Hello all, I'm new here and I've been exploring the forums quite a bit on my issue. I bought a case 580 backhoe from a local about a month ago who had the motor rebuilt about a year and half ago. With a new hour meter there is only 500 hours on the machine. I was getting milky oil and thought it was the open stack I had, so I went out and bought a rain flap. When I changed the oil a second time I saw green coolant. I removed the valve cover and pressurized the new radiator and to my surprise I didn't see any leaks. Many people suggest to check the freeze plugs, which are fine. I dropped the oil pan and I don't see any leaks around the sleeves. The engine is a 207D CASE, I do have a restored 4bt sitting in my engine stand but I would like to fix this motor. Few questions.. is there anywhere else I should be looking? I was hoping to remove the injectors but it looks like you need a special tool to do that, unless a flat edge would work to pry them out? My thought is.. if the coolant is getting past the head and resting on the piston, I should be able to blow that out through the injector port? The other thing.. The motor doesn't burn white smoke which leads me to believe it isn't the head. Also, the radiator is new.. I notice when it's warm it becomes under pressure where if you hold the cap with a rag it blows the coolant out. Not enough to go by the blow off though so I assume this is normal? In any case it probably needs to be torn back down. Is there a way for it to leak from the water pump into the timing case and down into the pan? Some more questions, with the head off do the pistons come straight out? I was thinking I could remove the connecting rod cap and push the piston/rod up and out? I was reading somewhere on here that a gentleman used some flat aluminum, hammered that against the wet sleeves from the bottom of the pan to push/drive the sleeve out. I'm open to options, I started to dig our basement and I was not expecting this. I didn't pay much for the machine (4K) so I'm open to putting 1K in if I have to.
how long did you leave the pressure tester on for? I have had to leave one on for hrs on a cold engine before a litte drop showwed up somewhere on a liner
About half hour. I only ran the machine three hours and had about a quart of water in it. I called the guy that did the work and he just put new liners in this engine last year. When I got the machine there was just massive amount of water in the oil. I wonder if it froze and ruined everything.
ouch I bet the rods and mains are getting some nasty marks on them from that, if it is a belt drive water pump I think you can rule that out(I think ) I'm not familier with these engines at all Mostly cats and other truck engines , It sounds like something serious let go for sure cuasing that much leakage. I hope someone with more knowledge on this engine chimes in to help you soon . good luck and keep us posted on what is found out. I sure hope it wasnt a frozen engine causing this mess for you
That doesn't sound like a frozen cracked block. I'd expect a frozen block to leak out and overheat very quickly. Sounds like you have some pressure in the radiator, is that when the engine is cold and first started up? or when it's been worked a while and hot? In the three hours did the engine run cool or overheat? You should be able to let it idle for a few minutes from hot, and then be able to release the pressure on the radiator cap and remove it and see churning coolant, not coolant bubbling over. It's worth a head gasket at this point. And run water until you know that it holds, glycol is bad for bearings and oil. Maybe have the head checked while it's off?
Did you have the valve covers off when you pressure tested it ? Put a good dose of food coloring in the radiator water. Leave the pressure on it for no less than 2 hours if it will hold pressure.
Okay,so I pressure tested again and I saw a little coolant coming from what looked like the sleeve. I decided to take the head off and when I did, I notice coolant in there. The sleeves are way to new for it to leak there I think, is there another test I can do with the head off?
Remove the head gasket and clean the top of the block real good and then check the liner protrusion height. All the liners should be the same. If you rotate the crankshaft for any reason with the head off, clamp those liners down with some bolts and flat washers or you will have liners coming up with the pistons. It may be time now to get the head magnafluxed by a competent head rebuilder. The head is most likely your problem.
Thanks, I think so too.. this block and head are perfect. It was machined and the cross hatching is still on the cylinder walls from the machine shop. My theory it.. if the sleeves are indeed bad.. I will have coolant in the pan come tomorrow morning. Right now I can see coolant around the sleeves but nothing in the pan. Also, on the head gasket itself and the head.. you can see where it leaked. It all happen on the thing parts of the cast iron block.
you should lightly clamp the liners down anyways before you check protrusion , if you end up seeing coolant at sleeve in the crankcase it could just be a sleeve seal if thats the case i would reseal all of them hopefully its just a headgasket
The head gasket is made by fel-pro, who does case use? I've heard bad things about fel-pro gaskets in the cummins world.
if that case engine is a cummins go to cummins I think case parts are branded CNH or something like that
The 207 is a Case engine, almost exactly the same as the 188D, just a bigger crank throw and displacement. The block is slightly different to allow for the bigger crank. You should be able to get quality gaskets from any decent engine rebuilder. My overhaul gaskets for the 188D are from Victor Reinz. CNH is Case New Holland and the successor to Case.
Since the sleeves are new, should I get some flat stock aluminum and tap from the bottom out? I would think they would come out easy. I think Phil was the one that did this on his engine. I could probably fab up a puller, it would take much longer to construct though.
Yes that is all you need. Sleeves coming out because you are getting coolant in the oil pan ?
Yeah, seems like it keeps dripping. The engine is drained, removed the oil pan and cleaned up all the surfaces. Each morning I go out and remove the oil plug I get a cup of coolant. I think it's coming from the sleeves. I took compressed air and blew the coolant out from each sleeve. After four hours it looked clean still. Have not checked it today, will tonight when I get back from work.
Did you reinstall the oil pan ?? Coolant in the oil pan with the head off ? Is that what you are describing ?
Yes sir!
Can you post some pic's of the top of the block without the head gasket on between 1 and 2, 2 and 3, 3 and 4 cylinders. We would do the hand pump on the cooling system with the valve cover/ oil pan removed and pumped up tight to be sure of a good look at the lower end. I would pull the pistons and liners since the head is off. You can never tell what you will find. You can use a old hammer handle (hardwood) cut about 20" to knock them up. I would number your sleeves and mark the position to the bore. Look at the top deck good and also the lower bore where the o rings seal in the lower bore. It's very little work to check and only a set of o rings and you know what you have. Sleeve height is .002-.006, block core at sleeve lip 4.550-4.555, below lip 4.336-4.338, lower bore 4.2760-4.2780. Will be interesting what the machine shop finds. Yes there is a special little puller for the injectors, however most use two small lady foot pry bars and gently work them up and out.
Thanks Shep, I ordered O-rings.. everything will be here Thursday. Stay Tuned!
Well, pulled one sleeve out and these were never replaced. There are so many pits and corrosion on the sleeve I had a heck of a time getting them out. Can some one guide me to a decent rebuild kit? Serial number is 288350 for my 207D motor.
I'm sure some of us would like to see a picture of the sleeve you pulled . Sounds like it wasn't actually overhualed then maybe was just resealed
Dale Wiess is as good as they get for your parts. Give him a call. I have purchased overhaul kits from him. They are very good quality kits. http://e-backhoeparts.com/contact_us
I will second Tinkerer's recommendation for Dale. I have been very happy with his great service and parts that I have ordered from him. Its nice to be able to do business with someone who knows what we are talking about and can offer advice and the parts required to fix it right. I can get Case and CNH parts locally, but the counter guys have no idea what I am looking for and even less interest in my project. For me, even with the shipping to Canada and exchange, Dale stll has the local Big Case dealer beat hands down.
Late to the party but liner O rings is what I had to do to mine. To answer a question upthread. The case head gasket I bought had Fel Pro stamped on it.
Here is some pictures for you all! I'll give Dave a call, I would like to do this right so this thing out lives me. I should have took pictures of the bearings, there is a small amount of copper like material starting to show.. but there is a lot of material there.
Notice in the third picture the o-ring is twisted, coolant was leaking from there. You can tell by the clean mark. Sorry, this iPhone 5 camera has been acting up since I upgraded.. now pictures come out bad.
Wow I would question the integrity of said guy that did the engine work and or the owner that sold it to you. Ay least when your done you will know what you have and if you sell it later on you can truthfully say it was overhualed.i f you have copper showing you be best off doing rods and mains while you are there and check rod bushing on piston end if it has them
Yeah, you just never know I guess. Wrist pin bushing looks great, I'm getting the main bearings new wrist pins, pistons, rings, sleeves and then gaskets. Looking to be about $700.
The sleeve is showing a classic example of using anti-freeze beyond it's useful life. The pitting could be a cavitation situation. It would be wise to have a competent head rebuilder check the head. If the valve guides and valve stems are worn much you will still have blowby out the crankcase vent. After you put the O rings on the liners an extremely thin coating of black RTV on them is an excellent lubricant for them.
Yeah, getting it magnaflux for a couple bucks. I was thinking engine building grease all over the sleeves before I install them. That way the O-rings don't rotate... should I put rtv on the o-rings for a better seal?
NO grease anywhere. Just a thin and I mean thin coating on the O rings and that part of the sleeve AFTER the O rings are installed in their grooves. I have never had an O ring ring roll or get damaged using this method. Be sure cylinder block is spot less at the top and bottom where the sleeves contact it. Clamp the liners tightly and check the protrusion on the deck before you install the piston assemblies.
Im with Tinkerer and Juskatla when it comes to Dale you wont regret dealing with him not only can he get new but also used and his wealth of knowledge is awesome he is the type who truly cares about his customers and will take great care of your needs.......
Should I replace the crank bearings? Maybe I need to pull this engine. If I can do it while the motor is in the frame.. I'm all ears.
Yes, absolutely replace them. Can you get someone that knows how to check the all the journals for size ? Look at the old bearings for a marking like, STD or .002 . I would do it inframe unless you need the crankshaft reground or polished. Does the driveline have a clutch or just a fwd. and reverse lever ? I am not high-jacking Bannerd's thread but here is a little information about Dale. He used to own a Case dealership for many years. He closed it when he supposedly retired. He is now selling his leftover inventory and an endless amount of high quality aftermarket parts. He can still get Case OEM parts whenever there is a need to. He is the only person that could help me figure out, that before I owned my Case 680 someone had installed the the wrong pinion drive on the starting motor (wrong number of teeth). I never would have found that out if it weren't for Dale remembering a similar situation he encountered years ago. Because of that Dale got to sell me a second new ring gear.
Yes, called Dale and we're getting this thing going! Great guy, Thanks all for pointing me to the right path.
Be sure to lubricate the o rings well. I did sleeves in a tractor engine a few years ago and was cautioned by the very experienced mechanic/dealer to use lots of lubricant. The o rings are such a tight fit that when you are installing them they may curl up and out of the groove or distort. That fellow recommended vasaline, which I used, 200 hrs on it since rebuild. At the time I had used vasaline for sex, smeared it on the doorknob of the bedroom to keep the kids out!
I have never found anything slipperier than silicone sealants. Black RTV is the only kind that should be used where petroleum products come in contact with it. In regards to LOTS of lubricant on the sleeves prior to installing them, all the excess that gets wiped off by the block will be in the water jacket.
An engine builder I talked with told me to use hand/dishwashing soap with a small amount of water added. palmolive or whatever. I coated them before I installed them on the liner and then wiped some more on after installing. Been a couple years now and no issues.
The condition of the liner oring sealing area in the block is very important. There is usually pitting & grooves where the orings sit. Make sure you you have a good look there & address any problem area. :drinkup PS - I use rubber grease on liner seals during install + be certain to measure the liner protrusion to ensure proper head gasket/ fire ring cylinder sealing. :thumbsup
Moving along with the build. Does the small pinhole on the rod face towards the cam?
Dish soap is bad for steel if you use a liquid soap it should be Murphys oil soap that is what most tire mount lube is just thicker.
I am not sure on a 207. But,quite often (most of the time) there is an arrow on the piston top that should be pointing to the front of the engine when it is installed. Also it is very important that the piston is mounted on the connecting rod correctly. The rod also has a forward and backward orientation to the crankshaft. DO Not proceed until Sheepfoot, Melben ,Alrman or one of the other experts can give you that information. A set of steel number stamps and a lot of pictures would save people a lot of grief if they use them BEFORE a teardown.
Numbers on con rod go together & face towards camshaft. As Tinkerer said, arrow on piston towards front. This is critical part of engine assembly & should have been checked during disassembly rofessor
Okay, so this is what i found out. My rods have no numbers on them at all. I know what hole the pistons came out of but nothing on the rod. After talking to dale and looking more at the rod there is a pin hole on the rod. You want this on the up stroke so that it lubes the sleeve and piston skirt. Take note here;
Here is where im at, time to work on the head.
Looks real good Bannerd. You should run a thread over those studs in the block and clean up the holes in the block with a tap. Unless you already have done that.
Well all, got the head back and installed everything today. This is what she sounds like, no smoke from the stack, smoke from the crank breather. Let me know what you all think; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaNgxT-YsZA I heard a chatter, sounds like the valve train? I found some 207 videos on youtube and it sounds the same. I have this for break in, ten minutes no load 1000rpm, another 10 minutes at 1800rpm, no load, 2/3 throttle some load at 30 minutes, one hour load at 1 hour. New Radiator, some more new parts (kin pins, master seal kit) but for now I need to break this motor in.
Hey looks and sounds good, Just wanted to remind you that there is a bolt on the rocker arm rear that has a drilled hole in it that feeds and lubes the valve train. So if the valve cover is on and you did not check for upper lube you may want to visit that area again. You more than likely checked it and good to go.
Remove the valve cover, start it up and see if you can pinpoint where its coming from. Appears to be valve guide related. It didn't look like there is any pressure coming from the crankcase when you removed the dipstick. You did stagger the piston ring gaps to specs didn't you ?
Yep, rings are all staggered. I have a massive compression now. Black chunks blew from the exhaust at start up. Oil does come out of the filler, just a spray. I took the valve cover off while it was running and there is oil all over everything. Yes, my service manual said bolt to the rear or front depending on machine serial number. Mine was at the rear. I etch the hole so it points towards the front.
Guess i can take the pan off, re-torque everything again and see what is up. Maybe im paranoid! I know a guy that has a 580, maybe ill swing over there and have a listen. Revs good and there is plenty of power. Oil level is up and coolant is good.
Well, started the engine this morning and checked everything. Oil pressure is 75PSI, all fluids were up accept for the rad (air bubbles). The noise has something to do with my fan, is there a bearing in it that should be greased or replaced? I didn't find a grease opening for it, after putting pb blaster inside of it the noise changed. The pump and bearing is $120 which is a bit much if the bearing can be pressed out. I ended up taking a screw driver and listening to each cylinder location, everything sounds the same. My manual says after 20 hours, changed the oil and re-tighten the head bolts and bottom end. I ended up spraying the head gasket with copper; Boy does that stuff stink when it heats up.
You defiantly know what you are doing Brannerd. That is about right for the water pump price. Some of them have a tapered bearing in them and that contributes to the high price. Air bubbles in the radiator is never a good thing. I would suggest doing a good long pressure test on the radiator again. I am still leaning towards a head problem with that much blow-by and air bubbles in the radiator.
Well, the air bubbles are from me filling the radiator up. It seems like the cooling system takes quite a bit of coolant (I have a heater). I already ran the engine 20 hours @ 1000rpm, did an oil change and no more coolant My next question is, what does the transmission take for fluid? I see Case TCH and it looks like people are dumping regular hydraulic fluid in the bin? Do I check the fluid with the backhoe running? I posted about this before, when I'm working on hills I have to wait for something to build pressure (letting off throttle) before I can hit the throttle again. Unless the fluid tilts and starves the pump. My tractor is hydrostatic.
Your machine should be a power shuttle, and the dipstick should be at the starter area. The fluid needs to be a trans /converter/hyd lube or a spec close to it, I would not use a straight hyd fluid. You check it with the engine running in neutral. Your system holds around 8 quarts. If you machine is a hydrostatic it would be a rare, rare, rare machine. I had never see one after the B series and would only think it came from the trencher line if so. A pick of the pedals on the floor would clearly confirm if you truly have a hydrostatic trans in your 580C.
Thanks, yeah, power shuttle is what I have. The last guy used 303 Super in there. I'm going to drain it, pop the pan off and clean everything up. I was looking at getting the below... what do you think? http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/mystik-jt-5-trans-hydraulic-fluid-2-gal?cm_vc=-10005 Or traveler has some.
The thing with the TCH type fluids, it allows less stock to keep for the owner. The fluid can be used in your power steering, main hyd system and your power shuttle. A good 303 oil will work as long at it meets or exceeds the case tch spec. The biggest problem you have with these fluids is if your machine had wet brakes, and some trans clutch disc's that needed the extra additives that prolong life and keep the linings attached to the plates it could get expensive real fast. I would call and ask if it meets the spec and go from there, I have not used that brand before but have customs that buy pallets of oil when they have sales and have not had any issues.