I have a 1992 Case 1845C that is getting to be one miserable possessed machine when it comes to starting it. In the last 2 years I have installed a rebuilt starter, then a new starter. I have also installed all new cables and wiring connected to the starting system, along with a new ignition switch, and the largest battery I could get. Sometimes after working on it such as installing a new starting system part, it will start like a champ a couple of times, then revert back to it's old click, click, click habit when you turn the key. Other times it will not make any difference. I have heard of a place that sells basically new battery cables and a what appears to be an older style Ford solenoid for about $80.00 or $90.00. I really do not want to pay that much for something that a person could buy at an auto parts store for probably $35.00 tops. I guess this is a known problem for the Case 1800 series skid loaders, and what the problem boils down to is too much resistance in the wiring circuit (which I would think all new cables and wires would cure). Can anyone tell me what size of cables and wires , and a part number for an older 3 post Ford solenoid that I would need to fix this thing. I would also appreciate step by step instructions on how to add this solenoid to the starting system, and details explaining what wires or cables I would need to splice into (basically what gets connected to what). I have already spent too much money on starters I did not need, and really do not want to spend $90.00 just to find out how to install the modification kit. Any information would be greatly appreciated......................thanks.
Sounds like you may have a ground problem. You have rebuilt the supply side of the system. Suggestion: Make sure the engine is grounded properly to the frame ground (same ground as battery negative). Easy to do. Connect a set of battery jumper cables from the engine (or starter housing) to the ground terminal coming off the battery. Also is the starter properly grounded? Ground connections are just as important as positive side connections. I have an 1845C and it hasn't missed a beat as long as I can remember. Click Click Click means that either you don't have enough capacity (high resistence) at the starter or the ground side does not have a good path back to battery (high resistence). Both very important. Starter relays also burn internally over time which can create high resistance inside the relay therefore not allowing enough current through relay to spin a high current motor ( like the starter-250 to 300 amp approx). Hope this helps.
If you do decide to install a starter relay solenoid, it's very simple. Mount the relay as close to starter as you can. Connect a 12 ga wire to the battery post of the starter, connect other end of wire to one of the large terminals of the solenoid. Connect another 12 ga wire to opposite large terminal of solenoid and connect that wire to the starter switch terminal on the starter. Take your starter switch wire and connect it to the small terminal of the solenoid. That should fix you up.
Z2898, Thank you for the information. I did replace all of the old wire and cables, and pretty much ended up with the old click, click problem, After reading your comment about a possible bad ground, I removed all of the ground wires and made sure I had a good clean contact area, put a very thin film of dielectric grease on them, and fastened them back up...........same problem. I then thought that maybe a person can never have too much ground, and installed an extra ground cable (#4 AWG) to one of the bolts that fastens the starter to the engine block, and used a couple of star washers to make sure it had a good bite.........same old problem. The starter works as it should when I had a starter and alternator guy bench test it. He say's more than likely I am having an issue with the key switch (which is new) not allowing enough voltage to the solenoid. I told him it is a new switch, and the old one did the same thing. I then told him about the modification information ATCOEQUIP sent me. He said in theory it sounds like it should work by taking a load off of something (can't remember what he called it), and making it more direct. He did say however that he wonders if the information I was given did not contain an error because 12 gauge wire seems to be way to small to be carrying the load that the starter will draw. I told him I am not an electrician, so I do not have a clue. He said #6 is the smallest he would wire it with, and better yet #4. Well, I am going to try it exactly the way ATCOEQUIP told me to do it and see how it goes..............thanks again.
Just one more thought on the ground side of the system. You say everything is grounded properly from the starter to the block. How about block to frame? Remember that the battery is grounded to frame. Take a battery jumper cable from engine to frame and see if this makes a difference. I hate to see people chase and throw parts at a problem when a simple bad ground is the issue. Also 12 gauge wire on relays from key switches is big enough to operate. The 12 gauge is simply a signal wire form keyswitch. Battery cables and starter cables should be heavy like welding cables and #4 and lower are sufficient for your system. A relay simply connects the heavy cables from the battery to the high amperage motor. A relay is operated by light gauge wire from keyswitch (12 ga for example) Hope this helps.
Hi Scavenger, Just to clarify, the relay I said you could install is not to power starter motor, it's to activate soleniod on starter. The starter solenoid is what sends power to the starter motor. I'm referring to that small wire that goes to the starter solenoid from the ignition switch. When you activate "start" at the ignition switch, it sends current on that wire to activate starter solenoid. If you have any little problem in your wiring harness, you could experience a voltage drop by the time the current gets from ignition switch to starter solenoid, not have enough voltage to activate solenoid, click click. Using a relay near starter will rememdy this problem, as relays don't require the amps to activate them that the starter solenoid does. The 12 ga wire is the current that will go through relay when you activate it with the start wire, plenty heavy enough gauge wire to activate starter solenoid.
If you have a look back 2 or 3 pages someone was selling a kit to sort thisi problem out.
I have a neutral switch out of adjustment on my skid, and sometimes the key will just make the click, click you are referring to, but a slight pull on my right drive lever will get it to turn over every time. Just a thought. Wouldn't think that you would even get a click with a safety switch not working, but it does. Might be worth a try moving each drive lever a little in each direction with the key in the start position.
Have you got to the bottom of this problem?have you installed the second soleniod and does it work? My machine has decided to have this problem and its got worse since I put on a new battery!! Is this a well known fault with this machine?
Lost In France, There have been a lot of things happening lately, so I have not had a chance to try using the solenoid as a relay. I did have one mechanic at a local construction company tell me that they exclusively use the older model 1800 series Case skid loaders because their operators prefer them over the newer models. He said that whenever the skid steers have a problem starting, himself or another mechanic will go through the complete starting circuit / system removing and cleaning / replacing cables, and almost always install a new solenoid plunger and contact kit. He says this normally takes care of any starter problems. He also stated that during the winter months they will set up a couple of there 1845C loaders with snow plows. He says the ones they use in the winter will have less starting issues than the ones that sit over the winter. When I find time to do the modification I will be sure to let you know. You might want to send me a private email with your email address so I can keep the message as unread. This will remind me to let you know what I find out.
solenoid plunger and contact kit whats involved in changing this? Starter motor off .Once off would this be a diy job for someone whos never had a starter to bits before?
Lost in France, I have not installed a solenoid kit yet, but I do have a diagram that shows the parts and locations. I think it is a pretty simple repair requiring basically general hand tools. It looks like the best way to do this would be to remove the starter from the engine. First you are going to have to decide if you want to try it without raising the loader arms and locking them using the supplied support arm, then slide the ROPS forward. This will give you better access to the starter. Then disconnect the battery cables from the battery. Next I would disconnect and label the wires and cables from the starter, then unbolt and remove the starter. The solenoid repair kit contains a new solenoid plunger, new contacts, and I think gaskets. You need to remove 3 screws to remove the solenoid cover, then you have access to everything you need to remove and replace. The mechanic stated that normally the solenoid plunger does not really need to be replaced, but they do it anyways as long as they already have access to it. Other then removing and cleaning all the battery cables / connections and making sure the other wire connections are clean and snugged up, this should take care of starter problems. We are on maximum overtime at work, so I am finding it hard to get anything done around my shop at home. When I do get to it I will try to remember to take some pictures and send them to you. Because I am fairly new to this forum, I do not know if they allow a person to attach pictures, so it would be best if you send me your private email address, and I will send the pictures and any new information I discover right to you. I see where you stated that your problem became worse after you installed a new battery. Was the new battery fully charged, and did you make sure all the connections were clean and tight?
never thought of checking the charge(will put it on the charger today) but I took off all the connections and wire brushed and filed to bare metal after reading some of the earlier posts,that seems to be the most annoying part!!!
Yes, Scavenger, you can post pics. They can be very helpful. Check out this thread about how to attach a pic to a post.
Hi Scavenger, it just so happened I worked on a similar problem machine today, a Yanmar B27 mini excavator. Sometimes the starter would work, other time, the eternal click click click. I've already had the starter gone through by the starter shop, so I know the starter isn't the problem. A customer purchased the machine, I went to bring it in the shop to service it and "click". Grrr :Banghead. Popped the access panel off from behind the seat, connected my remote starter button to the starter and it worked perfect. More than likely a voltage drop on the starting wire circuit from the keyswitch, probably the same problem you are having. Now, I could spend a couple of hours trying to determine what gremlin is causing the voltage drop while egaging start on the keyswitch. Or, I could easily remedy the problem by installing a typical starter relay solenoid near the starter. The relay requires much less amperage to engage than does the solenoid on the starter. You could easily activate one of these solenoid relays with as small as 18 ga wire. I simply connected 12 ga wire to battery terminal on the starter and connected that wire to one of the large terimnals on the relay. Another 12 ga wire goes from the opposite large terminal on the relay to the solenoid activating terminal on the starter. The original starter wire connects to the small activating terminal on the relay. Simple, easy, quick to do, and works like a charm.
Atco is this the type of fix you have done before or did the thread prompt you to give it a go?Just a curious question
Same issue with my 1845c after sitting through the winter months. By passed the relay to starter, turned over.. Cleaned all conections, Loose ground was the answer...
Atcoequip Nice picture and write up.... Saving it for future use.. Mater of time before Gremlines come back, this must be a common problem..
I have done this on a number of problem machines over the years LiF, and had them continue working with no other issues. It just doesn't take much amperage to work these type of solenoids as opposed to the starter engage solenoid on the starter. I've even used the same method to remedy low voltage on ignition coils of gas engines when cranking the engine to start. The starter takes so much engery away from the electrical system, by the time voltage gets to ignition coil while cranking, the voltage is too low to give a good spark. Rig up a cube relay the activates when cranking starter, sends battery voltage directly to ignition coil, engine fires right off. Done this many times on older International trucks with gas engines. They seemed to have had an electrical system that was problematic. Now, I admit, this does not repair the problem in the machines electrical system that is causing the problem in the first place. Could just need a new ignition switch, could be a bad connection at a Deutsch plug connection or something like that. My only point is that you could possibly spend a considerable amount of time finding the fault in the system. In many cases, this is a quick easy install that works like a charm and is not affected by problem switches and connections that haunt a starter solenoid.
I respect your solutions but: If machine operated properly from new with existing system why does it develope issues down the road? If machine sits over the winter why does the issue show up first thing in the spring? In my opinion what you are all dealing with is a bad ground issue. When a machine sits rust will build and create high resistance in connections. I'm sure that if you check and clean all connections the problem will dissapear, but again, I could be wrong.
No worries Z2898, remember, we are troubleshooting from a distance. I'm just offering a possible solution for his troubles, don't proport that it's the proper fix to the machines components. We can only work with scavengers comments at best. In post #4 he said he re-did all the grounds adding dielectric grease and added an additional ground cable to starter. Possibly with all the suggestions offered, something will place him on the path to resolving his troubles.
Atco, Nothing but respect intended. I respect everyone's suggestions and yes at the end of the day we are all just trying to help. That's not a bad thing. Good day to you sir! Z
This is what I've been looking for. So the main purpose of this relay between the ignition switch and the starter solenoid connector is to just direct a larger amount of current to the starter solenoid that could of been lost through the original ignition switch wire from the switch to the solenoid terminal? Since it does takes very little power to activate a relay, even if the volts from the relay input wire is a bit low. Because on my dads machine (1845b) hes been having the click click problem as stated above. He said it all started happening AFTER the mechanic has installed the relay. When I was looking at it I didn't think it made a difference as being a car mechanic relays are used for using a small current to control a larger one. But in this setup the same amount volts is being used at both ends, it just seemed pointless in a way until I came across this thread, but it does make sense now. The mechanic told me dad he suggests installing one so it " doesn't kill the starter" but that still doesn't make much sense to me. I think I found the problem being a lose battery cable that connects to the battery terminal but was just curious of this relay setup that I found the answer to. Thanks a lot. But I do have some more questions. Is there any other switches that have to be closed to direct current to the starter, something similar to a clutch safety switch(car reference)? Where can I find a wiring diagrams for this machine? Although I didn't really look much at it, how would you remove the fuel sending unit from the tank so I can check the resistance on the sending unit arm and see if its working properly, and replace it if its out of specs. The gauges works(when wire grounded its E, wire open its F), but its reading a little past F and my dad said its not right. Heres a link to the relay setup below just for clarification. http://i51.tinypic.com/i2v7o7.jpg Thanks again.
Yes Ant1845b, I perform this remedy on start wire circuits that are problematic within the wiring having excessive voltage drop on the start wire. But keep in mind, I don't do this necessarily as a "fix" for problem wiring as much as I do it for a customers benefit. When a person is paying you X number of dollars per hour to perfom a repair, this gives them a choice of A) you may have to pay me for several hours work to go through your wiring system searching for the wiring gremlin, or B) pay me for this simple, inexpensive, solution that just may last many more years of service. And I've yet to have one come back to me. But anytime you have cranking problems, whether it's automotive or machinery, the same systematic method of troubleshooting should be followed. Condition of battery (preferrably with load test), battery terminal connections, condition of cables, all termination connections including grounds. Keep in mind, just because you find a termination connected, fasteners are good and tight, corrosion can still develop between terminal, fastener, and termination and cause a problem. Once you have determined battery and all cable connections are in good order, and you still get click click, then it's time to take a look at voltage drop at start wire. Simple test, disconnect start wire from termination at starter solenoid. Connect a volt meter to start wire, hit start button. Start wire should have 12V +/-. Reconnect start wire to starter terminal, connect volt meter to start terminal as well, hit start button. If voltage drops to somewhere around 7 to 9 volts, likely you have problem with start wire and relay may remedy your problem, but it could be a failing solenoid coil as well pulling excessive amps. Take a small gauge jumper wire, 14 or 16 gauge, and jump from start terminal to battery positive connection at starter, if you get a good arc and still some hesitation from solenoid, likely solenoid is going south. But if it cranks solid without any coaxing, fit a relay on the start wire circuit. As for wiring diagram, you're Case dealer should be able to provide that for you. And the fuel sending unit, I typically disconnect sensing wire from sending unit and see what position gauge is in whether it reads F or E. Then ground the sensing wire as see if gauge goes opposite direction. If it does, it's typically a bad sending unit.
Willie, I just borrowed a Case 1845B skidsteer from a friend, he bought it new I know its been sitting for the last two years and hardly used in the previous 5-6 years. He used it right much when he first got it. it has 2200 hours on it I had to install a new starter switch and battery and it fired off the first time. The only issue I have with the machine is, it has a loud squealing noise when you start to move it. It could be doing it before then, but its hard to figure out. Its the sound that low/no hyds. make but its full. Seems to have good power, but the noise is not good what year do think this machine is? Im guessing one of the first 1800 series, it doesnt have any safety devices. I have a 1840 and it has the levers on both sides, to keep you in the seat Here is what really amazing, he has a backhoe attachment that attaches where the bucket attaches, the hyd hoses goes to couplings on back of the machine. This is not one of those lightweight backhoes, its about the size of a JD 300 machine. I plan on borrowing that also, being he doesnt have a place to store it anymore and I will take pictures. Just wondered about how old the machine is and any ideas on the noise
I know you asked for Willie - here's my thoughts Guess age at around 1980, give or take a year or 2. Noise possibilities - Pumps on those early 1845's are different to 1840 / 1845C's. They were a bit noisey to drive - it may be normal? They had planetary reductions between drive motors & chain case , make sure they have oil in them. Grease up the cluster shafts - in between the wheels.
I have to yield to alrman, he knows way more about these machines than I do.
Thanks, Ill check the oil in the gears I just didnt want to mess his machine up and I didnt know about the oil in the planerarys Thanks again
Hello, all: I'm having a similar problem to this one, only it was that the starter would grind with the flywheel and start with a little hesitation. I installed an extra solenoid/relay and now, I can't get the darn thing to shut off once I crank it! I have to remove the positive battery cable to get it to shut off. Anybody have any idea what's going on with that? Thanks! ~JV
I have been following this thread with interest, I worked my life with Case and have installed many many of the aux relay kits to the various units using the Nippon starters. We had access through Case a Cab relay modification kit consisting of a tab mount relay and a harness ideally suited for the engine starter mod as used on the Case CDC engines. I believe the Bosch style relay is far superior to a "Ford" style relay as the coil resistance uses very little current draw to engage. The Cab haness relay was used on 90 series ag tractors to replace a "Ford" style relay which gave problems in the same area. It is listed as a mod in the parts book. As another posted, we in the field are after results and whether or not you feel it is necessary it is a easy fix to a complex problem. I believe the wiring is marginal at best between the ignition start switch and the solenoid contained in the starter. It is not a stop gap measure it just easily corrects a voltage drop problem in the primary solenoid circuit. With the Bosch style relay only Milliamps are required to operate the contact relay and then the start solenoid is fed by 10 ga. wire. I believe the automotive style relays draw significantly more current than the Bosch syyle and could be prone to the same issue. The above mentioned haness uses a pair of 10s from the main starter terminal to the relay and another to the kick in tab on the starter and a 16 to energize the relay and a 16 to ground to ground the coil of the relay. In our area, overnite temps would fall far enough for the voltage drop that made the Nippon solenoid unleliable as fed from the normal key switch function but once running would work all day without incident. At the end of the day for a field mechanic solving the problem is the issue and the Bosch relay more than did that.
1998 Case 1845c Had the start issue as has been documented in several forums on the internet. I was going to go the starter solenoid relay route, but I couldn't pull the trigger without doing a wiring check. I looked in the usual, most obvious places first. The issue was behind the control panel up on the top right. There is a flaw in the wire routing from the factory - at least on my machine. Up behind the control panel where the wire comes out of the loom, the stretch between loom end and key switch connection, the wiring routes past the steel frame pillar - it is a very taught stretch. My pillar was pretty sharp and over time (26 years) wore the insulation down due to friction. Wore it down, but no wires were exposed. My fuel pump fuel shutoff solenoid was on the fritz too. So, this would be a red (start), orange (solenoid) wire to hunt for. Both just didn't have enough slack to remain free of chaffing. So, repaired the wires, ground the sharp edge, covered with some split rubber hose, and messed with the routing on the rear to give the run about an extra inch of wire so it wasn't so dang tight. Buttoned it all back up - worked as it has for years and should. I don't usually post this kind of stuff, but hopefully it helps the next guy.
I have an 1840 with the same issue. Doing this is on my “to do” list for next spring. This video walks through the fix.
All four 1845C that we had in the fleet had issues with corrosion in the 3 harness connectors and fuse holders that allow cab to be slid forward. I lopped all the multi bullet connectors off and used deutsch plugs and weatherpack fuse holders. There was enough corrosion to make cranking intermittent.
Nippondenso starters seem to be the most problematic either for clicking or the solenoid contacts getting burnt. Burnt solenoid contacts may be the result of not having a relay?? Putting a relay on the starting circuit on my Kubota powered skid steer while doing the glow plugs. The common relays are aftermarket for JD AM107421. Also called a hard start kit. Cost about $25cad. and up. You could get an original JD if you had money burning a hole in your pocket, $191!! Very common problem on Kubota tractors too.
I have the exact same year machine as you and mine did the same thing. I think it was [B]willie59[/B] that put a great post up years ago about how to fix this problem and I followed those instructions on my machine. It was a very simple solution and has worked great ever since. Unfortunately, I am not sure how to find that post again for you. Hopefully someone else on could find it and put it in this thread and then you will be set.