I have a Case 580D that I pulled in front of the garage to change the parking brake cable. Completed that task, and then the machine wouldn’t start. Turns over, puffs black smoke, just won’t fire up. So far, I have checked the fuel shutoff solenoid which I removed and verified with 12v that it does cycle. The mechanism the solenoid operates moves freely. And the check valve on the injector return line is not blocked. It actually will allow compressed air to flow in both directions. Anyone have any ideas? This machine ran great, and always started right up with a touch of the key. Now, it’s a huge paperweight. Thank you.
is it turning over fast enough? fast as it usually does? check the hydraulic control handles to make sure they're all in the center position. "puffs black smoke" sound like it's getting fuel at least to one cylinder, but not catching the others, or too much load on all the cylinders, or? does it sound significantly different cranking than it used to? how about check the air filter and intake hose to see if something collapsed?
Delmer, thanks for the reply. Interesting that you bring up "turning over fast enough". I wondered if it was also and put a new starter on when this situation began. The new starter "seemed" like it was turning the engine over faster, but it still wouldn't fire. I will check to see if the hydraulic controls are all in the neutral position, as I made the assumption that they were but have really not checked. It "seems like" it cranks over like it used to, but honestly it never really cranked for that long, it always just fired up after a second of cranking. I removed the air filter and knocked the dust off of it, inspected the air intake system and everything seemed in order. When I get back to the machine today I will check all the hyd levers and hopefully that will be the culprit. Thanks again.
U said u can blow air thru the overflow valve in both directions.. That’s not how they work.. They’re 1 way check valves.. The return LINE might b clogged.? Remove the valve completely from the pump and try to start it..
thepumpguysc, I totally agree and thought why would you even need this part. I'll need to dig out some fittings to delete the valve and hook it up to see how it responds. Thank you.
It’s up to you.. but it’ll only take a second.. If it starts, THEN u can start swapping fittings.. Good luck
If it starts, u can shut it down immediately.. Next, follow the return line up to the “T” where it hooks into the injector return and take it apart there.. blow-out that removed line with compressed air.. Look INTO the fitting AT THE INJECTOR.. The bits from the pump WILL gather there.. and cause the engine to shut down at intermediate times.. While your at the machine, get the numbers off the name plate..
thepumpguysc: will do, thank you.
Turbo charged or naturally aspirated engine ? Check and or clean all four battery cable connections. Have you tried putting jumper cables on the battery ? It should crank for quite a few minutes before the battery dies. Less than 2 or 3 hundred rpms an you will have starting problems. 580D with an electric shut off ??
Tinkerer; It turns over pretty fast. Faster than with the old starter. 580D with elec fuel shutoff. Non-turbo. Yes, hooked up another 12v vehicle to it(running) and tried that for a bit. Thank you
If I remember correctly the 580's up to 580k has quick couplers to hoe under rear of tractor for removing hoe .May one became disconnected?could get hyd pressure gauge on it and see if for hi pressure when cranking but crane speed for be very slow?
You stated that you took the shut-off solenoid off of the pump and checked it. That is good. With the solenoid on the pump, did you check for a continuous 12v at the solenoid, while you are turning the engine over ? Is the turbo charger spinning freely ? Not likely the problem but it could be part of the reason for black smoke and no start.
I have not checked for 12 continuous volts at the solenoid yet. worked with it about all day and even though I had 2 batteries hooked up, at one point my truck was providing 12v direct to the starter, it began to turn over slower and slower. Even while keeping the battery charged 100%. I’m starting to believe that one of the Hyd valves is stuck and loading the engine as some have suggested. the loader valve has stuck in the past, and I may have bumped it more than you would using the loader while working on the parking brake. I guess just crack the lines to see which one is under pressure? thank you
I have a video of it cranking and not starting the other day. It was turning over fast and puffing black smoke. Nothing like that today.
The plot thickens... no smoke today??? can you post the video? youtube and link it here. This is not a simple issue, doesn't add up so far, hence all the questions. And conflicting, make that VARIED suggestions.
I have a mechanic coming out later this week to fix it. I will post the conclusion. No black smoke today, but the engine is turning over obviously too slow to start. If anyone wants a video of it cranking emailed to them let me know. I’m not tech savvy enough to post/link them. Thank you.
Videos cannot be posted directly on HEF. They have be uploaded to a video hosting website like uTube. Then, copy the url of it and paste here in a reply and the video will be viewable here. It wouldn't surprise me if the hydraulic pump is your problem. You could take the filter off and cut it open and look for nasty stuff.
Ok, I'm going to try to post some videos. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1239218953478322 https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1427668154395019 Thx
Which is it.. a K or C.?? Or a CK Is it a CAV /Delphi pump or RoosaMaster /Stanadyne..?? My instructions for running w/o return connector is for a RoosaMaster/Stanadyne pump.!!
The 2nd video sounds damn good..!! Have u tried moving the pump timing a smidge.??
Pumpguysc; it’s a 580D with a Stanadyne pump on a case 207D. I tried to rotate the pump but it would not budge. Not sure if that’s how you adjust the timing or not. Thx
But… I can’t get it to turn that fast now. Even with 2 batteries hooked up to it. It turns one or two revolutions and acts like the battery is dead. No difference if you hook another battery direct to the starter. Maybe I burned out the starter.?
That's classic hydraulics loading up, or other load on the engine. Turn the engine by hand, with the key off, grab the belt and fan and turn the engine a bit at a time, it won't be that hard if you can get a grip. Then crank it a second till it slows down, then see how much harder it is to turn.
I can not turn the engine by the fan belt.
Did you loosen 3 bolts, or nuts ? Look behind the pump. Sometimes crap gets between it and the block and will block it from turning. I found a bolt behind one once, couldn't hardly see it. It was close to starting in the video. There may be an injection pump / timing problem. I just read your post.---- If it was in my shop I would split the pump drive and try to start it. I said before the hydraulic pump my be the problem. IMHO of course.
The starter will barely turn the engine at this point.
It doesn't surprise me. Not trying to be a know it all.
I can’t figure out why a timing issue would crop up on an engine that was running perfectly when it was parked. I need to figure out why it will barely turn over at this point. Even if I were to adjust the timing, it barely will turn over two revolutions before it bogs down. however, is that how you adjust the timing? By rotating the pump?
How do I unload the hydraulics or troubleshoot to see if Hyd loading is the issue?
Tinkerer: all help is welcome. I’m stumped that it would turn over well but not start, and now it acts like the starter or battery is dead.
Welcome and much appreciated!
Rotating the pump slightly will change the timing. Unload the hydraulic lock ? If nothing is trying to move when it cranks slowly. I don't know on a 580D. Depending on how long it has cooled off you use an infrared thermometer on the pump body. I suspect it is quite warm. I would still be curious as to what may be in the hydraulic filter.
You would need to cut it open and unfold the pleats to see what if anything is in it.
I put a new Hyd filter on it last month. The Hyd filter warning light came on in the dash. No warning lights since I changed it. I really want to disconnect the Hyd pump from the engine but not sure what’s involved with that. Haven’t looked at how the pump is connected.
I suppose loosening the pressure hose at the pump would take the pressure off.
You should be able to turn the engine over by hand. Move some hydraulic levers, heck, hold the loader bucket tilt to the extend then retract while cranking, maybe crank the steering wheel if that's the same hydraulic system, don't know?
Those two levers on the left side of steering wheel are not standard - what do they do? They look like they are not in the same position (neutral) as one is more forward than the other?? Is there any other hydraulic modifications to this machine? - electric diverters? Are the backhoe controls joystick or foot swing? Could the foot swing pedal be stuck? Anything to do with unbolting the hydraulic pump from the engine will be a challenge with the loader frame in that position.... but not impossible.
Woosterdelt; , you could do that. It will be a mess ! I don't see how that would help tho.
Good observation alrman ! I didn't see them.
Those are control cables that used to go to a post driver. They are not hydraulic valves. No hydraulic lines are connected to those two levers.
Opening the pressure line at the pump would unload the pump which may be bogging down the engine. Releasing the Hyd load on the pump from a spool that is stuck open.
No other Hyd mods. I have not checked the foot pedal for the extendahoe now that you mention it. I will need to check that Tuesday which is the next time I’ll be down at the farm.
If the engine is bogged down from a Hyd load and will not turn over, wouldn’t cracking the lines on the loader or backhoe reveal which a circuit was holding pressure? the loader joystick did stick in the past. Maybe I leaned against it replacing that parking brake cable and have one of the spools stuck past it’s usual travel distance.?
I'm thinking the pressure is not going to hold for long enough to find it after the engine has stopped turning? You'll be able to track if the steering is connected to the same hydraulic pump, otherwise the loader bucket tilt has very little load and would release the pressure if the hydraulics are building pressure.
Alright, the mechanic has not made his way over yet. I was wondering if the starter I put on has been burned out as the engine turns over very slowly now. I removed the starter and took it to a starter rebuild shop. While I was there I showed the guys in the shop the two videos that I posted here. They noticed a stutter in the revolutions, and theorized that I could have a fuel injector stuck open. This would be flooding one cylinder with fuel, leading to a fuel buildup in one cylinder and then a sort of hydro-lock in that cylinder leading to the engine being difficult for the starter to turn over. They also said that this may cause a "steal" of fuel from the other injectors. Their idea was to take the injectors out and spin the engine with the starter to blow out the fuel, replace the injectors with new ones, and try to restart. There is a equipment salvage yard nearby that might have new injectors. Does this theory and plan make any sense?
Entirely possible that the starter is burned out. if you have the starter out, turn the flywheel with a prybar against the ring gear, it should turn easy that way, and it shouldn't turn fast enough to build compression much, so there will be little resistance and will go away quickly. Were these starter rebuild guys under 30? and did they know what engine and fuel injection pump you're talking about? Sounds like they thought you had common rail? it would take forever to fill a cylinder with this injection pump.
Yes, under 30. and yes, I can turn the engine by the fan belt and the ring gear.
Well, looking at the injection pump and injectors now, I guess that explanation doesn’t make a lot of sense.
The 207 engines should spin over easily to start IF the battery is 100%, the cables aren't corroded internally, with a new starter. Have you checked voltage at the battery and starter while trying to start? That engine will never start if its cranking slow like that, its need decent cranking speed. If a hydraulic function was "stuck" out of neutral, something should be moving or bottomed out.
The slow cranking was my fault. I moved the ground to an area I could easily clean to bare metal. It evidently was not a good spot for a ground. It seems like it is getting fuel. I am starting to wonder if it is getting a spray of fuel from the injector or just a dribble that is winding up as black smoke. The machine ran so well, it is hard for me to believe that I park it to work on the brakes and bam, the injection pump gives out. I thought they went out gradually, like maybe hard to start for a bit. One more thing I am going to try is replacing the return check valve in the top of the pump. I'm not sure if a bad check valve would cause a crank but no-start condition. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1130299984565876
The cranking speed is good. The smoke indicates it's getting some fuel & burning it. I'm assuming the air filter is clean. I would be looking at removing the rocker cover & checking valve clearances/operation. The 207 has alloy rocker posts & they can fail. Check if pushrods are OK. If all that looks good, a compression test would be next on the list.
Put a guage in the hyd system and see if you are building pressure
The motor seems to be spinning quite fast for it to have a hydraulic pump putting a load on it. IMHO. I see the rain cap has been removed from the air cleaner intake pipe. Did you give it a sniff of ether ?
No ether, had a hot air gun on low setting blowing some warm air in the intake while cranking. there is no Hyd load on the engine. I am about to assume it’s the injection pump but having a hard time reconciling black smoke and a bad pump.
I would recommend you try what alrman suggested before doing anything with the ip.
Pulled the valve cover. Every intact and in motion when cranking.
Compression test next ?
This was an engine that always started within a second of hitting the ignition. Never needed a whiff of ether to start. I’m having a hard time believing that the pump is bad let alone the compression. I simply shut it off in the driveway, atraumatically. No stalling it out under load. Nothing out of the ordinary. So what in the world would have gone haywire while it was sitting idle? How does an injection pump or engine compression go instantaneously bad? It makes no sense. I would think that it would have shown some signs of getting weak or hard to start before just failing to fire.
How about checking the injection timing, and confirming the valve closing coincides with TDC? We're in voodoo land here, and that's as easy a check as any other, like compression.
I don’t mean to sound difficult, but how would the timing have changed? what I really need to do is hook up my remote starter leads so I can watch things at the engine more closely while cranking. Problem is, the starter that is on there has a guard over the ignition wires and I can not get the remote to clamp on there. When I get the original case starter back from the rebuild shop I can swap out starters and use the remote. How much pressure should the pump generate where the injection line exits the pump? Enough to push a finger off the opening? What I am thinking is getting an idea of whether the pump is generating enough pressure. Regarding the compression test…I’ve never done that on a diesel. I attempted to remove an injector the other day but decided I was in over my head. I have not looked in the manual yet but I am assuming there is an injector puller needed?
this solenoid seems to be cracked. I ordered another to replace it.
A key or pin would have to shear to change the timing. Stranger things have happened. A worn injection pump that is not producing enough pressure will result in a no start when hot, then start fine when cool and the diesel is thicker. If it's pumping visible volume, then the pressure is probably fine, as indicated by the black smoke. We're way past easy suggestions. This would be a good place to get a second set of experienced eyes to look at the machine, or keep trying something new.
It is not unusual for strange things to happen when a motor is running ok-- until it is shut off and attempted to be restarted. Be sure there is a continuous 12 volts going to the solenoid after you install the new one. Attach a voltmeter to the post on it.
Things tried today: remove intake hose from intake and try to start, run continuous 12V wire from battery to the fuel shutoff solenoid while trying to start. No success. I am awaiting a mechanic to have the availability to come out. Harvest time is a bad time to have a piece of equipment go down. I appreciate everyone's help.
If your ip is a Stanadyne/RoosaMaster, remove all the fittings from the top cover to where your left w a hole in the cover.. and try to start it.. AT FULL THROTTLE.. It’s gonna make a mess in the drive way w fuel coming out of the hole so be prepared for that..
I’ll give that a try after work today.
Took out the check valve from the top of the pump leaving an open hole in the top cap. Turned over at full throttle. No start.
Was at least able to use the starter to raise the loader from blocking access to the engine. Safety catch in place on the lift cylinder.
Have you loosened any of the lines at the injectors to see how much fuel is being delivered to them ? And if the fuel has air bubbles in it. Good flow of fuel coming out of the filters ?
Tinkerer, So, I cracked an injector line at the pump to check for what type of fuel pulse is coming from the pump. The engine started on 3 cyl. Re-connected the line, and the tractor starts easy without any cranking. Why? I’m happy it started, but don’t understand what happened. Concerned it’ll happen again.
I put a new check valve in after I tried to start it with nothing in the top cap of the pump like “thepumpguysc” suggested. But tried to start it when I put it all back together with no luck. Try it an hour later after taking a line off at the pump and bam it starts. Makes no sense. Intermittent failing fuel shutoff solenoid?
I’ve seen this before but on a Cummins engine.. The injector/injectors were/was stuck open and the compression was blowing back up thru the injector. So if you just happen to open the same injector time after time and it starts every time.. I’d hafta say u found the faulty injector.(?)
Injectors tough to replace in a Case 207D?
No. Loosen the nuts on the injectors ,and see if any air is trapped in the lines going to them. You have to either be turning the motor with the starter or while it is running while doing that. Loosening the lines on the pump will never solve an air in fuel problem.
Well, it runs great now. Is the consensus diagnosis a failing injector(s)? I’m afraid to move it away from the garage until I figure out what happened. Easier to work on it there than back in the leanto on the pole building. I keep starting it expecting it to just crank again. Any special brand of injectors I should look for?
Just have yours rebuilt
Lol.. u might just had air trapped in the lines between the pump and injectors... if it ran good before, u should be ok now.. unless the insides are coming apart and clogging the return connector.. Happy trails..
How much fuel was in the tank when this first happened ? There could be air getting in the supply line somewhere. That is why in my last post I explained where to bleed any air out of the system.
I forgot to ask you if you have or need the service manual. I have it if you need it. FREE for the asking. !
Tank was 1/2 full. My father suggested that I put more fuel in the tank since the driveway slopes down and the front wheels were slightly higher than the rear. I put 5 more gallons in the tank but it made no difference. Tinkerer: I have all the manuals, and thank you. OTC makes an injector puller. There are similar types that say they are for JD pencil inj that look the same. Will the JD puller work on the Case pencil injectors? Thanks all. This has been an education!
The puller should work
Yes the puller will work.. I think OTC has it cheaper.?? Just key in: Pencil Injector Puller
Where do I get the rubber seals that go between the return line fittings? Do they have a special name so I can buy a pack on Amazon? Thx
Most people in a fuel shop call them return line “olives”..
Call Dale Wiess. His family owned 3 Case dealerships until they retired. He is still selling parts both OEM and aftermarket. He is human encyclopedia of anything made by Case. http://e-backhoeparts.com
Spray them down with blaster and turn back and fourth to loosen them up while pulling up