Hello everyone. First post on this site although it has helped me just reading threads in the past. I don’t have much experience with tractor/loader/backhoes but I have a new to me Case 580C. One of the issues it had when I picked it up was no brakes. I decided to start looking at it today and pulled the plugs on the top of both master cylinders. The right brake had some fluid in it. The left was bone dry. Both pedals go to the floor with no resistance. I’m trying to figure out my next step. I figured I would add some fluid to the left side and maybe try to get some eyes on the slave cylinders/ look for obvious leaks etc but if it would make More sense to replace the master cylinders and slave cylinders, I can do that too. Any advice would be appreciated. I think I have read there are some snowballing issues that can be found when dealing with the brakes. I think it had to deal with seals Thanks
Hi and welcome Probably the first thing to check are the brake housing seal and o-ring (part no. A39273 and G10347) and go from there. New brakes like to be oil free.
Thanks. Would you recommend pulling the floor plate to be able to work from above? I’ve read that can be helpful but also a lot to go through to get it off.
I believe your tractor is much like my 480C. The brake fluid side is much like a car, with the master, a fluid line, and a slave. It just has separate systems left and right. It's a real pain, but pulling the floor would make it much easier to work on. I left my floor out and used the backhoe for a couple of years like that, till I was confident I had it working. I just put it back in the other day but I took a torch and cut it in two pieces to make it easier to get out. Once you get the floor out, you can see what's going on. You can see the slaves, and when you put fluid in the master cylinders, you can see where it's leaking. The slaves are not that expensive, if you do not want to mess around with it like I did you can just put new ones on. And then they have to be bled, just putting fluid in the master usually will not give you any brakes since there is still air in the system. Once you get some brakes, you can also lube and free up all the pivot points and free up the parking brake system. See what you have after you do all the above. Hopefully you will not have to pull the brake housings off.
Thanks. I’ll see what it takes to get the floor up. What are you guys using for fluid? I thought I saw Dot3 somewhere but then I feel like I saw someone mention a different fluid in the comment section of a video I was watching.
Just use the same brake fluid as you put in your vehicles. You should be able to find the bleeders on the slave cylinders. Hopefully they are not stuck. If you think you might break them off, use a propane torch and heat them up really good and then see if they break loose. This is the easiest piece of machinery I have had to bleed the brakes when you have the floor out. You put fluid in the master, open the bleeder with one hand while you push the brake pedal with the other hand.
Get used to using the bucket to stop would be my 1st recommendation. My grandfather had (2) in his grading business during my formative years. My youngest uncle’s first “think fast” moment for my 5 year old self was for him to jump out of the seat and leave me to stop the 580C. 2 years later my eldest uncle allowed my 7 year old self prove to me that I could in fact not operate the other 580C nearly as well as he did loading spreader trucks. Considering he is my senior by by 24 years, & has always been the absolute smoothest on any piece of equipment he’s ever climbed on or ever been around,( I can attest to that even more-so being a Construction Superintendent now& having been working out in the “real world” for the last 20 years), I wouldn’t exactly contend that to be a fair comparison. Seriously though, until J.I. went to “wet brakes” on the later series machines, you’ll only have brakes for a minutes with Full new brake job.
Hey guys thanks for your input thus far. I pulled both brake housings off. The left side seemed dry. The right side definitely has a leaky seal. I had a hard time figuring where the pedal was in the cab to lock the differential and then I realized why. The linkage was either cut or sheared off right where it enters the brake housing previous to my ownership. I would assume that’s a nice feature and wondering how hard it would be to find a replacement linkage. The other issue I’m having is freeing up the flexible brake on the left side from the hard line. It looks like the flexible lines are available but the hard lines I can’t find so far. I figure I could get some lines and bend them myself if need be. Or just cut it back a little and reflare it with a new fitting. Obviously I will need to replace the seal on the right side just wondering if it would make sense to do the left side since it’s open. Broken tractor has a nice set with seals, brakes, lines, slaves, masters etc. It’s $915 which I could get just not sure if all of that needs to be replaced. I guess if I did go that route I would be starting with all new parts and not chasing an issue down the road.
It is common to disable differential locks to prevent damage to the differential when it engaged and the tractor is turned on hard surface.
I wish you good fortune. I hope my post did not come off as being smart or condescending, it was just how my family addressed this issue on these machines. That was always the running joke on their jobs or when we were using these machines.
As mentioned, taking out the seat and the floor is a big pain but the good part is that you now have access to fix so many things: - brakes slave cylinders, bleeding - ebrake, cable, linkage, adjustments - wiring and contact switches for lots of things - the floor itself if it’s rusted I changed the wiring so that the horn button in the cab turns on the backup horn which is much louder than my regular horn which is almost dead.
Thanks. I did end up pulling the floor. It actually wasn’t too bad. I decided to start removing the brake plate while I wait for some parts to be delivered. Glad I did because that screw that holds them on is a bear. I may try some heat to break it loose. The right side one got a little chewed up from the screw driver I was trying to use. I tried to drill it and use an easy out but that didn’t work too well either. I ordered what I’m hoping is a large screw driver impact attachment. The description has the blade 5/8” long and the thickness at 3/32. Hoping that will fit the left side better. The right side housing had two bolts up top and two studs at the bottom. The left side has only one stud at the bottom. I thought from the videos I’ve been watching there should only be one stud. I may hit them with some heat and try to remove them as well. I’m thinking the brake plate will come off a little easier if they weren’t in the way. They look to be a little seized on there.
Even with the floor out of the way, working on the brakes for me at least wasn’t easy. Everything is upside down and backwards and you have to reach down for everything so you’re either standing outside and leaning into the cab or sitting on a board in the cab and reaching down to the axle area. Bolts on the slave cylinders and brake linkages are hard to see and encrusted w crud, once you do see the bolt, the space for a wrench is tiny. It’s the kind of job that is so slow the first time around but much easier with a little experience. I’d suggest you clean and de-crud the area as much as you possibly can, it made it easily for me. A previous commenter said he left the floor out for two years after he finished the repairs, just to make sure everything was working correctly. I totally understand that.
do you know if your brakes are the same on a model D or not. thanks
Don't know if you've got the parts manual, but if you do consult page 148 for the transaxle parts. Direct your attention to part #20 A146027, it is a small seal that lives inside the R.S. side gear #18 to seal the cross shaft #15 that runs thru for the diff lock assy. Is quite possible that may be the source of the right side leak and should be changed before ruining new components.
You can take a propane torch and heat the flare nut really well and then try to get it loose. On the transaxle oil seals, be careful with this. There are a couple of threads on here where they talk about replacing them. I did not have to replace mine, but remember reading most importantly, if you are replacing them only do one side at a time. If you do both sides at the same time, something gets out of wack and its difficult to get back together. Do not remember any of the details, but it's in a thread in here somewhere. Once you get your oil leak fixed, the hydraulic parts of the brakes are no different than a car or truck. The brake puck itself is a little weird. The brake band grabs the outside of the puck and stops it, but the center spline keeps turning the guts of the puck and it has little balls with ramps that expand the sides of the puck and it drags on the transaxle housing and the large cover you took off.
I’m not sure about the D but I feel like they might be the same as the B.
Thanks. I just ordered that #20 seal from broken tractor and I’m hoping to use a ground down 90° pick to pull it out without opening up the differential. I also found a good online source for some brake packs that came with the backing plate oil seals, o-rings, brake bands, master and slave cylinders, flexible brake lines and today I pulled the old brake lines and ran new 1/4” NiCopp brake lines. I also measured and ordered some springs for the adjusters even tho from what I’ve read, I shouldnt expect too much out of the adjusters. Still having trouble getting the large slotted screw out of the backing plate. I’m going to hit them with a torch next and if that doesn’t work possibly weld a nut to its face so I can use a socket to hopefully break it loose. The flat head screw driver attachment that fit on an impact gun that I ordered sheared half of the screw face off on the left side so that didn’t work as well as I had hoped.
If the picks don't work, you can try a thin drywall screw to pierce the seal and pull it out with pliers. The fine thread screws are a smaller diameter and make the task a little easier. Make sure when you're reinstalling to drive the seal in straight as possible, they're not that beefy and will distort easily. Good Luck.
Just a quick update. I got the new master cylinders installed and made the connections with my new lines. I’m not sure if the brackets that fit around the master cylinders were bent a little but it was a bear getting them back in place with the middle bracket and then to get the king bolts through. My buddy stopped over with his welder and after a few attempts we were able to get a nut welded on the face of the stripped screw that holds the brake backing plate on. Both screws were backed out and I removed the left side backing plate. I left the right side on for now because I think I remember reading that you shouldn’t take both sides off at the same time. I replaced O-ring and the oil seal and tried to put the backing plate back on. I got it to about 1/2” from fully seating but having a hard time getting it the rest of the way. I bought some new bolts to install when I put the brake housings back on but I also bought some shorter bolts of the same size and pitch to hopefully use to draw the backing plate in tight. Is that common for the backing plate to be a little difficult to get back in place? I tried wiggling the splined shaft while tapping the plate with a mallet to see if I could get everything lined up.
Shot in the dark without being there, but you may find the distance of travel needed to seat the left carrier plate is the same distance from the o-ring to the inner face of the plate. Is your new o-ring the same size as old one? Was it lubed enough to squeeze into the hole? If you were heating and beating did you distort the opening. Was there any damage to new o-ring after failed install? Make sure the hole in the housing is deburred and free of obstruction. You can probably draw plate in with bolts, but it needs to go in straight without tearing the o-ring. If it won't go in with REASONABLE pressure stop and reassess, you don't want to crack anything by forcing. Just some stuff to look at.
That’s good advice. The oring came with the brake packs, band and seals so I’m assuming it’s the same size. It fits well and a little more snug than the old one coming off. I can pull the plate back off to get a better look and make sure the new seal didn’t get damaged while trying to get it in place.
Didn't know it was already seated. If you think it drew in ok I wouldn't pull it off again,that's a crapshoot. You could just fill er up for a couple of days to check for leaks.
Not completely drawn in. I haven’t used the shorter bolts on it yet to suck it in. I was kind of waiting on another oil seal since I distorted the first one I tried to put on.
Protect the new seal when installing by wrapping the side gear splines with packing tape or the like and lube the crap out of it. Don't tape more than you can remove after install. You can also prevent the little tension spring from coming out by applying a little grease to the seal lip. What about the large shims on the side cover, lined up correctly?
Had some time to work on the brakes today. I got the left side backing plate snuggled up and removed the right side plate. I replaced the oring but the seal still looked like it was in really good shape so I decided to leave it for now. It seems like the design of the backing plate is to keep the gear oil in by way of the oring and the shaft seal. But it also seems like there is a cavity in the backing plate with a weep hole to allow any oil that should get passed the axle seal to drain out the bottom without fouling the brake housing. I feel like I hadn’t read that anywhere before if that’s the case. I made sure I cleaned the weep holes and the channels out really well. I also have the small oil seal that goes between the axles on the right side but I decided to hold off on that one as well. After reinstalling the right side backing plate I drained any remaining gear oil from the transaxle and refilled with 5 fresh gallons. Lifted the rear wheels up and started the backhoe. I would say I ran it for about 10 minutes varying from forward to reverse a few times and didn’t see any signs of leaking so I think I’m good. So I installed both brake packs, housings and finished flaring the new brake lines. All I need to do now is fill the masters and bleed the brakes and hopefully it will stop as well as it did when it was first built.
My 480c is the only brake system I have ever bled by myself, using one hand to push the pedal with the other operating the bleeder on the wheel cylinder. That is, with the floor out of it.
I wrapped up the brake project (I think). I had a really hard time getting the right brake master cylinder to start flowing fluid. Not sure if it should have been bench bled before installing. The left side seemed to bleed fine. I ended up removing the right side master and used the rod to press in as far I could and fluid started to finally flow out of the outlet. Not sure if those two bolts are hard for everyone to get realigned with that bracket that sits between the two master cylinders but mine was a bear to get back together. I’m not sure if have the self adjusters dialed in quite right. When I use the right wheel brake pedal the wheel stops nicely. When I use the brake pedal that pushes both pedals down I have good resistance but don’t feel like the machine stops as well. Is there a rule of thumb to getting the self adjusters initially set?
Hi guys, so is that seal you are talking about most likely the problem if I have the left master cylinder empty with no visible signs of leaking? thanks in advance
An empty master is usually diagnosed by looking for leaks inside your dash where the masters live or follow the lines down to the flexible brake hoses connected to the slave cylinders and the slaves themselves. If no leaks visible, fill empty master and press the pedal you should hear something "hissing" from fluid or air escaping or an actual leak. If unsure put a piece of cardboard under machine for easier detection. Only seals you have to worry about are probably the master and slave cylinder seals.
Thanks stinky, so would the slave seal be a visible leak as well as the master? thanks
Should be, look underneath left side of machine at top of brake housing. Slave cylinder is bolted to bottom of brake lever that actuates the brakes, and brake hose is attached to the slave. If master is empty should see something. If not, refill and follow directions above.
Thanks stinky, i put some brake fluid in the master and once the temp gets above 5, i will go out and check the level and search for the leak if the master is empty.
Upon checking the master cylinder, I found that the where the boot meets the master cylinder was wet and dripping. A repair kit is around 40 dollars ( it says the individual parts are not sold separately), a new master is around $50 and a complete set of slave and master for both sides is around $100. not concerned about the cost, but my question is, is it a lot more work to replace both sides,( slave and masters) , or just the one master cylinder that is leaking? Thanks guys
One of the first jobs I did when got my machine was to replace both masters. One was full of sludge, the other, rusty dust. Later ended up replacing both slaves as well because two strong new parts up top blew out two old parts below. Live and learn. Also replaced both flexible brake lines while doing latter operation. You can source aftermarket flex lines from like a 76 Malibu from parts store. Don't remember exactly, there's a thread here that covers the whole brake line thing, just be sure to read entire thread because wrong part # is given first then the correct one. Will look for a receipt or old parts box later when I go down to shop, it's been a while. As far as rebuilding old masters/slaves it's a crapshoot, even if you can source new parts, bores may be smoked even after honing. Those parts are cheap enough, just replace and be done. Just my opinion. When I first acquired my machine didn't know any better, stopped at the dealer and ordered 3 seal kits, 2 masters and some o-rings, my first "Case" of OEM sticker shock. Learned about the google tube and aftermarket parts shortly thereafter. Some applications require dealer parts but 50 year old machine not always so. Should also add that when I did the brake repairs had the floor pan removed for extensive metal repairs so was easy to access everything. If you just need to replace one master and can access slave bleeder screw and get it loose, that may work till it gets warmer outside. Your call.
Thanks Stinky, i did change a brake hose in the summer with the floor out and it was an easy fix and bleed.I might order the full set, replace the leaking master now and when it warms up, do the others. I know its more resourceful doing it all at once but this time of year it is not fun. Warm weather makes the job more pleasant and a lot less time consuming. thanks for the input.....