Cat 246c SN JAY00979 My Cat 246c will not turn over at all. If I turn the key to the on position, all of the normal lights come on, but if I continue to turn the key to the crank position nothing happens. The safety sensors on the seat and restraint arms seems to be working because the lights go off when I sit down and lower the arms. The battery is fully charged. I removed the back engine cover and alternator to get a look at the starter and I'm attaching a picture. There is power to the main battery connection to the starter. There is a single white wire from the wiring harness that is attached to the solenoid control connector on the starter. I was surprised that it is a single blade connector to a blade inside the starter connector. I was going to pull it off and check the voltage when the key is turned to the start position. If I get 12v, does that mean that the starter needs to be replaced? Also, unrelated to the starter, I noticed that there is a sensor on the engine block that I noted with a blue arrow in the picture that no longer has a wire attached to it. The blade connector is there and appears to have had a white wire attached at some point. Can anyone tell me what this sensor is? Can someone tell me the original part number for the starter for my serial number (JAY00979)? I'm having trouble finding the part number and the aftermarket starters that I'm seeing online seem to have the connectors on the opposite side than the one shown.
287-6181 is what the system shows. Actually a switch - for engine oil pressure. Do you have an electrical schematic.? If not, would you like one.? What exactly happened before the no crank situation.? An intermittent problem that got worse or just went south from one engine startup to the next.?
For a few days it would turn over for a half a second and stop before cranking. It would do this a couple times and then start. Yes. I would very much appreciate an electrical schematic. Thanks for your help. I will be at the machine this afternoon. Should I check the voltage to the white wire on the starter?
Check your message inbox for an electrical schematic. Sorry don't have the time to look at it in depth to determine the function of the white wire on the starter, but the schematic should tell you.
Thank you very much Nige. I'm also trying to find out the Cat engine model number for my serial number. I can't find anything for the starter part number that you listed and was hoping I could find something that claims to fit that specific engine.
Try searching for 145-0359. Other equivalents are 6V-0492, 235-4963, 569-3863, and 0R4316. The engine is a Cat C3.4, otherwise known as a Perkins 804D-33T.
Great. I found a site that has a replacement for OR4316 if I need it. Thanks again.
Might be worth while to voltage drop test your positive and negative cable as if the cable is on the way out , it could do as you posted. Had a Nissan Frontier truck today at a customer that I have with lots of tractors, that his truck would do nothing. I voltage drop tested his negative cable to the engine block and it recorded 10.5 volts of loss of potential. No wonder it wouldn't start. We hooked up one end of his black booster cable to engine block and other end of black cable to battery negative and the truck fired up instantly. Worth checking those cables before or you may have a problem even if you do change the starter. If you have never tested as such just say so and will explain how. Simon C
Correct me if I'm wrong Simon C, but the acceptable voltage drop on either the positive or negative battery cables is generally 0.5 volts or less. If the voltage drop is more than that, you will want to look to fix a poor connection (loose or corroded) or replace the cable.
Amidst all the issues of the no start condition don’t lose sight of the disconnected cable to the low oil pressure switch. As it is right now you have no monitor of low engine oil pressure.
Yes, I would appreciate any details on how to perform a voltage drop test. Right now, the voltage across the battery posts is 12.7V and the voltage from the main battery connection on the starter to the engine block is over 12.6V.
I'll definitely find the missing wire and get it hooked back up to the oil pressure switch before I'm finished. I found the wire in the schematic that you sent, but I haven't been able to find it in the machine yet.
From Positive post of Battery to Positive post of Solenoid and your 2 test leads hooked up exactly on those spots, you will get while flowing some current like lights and fans and holding the key switch in the crank position a maximum of 0.5 0.8 volts D.C. loss of potential. On the negative side with meter leads on the case of starter or engine block on clean steel and other lead on the dead center of Negative post of Battery while flowing current you should be less than 0.5 volts D.C. loss of potential. The truck I tested yesterday had a whopping 10.5 volt loss of potential, the dash would not light or anything. Fired right up with an improvised booster cable ground circuit. Any questions fire away. Simon C
Read post 14 above and ask questions if not sure. I wasn't born knowing this stuff. Simon C
So I checked the voltage from the white wire connection on the starter to a ground and got someone to try to crank it. I momentarily got a voltage reading of a little over 11V (I may not have been making a solid connection) and then nothing. After that, I never got a voltage reading again when trying to crank. I'm now getting the yellow exclamation warning light when I turn the key on. I wasn't getting it before. I was also hearing a small click at the starter when I tried to crank it before doing this, and now I'm getting nothing. I do not have a reader for reading Cat codes, and this machine has no display. Don't know how checking the voltage to the starter could be causing me to get a code now. I also tried doing a quick jump from the battery connection to the white wire connection on the starter, and I hear a short click sound but no starter engagement.
We need to know how much loss there is on a connection or cable when load is appied, Also how far down the battery goes when loaded, may need 2 people to do the test. Tested one battery for a client yesterday that dropped to 3.5 volts in 2 seconds. Junk! His new battery started the unit in 4 seconds and only dropped to 10.5 volts. Simon C
Thanks. I'll do some tests this afternoon.
Okay the starter should go if fed live power from battery to the Solenoid switching terminal. It could be the starter or a cable end that just died. Have seen before. Try some of the voltage drop tests or alternately use both ends of a booster cable black ends to make an alternate path from block or bolt on starter to battery negative. Could use Red ends of booster cable to go from battery Positive to solenoid Positive. More than 1 way to test. But with that hooked up, if the power to the White wire connection at solenoid drops out you would need to check the start relay. Start with this stuff first. Simon C
Thanks. I'll test with the jumper cables. I'm at a loss as to why the white wire to the starter suddenly has no power now and the flashing exclamation warning light is on. Does this indicate that there is a fault code? Is there any reliable third-party tool other than Cat ET that I can use to get and clear codes? Don't mind paying a few hundred for a reader, but I don't want to pay for the Cat ET subscription.
Once you have verified if the starter cranks with good cables or booster cables used as by-pass you will need to find out if you have clean power to the White wire at solenoid. I do not have the method to retrieve codes on " C " models, only on D models. You could have a relay problem or a signal to relay problem that is controlled by the engine ECM. I may have the schematic for this unit, have to check it over. Nige sent it to you. Start with the first tests and see what you find. Simon C
Sorry I did not respond sooner ThreeCW. You are correct that at 0.5 loss of potential, there is going to be starting and other control problems. On the ground side it seems to be worse especially on body or frame grounds that computers send power back to the battery, it is very important. From positive of battery to solenoid Positive on starter it can go to about maximum 0.7-0.8 D.C.volts loss of potential. Some start systems use smaller cables which equates to more loss than others. When you find 10.5 volts loss on the ground cable like I found yesterday, its a no brainer. Cable junk. Hope that helps. Any questions fire away. Simon C
Almost forgot that Nige posted in number 11 above of the need to fix the oil pressure wire. That would produce codes is my guess and what exactly the computer would do with no signal from it is maybe your problem. However the starter still has to crank something with live power to the Starter "S" terminal even without computer signal so start there after fixing the wire. Simon C
ET is not limited to dealers. Is there a local independent around your way that can hook up ET and do a scan for you.?
Can someone tell me if any of these relays in the fuse box is the starter relay? There are only three relays that are actually present - 1, 3, and 4 counting up from the bottom left. I drew arrows next to them. I'm not sure about the symbols.
The attached may be of some help. You should really get yourself an Operation & Maintenance Manual (Cat Publication reference SEBU8019), all this info and more besides is in it. See HERE
Thanks. I have the Service and Repair manual but it doesn't have higher level physical info like this. I'll definitely get the O&M manual today. I don't see anything like a starter relay listed though. There is an "ignition switch" fuse under the cab and it checked out okay. Are there other relays other than the ones in the main fuse panel?
Genuine OEM.? I assume not because a genuine OEM Service Manual would contain a copy of SEBU8019.
All you have to do is search the pdf of the schematic for the word "relay". It will pop up every hit.
I found the relay on the schematic. I just can't find it physically on the machine.
Did find how to get codes out of monitor on your machine from what I know. Would be good to check or print a copy and have in machine to refresh the memory. Simon C
I think you can click on the relay and find the location on the pictorial of the machine. I do not have that schematic but have many others. Nige supplied most of them. Simon C
You're right. I thought the diagram was just pointing to the starter, but I think it's pointing to a relay behind the starter.
Unfortunately, my machine doesn't seem to have this right-side screen. Must have been added later. Thanks for looking that up though.
If you're talking about #30 then the line from the number 30 doesn't go far enough. The relay is mounted on the flywheel housing just behind the starter. Actually your starter relay might have been moved. See the Service Mag article SEPD1234 attached.
Must be the heat and vibration causing problems for the relay. Good you knew about it. Simon C
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Thanks. I'm seeing the current version of their product out there for around $350. Still checking the reviews.
Thanks for finding this. It appears that mine is in the original location. I've detached it for testing and will reinstall it in the new location on the other side of the mount and rotated 90 degrees.
I haven't determined the electrical problem yet that is causing no power to be sent to the starter solenoid. That problem started only after I had been testing the starter. I hope it turns out to be the relay because I have another one of those. It does appear that my original problem is that the starter is bad. I can't even get it to engage if I run power directly from the battery to the starter power connection and solenoid. I'm also grounding directly to the battery. I'm at a standstill now because I can't remove the starter. I removed the three mounting nuts, the main power connection, and the solenoid wire. I'm now unable to break it free. I've tried breaking it free with a prybar with no luck. Are these things usually this difficult to break free? I don't want to damage the flywheel or anything. Any suggestions appreciated.
Probably need to hit the housing with a compothane hammer, to shake it up. If all the nuts are off it should pull straight out. or put a block of wood against it and hit the block of wood with a 4 lb hammer. It should just come out if you got the nuts off. Simon C
Don't forget to bench test it once off to save yourself more grief of installing a new one and no go. Many a mechanic has made that mistake. Simon C
Will do. I'll test the new one too before putting it on because it's a major pain getting those mounting nuts back on. It's a very cramped space.
Just wanted to post the final resolution of my problem for future reference. I was unable to remove the starter myself, but Jacob of Hyden's Heavy Equipment was able to come out and he was able to pry the old starter off with a large prybar and a lot more experience at removing stubborn parts. He installed the new starter and everything is working fine now. He applied anti-seize compound to the starter so maybe I can get it off if this one ever fails. So the problem turned out to be a bad starter and a bad starter relay. I think the relay went out while I was testing the starter because I was initially getting power from the relay to the starter solenoid, and then suddenly I wasn't. I bench-tested the old starter after removal and it was indeed bad and would never engage. Thank you Nige and Simon C for your help.
Nige, Anyway yo could send me the schematic for this machine as well
A machine Serial Number is the key to schematics. Too easy to get the wrong one.