I've been lurking for a while, but this is my first post. I have a question for the smart people here. 1992 Case 1840 with the 4-390 diesel. Owned since 2001 and it's been a great machine. Starts every time....until now(Dec 1st). The machine has always been stored indoors (non-climate controlled) until this May when I needed the garage space. I moved the machine outside to a shady spot last June 1st and haven't moved it since. I recently cleared out a new garage space and wanted to move it back indoors before winter (I'm in MN). I normally start it on low throttle then after it starts I bump the throttle up a bit and let it warm up (maybe 1/4 throttle normally). So I jumped in, started it up, and bumped the throttle up (same as I've done for 10 years). As soon as I bumped the throttle the machine immediately died like it had been turned off - no sputter, no smoke, just died. And now won't start. Motor cranks but no smoke from exhaust. At this point I'm thinking it’s got to be a fuel issue. Here's what I've done so far: Fuel Tank - drained out about two quarts of fuel. Tiny bit of water in it, but nothing major. 6 gallons of fresh fuel added. Fuel should be good. Fuel Supply Line - replaced with new fuel line just to be sure there are no cracks or blockages. I blew air back through the line into the tank and it’s nice and clear. Fuel Primer Pump - seems to work perfectly. When actuating the primer pump lever, I get suction on the input while holding my thumb over the input line. I get fuel out of the bleeders when I pump the manual primer lever. I even removed the pump to actuate the internal cam lever to make sure it was functioning. All seems good. Fuel Filters - replaced both with new filters. Filled both with fresh fuel before re-installing. Fuel Shutoff Solenoid - removed from machine and tested with 12v supply. Solenoid is working perfectly. I have confirmed 12v to solenoid when key is on. I also confirmed 12v to solenoid while key is cranking motor. Solenoid "clicks" on/off when 12v wire is attached and removed. I even went as far as removing the little plunger from the solenoid to make sure it wasn't blocking fuel. Solenoid gets warm to the touch after key has been on for a while. Calling the solenoid good. Bleeder Screws - I've bled the lines repeatedly and I get air-free fuel out of all of them. Just to be sure, I also pressurized the fuel tank with compressed air and get good fuel out of the bleeder screws (filter bleeder and both bleeders on the injection pump). Lucas CAV Fuel Injection Pump – (here’s where I think my problem is) I removed the steel lines that connect the pump to the injectors and no matter what I try I cannot get fuel out of the injector line outlets. LOTS of priming, bleeding, and motor cranking and no fuel ever comes out of the injector pump outlets. Are these pumps prone to failure? Am I missing something totally obvious? Did I possibly knock something loose inside the pump when I bumped the throttle? Sorry for the lengthy post, but I’m stumped on this one. I’m currently between jobs and don’t want to spend a lot of money to bring it in for service. I’m good at mechanical stuff but I'm really hesitant to remove the pump. I don't want to mess with pump timing issues, etc. Thanks in advance.
Welcome to HEF AngryRussell! I must admit when I first saw the long post, I thought "what have we here........" - but you have put down alot of answers to questions that would have needed to be asked. Good Work! You have ticked all the boxes - as to priming proceedure & diagnosing your problem. There is no reason really why it should not start. Seems wierd, but I would be checking to see if the injector pump is actually turning with the engine, remove the plate on the side of the pump & see if it turns while cranking the engine. Then, if it is turning, prime it up again & try a little ether & see if that can jolt it back to life ........ Failing that, it would seem that there is a problem with the pump & it would need to be opened up to be repaired.
alrman, thanks for the reply. Yeah, I hope the long post doesn't scare people away... it's rather wordy. I was thinking the pump might not be turning as well but never thought about peeking through the timing hole to verify. Really good idea. I'll try that tomorrow. I'll get some ether and try to get it turning over too. I've never tried starting a diesel with ether so I'll have to do some reading on it before attempting. I did take some regular starting fluid and gave the engine a tiny misting into the engine intake hole (removed the large rubber intake pipe). Got a bit of smoke out of the exhaust so I know the engine is good. Thanks for the tips! (not so) Angry Russell
Like Alrman said pull off the timing window and see if the pump is rotating. If it is pull one of the valve covers and crank the engine and see if the valves are moving. I have seen a few engines do this before. The are a few bolts inside the timing cover that can come out and when they do they drop into the timing gears and all of them I have seen do this broke the camshaft right behind the gear not allowing the shaft to rotate but the gear will still rotate and drive the injection pump gear. Hope the problem isnt this bad but you have checked all the other normal things.
I removed the inspection cover on my Lucas CAV pump today and verified the pump shaft was indeed turning when cranking the engine. I replaced the inspection cover, and re-bled the fuel system. Still no start but didn't expect it to. I removed the air intake tube coming from the air filter, shot some ether down the intake hole on the engine, and cranked it. It sputtered and smoked until the ether ran out. Repeated a few times with the same results. I still believe the pump is suspect. I messed around with the different parts on the top of the pump and noticed I had a lever that was stuck. I tapped it lightly with my ratchet handle and got it loosened. It now moves freely by hand. Here is a pic of the now unstuck lever: http://tinypic.com/r/302nfvr/6 Question 1 - if this lever was stuck and I bumped the throttle up, is it possible I damaged something in the fuel metering section of my pump? Question 2 - what are the risks of taking the top cover off the pump to have a look? There is very little information out there on these pumps but I'm pretty mechanically savvy. Really appreciate the help. Angry Russell
That front lever is the fuel cutoff lever for use w/ manual engine stop. It should be in the forward position all the time w/ an electric engine stop. It never moves in your application. It is not too bad taking the top cover off, there are just things that like to jump out of place. You will need new gasket and seals. However, I will be shocked if your problem is under the top cover. When you took the inspection cover off, was the pump full of fuel? If not, you probably have a problem at the intake fitting on the pump. Goose, if the cam was broken, he would still get fuel out the injector lines, wouldn't he?
Mitch you could get fuel to the injector lines, but the lift pump runs off of the camshaft and if it is not turning you wont pump fuel to far with just the fuel that is in the injection pump from handpriming.
Ooohhh, yeah, it does doesn't it. I missed that he didn't mention turning the engine w/ the bleed screws open. I would try that next.
Is it possible its not a pump/engine problem and you may be sucking air instead of fuel on the fuel line or filter ? I have had similar problems on other equipment/trucks sucking air, usually a line worn through, cracked or a loose fitting before the pump. Maybe just a bad filter? Hopefully something simple and cheap, good luck.
Time for me to chime in.. Remove the line going into the back of the pump, crank engine and watch line..got fuel? if yes then lift pump is good, if no, lift pump is bad. Next , put finger over the pump fitting where you pulled the line off and crank engine..do you feel suction??..if no, you have a pump problem internally..the lift pump just moves fuel from the tank to the pump, the injection pump then draws it in and bumps it up. IF you have suction then the next step is removing the top cover to check for a stuck Metering Valve.. There are MANY threads on the procedure along w/ part #'s required for repair..
A comment/question, which may apply, or maybe not, but might be useful later for somebody else searching for similar answers... Recent experience(s) with a 60 XT, a later version from Case, revealed the problem to be once with the relays that control the fuel flow solenoid, and another time with the safety feature that shuts off the machine if the operator's butt leaves the seat while it's in use. Is the 1840 similarly equipped, and did you check that stuff?
Thanks pumpguy. When you say "the line going to the back of the pump" I'm thinking you mean the line labeled #3 in the pic below: http://tinypic.com/r/31274m0/6 I will check this later this morning. Angry Russell
Mitch, thanks for the info. I'll ignore the front lever. And here I thought I was on to something Yes, the pump had fuel in it when I removed the inspection cover so that was promising.
If I remember right, those older pumps had a plastic drive plate in them and and they would harden and crack if you used alcohol in the system. Could be wrong but something to check
AR, thats correct..#3 Miro, your thinking of a "Roosa Master/Stanadyne" pump
pumpguy, I checked what you suggested and here are the results. Removed the back line (#3 as listed in my picture http://tinypic.com/r/31274m0/6 ) and I get good fuel out of it while cranking the engine. Lift pump is good. I'm not getting suction on the pump inlet. When I removed the line there was fuel filling the inlet hole. After cranking the engine, the fuel remained unchanged. Here's a pic of what I'm seeing: http://tinypic.com/r/2qvrwhu/6 I would think if the pump was working there would be no fuel in the inlet hole after cranking the engine. Agree? I'm still thinking my issue is pump related because the engine started and was running until the second I bumped up the throttle. And I have this uneasy feeling there's a pump removal in my near future A really appreciate your help. Angry Russell
OK..3 SENERIOS.. Either the shut-off solenoid is bad, not allowing the fuel to enter the pump[I know you checked, it's good]..THEN theres the 'LOW OIL/hi temp' SENERIO..Just "straight wire" the pump solenoid to the battery for 12volts and see what happens then..and unplug ALL the wires going TO the pump soleniod..SEEN MANY "MURPHY SWITCHES" go bad.. BUT BEFORE I ruled out the WORST CASE I would pull the TOP COVER on the IP to make sure the MV isnt stuck.. AND the LAST BUT THE VERY WORST is the head and rotor in the pump locked-up.. Hope it isnt the last one.. TPG
I didn't get a chance to look at this yet as it's been snowing and cold. And tomorrow is supposed to be cold AND windy.... Ugh. I'll try to get to it once the sun is out and it's a bit warmer. I've already got my solenoid-to-battery test wire crimped and ready to go. Angry Russell
Keep us posted.. BTW its 77* here..in shorts and a t-shirt hanging Christmas lites all day.. Stay warm..
Come on PumpGuy you know we are ready for atleast some kind of winter, as last year we were wearing shorts all year :drinkup
Ain't no way, NCPipeline!! I like 70s in winter. If the temp never, ever got below 65, I'd be happy.
The snow and wind he is talking about is almost here. You guys should come up here for a spell. Won't be long, I will have to start plugging stuff in if I want to run it. And throwing a bunch of wood in the boiler.
I lived in Denver for 10 years. This weather here is nice, but man sometimes I wish it would just dump some SNOW
Hey gang, I finally had a chance to look at the fuel situation. It's actually fairly nice today - 30 degrees and partly cloudy. My fuel soaked fingers didn't get numb quite as fast today. But still no fun working outside in the snow. Please allow me to vent a little - I want to give a huge "middle finger" to the person who designed the CAV pump with the fuel shutoff solenoid on the bottom of the frickin pump. And not only the bottom, but the bottom and INSIDE next to the engine block where it's nearly impossible to reach (not to mention get a 15/16" wrench on it). Soooooo frustrating getting it in and out. Much swearing has been done the last couple weeks.... Ok, I feel better. So here's where I'm at: With the fuel inlet pipe removed I could still see fuel in the inlet hole: I attached my test wire from the solenoid directly to the battery and could hear it clicking so I'm pretty sure it's good. Cranked the motor and no suction nor does fuel go into the pump. I removed the shutoff solenoid again (see middle finger reference above) and noticed the fuel sitting in the pump inlet drained out so I know the inlet isn't plugged (at least to up to the solenoid). Just for fun, I removed the solenoid plunger and spring, and reinstalled the empty solenoid back in the pump. I refilled the fuel inlet, cranked the motor, and no change. Fuel remained in the inlet. I got a piece of plastic tubing that fit tightly into the inlet hole and blew air into it via my mouth (no air compressor). Fuel very slowly disappeared. Not sure where it went, but I re-filled the fuel inlet with fuel a couple times. Still no fuel out of the injector outlet lines. Feeling adventurous, I removed the top of the pump to have a look-see for stuck parts. Fuel ran out all over the place but luckily I didn't lose any of the springy stuff inside the cover. Carefully removed the top cover, cleaned everything really well, moved the levers and various parts that I could and nothing seemed out of place. I put the top back on (which was not easy with the pump in the machine) and re-bled the system. No change. At this point I'm done messing around with this thing. I have a bad feeling it's the pump internals and seeing as I don't have a nice shop to work in I'm going to have to bring it in. Ugh! Any final suggestions before I call the dealer? I appreciate your time reading my lengthy posts. Angry Russell
When you had the TC off did you see the "hook end" of the governor arm? that hook goes around the "Metering Valve"..thats what allows fuel to enter the pumping chamber.. MAKE SURE ITS FREE[moves left and right]..Other than that "bend over and kiss your wallet goodbye" if your taking it to the dealer. I could walk you thru removal if you like.
Yep, the hook end was attached and everything moved freely. Here are some pics: I'm a little concerned about the light rust on the pump components in first pic, but everything else looked to be in order. I noticed there appears to be gasket sealant on the cover. Is that normal? The cover looks to not have been previously removed but I'm not 100% sure since I bought the machine used. Although I'm a little hesitant, I could be persuaded to remove the pump with your direction. My hesitation is dealing with the pump timing when re-installing... And the fact it's winter in MN and the machine is outside. Angry Russell
Thing that bothers me the most it, while cranking the fuel in the inlet isnt going anywhere!! Signs of a "locked-up" head and rotor.$$$ Yes there is a "top cover gasket" It looks like from your pic. that the MV is in the "shut-off" position. IF you take your finger and push on the gov. arm[ 3 hole dealy wacker ] does the MV MOVE?? IF NOT your metering valve is stuck in the SHUT OFF position. DONT HELP IT!! IF IT DOESNT MOVE.. thats your prob...just work it back and forth till it moves free. You CAN start it with the TC OFF[if thats your problem] BUT you need someone to crank the engine while YOU HOLD the GOV. TO Wide Open[towards the inlet] Leave the lines loose AT THE INJECTORS and watch for the fuel to come out..
Yes, unfortunately for me, the metering valve and gov arm both move freely. No sticking of any kind.... I've got a sick feeling my pump is "locked-up" as you say. The strange part is the machine started and ran perfectly for a few seconds before I bumped the throttle up then it died. And it died immediately like it had been turned off. No sputtering, coughing, or smoking...Just off... Tomorrow is supposed to be 30 degrees so I might have a stab at taking the pump top cover off one more time. I can have my dad come over and crank the motor while I hold the metering valve open. Dumb question - is it possible to take just the front (i.e. "head") of the pump off and have a look? Or is it all removed from the opposite end? Or, is there possibly a means of getting cleaning fluid sprayed back through the pump injector outlets or pump fuel inlet and let it soak? Not knowing how the internals of a diesel pump work or what causes a pump to lock up, I'm pretty sure the correct answer is no, but thought I'd toss it out there. Angry Russell
Unfortunatly there is no amount of "spray" that will fix a seized H&R. Sorry about the late response..been REAL BUSY! IF it was "running" and just shut-off, chances are good for a H&R seizure. Your going to need a 3 bolt puller to get the pump off. 2 bolts screw into the gear and a center one pushes the pump shaft from the gear. Timing isnt "that big" of a deal with "alittle" info. IF you want to take the equipment to the dealer to get them to pull the pump..DONT let them sell you a pump before you send it to me! THEN AGAIN, alot of pump shops do inhouse work. They'll pull the pump, rebuild it and reinstall it..change the filters and pull & check the injectors and you wont have to pay the "mark-up" from the dealer.
This is turning out to be all good info, I dont have a Case but still good read.
Fuel injection is kinda like brain surgery..as long as you have a book OR [and I mean "or"** someone looking over your shoulder[wink, wink] its NO PROBLEM.. Merry Christmas everyone..TPG
I have found that with enough patience and critical thinking most things are serviceable. :drinkup
Yes, I totally agree.... But it should read "with enough patience, critical thinking, and a warm shop most things are serviceable" hehehehe. Update: I took the top cover off my pump again yesterday. I held the governor arm/meter valve in the wide open position and cranked the engine and no fuel came out. I must've been a naughty boy this year and this is my version of getting coal for Christmas I feel I've exhausted my current options as I don't want to work outside in the MN winter any longer. My old fingers get numb quickly. I'm going to bring it to a local dealer right after the new year and get the pump rebuilt. I'm also going to get the hydraulic control unit re-o-ringed as it slowly leaks and makes a mess in the bottom of the machine. Note to self: take better care of your equipment! I'm usually really good about my maintaining my vehicles but I was lazy with the 1840 and it sat outside all summer. Shame on me! :Banghead Angry Russell
My 1840 just dies with the same symptoms. My problem is it died in a place where I have to move it to get readily access to it. My question is, how can I move this thing?? It don't imagine it will easily drag onto its trailer (bucket is down and I'm sure wheels wont turn freely). Is a ramp truck the only option or can the drive system get disengaged from the hydraulics ?
When I had mine sent in for service, they came with a flatbed truck. I opened the bypass valves (under the seat) to let the machine roll rather than be dragged onto the truck. IMPORTANT NOTE - when they service the 1840 be sure to tell them the bypass valves are open! The shop that serviced mine didn't realize this and did a bunch of extra work because they thought there was air in the lines. :-( If I remember correctly, I used a large allen wrench to open the valves. There are two of them under the seat. If you need additional information I can try to get it (pictures, scan of manual page, etc...) Angry Russell
Thanks for the info!! I'll look under the seat for the bypass valves but not having a service manual pics would be a great help! Looking at your previous pics I see something a bit different on my loader. Under the fuel filter (the only one I can find) there appears to be a fuel pump (rubber line coming from tank and metal line going .. I forget where). Anyway, at the bottom of the pump there is a lever. Is it possible this lever is a fuel shutoff?? I ask because very recently I was clearing brush, etc, where lots of branches, sticks, etc, made there way inside the engine compartment. I'm wondering if something moved this lever.
Fixed! After preparing myself for a long knuckle busting weekend, I decided to pull the radiator so I could have some light filter in near the fuel pump area. Anyway, I'll spare you diagnostic process, but all it was was a 15A fuse under the seat. That might sound like an easy diagnosis, but not so much w/o any docs/wiring diagrams. Thanks AngryRussell for the reply. I'd still like to know where the bypass valves are if you did take a pic.
Great! glad it was an easy (and cheap) fix! I'll take a pic tomorrow of the bypass valves and post them. Angry Russell
^^^ Perfect! I took pics today but above is spot on. Angry Russell
Got the same problem as angry. Mine started losing revs. Then at full throttle it would only idle, then stopped all together. Have fuel up to the first bleeder after the filter, but nothing after that. Did you get yours fixed angry ?
Bugger, yeah I got mine fixed to the tune of a new fuel pump. Since it was Jan in Minnesota I didn't feel like working on it outside in below zero temps so I had an equipment shop come and get it and they replaced the fuel pump. They said the shaft that drives the pump head was rusted and broke???? I was skeptical as I could see the pump shaft turning inside the inspection plate while it cranked over....I never saw the old one as they had sent it off to be rebuilt. Had it been summertime I would've removed the pump myself worked with Pumpguysc (above) and saved myself a bunch of cash.... One thing I don't like now with the new pump is it seems difficult to start when cold. Before, I could turn the key, crank it maybe 2-3 seconds and it would fire right up. Now I need to hold the key while it cranks, sputters, cranks, sputter sputter sputter start.... It's more like 10-15 seconds now and lots of white smoke while cranking. Maybe it's the fuel that's in there? Not really sure. Angry Russell
The pump shafts can and will break. They have a groove machined in the shaft that acts like a fuse...if something seizes the shaft will break and not hurt the head and rotor as much. I had an old case forklift I did the governor drive on and it was setup the same way. NCPIPELINE, I may have to steal your quote :drinkup
^^ Good to know, thanks for the info about the groove in the shaft. I was about 85% sure they knew what they were talking about but still had that 15% where I was thinking "they're taking me for a ride". Glad it's fixed though! Angry Russell
What did the new pump cost angry ? Hang on, I!ll sit down !!
Well I tried everything today. The wire to the switch. All good. The inspection plate, shaft turned. Took the top plate off, everything moving, nothing seized. Took the little fuel pipe off. Turned the motor over. Heaps of fuel to the pump. But fuel not being sucked into pump. Looking like pump has to come out.......
Pump buggered completely. Needs lots of $$$$$$$$ thrown at it.............
The pump guy ^ I need to re time this same engine 4 390. Someone else removed pump. I need to start from scratch. Thanks a bunch
Sorry for the late response.. I was caught in the storm that came thru the Carolinas.!!! Unless someone took the gear out... the pump is keyed, yes?? Put on a new gasket and line up the key way in the gear and pump shaft and line up the lines on the pump flange and block and tighten it down.. EASY as that.. BUT if the gear was taken out.. THEN it gets alittle more involved.. Still do-able tho.. just more typing.. and I need the pump #'s..
This was some great information on this subject. I am a mechanic for a John Deere dealer, and unfortunately am in the same position. This 1840 case came to our dealership with leaks, and needing service. I had to replace the fuel shut off solenoid, ( because it leaked) and machine has not run since doing so. When I crank the machine, I only have 8 volts to solenoid. I am not buying into the pump going bad here. Not coincidentally at the exact time I replaced the solenoid. And for information purposes, the wiring on this machine has been spliced and open wires twisted together. I have no wiring diagram, but will repost what I find.
Ryan> just run a jumper wire from the hot side + of the battery and clip it on the solenoid.. that will eliminate any voltage drop.. then bleed the air out at the double screw by the name plate.. loosen the 5/16" screw.. then loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS and spin it till fuel comes out.. tighten the lines and off you go.. Once it starts.. remove the jumper wire and see what happens.. if it dies.. you have a voltage problem.. not a pump problem..
:iagree Once you eliminate one possible problem you often find what the real problem is/was. Another idea might be to bypass the fuel tank by trying to run off a gallon jug of fuel, and if you have a spare electric fuel pump you could by pass the lift pump on the engine. But start with the easy stuff like thepumpguy says!
One important step in troubleshooting this particular injection pump, you can remove the fuel shutoff valve, therefore eliminating it as the source of the problem, if it does make fuel / starts running, you can still shut it off via the manual lever on the side of the pump.
apetad> ONLY IF the guts on the solenoid are removable.. the newer ones are not.. but yes, you are correct.. just remove the spring and plunger and screw back in.. I keep an older style sol. in my "go box" when diagnosing.. just to eliminate any electrical problems..
I have an 1845C ('98) vintage that has the California Emisions package. The seat timer solenoid is different and no longer in the parts books, but is available and stocked if you have the number. It used to be "the Yellow One" when I workd at a Case dealer in 2000, and was in the 1845Cs and one of the trenchers. I'm currently having problems blowing the ignition safety fuse. It will run fine for a few days and then die. I swap the fuse and it runs fine. Hard to determine what is causing the short. I haven't pulled out the diagram yet to chase it. It gets used on job sites, so I don't want to just bypass it.