systems and GPS or they won't consider a position with a contractor that does not have it. Oh ya, they want to set the work schedule too. These kinds are nothing more than a machine driver, not an operator. When the GPS don't work or the job is not set up for it they are useless. If the air in the cab or stereo don't work they are gone home till it gets fixed. The young ones might be bigger, they might be able to move faster and in some cases smarter. In an operator bigger does not make better, moving faster does not mean a thing if half the moves are wasted, I have seen a lot of them in a lot of ways that aren't smarter, like they can't shoot grade, can't do simple math without a calculator, can't read a print. I am not saying that all of the young guys are no good gramps but I have seen a lot of them that would never plant their ass on the seat of a machine that belonged to me. By the same token I have seen a lot of middle aged and older guys the same way too.
Yair . . . Well said Greg I think grandpa was a bit upset by a couple of my statements . . . he often is. "Skill" these days is being replaced by technology on the machines. How you view that fact will vary with your circumstance. From the owners point of view an electronic machine with preset shift points that prevent damage and even allow reverse to be selected at full power (as I believe are now available) will provide some piece of mind . . . while the bloody thing is working. Personaly, I'd rather have a simpler machine and be prepared to kick some arse. Imagine what would happen if you took a crew of "operators" off a job today and put them on a similar fleet of 1960's gear? The point I make is that there is still 1960's gear working . . . how much of the modern gear they are on now will be working in fifty years, and who would want it to be working? Cheers
Thats interesting DPete.The #29 with the live power would been a nice option.I wish my old allis would have had live power but I got used to it.My only experience with cable dozers was the HD16 allis that I had and wrenching on my buddys IH td20.I never did get to operate a cat cable dozer.My 16 was a 1956 model and my buddys 20 was a 1959.They were allot of fun,allot of good memories.
Since we are talking units i have a BeGe hydraulic unit that fits on a D6C or D that you can use to pull a hydralic scraper with.It is self contained.Tank,pump valve and everything all togather. Bolts up just like cable unit with the driveshaft running off the shaft on the powershift. It is for sale! Email works if interested. It has a clutch adapter to turn the unit on and off when your not using it.Used it pulling a 14 yard Asland hydraulic scraper around. Any unit on a powershift dozer should be live.
I'm not a fan of any newer machines for the simple reason of my newest 3t (1953 40 or so years older than me) sat for about 20 or 25 before i got it and it could be put on a trailer to a job tomorrow and only have minimal problems from sitting try that with a brand new d7e and tell me how it goes.
Yair. . . caterpillarRy Yes mate (I'm grinning) I've said the same thing on here a time or two myself. Cheers.
Never had to run a cable dozer. Never felt like I missed much, though. I think I'll just stick with the JD750 for now.
I have just about driven every style of Muck shift Iron that is or was common to find on site work within the U.K., I now know that my best ever moment was cabbed up in a D7 47A tractor and scraper (Cable Control) this was realy the first bit of Muck that I had to shift without anyone else involved, it was my job only, running in a mob on cut and fill sites cannot compare to being the Top Dog on your Site (only Dog on this 1) anyhow the brain was put into silent 5th as I worked out the best way to shift the site about and get the best work out of the tractor, the D7 had just been rebuilt to as a new tractor should be, so I also had to keep a good eye on the paint work and gauges, the weather was top draw (for the U.K.) plus the smell of the soil will stay with me even past Peters Gate if I go that way??? the kick on the cable and graunch of the winch plates as the grass clumped soil heaved in then fell out of the 70 scraper like Sugar on a cake, no JD750 or anything would compair to the Nectar I was in at that moment of my life. tctractors cable is the new Hydraulics
My golden moment was on my first 100B when the boss finally stopped yelling instructions and left me to it for the first time. I was top chihuahua. IH100 - hydraulics is the new hydraulics, unless you're R G LeTourneau, in which case electrics is the new cable.
Lord tc you brought tears to my old eyes. But you left out the pain of the fish hooks on the cable and the cussing of retreading the broken cable on a #70 or 80 can and the #29 ccu's were the best. But I enjoyed hydraulics on somethings.
Wow I think I'm the youngest guy to have much respect for the old cable machine here I'm not even out of high school yet but then again I've been helping my grandfather wrench on the old beasts since I could hand him a wrench.
After using a six-way I find it hard to believe anyone would want anything else. Educate me: Fixed blades are strictly for big machines, right? Like pushing big mounds of material. Other than that, I don't get why anyone would want one. Sorry, sort of a newbie at this.
I have respect for them,,, don't get me wrong, but I also respect the oil lantern I carried out to the outhouse in the dead of winter..... but can't say I'd have any use for them now!!! lol Gramps.
It's nice to know that one of these days I will be able to operate a steam powered cable dozer. Never laugh at any technology because someday you might be asked to operate it.
Someone would want something else when the cant afford a machine with a 6 way blade or if the need something to big for a 6 way to be practical also I don't understand the use for it anyway if your a good enough operator you don't need it at all.
I don't care how good you are. No sloppy string controlled blade is going to be able to run a fine grade with the same accuracy and speed that a PAT is capable of. If you are going to push stumps or rough in a site then the string unit might be good enough. If you are grading for a building foundation, a juicer with PAT is the only way to go.
:iagree
My grandfather ran the old cable machines right up until about the early 90's for people on building jobs. All that technology is great but it is of no use to anyone if its broken and you can grade just as well with an old string job it just takes skill to do and you may have to back blade more if dont have enough skill. Now tell me what did people graded with before all that electronic stuff to help them in grading and juicers of any quality. Also an old cable job cost pocket change compared to a brand new d4.
Not that its worth .02, but I'll add mine anyway. I've ran a old Alice Chalmers, and International (Hydro) that where direct drive. After 5-6hrs on one of those, I'm exhausted. Just plain old tired. I will say it beats a shovel. Now I hop on my D3 powershift, not only do I get more done, but after 8+hrs I feel like I haven't been going 9 rounds with Mike Tyson. I'll stick to my stuff, you guys can do as you please.
I don't know, most of used to just push up a bit of a rick, back on to it with one track, and get started that way rather that cranking the darned manual tilt. When I started out the fellow that I worked for had a couple of DW15's, a 17A, and we also used a 19A and DW20's. My arms were the longest so whenever someone new broke the string with the apron up and gate forward it was my job to rethread it. Of course that never happened when the cable was cool, so hot cable poking holes through your gloves and hot grease up to your armpits was the course of action for repair. I treasure those memories, and want to keep them as such, memories! I am glad I had the experience, but don't really want to go back to those days. Pony motors were great for cold weather starts, but I don't know how many times the crank on the 17A kicked back and nearly broke my wrist. Direct electric start is a fine invention in my opinion. I remember braiding the ends of the scrap cable, which we used for a variety of purposes. We never were lacking for a tow cable!
I don't think the pony motors on either of my 3ts has ever kicked back plus the electric start on the pony helps. Starting fluid sure is a time saver.
When the electric starter for the pony motor worked it was no problem, but there was something about the compression of that thing that about every third crank it would kick back. It had the rod up to the hood, and you inserted the crank handlethrough the hood.
Yeah I know where the crank goes haha I got 2 3t d7s which both happen to be cable.
Yeah, always carried a big crescent and 3/4" wrench for clutch adjustments on the units. If I recall correctly there was a roller that needed to align with a little hole on the arm that released the brakes. Occasionally we would take the cover of and adjust the "timing", for lack of the proper term so that the brake would release as the clutches engaged. Also, you wanted to use grease sparingly on the unit so it would not get grabby. If you have 3T's running still you will surely straighten me out if my memory is failing! 3T's had spoked front idlers, yes?
Some did some didn't mine don't though they were the first with the cat blade the 4ts and 6ts all had spoked front idlers they were the late war military jobs