Hi I have a mid 90s case 580 sl recently changed hydralic pump ,coupler ,front motor mounts drove it home used it in my yard for about 10 minutes and it has already broken 1 bolt on the coupler I stopped using it until I figure out the problem would stronger grade bolts help?
They should all be grade 8 bolts on front equipment pump coupler. Remember in the 90's there were a lot of Grade 8 bolt sold that were really Grade 5 or less. This was due to imported bolts and it caused many deaths, helicopter and plane crashes too. I would replace all 4 of them. -Peter
I had issues with a 580SL-II once. After swapping in a new pump it only lasted about 40hrs and ate the pump splines. I had it checked by Case and they warrantied it and bolted a new pump and coupler on. 50hrs later it did it again plus broke a mounting bolt. Turns out it is very important to center the pump on the mounting flange. There is just enough clearance on the bolt holes that the pump can be off center and cause side loading of the shaft and can break numerous parts. Might be something to investigate.
Thanks for the reply the coupler and everything is new I believe the bolts say 8.5 on them im not sure if thats grade 8 or not im hoping theres a stronger bolt than that as my wife will have a meltdown if I spend anymore money on this "toy" but she has no problem spending 75 dollars on a hairdo and I like the backhoe alot more
Did you check the vibration damper bolts ? The ones that screw into the crankshaft. Is the new hydraulic pump a good snug fit in the bore of the front engine mount ? The bore in that mount is precision ground for a perfect alignment with the center line of the crankshaft. If someone removed the front engine mount at some time in the past,there is a chance the front engine mount could have one or both alignment sleeves missing on the mount to engine block bolts. If one or both sleeves are missing, the pump will quite possibly be off center with the crankshaft center line. Those sleeves serve the same purpose as a steel dowel pin would in regards to maintaining alignment.
8.8 is the metric strength marking. Inch size bolts have the "hash marks" on the head indicating grade. I would guess 8.8 is the correct grade. Don't try to fix this with harder bolts, the next thing that breaks will be much more expensive that way. Go over everything you did to check for alignment, proper assembly etc. Check for play in the crankshaft also.
Sorry guys I didnt know which ones they were broke theres 4 of them they are new bolts I guess they would be the vibration damper bolts
Sorry guys I didnt know which ones they were broke theres 4 of them they are new boats I guess they would be the vibration damper bolts they bolt right into the crank with rubber bushings if its out of alignment with the crank how do you measure it thanks for the replys Ron
Are they bolts #14 ? Just for reference here is the a shot of the front pulley. Not trying to be a smarta##, but did you install new bushings (#13) when you changed the pump. Is the front part of the coupler (#6) in good condition and a good fitment in the pulley ? If #6 is not a good fit in the pulley that is another place to lose the pump alignment.
Yep they are bolts 14 new bushings someone in the past had made homemade brackets that bolted over the engine mount bolts we replaced the motor mount bushings I didnt do it myself dont know if this helps but when it first broke it had hydralic pressure but as soon as you put it in gear it would stall like it was an electrical cut out after I hAd it fixed I drove it home everything was fine and then it started cutting out again left it for the night started it next day everything was fine no stalling after a while I checked it thats when I seen the broken bolt
The #14 bolt appears to me in the drawing that it is special bolt with a long shoulder. I don't think a generic grade 8 bolt should be used there. Those bushings need to be on that smooth shoulder. It most likely has a specific outside diameter for those bushings. What is "cutting out again" ? The engine dying, transmission quitting or does it seem like the hydraulic system is under an extreme load ?
It almost seems like its under load but I can idle it up and it still did it after it quits it turns over fast and is harder to get going I think that problem could be unrelated its almost like its starving for fuel but it quits right away no sputtering after it turns over 8 or 9 times it starts again next day it was fine I also changed fuel filters when the work was done
Sorry forgot to thank you for all your time if you ever to know about c16 cats I can help but im lost with this little diesel
If it's not smoking then it's fuel starvation.
This problem of breaking bolts is usually caused by an alignment problem. You will need to look closely at the front engine mounting bracket that holds the hydraulic pump. There are four bolts that attach this bracket to the engine block - these often break when this problem exists. This bracket is doweled to the block to ensure correct alignment of the hydraulic pump to the crankshaft. You check the alignment by bolting a dial gauge to the crankshaft & measuring the runnout of the bore/spigot that the hydraulic pump sits in. You seem to have some type of hydraulic stall happening to load the engine at idle - also affecting starting. Check all your control levers, if any are sticking. Particularly look at the aux control (small lever on the RHS) at the backhoe controls. Does the machine have any electrical hydraulic solenoids? - maybe a fault there? BTW welcome to HEF! :drinkup
Can anyone give me some solid advice? I have a 1997 580L ser-1 with almost 6k hours. I had the hydraulic pump go out in July , I paid a mobile mechanic to repair it . The pump lasted bout 40 days the mechanic had a 30 day warranty . I then took it to sonsray Mach "case dealer" They gave me the works pump / bushings/ dowels/ hoses / etc the whole ball of wax. I've since taking it back 3 times with the bolts coming out . The 3rd time they drilled my top bolts and through bolted them .. I now took it back for #4 and now leaking motor oil from the block next to the bolts that they drilled and the two bottom bolts snapped again. So question is why the hell is the bolts snapping I've takin good care of this hoe not like its a pos.
Read Alrman's post #15. The solid advice is there. Either there is a problem with the motor mount not being in the correct position and is preventing the pump from being perfectly centered with the crankshaft. Or the motor mount is OK and the pump is being installed and the center-line of the two shafts are not in perfect alignment, because of the bolted down position of the pump. Also be sure to use grade #8 bolts tightened to the correct torque value on the pump.
We were renting a super l a few years back w/ about 6k hrs on it that had identical problems. spline stripped, replaced pump and coupler, replaced bolts w/ case bolts. 1 hr later 2 bolts broke.The guy drilled the 2 top bolts and thru bolted it. I havent heard from him to c if it was a permanent fix. I know once this happens it is expensive and seem that nobody know exactly what the magic fix is or exactly which part fixes it.
I would think that the dealer would know How to center it and what bolts to use.with them drilling my block and now it's cracked all they can say is your motor is junk and they will give me a price on a new block.that still don't explain why it keeps snapping .. If they did all what they charged me for I should have that on a job today not torn apart at the dealer.I've dumped 9k so far in this pump and kinda want More than "your motor is junk".
Drilling the block ?????? Why did they drill the block. That just doesn't make any sense. Are the dowel pins missing from the front mount ? Those dowel pins are crucial in regards to maintaining the crankshaft center-line alignment with the pump mounting hole center-line.
They drilled the bolt holes to through bolt the top then the dowels were worn a touch so they installed "JB" weld to hold them in.. I found on another forum that case sells larger dowels when this happens. They said JB is stronger.I'm at the end of the line with these clowns.if I put in a new block what's to stop it from doing it again.
I can't believe JB Weld locates the pump in position. "They said JB is stronger..." Stronger than "what" hardened & ground steel dowel pins ? BS ... These guys are blowing smoke and calling it fact. Addendum ... Is this the dealer ? http://sonsraymachinery.com/ Call the service manager and ream him a new one .... Nicely of course... I don't think you were dealt fairly on this repair.
Yes sonsray in Fontana California.Keith and i have been going back and forth he stands behind my block is warn out junk and I'm not having that..if it was warn out junk I should of been told that 6k back. When I first brought it in they should of said its beyond repair. Now top bolts are drilled out / bottom are jacked from doing easy-out so many times and my block has a crack and leaking oil slightly.. I'm worried that I dump another 10k or so and they still can't get it rite!
JB the dowels ???? No way in h###. That is where everything went downhill for you. It also explains why the pump mounting bolts started shearing. Evidently the engine mount bolts came loose in the block first, that allowed the mount to start moving and pound out the dowel pins. Your only way to repair your tractor now is a new block or used one with tight dowel pins in it. You will have to replace the front engine mount also. If it were mine I would locate a used engine with the original front mount still on it. There is no other way to repair the harm that has been done. I may be wrong , but that is how I see this disaster.
When you decide "Keith" is not going anywhere with your problem and escalate the process. From the California Secry of state site : SONSRAY MACHINERY, LLC Entity Number: 201224110079 Date Filed: 08/27/2012 Status: ACTIVE Jurisdiction: CALIFORNIA Entity Address: 1840 CENTURY PARK EAST STE 1900 Entity City, State, Zip: LOS ANGELES CA 90067 Agent for Service of Process: NATIONAL CORPORATE RESEARCH, LTD. (C2003899)
Time to have a "come to jesus" meeting with Keith. Sounds like they screwed the pooch and are trying to hand you the bill. It happens all the time. When I worked at the dealer I couldn't believe how big of pricks some of the equipment managers could be. Now that I'm in their shoes I completely get it. You play nice for a bit then drop the hammer if you need to. After a few "meetings" with whole management staff they tend to be more flexible in the future. Speak softly but carry a big stick!
Thank you guys very much . I just wanted to make sure that every inch has been covered before I go the next step.The more knowledge I have as bout repair Will Help me with my meeting tomorrow.. Again thank you.
Start with asking them to show the Case repair instructions to use epoxy on the dowel pins to locate the pump. Then, by what process did they determine the proper pump location while the epoxy was setting. Dealer service is to get factory trained techs following factory repair procedures. Any less is malpractice and a cause for compensation. unauthorized maintenance procedures caused the crash of American Airlines Flight 191 back in 1979. Sounds like the same happened to your machine.
I now have the transaxle installed and now to drop the hydraulic fluid and pull the rad for I as well have broken bolts in the front motor mount. How can I mount my dial gage to the crank? This sounds like a possibility a solution for we have had the front pump replaced and lousing the bolts several times. Hoping to tidy the old piece so I can get back to the other problems around the shop. lol never ending :beatsme
Which bolts in the motor mount ? If the mount to engine bolts were broken off or just loose you will need to remove the entire front engine mount and determine if the dowel pins are undamaged. That is where Dholm's problems started. I have copied the front engine mount replacement procedure from a Case service manual and am posting it so there is no doubt as to what the procedure is. Dholm; You may be able to salvage your block and mount. Unless the mounting hole for the pump has been damaged when the pump came loose after the bolts broke. Sorry Micmut, there isn't any instructions for setting up the dial indicator in the service manual. I am sure Melben, Alrman or Sheepfoot could provide that info.
Back in the day Case had some front castings mismachined and we had similar issues with pump shafts and couplers. Case supplied a tool that was a spline with a rod coming out the center to mount a dial indicator on to determine how much runout the hole had. In that circumstance the fix was to install a plate to the front mount that could be shifted to no runout by the dial indicator to get it true then drill and dowel it to the casting giving an accurate fix. It sounds like your dealer has created a very bad situation and should be willing to correct it properly. I know I will offend someone but when I see the term "JB" weld being used in any application that takes precision and strength I cringe. Personally I hate the stuff. Mel.
You need to fabricate a bracket that will bolt to the front pulley of the engine & mount a small dial gauge to it so it can run around the hole in the pump mounting, while rotating the engine by hand.
An easy method is a magnetic DI holder. The hard part will be rotating the engine by hand while you watch the indicator. Here's a link to one on e-bay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Locking-Mag...222?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f36841fde "buy it now" for $14.03
Well today I removed the pump and tryed to see if the coupling was centered in he pump hole, there were three bolts broke "grade 10.6" this will be the third time this has happened, Talking to the dealer there is a new or upgraded motor mount for the pump, and decided to order it. finding that the front of the block where the bushing sit is worn from the damage. I intend to see if i can use my dial gauge and center it the best I can, then drill and pin the mount to the block. That is the plan but not totally knowing just how i am going to do this so if any one has any ideas I'm all ears!!!! Any idea how to mount the dial gauge, would love to see what the dealer had to do this? was thinking of getting a new shaft for the pump for I have one that the splines have been chewed up, the pump that is in it now is still mint and use the shaft to mount the gauge, then later rebuild the damaged pump. I hope that I'm not dreaming that this will solve the problem? :beatsme :beatsme O by the way I thank you all for the help and info for I would be totally lost instead of just confused!!!!! :duh
Mel that is exactly what I said to them over a month ago .I found other case forums that told me about up sized dowels to ensure tightness. I also printed your info and handed it to them.end result they will look further into it..meanwhile I'm left with a large rental bill or the decision to lay a guy off at the worst time of the year.I do hope they come up with something fast
Dholm sorry if I :trdjk I can understand your dilemma, The operators and the boss are on my case when I have equipment tied up in the shop. My normal answer is "I neither made it or broke it, and we are waiting for parts." ointhead
micmut, Here is a link that shows how a dial indicator is set up. Although it for aligning a bell housing the method is the same for a front mounted hydraulic pump. Down the page another method is shown. http://www.camaros.org/bellhousings.shtml Any machine shop could could make a plate that would bolt onto the front pulley from aluminum round stock with a true center if you wanted to go that route. Just remove the front pulley and take it to them. Dholm, I reread one of my posts where I stated you may be able to salvage your engine and mount. That was an incomplete statement. What I meant was, salvage the engine for parts. There is a lot of value in it if it is in good mechanical condition. From your description of what they have done to yours, the block is damaged beyond repair. There is no way I would let them attempt to repair it. Keep us posted as to what they decide they would like to do.
To funny here is a photo taken a few weeks ago, Making me think about the Camaro! Tinkerer It would seem i may have a similar issue in the background? I will be stopping by buddys machine shop today to see what he might create for the problem. Thanks for the idea! :drinkup only question would be how to turn the motor over by hand? or by key with the injector pump turned off?
FYI guys - the bracket for the dial gauge - to fabricate for fitting to the front pulley - does not need to be centered to the crankshaft. A washer with a plate welded to the side of it with a hole drilled to mount the gauge, is all that is required. Make it solid enough not to flex. I have seen blocks that have been cracked in the front mount area repaired by metal stitching. But without addressing the pump alignment issue - it will break again. However, a new block with perfect dowel holes should certainly fix the problem..... it's just the downtime & cost that really hurts. PS - I don't think you could really measure this using a standard magnetic base stand - not very much room to allow & the bore is too small.
I think what stings the most is this is my baby. 6 years ago when I started I bought this 580 .I washed and cleaned it more than my cars. 3 more backhoes 1 excavator"mini" and two skidsteers later and this is my pride ..when the pump is not broke she will out dig the others 2-1..However all good things come to an end I guess. if sonsray will not rite there wrong I will bring it home and park it. Auction and dumping a ton of cash in it is off the table for now. Just saddened to see that professionals don't stand behind work..I could never see myself doing a customer wrong. I did not get to where I am by slap happy work.will keep you all posted on outcome.
Dial gauge bracket Dholm Don't give up there is a solution ! I made up a bracket to hold my dial gauge and found it to be out .055 in. So I ordered a new motor mount finding that there is a newer one then the original. The dealer had sent me 85mm grade 5 bolts, where the new mount calls for 100mm, and i will find grade 8. The face of the block is in rough shape so I intent to grind it to get a better runout. where the bushings may fit louse, here i'm not sure, should i glue it when i am satisfied it is true. There may not be enoff room for changing the belt after this? I do cringe of the use of jb as well. Now If any one has a good idea im open ears!!!!!!!! Would some kind of epoxy be good to fill the voids? Pulling the block is not realy wanted, rebuilding or replacing the motor is not in the budget.
This new mount is it from case or aftermarket ? Sonsray/case has not gotten back with me on anything as of yet .I'm sure they are preparing a legal defense then will tell me pound sand . hopefully not , but I will for sure ask them about this option. Thank you Dholm
How long have you been waiting on a decision from them. Realize it costs them nothing to drag their feet and ignore the problem. While it is costing you in rental fees and lost production every day. I would be calling every day until they gave me some info if it were one of our machines.
Haha deertracks you must be my wife's brother..Rental hurts but towards the end of the year I'm looking at the positive... My guy is still employed /customer is covered/and I have a tax write off.Now if I end up in court that will also show that I did not rush them and gave plenty of room to resolve this "properly" and I say that laughing
I doubt you not rushing them would have any bearing on a court decision at all. I would understand a delay if it was a new machine that Sonsray had to work with Case on to repair a factory flaw but it's an older machine that was messed up in-house. I would have expected a proposal in under a week unless the rental was provided for free. I guess I'm just a jerk.
Deertracks you would be surprised , the law constitutes "any" loss" however I still have a case mini ex and a case skid steer that I will still need parts for . so I'm trying something new calm & collective.lol . also my rental is in closed with heat & air with radio . haha so I'm not as angry as my wife she sees the bill. I'm also aware that being a older machine does fall on the priorty list but we purchased our ex new and our Skidsteer slightly used so you would think that a lil butt kiss would happen
Without any irons in this Case. (puns intended) Aren't the dowel pins there to locate the pump bracket concentric to the crankshaft? The bolts hold it into position. So ... after using the dial indicator to locate the bracket in position, drill & ream the existing dowel holes oversize to the next dowel size but still a press fit into the block. Then ream the bracket further to allow bracket removal. Seems like precision machine shop work done in the field.
As long as the erosion to the front of the block is not dealt with there is no acceptable fix and having the front of the block re milled flat would cause all other kinds of problems. I can't imagine how long that may have run loose to have erosion that deep to the face of the block. At any rate the block should be removed to do a satisfactory repair. Mel
Good pun hosspuller . That is exactly what should of been done when they first noticed the dowel ware.I had pulled that off of another forum and handed it to them. It had sizez & part numbers.. I agreed my mobile guy dropped the ball the first time this job apparently was above his pay grade.He was not keen on how alignment worked . That is why I turned to the dealer. After all what I've learned you are 100% correct To drill and upsize the dowel pins to insure no movement after alignment.
Hosspuller; In post #16 Dholm said they have done immense harm to the front-mount to engine bolt holes. They even managed to create a situation that the block is now cracked. It is a sad situation to be in Dholm. I hope you can get them to pony up and fix it the way it should be fixed.
Sonsray up date. Well there really isn't to say except last weeks email response was we are still looking into it.. I think the next email will go to corporate. Happy holidays to all. Dan
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