I have a 1972 Case 580B backhoe with the hydro-static transmission and 188 series diesel engine (I believe). I just put in a new radiator, water pump, and thermostat only to find out that all my water goes straight from the radiator to the crankcase I don't think I overheated it when I was running it with the old leaky radiator that I always had to feed with water, but now I'm wondering. I looked on Case's website and see that the piston sleeves are o-ringed. I figure that I either have a blown head gasket, broken piston sleeve o-ring, or cracked block. I'm thinking if its a cracked block that I'm toast. But if its a head gasket or o-ring problem on a sleeve I have a fighting chance to get her fixed up. I'm hoping that a head gasket or o-ring would fail before the block cracks. Anyone know what the most common problem is when the water would rather be in the crankcase instead of the radiator, and what I might be up against? Appreciate any input and advice.
Maybe you will be ok, i would pull the oil pan and see which cyl.it is leaking from so you can give that one a good exam.Also i know this is a long shot but was it doing this before the water pump & rad. change ?
I'm really not sure if it was doing it before the water pump and rad. change. I parked it when the radiator went south and she sat about a year. What are ya thinking on that long shot? Also, I will be able to identify a bad sleeve with just the pan off?
Well i was hoping that if it started after the change maybe that it could be leaking from something in the water pump area leaking into the timeing cover, can't remember just how a 188 is made there. Yea take the pan off And fill her up&see where it is coming from.Then when you take her down you will know where to look . Hope this helps
Fill it up with water and put air pressure through the radiator. You can pull the injectors and see if you get water in a cylinder, then it's hopefully a head gasket. Better bet is to pull the pan & have a buddy apply air to the water in the radiator and you'll probably see the water seeping from the bottom of the offending sleeve. I rebuilt mine in-frame and have had good luck with the engine. There's a lengthy thread here about the rebuild. It's scary when you say "all" the water ends up in the crankcase. Good Luck! Packratc
I think i would pull the valve cover first and check the freeze plugs in the head, install rad hand pump and check, then pull the pan and do the same with the hand pump taking a close look to see if water is running down the inside of the liner or around the sleeves at the base. I would not pull the head untill the pan is removed and inspected for pressure checking reasons.
packratc, I ran it twice and let it run until I was positive the thermostat opened. Maybe idled it twice for about 10 minute each. Between those 2 runs, about 3 gallons of water went to the case.
I like the pressure test idea. Should I remove the thermostat or leave it it when I do it?
Dumping 3 gallons in twenty minutes into the crankcase? If you get the valve cover and oil pan removed, shouldn't be hard to find that bad of a leak source.
packratc, Thanks for all the great input.....can you point me to that thread on the rebuild?
I had the same problem on a ford backhoe and the head gasket was the problem. I also had another machine that I replaced the head gasket on and it still leaked into the oil and I bought some stuff that you pour into the radiator and run the machine for a hour or so and then flush it out. I never believed in that kind of stuff but it worked and that machine is still running with no problems. I believe I ordered it offline. Your machine is leaking so bad you will have to pull the head.
Your leak is going to be pretty evident. Could this machine have frozen at any time? Does it miss? Can you run a compression check? Isn't there a bolt behind the water pump that goes through the water pump housing and into the head? Could you have taken that out and left it out? If you just put water in it and don't run it, does it leak just sitting there? That is a "bad" leak. Packratc
The in-frame rebuild thread is "Bad Miss, may have major trouble! 1967 580ck. Roughest backhoe in captivity." I had a little drama going on at the time with money leaking out kinda' like your water. It just got worse after that. Good luck. Packratc
Wow...you really got me thinking here on the water bolts. I bought the water pump from Case so Id imagine its OEM. Now there was a note in their to use the supplied bolts (they were longer) based on a serial numbers. I cant remember but it said to use your original bolts if it was before s/n xxxcc and the supplied bolts if it was after s/n xxx. I'm pretty sure I used the originals because the water pump matched exactly the same as the one I took of. I cant remember #$*! anymore. As far as a bolt behind the water pump that goes through......I don't think I left any bolts out. I drained the oil tonight and refilled the radiator with water. Ill see tomorrow night if its leaking through just sitting there. The possibility of it freezing does exist as it went through a winter without antifreeze because of the bad radiator and I just fed it for awhile. Its hard for me to work on it on weeknights but I sure have a lot to check out this weekend thanks to all of you guys! I'll post what I find as soon as I find it.
Here's the link to thread referenced by packratc in post #13. > HeavyEquipmentForums
The bolt I was remembering you, I don't think would remove just to change the impeller part of the water pump. This one, if I remember right, is behind the impeller and bolts the water pump housing to the head. I really don't think you would even see it or know it was there unless you were taking the head or the water pump housing off. But by your description you've got a LARGE amount of water getting into bad places and that sort of leak should be pretty evident. Good Luck! Hey, I'm not necessaarily one of them, but there's a terrific amount of knowledge on this site and from good folks who are generous with their time and with sharing their expertise. These folks can help you fix it. Packratc
If it were mine I wouldn't start and run the engine with that much water going into the oil pan that fast.
It would/will be interesting to see if that large amount of water goes straight to the oil pan without starting it. I'd try it just for the heck if it and wouldn't waste the expense of putting oil into it. Of course I wouldn't even turn it over with the starter without putting oil in it. If it's like mine it starts in a hurry when it's moderate temperature out. Packratc
Does that 188 head have any freez plugs under the valve cover?
So as ya'll know I drip dried the crankcase last night, filled the radiator and checked tonight. First clue, the radiator was down about and inch, and sure as poop, a good 2 cups of crystal clear water came out the oil drain plug. I never started it. That's just sitting for about 24 hours. I'm starting to think I did something stupid when I put the new water pump on. I will be looking for a freeze plug when I take the valve cover off soon. Both sheepfoot and shopguy mentioned freeze plugs under the valve cover. Could I get so lucky!! I don't even want to think about a cracked block. Then I'm not sure if I'll go back into the water pump installation or pull the pan and do the pressure test ya'll advised. packratc....thanks to willie59 I got to your thread on your adventure with your rebuild. I bow down to you and it was great reading. You are right about all these folks! Ya'll are great people helping me on this issue. I'll be digging in hard this weekend and finding some answers thanks to all of you. Its nice to have direction when you don't know where to start!! Now I have a plan. Thanks all. I will keep this post going as I go.
Wish we could be more help.
Case 188 engine has three freeze plugs in the head under valve cover, item #22.
Racing darkness after getting home from work, I got the valve cover off tonight. Just like willie59's diagram, there are 3 little 1" freeze plugs in the head. There was water in every pool that would hold water so I blew all the water out with an air nozzle and cleaned it up. Unfortunately those little dang freeze plugs look nice and shiny and no evidence of them being the problem. The old saying "Hope is not a plan" surely applies here. Dang it! I did see rust on the rocker tower bolts and up inside the valve cover suggesting that it has probably been a problem for awhile. I am going to take that as it probably isn't due to a faulty water pump installation which I just did. It couldn't imagine it rusting that soon in that oily environment. So now I'll have to wait for the weekend and pull the pan. I sure wish I would have raised the bucket and blocked it up like I read in packratc's post with the angle iron while I could still start it for short burst. Maybe I can crack a hose and raise the bucket up with my little Ford 1700. I know all you guys like pictures so I'll have to figure out how to post pics as I go through this. I saw that front axle A frame support that goes back to the bell housing area. I'm not going to have to disconnect and move the axle forward to get the pan off am I?
If you currently have the machine in the spot you're going to do repairs, simply drain the cooling system, drain the oil pan, add some fresh oil, start it up and raise loader arms to install safety prop. The extent of time it will take to raise loader arms will only take a few moments, certainly not enough time to even warm the engine up even without coolant. And yes, we a gluttons for pictures. Here's a thread that might give you some tips on posting pics. >
I would pull the valve cover and look at the cup plugs in the head as suggested above.... If they are intact, I'd wager your liner rings are shot. I had to replace em in the 207 in my 580d a couple years ago. The 207 is basicly a bigger version of the 188. I'm not sure if leaking could be observed if you pull the oil pan or not. I had similar problems to yours and that was it.
ScottAR, when you say similar problems do you mean a lot of water in the crankcase like I described earlier? Also, did yours by any chance leak water into the case just sitting without running. Im really hoping at this point it is the liner rings because the only other think would be a cracked block I would imagine. Thanks for the input. Oh.....you don't think I'll see it leaking once the pans off hey?
I had a lot of water yes. Pan holds about 8-9 quarts of oil on a 207 as I recall and the "milk mix" I had coming out was nearly 5 gallon. I'm not sure about leaking while sitting but I would think so as the block is pretty much open inside with the liner rings separating the water jacket and the crankcase. I'm not sure about the leaking being seen because I didn't look. It may show up or not I just don't know. As far as what to take off to get the oil pan down I'm unsure. I just had to take the drag link loose on one end and that made enough room but that was a 580D.
Well that sure sounds like my situation. Hopefully I'll get down to the cause this weekend. Have a couple honeydoos' and then I'm going in. Thanks for the info ScottAR.
So a good buddy of mine and myself got a good day in on the tear down. Took the pan off, pressurized the radiator and we could see water coming out from the sleeve on cylinder 2 (from front). So we started to take the head off. I heard what you guys said about the bolt behind the water pump so we took that off. That water pump is no easy task. Hard to get the fan off and out without taking the radiator out and hard to take the radiator out without taking the fan off. Its like the chicken and the egg. Anyway.... guess what..... there's not a bolt in that hole behind the water pump. I see threads in there though. I think, hope, that's a water jacket hole anyway. A hollow bolt was mentioned once. Anyone know for sure? See pic. Then things went bad. The bolt that holds the alternator bracket that also goes into the head snapped off. The last dang bolt. Can you believe it? :Banghead So we had to take the radiator and cooler out so we could drill it out. Had about another 1/8" to go and ran my batteries down on the drill. Was getting dark anyway so called it a day. We should have the head off this afternoon though.
I'm unsure on the 188 but the water pump bolt on the 207 isn't hollow but an allen socket head. I got to buy a set of allen bits for mine. The only hollow bolt I'm aware of is the one that holds one of the rockerarm stands. Return it to the stand you find it in. Depends on the engine according to my case manual. Above a certain serial number it goes in the back. Below it goes in the middle but my memory is fuzzy as it was a couple years ago. I used zip ties to cinch all the rockers together and took off the whole stand and all the last time.. Makes it some easier than trying assemble it with all those shaft springs fighting you.
Finished drilling out that bolt and got the head off. When we did the pressure test we saw water coming out #2 so we pulled that piston and sleeve. The o-rings look flat but they were not broken. You can see some evidence of rust trails below the o-rings on the sleeves (zoom in on sleeve pic) . Also, one of the compression rings was broke. The head gasket looked fine so it wasn't that. That dang bolt behind the water pump is really bothering me. I looked on Case's site and they show it as a plug for the '72 Case 580B with hydro-static? Anyway, I'm into it now so wheres should I look to get a sleeve kit? I don't want to go here again. I should just do all 4 since I'm in this deep. Just another pic......
Joseph Industries. > http://www.joseph.com/
Since I cant work on my engine on weekdays cause its just about dark when I get home, I try to get my research in on putting her back together. Here's what I've picked up by reading your guys post. Good stuff from packratc, shopguy, alrman, and Tinkerer to mention a few. 1) Install the liners without the o-rings, clamp them down with the bolt and washer method and check the liner height. Shim as required to bring to spec. Then put the 0-rings on and butter them up good with o-ring lube. 2) I saw alrman's method of the valve adjusting procedure.... To adjust #1 on compression look for #4 to be rocking; adjust #3 with #2 rocking; adjust #4 with #1 rocking; adjust #2 with #3 rocking; 3) I'm still torn about that bolt behind the water pump that was not in mine when I took it apart. Some say its a hollow bolt so I reckon the water must pass through as that's a water passage. If that's the case (pardon the pun) a missing bolt isn't a show stopper. But I saw a diagram on Cases web site and it shows what appears to be a plug. And I also read that if the head isn't lined up right due to bad sleeve height that the water pump bolt wont line up and go in....makes perfect sense. I need to figure out if I'm supposed to have a bolt or a plug. 4) I also didn't remove the front cover to take the head off. I can see that will be a real problem putting the head back on. Looks like packratc used silicone instead of a gasket or did you use both. Seems like he loosened the front cover enough to wedge it forward far enough to get it on and seal. Comments?? Lastly, where can I find all my specs like liner height, rocker arm clearances, rod and head torques, head tighting pattern etc? I don't have a manual. I'll keep digging into the wealth of information all you guys have laid out in this awesome forum but I really struggle searching for what I'm looking for. I'm not doing something right in my searches. I knows its all in here, I just have to find it. This next weekend I will have everything out and cleaned up to start putting it back together. I'm going to have to find a place to get my liner kit from. I cant wait to post up pics of all the pretty new shiny stuff going back together!! Maybe I can earn a Senior Member merit badge by the time this is all over...
Found where packratc got his kit. They also had the specs I need. http://www.agkits.com/images/G188D.gif It says sleeve protrusion is .002 - .006? Is that a different thing? I'm thinking I'm about .050? Just rambling though.....am I a G188D? More home work for me!!
I tried to cover most of this during my engine rebuild. I don't think that the bolt behind the pump is hollow. If it is I don't remember. I did loosen the front cover and used the gasket and silicone to put the head back on. Couldn't get head in place without loosening it. For an out-of-frame rebuild you'd take the water pump housing off. My manual is out in the shop or I'd check that bolt for part number. The most valuable tool that I've purchased for my backhoe is the factory manual. I first bought a CD and it's pretty good. But it ain't nothin' like the manual. The crankshaft is pretty tough. I looked the bearings all over and plastiguaged (sp?) a couple. They were standard and I replaced them all. I took someone else's advise and bought my rebuild kit online & it was good quality stuff. These are pretty straight-foward diesel engines. Should be a piece of cake. Good luck. Packratc
I'm guessing you got this kit.... http://www.agkits.com/Case-188-G188D-Diesel-Engine-Rebuild-Kit.aspx Looks like a good deal.....I really wasn't thinking about doing the mains though. You did your mains "in frame" and slid them up in there with the nail trick hey? Its a tough decision. I have that "if it aint broke, don't fix it" philosophy. But then in this case you'd sure kick yourself in the butt if you don't when your in that deep hey?
Yep, did the mains too. When you're that deep in it it ain't no big thing. I think that the condition of the mains will just indicate whether the previous owners changed oil often enough. No matter. If they're bad their bad. Make sure your rear main seal is not leaking. It's time to do it too if need be. Good luck, Packratc
Hey dont give that dang bolt another thought just look at the head and see where the hole leads to or still not sure hit it with a blow gun see where it goes i have heard of them being left out because the head had been shaved so many times it would not line up .Was the water coming from inside or out side the sleeve ?
shopguy....I have only pulled one liner so far. I didn't see a real positive leak trail through the o rings. I figure I'll see a nice rust trail passing by the problem area. I will pull the other 3 this weekend and hopefully find the cause of the leak. What I'm trying to say is right now I don't really know where it was leaking.
Well i guess there are different ways but a drip is easer to find than a trail (for me anyway) . When you put it back leave the pan off and fill and pump & leave it over night then you know you got .Good Luck
I'm hoping your going to see something that will explain all that water in the pan without it running. Hoping, also, that it's not a crack. Too late to check now, but I wonder if the water level would drop in the radiator and then stop at the same point every time. When it's running you've got compression and heat to help it leak. When it's cold & not running gotta be a hole, crack, or something missing. Am I missing something? Packratc
I'm with you packratc........ hole, crack, or paleeze be a sleeve o ring. This weekend I'll get the other 3 out. I have eliminated the "something missing" because it didn't leak before. Well.....it didn't leak into the case before I changed the water pump but i don't think its that. It sat for over a year plus with no antifreeze and I only started it to move it to an area where i could pressure wash it and change the radiator which also turned into the water pump replacement. It didn't leak when i parked it with the rotted radiator. Arghhhhhh....
By the way....Thanks wille59......that worked like a champ..... If you currently have the machine in the spot you're going to do repairs, simply drain the cooling system, drain the oil pan, add some fresh oil, start it up and raise loader arms to install safety prop. The extent of time it will take to raise loader arms will only take a few moments, certainly not enough time to even warm the engine up even without coolant.
Hey, I knew by experience that little trick would make your work a little easier.
Here is a link to a thread by Phil, who is an absolute expert Case mechanic and who is AWOL from HEF. HeavyEquipmentForums
Good catch Tinkerer... I looked earlier but couldn't find it. Read this thread 2-3 times when I worked on my D.
I just went through an out of frame on my 188D. A couple things that may help. First that bolt under the water pump is not necessary. My machine didn't have one and was fine. The 188D block has several weaknesses, which I found out personally. They are prone to cracking between the cylinders, among other places. As I found block cracks are very hard to find even when looking, especially on a dirty block. I strongly suggest closely examining your block before ordering any parts - another mistake I made. Another issue with the 188D is rot around the liners. The blocks can rot past the place where the liner orings seal and then you've got problems. Thats another thing I would check before ordering parts. My project turned into a real *** show as it progressed, pretty much everything we touched was broken or worn out. After talking with people this is not an uncommon experience. Make sure you know what you've got before you make a big committment of time and money.
Thanks for the info CasIns! I like the part about the water pump bolt. It puts one of my issue's to bed. I hear what your saying on the other issues and crossing my fingers its a bad liner seal. I will know this Saturday.
Well.....I've been waiting for the weekend to get the liners out and inspect the o-rings and block. You guys aren't going to believe this but my dang blocked is cracked on 3 cylinders. Both the top web at the head and the bottom web at the main journals are cracked. I'm sure its a result of me leaving straight water, no antifreeze, in the block last winter when I parked it :crying. I deserve to be posted on "The Wall of Shame". I am currently punishing myself by smoking a good cigar and abusing beer. Soooo....anyone know where I can get a G188D block? I just saw one go on e-bay for $95.00. This is really a bad situation because these old B's don't really justify themselves for dumping a lot of money into them. Here's a scary thought that I would appreciate some feedback on. I have a couple more home jobs I want to do. I want to punch and bury a 40 foot container into a hill side so just the front door is exposed and pull a couple more stumps. Then I can retire her and maybe part her out. What if I slapped it back together with some new sleeve o-rings, gaskets etc. and put in some of those new fangled stop leak products? I just spent around $500 on a new radiator and water pump. What if I put a petcock on the oil drain plug and worked it a couple hours a day, let it sit over night so the water and oil could separate, then drain the water and go another couple hours? I'm in that tough spot between commitment and tractor death. I'm really reaching here aren't I? (Beer must be kicking in) . Looking forward to your guys thoughts and here's a few pics for your viewing pleasure. On another note, I found a broken bronze bushing laying on the bottom of the bell housing, just under the flywheel. Appears to be about a 1/2 ID. Where in the heck could that have come from? The only thing I see going into the block that might take a bushing that size is the tach cable going to the cam but I don't see how it could have made it down into the block.
I just looked at the pics after the post and they don't do it justice. You have to zoom in to see the cracks on the picture showing all 4 holes and the 1st picture showing the bottom of the hole.
Sorry to see the mess you found. I was afraid of something like that. It was just too much water too fast. You might get a really, really good welder to nickle rod weld it but it would be tough and a long shot. The other thing is to glass the block. I've got an old truck I let freeze about 12 years ago. You can see two cracks on the outside of the block. It runs like a top & I never add water. That's probably what I would do. You only venture the gaskets, rings, and maybe 20 bucks. If the rest of the hoe is really good, wait on another good deal on a block or complete engine to come along. Let us know what you do and the outcome. Packratc
packratc, Ya...it was a too much water too fast. I'm sorry but I don't know what "glass the block" means. I'm up for anything.
Well dont worry bout the cracks on top between the cylinders that is common and wont hurt because there is water on both sides of the crack the liner seals aganst the head as for the lower ones i dont think it is cracked into the oil passage or would have a rad. full of oil also you only saw one leak #2. I think i would repair the cracks on or above the o ring area in the block with a good grade epoxy and give the old girl a new life . I think that is a starter bushing in the bell housing.Dont kick yourself too bad ,never seen ice crack on the inside without outside. Good Luck
Sodium Silicate. Google it. You remove the thermostat & pour in about a quart of the liquid. The solution gets in the cracks and turns to glass, sealing the cracks. In your case, I would then drain the oil and change it. In my engine I wasn't getting water in the oil. I was leaking water outside of the block from the cracks. You buy this stuff from a drug store. Not all of them handle it so I'd call around to find it. You might find it in a pharmacy that advertises "compounding". Certainly someone else on this forum has used it. Look around on the net and you're bound to see some articles on it. In your case I'd look for people with experience with the glass and when to remove it so it won't contaminate your oil to the point of doing damage. Good Luck! packratc
I googled it using "Sodium Silicate in cars" and got all sorts of sites. Don't confuse it with destroying engines for Cash for Clunkers when they replaced the oil in engines with the glass to lock up the engines. You want yours in the radiator. Packratc
Did my homework on the "sodium silicate". Thanks packratc. Been thinking about it all, I'm thinking I'm going put all your guys ideas together and see how many more hours I can squeeze out of her. Gonna pressure wash the block (in frame with crank) real good and focus on the cracks. Gotta get the cracks as clean as I can. I'll try to squirt some acetone through them as well. Blow it out and let it dry good. Then pack the cracks that I can see with some epoxy like shopguy said. Put her back together and then "glass" it. The epoxy will get the major stuff and the "glass" will fill what I don't get with the epoxy. What do you guys think? (that sodium silicate is some scary stuff. Sure don't want to get to much in and gotta flush it back out.)
Quick question guys......should I be able to see holes in my injectors? There still in the head that I took off. They stick out proud of the head and I hope I didn't mess them up dragging the head around when I removed it. I was not aware and it was heavy and awkward getting it off and out. (notice the erosion around one of them) How can I test them?
I took mine to a rebuild place. They bench test them. It only takes a couple of minutes. Didn't charge me for that but sold me two rebuilt ones for about $100 apiece. They put on new rubber seals and, I think, gave me new copper washers for them all. It's been a while and I've had the shuttle apart three times since then. My memory fades with each 100 bill that leaves my billfold. I would guess that the corrosion around the injector was caused by water in the cylinder. Good Luck! Packratc
Here is a place to get a new one for $45.00 http://www.abilenemachine.com/case-david-brown-tractors-injector-AMA140829.html But don't take my word for it. Make sure it is the correct one for your 188.
So does anyone know where I might find a Case G188D block? I should probably start a new thread with just that question hey?
This company has seven different salvage yards. I have purchased from them and had good transactions. You can put in a parts request. Here is a link. https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/default.asp
Thanks Tinkerer...I just put in a parts request. Cant wait to see what they come back with.
Yea I had an engine with coolant in oil ,and I pulled the oil pan, pressurized the cooling system alitle , and found the coolant leaking around the sleve and block at lower oring.I just serviced that one cylinder, that was 8 years ago, still going strong
Remove injectors,crank engine over for a few seconds, check for coolant coming out of injector bores, if head gasket is your problem coolant will be coming out of at least one of the bores. If not you could remove the oil pan fill cooling system and pressurize the cooling system with 8 or ten lbs and look under to see which cylinder is leaking or somewhere els the coolant is coming from.