I purchased a Case 580SN recently and find that when I select forward or reverse on the shuttle lever the machine will move quite quickly unless I hold the brakes. The transmission also engages fairly hard - not a soft engagement. The idle rpm is 1000 rpm - the manual says 900 to 1000 is the correct idle rpm. I havent tried yet but plan to lower the idle to 900 and see if that is any better. Is there any other adjustments to do ?
Is this in first gear? My Case 580 SE, when it’s in first gear moves immediately but slow, so I have to brake it a lot of the time. In second gear, it moves more with the throttle.
I will have to try it in 2nd gear. I had a 580SM before I got this one and in first gear it would creep a little on level ground but not nearly as much as this one and it was a much softer engagement when shifting into forward or reverse. I think the idle speed was less than 1000 rpm
I tried it tonight in both 2nd and 3rd gear on a level area on my driveway- hard packed stone. In both 2nd and 3rd the backhoe would start to move at a fast walk when put in forward at 1000 rpm idle.
I was going to try lowering the idle speed a little today but I cant find how to do it in the operating or service manual. Mine doesnt have the old style cable setup - it has an electronic throttle with a wiring harness from the foot throttle and a rotary knob on the rear panel for setting speed when using the backhoe.
Update - I figured out that the idle speed is set through the menu on the instrument cluster screen. It can be set from 975 rpm minimum to 1100 rpm max. It was already set at 975 so can't go any lower.
I used the backhoe for more than a few minutes today for the first time. It is a 90 degree day and I was leveling 40 tons of crushed stone to make a new parking area. Was pushing stone for over half an hour in first gear with 4WD on. Transmission temperature gauge got up to about halfway in the green. Idle was at 975 rpm which is the minimum setting in the control panel. Whenever I shifted from forward to reverse or reverse to forward at idle it shifts pretty hard. If I don't hold the brakes on you can feel and hear the drivetrain clunk" quite hard and it starts to move right away.- if I hold the brakes on there is less of a clunk but still feels like a hard shift. Seems like this would be hard on the drivetrain. When I bought the backhoe the previous owner said he had someone change all the fluids about 40 hours ago. I am wondering if maybe they used a higher viscosity oil in the transmission and that is causing the hard shifting. Appreciate if anyone has any thoughts on that or any suggestions on what else to look at.
Thinking about it further I am not sure if a higher or lower viscosity hydraulic transmission fluid would change how hard it shifts. My first thought was higher viscosity fluid would cause hard shift but now I'm wondering if lower viscosity fluid would cause a quicker shift because the fluid would mover through the ports in valve quicker and result in full engagement of the clutch pack in less time. Any thoughts on that anyone ?
I have a 580SL and the F-R shift is quit smooth. This is due to the ‘time delay relay’ found in the fuse box area. It gives several seconds delay and then engages the gear. I suspect it releases the converter pressure temporarily, similar to the trans disengagement button on the loader handle. If the relay fails or is removed the machine will not move. I’m told that not all SL models have the time delay relay feature. Maybe your relay circuit has a malfunction or wasn’t equipped with one. My relay failed and the machine wouldn’t move. I can see how someone might bypass it in a pinch.
Thanks for the suggestions, I checked the wiring diagrams and I dont see a time delay relay in the circuit. The blowup of the power shuttle valve body shows the forward and reverse solenoids and refers to an inner and outer modulation piston. Not sure but maybe the modulation pistons are what controls whether the engagement is hard or soft but I havent found anything that says it is adjustable. Also it isnt just how hard the shuttle engages - once it is in forward or reverse in 1st or second gear I have to step on the brakes to keep the machine from moving - have to brake much harder to keep it from moving than I did with my 580SM. If I dont brake it will start to move fairly fast, even on a hill. Maybe the torque converter is not slipping as much as it should at idle and causes the hard shift as well as the movement if the brakes are not held on.
My 580 Super N is I believe 2014 Model year. They had several choices of transmission. I believe mine is the "Power Shift" it is a conventional four speed transmission, controlled by a VERY complex hydraulic system. Mine has a torque converter. I'll guess they want the engine turning fast to reduce fouling the particulate filter, (mine does not use DEF). I hold the stop button while shifting & that is how I shift forward & reverse. I hold the brake until I feel the pressure.
Of course the throttle is controlled by the ECM. Are there any fault codes showing on dash?
Thanks for the comments Willie B and Coy - Mine is a 2015 - transmission is a 4 speed manual with a hydraulic actuated forward reverse shuttle and torque converter. The manual refers this as a "Power Shuttle" and the hydraulic controlled transmission as a "Power Shift". Mine does not have DEF. My first thought was to reduce the idle rpm but as Coy mentions it is controlled by the ECM and can not be lowered below 975 rpm. There are no fault codes showing on the instrument display. The blow up of the shuttle valve in the service manual shows a modulation section with an inner and outer piston and several springs. It does not show that it can be adjusted. I suppose if a spring was broken or weak it could allow the valve to shift quicker and harder. Attached is a blowup of the power shuttle valve from the service manual. Even if there is a problem with the modulation valve I am not sure why the machine tries to move so hard once forward or reverse is selected. In 1st and 2nd gear I have to keep the brakes pressed fairly hard to keep if from moving. That would seem to be more related to the amount of slippage in the torque converter at idle. With my previous Super L and Super M very light pressure on the brake pedal would stop any movement. I do the same as Willie B suggests - I hold the brake on until I feel the engagement. That minimizes the shock to the drivetrain compared to shifting between forward and reverse with no brake applied.
Replace the timer relay that controls the shifting. Look where the relays are there should be one that is tall and slender kind of like a flasher relay.
OK thanks I will have a look
I was refering to the cut out button on the loader control & the brake pedal(s). I only shift while the cut out button is depressed.
Yes I tried pressing the cutout button while shifting from forward to reverse or reverse to forward while holding brake on - no difference in feel when the shuttle engages than just shifting at a full stop with the F-N-R shift lever while holding the brake brake on. From the wiring diagrams the cutout button de-energizes the same relay as shifting into neutral with the F-N-R lever and releasing the button energizes that same relay allowing the forward or reverse relays to work. Not sure why using the cutout button would have a different result than shifting to neutral and waiting a few seconds before shifting into forward or reverse The manual indicates the cutout button is used when shifting the 4 speed gear transmission and also to increase rims to lift the front end loader faster without moving the shifter to neutral.
Maybe what you experience is different from my machine. Mine is sudden, and when doing delicate work I have to suppress the sudden motion with the brake. Mine doesn't seem excessively jerky. I've had two 580 K, both behaved about the same. I did have a John Deere 410C, it was a lot more smooth starting to move, and I had to use the accellerator slightly to initiate movement. I interpret the difference as idle speed. The Case manual makes the point that carbon build up in the filters are a concern.
Thanks for the ffedback Willie B. I have only ever owned Case backhoes - started with a 580B in the 80's and worked my way up through C, D, E, K, L, M and now N. Even had a 580G somewhere in there with the side shift hoe. Never had one that the shuttle shift was as hard, (crisp, jerky, etc.) till the N and never had one that the machine would start to move as quickly when the brakes are released without any throttle even going up small hills fairly fast with no throttle. I was worried that there is something wrong but maybe just take getting used to the different feel when working with the loader. All my case hoes ones were 4 stick so I am also still getting used to the 2 stick with pilot controls as well.
I think you hit on a good point earlier in the thread, where you stated that the problem could be in the modulation valve. I'd go ahead and remove the trans control valve and check the modulation valve.
My son bought a 580B, It needed a lot of work. We used it a bit, but I did NOT like the three lever foot swing controls. One of my 580K was three lever foot swing. I didn't like it, converted it to joystick. Kind of a big job.
Thanks Coy- I probably will end up doing that. Before I do that the service manual has a procedure for checking oil pressure at several points on the transmission control valve at idle and at full rpm. That should help to narrow down if there is a problem if the pressures in any area are out of spec.
I guess it's all what you learn on and get used to. Ihave been using the 3 stick with foot swing for 40 years and really like it. I find I have better control and feel with the individual lever control of each function. With the 2 stick on an older machine where the linkage has worn I find its a lot harder to control the movement of 2 functions with 1 stick. So far with the pilot controls I don't find that as much of a problem. Just my experience but I know a lot of guys love the 2 stick and don't like other style
Just wondering why there is enough converter coupling to drive the machine at a fast walk idling in low or second gear, that does not sound like a shift modulation issue at all to me. modulation in the control valve is accomplished by an orifice in the plate and released by the ball and spring check valve, Coy, have you ever had a converter that could have that much internal drag? In all my years I have not, after the tranny clutches are locked up the modulation circuit is out of the system.
That torque converter question has puzzled me as well. I mentioned it in some of my comments and thats why i titled the original post "moves quickly when shuttle forward or reverse selescted" i wasnt sure if the hard shuttle shift and fast movement were 2 separate issues or same root cause. I suppose if the torque converter has high internal drag at idle rpm it could also cause the hard shift much like shifting into gear at a higher rpm than idle on any machine or vehicle.
Blue, have you checked or has anyone told you to check the converter stall speed, put the machine in 4 th gear forward shuttle , hold the brakes and floor the throttle and get a tach reading, hopefully the tach works, The stall speed reading should be at or near 2000 RPM. If it only goes up to 11-1200 you have a bad sprag in the TC. I have not read all the posts so maybe you have done this.
No I haven't tried that but I will - thanks for the suggestion
Hi melben. I checked the stall speed yesterday afternoon - let the engine warm up and then then did full throttle in 4th gear with the brakes on. RPM went up to a little over 1900 rpm initially and over about 15 increased up to 2000 rpm.
That would indicate that the sprag in the converter is good. What you have going on in my mind is a lot of converter drag, clutch modulation is an almost instantaneous operation, not a constant function. I have never seen a stuck modulation piston and I don't think that enters into this issue.
Thanks for the quick reply - what can cause excessive converter drag.