I recently bought a 1976 Case 450 dozer, got it home and it ran about 1/2 hour and now the motor dies frequently. i can restart it right away, but dies again if i move throttle to much. if i manage to rev it up all the way and let off real fast the motor dies. i have changed fuel filters, check sediment bowl and cleaned fuel screen in back of fuel pump. and changed to new air filter also. i need some help, i have reached the end of my diesel knowledge. didn't take long to get there. any help or ideas would be appreciated.
We had a similar problem on a jd tractor a few years ago. The dealer kept insisting that there was a blockage in the fuel line or the tank. We kept blowing the line back and went so far as to drill a hole in the fuel tank itself to get better look inside. It was perfect so I called a different dealer and he told me the problem was in the hand pump or primer pump. It was we changed it and it's been running ever since. If your tractor has one I'd sure check it before going into the fuel pump. Also on the older tractors if you don't know where they have been setting check the air cleaner from the intake to the filter for a mouse nest. I seen a tractor so plugged it started sucking oil out of the crankcase. Good Luck!
The 450 dozers that had the 188 and 207 diesel engines were a gravity feed fuel system from tank. Glass strainer bowl on bottom of tank has an inlet screen on the pipe nipple that threads into tank that could be clogged. Could be a rag or piece of debris that is blocking inlet screen. The fuel line connections used rubber sleeve seals, one of those could be sucking air. Canister type filter/s could have a bad seal ring sucking air.
I'm going with the ol' plastic drive ring in the injector pump, breaking up & clogging the outlet valve trick ..... Some models have a fitting with a glass ball in it - at the marked location. This has a description of a 'tee fitting', so may not have ball in it, but still worth a look - if it is same setup as yours..... Pay to check if the whole return line is clear from pump to tank. If there is bits of small black material - the pump needs an overhaul.
ok i will check the tee fitting to look for anything out of the ordinary. and i will check the return line. it just buffalo's me, never had a diesel act line this.
i havent had a chance to take fuel lines off but i stopped by garage to take this picture and tried to back dozer outside for a sunlight picture. but now it will not even stay running long enough to back out of garage. problem seems to be getting worse.
That picture seems to show the fitting/valve between the pump & the tee. The little glass ball must move freely in the fitting - clear it with compressed air.
Ok, I want to say thank you i took the fitting out and you can see from the pictures it was stopped up. first picture before cleaning, second picture after cleaning, the dozer runs much better now. but you said if it had black stuff in the check ball fuel pump is going bad, can you explain further? is the black stuff the seals coming apart? Thanks Again David
As you continue to run the engine you will find it will block the fitting again - sometimes it only takes minutes. The contamination comes from a plastic ring that is used in the pump internals. Over time the fuel / heat takes it's toll & it breaks up into tiny pieces. It must be repaired by an overhaul - as with most things mechanical - when it has a problem, it will cause more wear & damage the longer you leave it...... BTW - that is a terrible pic - putting glasses on did not help
Thats pretty severe..I dont know if you guys know it or not but the pump manuf. has released a permanent fix for the flex-ring problem.. its an enclosed drive ring called an "EID" weight retainer. NO MORE pulling the pump every couple of years for a failed flex-ring!! runs about $50.00. Most pump shops wont tell you about it unless asked because they want the return business, if you know what I mean. Mr. Hurt> if you absolutly need your machine before you get the pump repaired, there is a "temporary patch" that can be preformed. Mail me direct for simple instructions.
sorry about the picture, cell phone picture.
ok tell me more about this fix for the pump. i have time for my dozer, i am going to south korea for a while then when i get back it will still be mud season in virginia. i have buried dozers up and over tracks buy trying to work to early in the year. so what is involved in a pump rebuild, can i scribe the housing to mark its position and take it to get rebuilt? is it just that easy?
seeing you didnt send me a PM I'll send you 1.
is the pump disassembly and reassembly as staraight forward as it seems? there are three bolts hold ing the pump on. I should scribe or mark the pump housing in some way before taking off the engine. do this before taking three bolts out. there is two seals that face away from each other that goes on the shaft that stays with the engine, is there any special installation for these seals? then for pump installation i have to line the dots up on the end of the shaft with the dot inside the pump to get timing correct. any tips for getting the pump over the new seals i pump on the shaft?? after that i bolt the pump back on lining up with the mark made from earlier. if i am missing some important steps please let me know. thanks
1) You will need a 9/16" startermotor/halfmoon spanner for the rear mounting nut & depending on the spanner make you will need to grind the ring on one half as it will not have enough clearance between spanner & pump housing. re scribing - ideally you need to check timing, but if you remove the thin rectangular cover held on with 2 screws on the side of the pump, you will see timing markers. Before you remove the pump, rotate the engine till these line up; remove the pump; do not rotate engine; when installing - align the marks. 2) The seals just stretch over the end of the shaft 3) Yes line up the 2 dots on the end of the shaft - if you don't the timing marks metioned in #1 will not align ( 180 deg out) 4) There is a tool. But it can be done easliy using fingers. Lube the seals (I use Vasolene) & gently move the pump onto the first seal, tucking in the lip with your fingers. Often as the pump is about halfway onto the first seal - withdraw the pump a little, & then back on - it seems to help.... 5) align the marks in #1 & "Bob's your Uncle" ** Do not remove the driveshaft with the pump - just undo the three mounting nuts & slide the pump off the shaft.** I usually remove the fuel filters & housing & the exhaust manifold to allow easy access to the injector lines - some guys leave the manifold on - please yourself.
ohh didnt even think about bolt in back. thanks will they to post better pictures of disassembly and installation in a couple weeks when i come back home.
keep the throttle tied back to the full throttle position..
ok, explain further. tied back while taking off shaft or just tied back the whole time off?
While taking off and putting back on, otherwise the flyweights inside the pump may become dislodged and all hell will beak loose when you start your engine.
ok will do, and i looked in the case manual under "all hell breaks loose" and didn't find anything. But it sounds expensive. thanks for the help.
ok, i'm going to feel real stupid after i ask this, but i have never hear the expresion "Bob's your Uncle" What does that mean?
It means, "there you go" or "your done".. EVERYONE has an uncle Bob..so there you go..lol
Here you go Mr hurt - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob's_your_uncle I didn't mention about wiring up the throttle to full - as it is going to a shop to be overhauled - when ever you collect them from a shop, they will always be wired up.
ok, i made it back from korea, and i spent the afternoon working on my dozer, nothing helps jet lap like grease under your finger nails. so i took a picture before i started. then i rotated the motor till the timing marks lined up. then i took a picture of all the extras taken off the pump. before i removed the pump bolts i stamped the body and pump to line backup with. then a shot of the shaft after taking pump off.
then i found a tag, dont think motor is original case, might be a rebuild at sometime. then i took a picture of my special modified 9/16" wrench. flap wheel grinder made it just the right size. then i got a shot looking into the pump, showing the dot in the tab. any special tips on how to get the seal to go back into the pump on the reinstall?
NICE JOB. Those pictures are worth their weight in GOLD for someone whose never done it before. Stanadyne[roosa master] makes a special "front seal installer" tool and that too is worth its weight in gold. Its a small, thin "pliers" that go around the seal and collapes it to allow for insallation into the "pilot tube". You can do the same thing with your fingers tho..Just lube the seals and tube WELL, I use vasoline, because its soluble and will wash-out quickly and not clog anything. Good luck and keep us posted. TPG
next question is do i replace the copper washers that go to each individual fuel injector? the was one on each side of the banjo bolt going into the fuel pump. and on the injector end of the line is there a seal or o-ring there or just flare fitting seals it?
They come in the kit and will be supplied with the overhaul. Just put one on the screw and slide the other under the line and tighten to 25ftlbs.[or snug enought not to leak] Flare fitting on the line is all.
Mr Hurt, when I replaced the pump seal on my case 188, I found that an OTC #4494 fuel line tool would hold the seal down until the pump slid over. Be carefull not to roll that seal over or you will have a lot more engine oil than you need in a short time (Diesel in the oil). HTH Dave
Loop, you are correct, I never connected the two. The tool looks VERY similar to a fuel line tool. IDK what the OTC tool costs but I think the OEM tool is about 15.00. Hurt, they changed the "copper washers" to "teflon[steel] washers" so dont freak when you dont see abunch of coppers in your kit.
I think I paid about $8 for it at O'Rielly's.. Dave
Great info from all you helpful people. It is much appreciated and mr hurt, thank you for taking the time to take and post those pictures. A fantastic way for guys like me to see and learn.
i actually think i have one of those in the toolbox, bet it would work pretty good. once i get the pump back i will post reassembly pictures. and hopefully pictures of me pushing dirt, i have had the dozer for 4 months now and havent worked with it yet, been to busy working on it.
"once i get the pump back"??
ALL THAT ADVICE, and I dont get the work?? Damn.. JUST DAMN..LOL... Glad I could help..TPG:drinkup
advice was good, but pump rebuild was local.
It's alive, i got it running again, its great. I will post assembly picture soon, but its running, its great.
pictures of assembled engine first picture is of serial number tag on pump. sorry about color not matching. i didnt have 35 year fade and grease color. next picture is of pump only on shaft. next picture is a little further back shot of dozer. next is all assembled straight on shot last is all assembled top down view. next i will get shots after i finish making brush guards. thanks to everybody for their help.
Good work! Just keep an eye on the engine oil level to be sure the umbrella seals are OK
ohhhh that would be so bad to fill the oil pan with fuel. things that make oyu go arggggggh.
Oh yeah... Been there, done that... I still have the dirty T-shirt!! Dave
action shots took a few pictures of my first project, it always is a great stress reliever to push down trees, should have had a before picture but was to excited it actually runs to stop and take picture you can see my brush guards i made out of expanded metal and the front guards i made from some old pipe laying around.
Nice pics mr hurt - your tracks look a little on the tight side.......
thanks, what would cause the tracks to be tight? too much grease? will is reach an equal point with running it or do i have to let some out?
You should back them off a little by letting some grease out of the adjusters. Ideally you would have a little bit of sag between the carrier roller & the idler.
ok will do also just got notified, our factory will be closed week of july 4th for the holiday. yes unexpected dozer time.
ok took grease fitting loose and no grease came out, even drove dozer forward and backward and track did not loosen up any. also attached is picture of front wheel and how far it is from the stop. could the spring adjustment be stuck?
Removing the grease fitting won't relieve the pressure. You need to put a 7/8" socket on the hex head shown and loosen it. It is a check valve. Sometimes it is helpfull to put a block of wood in front of the idler and move the dozer forward. Grease will come out at that point. That is a nice old machine. Brings back memories, thanks for showning us.
Sometimes if there is alot of dry mud build up in the adjuster area, they wont go back easily. If you loosen the valve & it still won't go back, try jumping on the track.
ok, i finally got time to work on my dozer, i took a 3/4" socket and backed the check valve off and didnt even get it out before grease came out everywhere. and track instantly sagged down, without even moving the dozer. now if somebody could just figure out how to get me more time to use dozer that would be great
is there a temp .,patch for the flex ring if so ,please send info,
The temporary patch is to clean the fitting out, and/or break up the glass ball and clean it out. This temporary fix may result in the flex ring breaking up and the engine "running away", so you take your chances.
yeah i cleaned out the checkball and dozer ran for a little bit, but its a temporary patch at best. I had the injector pump rebuilt, as shown above, and it was the best money i have spent. my dozer starts now as soon as motor start turning over, every time. rebuild the pump, its worth not having the headache.