Almost sounds like an x-rated movie. I was using the swing of the hoe to back-fill the hole with the side of the bucket. I must have had the hoe swinging too fast to the right, when I hit the control for the left, and I heard a loud noise from under me. Then the swing controls were dead. If I put my foot on either side, it is barely noticeable that the cylinder wants to move, but has no pressure going to it. The engine does not change RPMS nor do I hear any pressure relief go off while doing so. I can manually swing the hoe back and forth (wow that thing is heavy) while the machine is running. Any idea what this could be? Is there something that would have broke in the hydraulic controls? I have the operators manual and should be able to take it apart myself, but I figured I would ask for some help first just incase it's just a foo foo valve or something I am unfamiliar with. Also, how does a guy get all those hydraulic lines off... do you have to use crows feet wrenches? Thanks! Here are some pics of my rig... I only have 3 grand into it and have put 200~ hours on the machine.
Well folks, thanks for reading my post. I am at the point in a few days to tear it apart to try to find the problem. Would you start with the easier option and see if something broke in one of the sing cylinders, or would you tackle tearing the hydraulic controls out and taking them apart? Any help would be appreciated, Thanks! Dustin
Thats a 580ck, do all the other functions still work right? No broken hydraulic lines?
RoadRunner, All other functions work fine and at 100%. No broken hyd lines, and no leaks. My father thinks the problem would be in the control valve, maybe a broken spring or something? My father in law thinks that the it could be a broken cylinder... but then why wouldnt it be leaking?
MasterSplinter, I'm no expert on the CK, not even certain what components are inside the slew cylinders on them, Phil would be the one you need to talk to, not sure why he hasn't spotted this thread yet. But I'm going to venture a guess your problem is not in the control valve, more likely the cylinders use a multi-piece piston retained by a large bolt and the bolt has either broke the head off or it has screwed itself out leaving you with no piston on one cylinder. I'm reluctant to advise you to dive into those cylinders being uncertain that's where the problem lies, but it's my best suspicion that's where you'll find your failure.
I too think Phil is the one to talk to. I have a hard with thinking it could be a damaged cyl. unless both let go. It seems to me that the other would still retain some function, I guess its all in the plumbing. Do the pedals feel normal?
Thanks for the suggestions everyone... Roadrunner, the foot pedals feel just normal. When I push them I can barely see an effort for the hoe to swing... yet I can get out and move the hoe by hand. Does Phil come on here a lot or would be it ok to message him?
Phil pops in here early in the morning, and somtimes in the evening. After 9 PM, forget it. LoL He typically spots any thread with 580B, 580CK and such, he'll show up eventually. The way the hoses connect to the two cylinders tee's the lines to both cylinders. For example, left swing sends oil to the piston side of one clyinder and the rod side of the opposite cylinder. If you were to have complete failure of the piston seals on one cylinder, the oil would simply bypass inside that cylinder and cause no build of pressure to operate opposite cylinder.
Atco, would there be an easy way to test each cylinder? Even if I take them off (easier than taking out the hydraulic controls) how would one test them outside of the machine. I may be able to borrow a hand pump hydraulic control and could see if they move with that.
Well, I don't have any experience working with a CK or a B, but typically speaking "easy" isn't a word that applies with swing cylinders. You could test them on the machine, but that would require pulling the pins that attach the rods to the swing post then disconnect and cap the lines on one cylinder and operate swing to see if the opposite cylinder builds pressure at the end of in and out strokes. I would add that if you find one of the cylinders is faulty and you have to pull the innards out of it, I wouldn't do just one cylinder, I'd do both of them.
Well, I suppose doing that first would either find or eliminate the problem. It's suppose to be 15f out tomorrow, not a bad temp to lay in the snow under the machine and try to cap off one of those lines and test it. Oh I love equipment
Yeah, It sounds like the piston bolt in one of the slew cyilinders let go. Quick way to confirm that is to pull the cyilinder pins on the swing tower and try to pull the rods out. Do not move the backhoe any more then you have to! You will damage the cyilinder if you ram the piston and the broken bolt into the back. We had a hydroleveler cyilinder fail on our 580b for the same reason. It scratched the cyilinder bore up and ruined the piston, and we could not tilt the loader.
Good idea. If the piston was off the rod, you should be able to simply pull the rod out because there would be no resistance from a piston.
Puffie, I think I understand what you are taking about. Part 15 in the diagram of the swing cylinder is called a "Piston and cushion relief retaining bolt" Should be torqued on there at 1200lbs... guess I'll be bringing it in to someone else if this is what is broken. I guess the loud noise I heard could have been one of those bolts breaking, As they are 1 and 1/4 inch. So if I take the pins out where they attach to the swing post, I should be able to push and pull the one that is broken in and out... I wouldn't think both would break at the same time, so maybe only one cylinder is shot? Looks like a $700 cylinder, new price. Hope it's salvageable!
here's the cylinder diagram
Yup, has a multi-piece piston retained by a bolt. I'd venture a wager one of them has come apart.
The hard part of working on these things is the weather. My 580b/dozer/dumptruck are all 30 miles away from our house (house that's on the market!). So tomorrow morning, I'll cross my fingers and hope the old John Deere 1010 starts so I can plow the snow away enough to work on it. Do any of you tackle these cylinders yourselves, or is it smarter/cheaper to bring them in and have them fixed? Thanks!
I typically tackle those cylinders myself by leaving the barrels attached to the machine and remove the gland, then pull the rod, gland, and piston out of the barrel. If you have a failed piston or piston seal, you will most likely be able to pull them apart, but once you put new seals on it, you will have to disconnect hoses from at least one of the cylinders to allow trapped air to escape during assembly.
Thanks for the advice, I could see taking that cylinder out isn't as easy as all of the other ones on the machine. It's a tight area down there to be working on. It looks like the only tool I need is a huge spanner wrench, and somehow the capability to torque 1000 to 1200ft lb's torque on the relief retaining bolt. That is, if it's broken off and I can get it out, and the rest of the cylinder wall isn't messed up. After getting my next years property tax statement today in the mail, my dream of having a nice shop to work on things just disappeared. Taxes went up 51%.
Would it make a difference if the machine is running or not when I try to pull/push those cylinder rods in and out? Either way it would bypass all of the rings if they were shot right....
Engine not running. Remove the pin that attaches the rod to swing post. If piston was off of rod, you would be able to pull the rod out of the cylinder. In theory at least. If it were just the piston seal failed, might have a little more resistance, but rod would still be able to be pulled out.
We rebuilt most of the cylinders on our 580B ourselves. We did have to make a few pin wrenches to take them apart. If the bolt is broken and you don't have a lathe, there is a chance you have to take the rod to a machine shop to remove the broken bolt.
Well folks, I went out to the winery (That's our project!) site and took a look at those cylinders. I popped the pins out and pryed a bar between the hoe and the end of the cylinder eye, and neither would go back and forth. If I pushed on one, the other one wanted to do the opposite and go out, but would rebound to exactly the same spot. If I were pushing with a crowbar onto the hydralics, and then pushed the foot control down, the ram would go in and the other ram would go out. This is with the machine off. Any idea what it could be? Thanks!
And a pic of what I was playing with....
With both cylinders unpinned there is minimal resistance. Try pinning one cylinder and then pry on the other cylinder without stepping on the pedal. If you can pry the cylinder in with not much resistance, one of them is bypassing. if you get a hydraulic lock, then the cylinder isn't bypassing, then it would mean considering an internal crack between the left and right turn ports in the valve.
These may be a pain to get to, but you need to get some JIC plugs and caps to put on hoses and fittings. Disconnect the hose where it connects to fitting #31 at rear of cylinder on left, plug the hose fitting and cap the cylinder fitting. Start machine, work your swing pedals and see if cylinder on the right extends and retracts, even check to see if it loads engine when reaching end of stroke. Just be careful when you're extending the cylinder and reaching the point where it pins up to the swing post since you now don't have it pinned to the post. If that cylinder is operating proper, re-connect hose at fitting #31, disconnect hose at fitting #29 at rear of cylinder on right, perform same procedure. Let us know how that works out.
Thanks for the help again guys... Oldseabee, as you see in the picture, by prying on one cylinder to go in, the other came out a half an inch and then hits the boom and can't go further. I would say it's as tight as being pinned for that experiment, but I will try it that way today before I try Atco's way of plugging the cylinder. I love how Atco's diagram show's the cylinder's apart and easy to get at... Maybe I'll be makin some special wrenches today with my few set of torches! Looks like it should warm up to at least 30f today... I'll be wearing a t-shirt.
I had leaking swing cylinders on my 580CK (1969) and it was not difficult to get them off. I knocked the pins out and used a BIG CHEATER bar to help loosen the bolts holding them in place. Disconnected the hoses and manipulated the heavy bast**ds out of the hoe. The HARD part was paying for them to be rebuilt since it takes way more torque pounds than I can generate in my shop. I am thinking based on your description of movement and circumstance that you are headed for removal and troubleshooting of the valves/spools also.
Hope you don't mind all the pictures, let me know if I put too many on here. After trying Oldseabees way of re-installing the pin and trying to pry the cylinders in, nothing moved on either side. So I went to 3 different stores trying to find the right fittings to cap the hose and rear of the cylinder, and got that capped.I started the machine and at low rpms slightly pressed the foot control... and the rod went plopped out and landed on the ground. No bolt or anything in the end either. I noticed some small wirey looking strands, the kind you see when you pull out a cross threaded bolt. Not sure how or why they were there. I tried to remove the cylinder, but as you can see in the pics it was dark. And cold. And wet. And I was hungry. I got all 8 bolts out of the 2 "trunion pins" but the one on the top doesnt want to pop out. There might not be enough clearence in there with the hydraulic lines there either. I saw 2 extra threaded holes in the top of the plate and threaded bolts in it to try to pull itself out of the hole. It's stuck... I got it about 1/32 of an inch up and could pry a few screwdrivers under it but thats it. I sprayed the heck out of it with JB Blaster, and put a tarp over it till next time I get out to the machine. Excuse me folks, I have a date with a jar of Goop hand cleaner and the shower.
a few more
I used a floor jack to help persuade the cylinders to lift out of the base. I jacked up a small hardwood block and pushed the top trunnion up. It will come out.
MasterSplinter, The hydraulic lines will have to come off to get the clearance to get the top trunnion caps off. Those trunnion caps should have two threaded holes for jack bolts. A total of six holes in the cap. They may be hard to see because of being packed with dirt. It is possible there may even be hidden under a coat of paint.
Well, it looks like ya found your problem. Carry on. Man, if I could get those cylinder glands out, I'd be tempted to leave the cylinder cans attached to the machine to re-seal the cylinders.
+1, I've got my machine in a shed, with a concrete floor.......and will be leaving the cylinders in for the rebuild. Avoid removing them if you can IMHO.
I left the swing cylinders in my machine when I repacked them. Worked out pretty well. I found the jack bolt holes when I had to remove one of the swing cylinders to reweld a cracked seam at the base of the cyl.
Yeah, a bolt let go, taking some threads with it. look over it really good to make sure the threads are not completely gone (You should be able to just go one size over if they are). Run a tap and get a new grd8 bolt long enough to run the full length. I would take the opportunity to put new seals into that cyilinder - I would not want to take it apart again after all that effort!
Thanks for all the support folks! I see a kit here for $28 bucks... does that sound right, or do any of you have a better dealer that you know personally and would sell me the right parts/kit? http://www.equipmentpartssource.com/onlinestore/store_seal_hydraulic_case580b.php Oh I can't wait to get more propane cylinders for the lantern so I can work on this thing again!
I'm not completely sure which hoe you have on your CK as I'm not a CK expert, but if it has the swing cylinders I think it has, you can't use just an ordinary bolt to retain the piston. The bolt has a hollow center to accept a restrictor pin and some misc parts that make a swing deceleration device to slow the boom down when it nears the end of piston stroke so it doesn't go ka-blam when you hit the end of stroke. I think when you get that cylinder apart, you're going to find you need some parts from Case.
Atco, I was wondering about that, but i have yet to find a spanner wrench (that's a big one) to take the seal gland out. I was working on taking the entire cylinder out, but I guess it's not bad to just work on it and keep it in the machine if I can. Good thing no one bought our current house and I don't need the machine for digging right now. If anyone wants a nice little house in Duluth MN let me know... Atco, Your diagram is slightly different than mine, are you taking it out of a book? Mine's from the case manual itself
Not from manual, I'm simply downloading those pages from Case website. Like I said, I'm not sure which hoe your machine has so I can't say illustrations are accurate, more than likely not. I was simply trying to point out something that is common on those vintage hoes, in case that's the type of components you have. Case has available the spanner tool you need to remove the gland head, of course you could always make one. Also, be sure and look for a small machine screw in in the side of the gland to keep the gland from turning, you need to remove that screw before removing gland.
Oh ok, pictures right from the cow's udder. I like that. I'm not sure exactly what hoe it is either, I took it off something that looked like a 530 or so... and I had to "make" it fit the tractor itself where the bushings and large pins hold the unit on. If anyone's interested in the 3 pt hitch that I took off the unit, let me know.
I have an OTC 1266 spanner wrench that I use on these type of glands. The last set I did was on a Super M I believe. Some of the case glands have a small screw in the gland locking it into the barrel of the cylinder. I left the barrels in the cylinder and just got the rods out. JJ
I hope you like my home made spanner wrench. It worked just fine! As for the bolt/rod I will be taking to an engine/machine shop tomorrow and seeing if they can fix the threads on the inside of the rod. I think what happened was the bolt backed out slowly over time, and finally when it only had a few threads left and had a lot of force on it, it pulled itself out and that's when I heard the loud noise. Still not sure how to measure the 1000 to 1200lb torque to get the bolt into the rod. I'm guessing the last guy didn't either and that's why I have it apart. My father says I can put that much force on it with about a 3 foot bar on a wrench, but that is still no way of measuring. He also suggested using an impact wrench. Every time I ask him how tight to turn a bolt he always says "Oh about a half a turn before it breaks"
Wow, I'm surprized there's no more damage than what you have, you came out pretty good on this breakdown. I see you managed to hold on to that little disk that goes in the bottom of the bolt hole that the spring sets on.
Atco, That little disc actually stayed in the rod. When the rod went flying out into the snow I tilted it up to drain the fluid and it fell right out in the snow. I thought it was a nickle... so I spent a half hour of digging to find it. Still trying to figure out how to measure 1000lb force on that bolt. I spose I'll crank it on tight as I can, I know I can't break it! (eat my words later?) Just ordered a new seal kit for $38 with shipping.
I've never worried much about exact torque on those type cylinders. Just clean the threads of oil with starting fluid and air nozzle, apply some red Locktite to bolt threads, set bolt, and torque it down good with a cheater pipe, you'll be Ok.
To torque that to exactly 1000ftlbs you need either a 3/4"torque wrench and a torque multiplier,or a Hytorq setup.If you weigh about 200lbs,and use 5' of pipe,you should come pretty close by standing on it.
LOL Your spanner wrench looks like it did a fine job. Hey whatever it takes to get the job done. Down here in Texas I am not familiar what all the white stuff is on the ground. That in itself would be enough to make me quit. I hate cold weather. As far as the bolt torque. I just B12 it off really good. Let it completely dry then Red loctite it. Then put it on as tight as I can get it with my 1/2 impact. JJ
I used a 4:1 multiplier with my 600ft/lb torque wrench, big thing is finding a strong anchor point, luckily I had a few handy on the tractor, Vice & workbench won't usually take 1200ft/lbs of torque. should be able to rent a torque multiplier if you can't find a loaner.
how did you end up making out with this? i believe i have the same problem.