I have an old 580K Phase 3 that has some serious blowby issues. Everything I know about backhoes I've learned in the last 4 months since I bought it, so please be gentle. I only use it to do landscaping projects on a couple acres I own. From what I gather, the most probable issue is bad piston rings that are causing the crankcase to become pressurized. The blowby is putting out oil and oil also comes out the dipstick tube sometimes. I'm pretty sure getting this done at a shop is out of my budget, so I wanted to tackle this myself. The only thread I could find mentions that none of the rebuild kits come with sleeves ( HeavyEquipmentForums ). But that was posted back in 2015. Every kit I've found comes with sleeves. I'm hoping this is a change and these kits come with sleeves and piston heads that are a bit smaller so they're designed to go in the cylinder without boring. Could that be the case? I feel comfortable with most of the process (as far as I understand) but don't know about boring the cylinder. I don't really know how I would go about it, or if I even trust myself to do it. Any information and advice about fixing the issue and replacing the piston rings would be greatly appreciated. If I'm completely off-base with what I'm thinking, I'd appreciate any help putting me in the right direction.
No, there are no sleeves on that engine. Didn't you pick that up from the other thread? How about a picture of the blowby tube and where ever else oil is coming out? How does it start in the cold? how does it run? how much oil does it use per tank of fuel, or per 100 hours, or how many hours per gallon of oil? One more question, is there an air filter in place? and have you checked the air intake for dust?
Thanks. Yes, I did see in that post that there are no sleeves, but then I keep finding kits for that engine with sleeves. Hence my question. I haven't had the backhoe in the cold yet, although the way things are going it'll be cold here soon. I'll take a picture when the sun comes back out. I've probably run the backhoe for a total of 40 hours since I got it, and I've put in 2 gallons of oil. So yeah, it's a lot. I just changed valve cover gaskets and replaced the gear box tachometer plug, which were both leaking. I don't see anywhere else oil is coming out of. The tachometer plug was pretty messed up and leaked quite a bit. It seems that now that that is fixed it's forcing more out the blowby tube. I could be imagining that though. I don't really have anything to compare it to, but it seems to run ok for something that old. It does put out a lot of smoke. The smoke is white.
Sorry, I missed one of your questions. There is an air filter. I haven't checked its condition. I'll do that tomorrow.
The sleeves listings are just a standard rebuild kit template, there are no sleeves sold in a standard kit for those. There may be machinists who will sleeve a block like that, but you don't need to do that, this is a common engine that doesn't have a bad reputation. Find another one if it's that bad. is the white smoke at idle or under load? if it's at idle, is it uniform or puffy white and puffy other color? When I said check for dirt, I meant between the air filter and the engine, meaning what leaked by the air filter to destroy the engine. Forgot, does this have a turbo? that opens lots more possibilities. Also, cummins has a pressure test to measure the engines condition. lots of things to look at before tearing it apart.
Ok, that makes sense on the sleeves. Thanks. I'll check between the filter and engine. It is the 4T-390 Engine. The white smoke is at idle and under load, I believe. I'll run it when I get home from work tomorrow and pay more attention to the uniformity. I have watched for black and blue smoke before and as far as I could tell it was always white or grey. Nothing I'd call black. I'll double check all these things though tomorrow. I haven't known what to pay attention to. Thanks. I really appreciate the help.
BEFORE u start it.. check the oil level.. is it low.?? is it real hi.?? is it thin?? it almost sounds like u lost the front seal in the inj. pump & its pumping fuel into your oil & its getting ontop of the pistons..?? How about the coolant level.?? Check THAT BEFORE u start the engine also.. IF your handy w/ a wrench.. get it puffing & loosen a steel line that goes to the injector, 1 @ atime & watch the smoke.. if no diff. tighten the line back up & move on to the others.. IF u find 1 that clears up the smoke.. u might just have an injector problem.?? OR.. THAT cylinder is bad.
Thanks, thepumpguysc. The oil level and coolant unfortunately won't tell me much right now. I just had the radiator fixed and I just put it back in. Had a crack in it. So it's all topped off. The oil was pretty low and I just topped it off yesterday as I tested it after putting the radiator back and fixing some other gasket leaks. It did do it's smoking and oil coming out of the vent thing after I topped it off. I just changed valve cover gaskets and tachometer plug, as those were leaking (valve cover just a bit, tachometer plug was broken so it leaked a bunch). I'll do the injector test when I get home from work. Thank you very much!
I don't have time to check the air filter area right now, but here's what I did/found out. 1) oil and antifreeze were at proper levels (as I said before this was expected and doesn't help much) 2) In checking the fuel lines I discovered that two were a tad loose and there was fuel dripping. The guy I bought it from said he just changed the fuel pump and it looks new. Apparently it wasn't tightened all the way. It actually idles a tad nicer. I loosened them one at a time and couldn't tell much difference on the smoke or the blowby. Each time I loosened one, the engine did get weaker, so I'm guessing that's a good sign that all 4 cylinders are doing something at least. 3) I looked at the injectors and at least one of them is actually leaking. I hope that's a good sign that's the problem. I couldn't see two of them and don't have the time to get all messy in there right now. Could this be it?!?! 4) I think I was wrong about oil coming out the blowby tube. The dipstick is pretty loose and oil pushed it out and it started gushing. I think the blowby tube just helped it spread all over, so I thought it was coming from there. I guess I need a new dipstick or something. It seems to stop if I hold it in, so it's not like really high pressure I don't think. However, I don't know if it should gush like that at all. 5) The white smoke was at idle and under load. It would burst some smoke when I hit the gas, but it seemed to be about the same when held steady as it was at idle. I took some video of the injector after the engine stopped. I'm not sure how it turned out. It looks like it's letting some bubbles out too. I also took video to show how much blowby there is. https://www.dropbox.com/s/9j6fgij1wma4qzu/Video_1.MOV?dl=0 https://www.dropbox.com/s/slxenndphph8djb/Video.MOV?dl=0
2) yes that's a good sign 3) not likely 4) with that much blowby, there's probably some coming out the blowby vent also. the dipstick should not leak much oil even if it's taken out running. Some will splatter more than others, and if the oil level is too high, it will be messy. but the video shows a lot of blowby 5) does the smoke smell like raw diesel? or hot vaporized oil? hopefully not sweet? maybe the turbo is shot, that would explain the engine running reasonably well, blowby, and white smoke from oil running into the exhaust. Does it smoke white right from the start? or does it have to warm up a minute before it starts smoking white? Or maybe it blows a little white smoke for a few seconds then smooths out and cleans up for a minute, then starts smoking white again?
I'll need to fire it up again to smell it. Possibly can get back to it later tonight. It does smoke white right from the get go. Then it's pretty consistent I think. I'll double check when I get back to it. Thanks!
With that much blow-by I would be doing a compression check on all cylinders. It's a wonder the dipstick stays in the tube.
I had a chance to fiddle around more this morning. Definitely harder to start when it's cold. It was only around 40-45F degrees. It would start up and then die as soon as I let go of the key, which hadn't happened before (I've only worked in the afternoon in the summer so far). It doesn't seem to be smoking as much now. Maybe because the fuel lines are tight? At idle and at steady load the smoking is the same. When I hit the gas I get a burst of smoke. I'm not very good at detecting smells. As far as I can tell it smells like diesel smoke. Not burning. I don't think it's a raw diesel smell or sweet. The blowby and exhaust smoke both start immediately when I turn the key. It doesn't need to warm up at all. I let it warm up and the smoke was consistent the whole time. It's definitely putting out A LOT of oil from the blow by tube. More than I ever realized. Maybe it's because the oil is topped off to where it should be and I was probably looking at it before when it was much lower so not as much was coming out. With the RPMs up a bit oil is dripping off the frame from getting so much oil blown on it. I checked the air filters/housing and everything was pretty clean and tight in there.
I just read up a bit on the turbo charger and how it should be primed and such after sitting. My guess is that never happened before I got it based on the general condition, and I haven't done it since. With the oil leaking, there's a very good chance the turbo hadn't been getting enough oil for years I bet. Do I just open it up and look at it? Is there some way to test? Thanks again for all the help!
With that much blow-by I would be doing a compression check on all cylinders.
A compression test is valuable info. The easy info is to open up the turbocharger and look. Take the air intake off, usually a hose clamp and wiggle the hose off, the fins should be equal, not broken, not rubbing the housing, spin freely, no oil visible in the intake side. There will be play in the bearing, but we're mostly looking for major oil leaks at this point. The exhaust is harder to take off because everything is probably rusty and stuck. You can look into the exhaust, or just wipe your finger, probably black sludge on the inside of the pipe. The other thing to check is that the oil drain tube is not plugged, could even try starting it with the tube off, it will leak oil but there shouldn't be much blowby coming out the bottom of the turbo, the big drain tube, not the oil pressure supply tube. I've never heard of priming a turbo, the only thing I've ever heard is to let it idle to even out the temps a couple minutes if it's been working hard before shutting down.
Thanks. I should have mentioned I'll do a compression test. It's a bit of an ordeal for me to get it to a shop though. So I'll keep looking at things I can first. Thanks for the advice. I'll take a look at the turbo as you explained. Thank you. I found the info about priming the turbo on a service manual posted on the Minnpar.com site. https://www.dropbox.com/s/nwh3jkljp5o5udi/Screen Shot 2019-10-03 at 3.13.09 PM.png?dl=0
U can do a compr. test yourself if u have the proper tools.. Harbor freight has a kit for around 150.00 & you'll def. need an injector puller..OTC.?? BUT I'm think'n.. if its not the turbo, just resign yourself to an engine o/h.. THATS ahellofva lota smoke.. If it were mine, I'd run it till it wouldn't run/start anymore..
Thanks. I'll take a look at the turbo after work today. With that much smoke, if it needs an overhaul, I'm guessing it's not just changing piston rings, huh? I think I could do it if it's just that. Harbor Freight probably doesn't sell a cylinder boring machine for $150...
If the cylinder wall taper is within specs all you have to do is remove the ridge at the top of each cylinder and deglaze the cylinders. A simple job of new piston rings, bearings, gasket set and the head worked on by a competent machinist.
Good news I hope. Meaning a cheaper fix. I took the intake side of the turbo off. I could immediately see oil in the edge of the hose. I stuck my finger in the turbo and swiped around and my rubber glove just got coated in oil. I didn't take the hose off enough for me to look inside, but feeling the fins they felt intact and it seemed to spin freely. I'm hoping all the oil in there is a sign this could be the real problem. I didn't check the exhaust side or the drain, hoping this is enough to tell me the turbo is shot.
Typically the turbo will separate with the exhaust section staying attached to the exhaust manifold and muffler, and the intake side coming off. Remove the oil supply line and plug it, then remove the drain. Then start it up and see if it smokes the same as it did before. If it still smokes, you can fab a little sheet metal circle to cover the exhaust side, and run it under load on a clean road to warm it up and see if the blowby is still bad, and the smoke clears up any.
Thanks, Delmer! Just to make sure I'm doing the right thing, is the oil inlet/outlet piece on the intake or exhaust side? Meaning, should I be separating at the green or the red arrow. Looks like there are bolts on both sides.
Actually, now that I look at a parts diagram I'm guessing it's the red arrow and I'm pulling the blades (part #4) out of the housing to separate the pieces. Is that right?
Never mind, taking that apart might be more than you want to mess with, some are easier than that. You could still try this: With the turbo drain removed from the engine, you'll see if the blowby is coming from the engine or turbo. Then decide if you want to remove the turbo (at the red line) to check if the smoke goes away.
Ok, I'll do that. Thanks. Hopefully I'll have time tomorrow, but it might be a couple days now before I can jump back into it. I really appreciate the help.
Well, the blowby reduced a bit with the turbo drain tube off, but still a significant amount coming out. I couldn't let it run very long because it was losing quite a bit of oil out the drain. I was able to arrange to have a shop pick up the backhoe tomorrow to take it in for a compression test, and a quote on a rebuild. Thanks for all the help. We'll see what they say.
Well, just got the news. Not good, but not surprising. Two cylinders are very low PSI. I think he said like 100-120. They put oil in the cylinder to test again (I guess that is to see if it's the rings) and it didn't change. I can't remember all he said, but it's not looking like it's the valves either. He hasn't put together the pricing yet for a rebuild. At what point is it cheaper/easier to track down a new engine? Or when do I throw in the towel? I just need this for projects around my yard (6+ acres) here and there.
I would normally pull the cylinder head & confirm the engine condition - a couple of hrs labour should pull that up. You will see the pistons, check for excessive piston slap, inspect the cylinder walls, head gasket etc, You'll have a better idea what you are dealing with. If the crankshaft is OK these engines are not super expensive to repair. - bore to oversize & new pistons & bearings.
Thanks. That's good to hear.
Well, it took a while, but got a quote back. They aren't really detailed on a line-by-line basis, but said worse case scenario is $13000 if everything needed to be replaced. Crankshaft and all. They'd be passing it on to an engine machine shop to do most of it it sounds like. I asked how much it'd be if it turns out just needing pistons replaced and he wasn't able to quote just that part. I asked how much it'd be to have him swap out an engine and he said $2100. So it'd be way less if I could find a refurbished engine for $4k or so. That might be the best way to go, huh? If I have them keep digging in to see if it could just be pistons, then it isn't, I'd end up having to have them swap the engine anyway. Of course, by then it's already out. Or do I sell it for what I can get for it and start over looking for another old backhoe and hope it's better? Thanks!
Unfortunately, you can't get an accurate quote without stripping the engine & inspecting the components. $13k seems like a high end rebuild cost - including reconditioned injector pump & injectors; turbo; & new crankshaft ??? - these you can't really quote without a strip & inspect either. Likely, they won't warrant failures without the whole deal. Surely they can price the best case scenario as well? - reuse your crank (with polish or grind) check/grind/replace camshaft & grind followers - new pistons & bearings - rebore block & recondition cyl head? In a perfect world, without any budget costs that's OK, but if your only using the machine for your own property & your purse strings are tight....... you might need to advise them of this situation & ask they do the best they can with the repair- sensibly - without going all the way with fuel system & turbo etc? - & forego the warranty? If you can purchase a refurbished engine at $4-6k (long motor) there's no reason you can't have your's rebuilt for similar money - plus the cost of engine removal & install / fit up of your of all fuel system; turbo; manifolds etc I would be asking for more information & still be calling other repairers.
I was driving my 580k and put it in neutral to let it coast down a long hill and after 200 feet it locked up and both the rear tires will not move.it stalls the converter when I go into forward and reverse but will not move
Welcome to HEF @Clarence Berdett Heisler Can you confirm which type of transaxle your machine has? Does the 4 speed shift lever come from the RH dash? or the floor? It may be wise to start your own thread describing the problem again & giving the relevant information.
the shifter is on the right console
Oh..... I was afraid of that....... The pinion shaft on the phase 3 transaxle is oil lubricated. High load & temperature, such as going down a hill with minimum oil flow for lube & cooling (engine idling) will mean that 4th gear has welded/seized itself to the pinion shaft. When you are engaging any gear other than 4th - you have engaged 2 gears simultaneously - thus locking up the drive into full stall. Raise the rear wheels off the ground, engage 4th, even neutral, you should have drive. Unfortunately, you won't be able to drive in any other gear. You will need to remove & strip the transaxle to repair this - hopefully you can salvage the pinion shaft.
how can I get it loose from the pinion shaft
can I take the transaxle apart without taking the whole unit off the backhoe