Hey I have a cat 267b. Bought it a few months ago with an undercarriage that was shot, all the middle bogie wheels broken, sprockets and sprocket bearings were all worn out, etc. The engine ran great though, and from what I could see, all the fluids looked good. Fast forward a couple months, I finally got all the parts and got the undercarriage all squared away, went to check all the fluids, and noticed the coolant overflow bottle didn't have any coolant in it. I didn't think much of it, but then I went to check the oil, it looked a little cloudy and the level seemed to be above the max fill line. Today I went to change the oil and coolant, and when I drained the oil, it was a completely consistent light grey color, I've never seen that before. I am going to assume it is a coolant leak based on the coolant bottle being empty. I'm guessing that its a bad head gasket, but what should I do to verify it is in fact the head gasket? What else could it be? I was thinking of draining the oil and coolant, and then just running water and new oil for a couple minutes and then drain again, and put correct fluids and amounts in, to see if the coolant gets into the oil again, but that might not be worth it. A couple other things... ~ When I bought it, guy said it had a brand new bottom end 10 hours ago, crank, rods, pistons, bearings, etc. I have no receipts though. ~ When it rains, the engine bay seems to get very wet. I'm assuming this is normal, but it seems kinda wrong. Could rain be getting into the engine? Thanks for any help and directions!
Just scanning through the service manual, these have an engine oil cooler, could that have gone bad causing coolant to get in oil? Like I said it sounds like it runs good, no smoke or anything. Just a thought!
Eng oil pressure is higher than coolant pressure, when running. Alternately coolant pressure is higher than oil pressure when eng is warm and off. So its definitely a possible entry point. Same can be said for head gasket, leaking coolant into oil when eng warm and off. If Pistons were changed then head gasket was replaced. Hopefully head was pressure tested for cracks, another entry point. Head gasket can leak combustion gases into coolant, which sometimes can be seen after eng is warm and shut off, bubbles in overflow tank. Can also be detected with a CO2 sniffer. Would also lead to loss of coolant, and overheating. Not sure about the rain thing, unless your missing oil cap. Maybe previous owner can shed some light on exactly what was done and why
Thanks for the reply! One thing I did notice, looking through pictures from a few months ago when I first got it, there looks to have been enough coolant in the overflow bottle to fill halfway to the min fill line. That was back beginning of July I think. I haven't gotten it anywhere near operating temperature, probably not even enough to open the thermostat. The only times I've had it running in the past few months was to raise and lower the arms to raise and the whole machine to get the tracks on and off. That was probably the longest I had it running, 10 minutes going forward and backward a couple feet trying to guide the tracks on(that may have gotten it to temperature, not sure how long it would take at idle on one of these). So unless all the coolant got pressurized enough at that point to push into the oil system, I'm not sure... Could coolant leak into the oil system through the oil cooler, just sitting there cold for a few months? Also, I don't believe coolant is getting into the cylinder, because then you would have some sweet smelling, or sticky feeling, smoke coming out of the exhaust, and I don't see that. Unless the combustion pressure is too much, and it is just pressurizing the coolant system instead. I don't really want to start it up until I find out where the leak is. I plan on taking the oil cooler out and inspecting it tomorrow, if the weather is good. See if that bears any fruit... Thanks again!
Before starting to remove components maybe your best bet would be to try to get hold of a cooling system pressurising pump. The cap for that would fit on top of the coolant expansion bottle in place of the normal cap. With the system full of water up to normal level, pressurise it to about 10psi and see if it holds. Maybe you might be able to hear air leaking somewhere, or if you have the oil pan drain plug removed and water starts dripping from the hole that would confirm a leak. Additionally because that engine does not have “wet” cylinder liners the presence of water in the oil pan would indicate either a cylinder head or a cylinder head gasket problem.
Some assembly greases can mix with the oil and change the color a bit. If I were you, I would install fresh oil and an oil filter..........and top off the cooling system and run it for a bit. Look for a repeat of the problem and then troubleshoot from there.
For the amount of work and money involved, an SOS oil sample from Cat on the old oil will tell you if there's glycol in it or not. If you're too far away to stop into cat for a sample bottle, then I might try running water and changing the oil like you said, careful of overnight temps. You can pressurize the radiator with the overflow tube, the cap will usually allow fluid back in with extremely little pressure to suck coolant back from an overflow bottle, just don't use more than 10 PSI or so. If it's water from condensation, from running it cool for a few minutes at a time, that's not a big deal at all, the oil sample would tell you that and avoid even changing the oil, just run it. If it's glycol, that's very bad for the oil and bearings, and you want to be much more careful.
If there is oil in it right now I would agree. However if the oil pan is currently empty I would suggest to try the radiator pressurising pump idea first becausre all you need to do is remove the drain plug.
if its greyish and creamy its got coolant in it either residual from the past failure (as you mention there was engine work done or you have a problem is this fitted with a 3054 engine?
It has a 3044C according to the book.
Thanks for all the replies! Can you briefly explain not having wet liners indicating a head or head gasket problem? Wet liners means the cooling passage allows coolant to touch the liners? Thanks And yea 3044c
Wet liners are a removable liner that touches the water, and has o rings at the bottom for seals, so it could leak into the crankcase from the coolant through those seals, also the wet liners are thinner and more likely to corrode so could leak coolant that way.
Nige said that the 3044c does not have wet liners though.
Sorry, maybe I was a bit cryptic. The 3044C engine has NO cylinder liners at all, the pistons run direct in the cylinder block. The repair options for worn cylinder bores are either bore the engine oversize if the bore size has not reached the repair limit, or bore it oversize and install liners to bring the bore back to standard size if the diameter has not reached the service limit. So there is no possibility of coolant leaking between the cylinder liners and the block because the engine doesn't have liners. I am assuming here that the engine has never been bored oversize and linered back to standard in the past.
Ahhh I understand. With a bad head gasket, wouldn't coolant get into the cylinder causing some smoke to come out of the exhaust, or is it possible that it's only bad between an oil and coolant passage?
It's possible, which is why I suggested pressurising the cooling system and observe if anything comes out of the oil pan drain plug hole. If nothing comes out but the pressure in the system still falls then you know there is a leak somewhere, it's just a case of finding it..
3044 does not have wet liners it does however from memory.... it does have a oil cooler that is under the oil filter this would be one of the first things to check. After a pressure test assuming you still have coolant in it. tip on that.... pressure up the system to say 10 psi them observing the gauge has someone start the machine if the gauge spikes upwards may even pin the gauge you have a head gasket or worse problem
Yea, I saw it has an oil cooler, that was going to be my first point of attack. Since I don't have a coolant pressure tester I'm probably going to inspect the oil cooler. Doesn't look too bad to get out, remove the injection lines and then remove the plate. Fluids are already drained.
Rent a tester. Or buy one. Shotgunning repairs gets expensive fast, and may create new problems.
It's usually extremely easy to pressurize the system through the radiator cap if it has an overflow hose. You won't see the pressure drop precisely, but you'll see any leaks just the same.
I didn't quite understand you before buy now I get it. I don't think it has a overflow hose, but I'll definitely check.
Actually if you're talking about the hose that goes to the overflow bottle, which I just realized you probably are... I could probably hook my air compressor up to that.
Yes, but verify your air compressor gauge with another, and have only 10PSI in the tank. Don't make bigger problems for yourself. Where ever the radiator cap is on the system, there's usually a hose to direct overflow somewhere, if there's not a hose, there's usually a barb to put a hose on.
As Delmer mentioned above, just make sure you put NO more than 10psi into the cooling system. don't feed it direct from your compressor, use a pressure regulator of some sort.
now you have no coolant in the system you will be pumping the tester a very long time!
correct me I'm wrong but doesn't the rad cap seal contact the sealing portion of the neck. thereby blocking the hole to the overflow tank which only becomes open to expansion tank when radiator pressure overcomes rad cap spring pressure and exposes the hole allowing flow of coolant to tank
I decided to get a cooling system tester, since everyone was suggesting it. I drained all the old coolant, the oil is already drained with no filter on at the moment. One thing I did notice is there was green coolant in it, which I'm pretty sure is wrong? I filled it up with the right coolant, hooked up the tester to the radiator cap, pumped it up to 9 psi, and it has been holding for the past 10 minutes, nothing coming out of the oil pan, no change in the gauge...
Did the engine make white smoke when running? don't run it long with coolant in the oil its very hard on rod and main bearings I have worked on quite a few of these engines and found them to be a pretty durable engine. while you had it drained did you remove the oil cooler and pressure check it? I had a old rad cap geared up with a barbed fitting in it for some rubber line I would place the line into a 2ltr pop bottle start the engine let warm up and look for bubbles. indicating a failed head gasket. some of the head gaskets I changed on these engines had no obvious failure point ie no blown out parts and no tattoo track. but if they bubbled in bottle I changed them and it solved the issue. you need to pick a path with your trouble shooting and stick to it eliminating all possible causes
When I had the engine running before I realized grey oil, like I said before, there was no smoke and it sounded great. I did not remove the oil cooler, as the vast majority of suggestions here said to pressurize the cooling system to see if there is a leak before tearing into anything; and since I pressurized the system to just under 10 psi, like members said, and there is no coolant coming out of the oil drain plug, no hissing anywhere, and the gauge held the same psi for 20 or so minutes, it makes me think there is no leak. I did not start the engine while I had the system pressurized, because it has no oil in it at the moment.
I would give it an hour or two, and check again. Things don't always leak immediately. Then you could move on to cooler.
Wouldn't a leak in the cooler be shown by pressurizing the coolant system?
I think its better to isolate the cooler, submerge in water, plug all openings, and pressure test to 10 psi again, look for bubbles, but that's just me.
I think I'm going to fill it with oil, run it and monitor the fluids, especially since I just filled it with fresh, new coolant. I will put the pressure back on the rad and leave it for a couple hours to see if that changes anything.
Try pressurising the system with the engine up to normal operating temperature. Just be careful when you loosen the cap to release the pressure. BTW did you do anything to clean the oil residue out of the cooling system.?
I'll try that once I get oil in it. Should I do it while running, or just when it's hot? Also, there was no oil residue in the cooling system that I could tell, the old coolant looked brand new.
And I would just be looking for pressure drop in the gauge right?
Do it with the engine stopped I would suggest. You are looking for a pressure drop on the gauge. You may have to leave it for an hour or so, don’t expect instant results. Sorry I thought you said earlier that there were traces of black oil in the radiator.
Bear in mind some things wont open up and leak untill warm
So I got the oil filled up, coolant filled up, ran it for 20 minutes or so, to get it warm and went to check the fluids... it looks like the front main seal is leaking, there is oil thrown in a line coming from it. Could be where the water in the oil was coming from?
Also I did get it warmed up and just put the pressure tester back on, will leave it for an hour or so. It did hold pressure overnight cold.
just looking up the front main seal price... from cat its $160 anywhere else its $20...
Possibly. if oil can get out water can potentially get in. Why not ask the former owner who told you about all the engine work done on it whether or not he replaced the front and rear crankshaft seals. If he didn't it was a bit of a waste going that far into the engine and not to put new crank seals in it.
Since you're together now, run it for a couple of hours and monitor fluid levels. After 25 or so hours, pull an oil sample and have it analyzed.
I'll say this regarding your quoted prices. A crank seal is something you only want to do once.......... Think about that before you order a replacement.
From my understanding, the previous owner bought it from a company of some sort, he was doing a project at his house that needed a tracked machine, but he ended up hiring someone for the work instead. The machine needed a bunch of undercarriage work before it could be ran, and he didn't do anything with it; he bought it, dropped it off at his house and it sat until I bought it. So from my understanding the owner before him did all the engine work, and from the looks of the undercarriage, they weren't the best at keeping up with maintenance. I should've done a little better inspecting the engine, I was more worried about the undercarriage. I was looking at it as a project, but if I realized it had some engine issues I could've gotten it for a better price. Ya live and ya learn!
That looks like the water pump is leaking down the front cover, and getting picked up by crank pulley.
Looks like there is a leak somewhere in the cooling system, didn't hold pressure yesterday. It did drop 10 or so degrees outside yesterday but I don't think that would change anything. And I'm pretty sure it's the crank seal, I see nothing coming from the water pump. I guess the next step is testing the oil cooler? Any suggestions best way to do that? Thanks everyone!
Sorry I don't agree. Look back to earlier posts where it was explained that the oil pressure is higher than the cooling system pressure when the engine is running. Therefore if the cooler was leaking the first thing you should have found was dark traces of engine oil in the radiator. You replied to one of my posts above stating that was not the case. Then when the engine is stopped from operating temperature the pressure in the cooling system will be higher than the oil pressure, which would obviously be zero at that point. This is where coolant gets into the oil pan. So you have one of the above not the other, therefore IMO that does not point to the cooler, at least on the face of it. And because the engine has no cylinder liners the obvious culprit for coolant to get into the oil without the reverse taking place would be in the cylinder head, be that from the cylinder head gasket or a defect in the cylinder head itself.
So would you suggest taking the head off and getting it tested for cracks if the gasket looks OK? One thing I'm a little confused about is if oil pressure is greater than coolant pressure when running, and there is a leak in the cooling system, which we believe there is, wouldn't there be oil in the coolant no matter if it was oil cooler or head/head gasket, unless it was a leak in an exterior part like a hose or something?
When I drained the coolant, it looked brand new, clear green
The only place in the engine where coolant and oil are separated by a single barrier is in the oil cooler, where effectively there is oil on the inside of a tube and coolant on the outside of it. If the tube cracks whichever fluid is at the higher pressure will leak into the system containing the fluid at the lower pressure. As previously mentioned the fluid transfer can go in different directions under different circumstances but usually a failed cooler will result in BOTH oil in the radiator and coolant in the oil pan. There is an smaller possibility that a failed head gasket could permit coolant (under the 10psi or so pressure of the cooling system) to leak to an oil passage which is draining oil from the valve gear in the cylinder head back to the oil pan and so is at zero pressure. IMO this can potentially take place without the head gasket failing to a cylinder resulting in combustion gases pressurizing into the cooling system.
One other point, before you condem anything, is to make sure your test procedure(coolant pressure test) is accurate. By doing it a couple of times. 10 degrees of cold winter air can harden the thin little rubber seal on even a good tester, let lone an Amazon one. Verify your results, maybe throw a tarp over top of your work area, and keep things consistent. You can fool yourself sometimes when diagnosing.
Science question... if the coolant is at 100+ degrees, I then pressurize the system and wait for a couple hours, wouldn't the coolant cooling down change the pressure in the system? Hence why a hot radiator cap is dangerous to open, letting all the hot pressure out, and a cold one is fine cause there is no pressure.
What I would do if I were you is fill the cooling system and make sure the oil is full and clean. Install the cooling system pressure tester while the engine is cold. Start the engine and watch the pressure gauge on the tester. If it hits 10LBS quickly (less than a minute or so)..then you have compression entering the cooling system. Once the system hits 10 psi, stop the engine and watch the gauge........if the pressure starts to drop (again, less than a minute or so) you more than likely have leakage. AT that point, drain the oil quickly and look for water or coolant.
So it seems I have at least a leaky hose... Didn't look that way until today. Also, I looked at the service manual, what an idea!, for testing the coolant system for a leak, and it said to pressurize the system to 3 psi greater than your radiator cap, and the radiator cap on there says 13 lbs, so the manual says to go to 16 psi. I will try that. I did have the pressure tester hooked up and pressurized to 8 psi, started and ran it for 30 seconds or so, and there was no change in the gauge.
Any system can be under some pressure, even cold. The difference is a cool bath and a scalding hot one.
You are going to have to run it longer than that. Leave it running at least until it hits the cap psi rating. It may take 10-20 minutes for an idling engine to reach thermostat temperature and start circulating the cooling liquid.
Yes, that is taken into the design of the system to get pressure to keep the coolant from boiling. 20 minutes is not long enough to find a slow leak, overnight is too long to trust the precision of the tester, coolant cooling contraction, etc. Try for an hour, couple hours, four hours even.
A typical radiator cap seals three places, the outer neck is tight and not supposed to leak, the inner neck of the radiator is sealed with the pressure relief valve. The brass disc in center of the bottom of the cap is a very low pressure check valve that allows the cooling system to suck that overflowed coolant back into the radiator with very low pressure (the hoses would collapse with very slight vacuum).
Update... I've let it sit for a couple weeks, had other things going on, and now back at it. I did some other minor research, and read through this thread again, and am pretty convinced its something to do with the head or head gasket. Today I started disassembly to remove the head, and since the oil cooler was right there, I decided to take it out, just to absolutely rule it out in my mind; that ended up being a little bit of a mistake because the oil cooler is fine, and there is no signs of oil where there shouldn't be, but I did break off 2 bolts in the block...♂️ I'm now about halfway into taking the head off, hopefully the weather holds off long enough for me to get it off tomorrow.
Maybe post some pictures of your head gasket when you get it off.
Got the head off, here are some pictures of the gasket.
Let me know what you guys think based off the gasket. It does look like, which is what I expected, that the area of the cylinders was all sealed, but everywhere else is rusty, I guess meaning that coolant could get to the different oil passages. When I was loosening the head bolts they seemed like they could've not been a little looser than they should've been, but I just looked at the torque specs, and it said 90ft-lb, its possible it could have been that. One or two of the head bolts were also a little bit rusty, not sure what that means. Also, I have a hard time believing this engine was rebuilt, with less than 5 hours on it the guy said...
I don’t think that engine has ever been apart since new judging by the rusty head gasket and cylinder wear. Now you need to decide if you just want to throw a head gasket in and run it or tear it down to at least check bearings. You don’t know how long they ran it with coolant in the oil. It would be much cheaper to roll bearings in now rather than destroying the crank.
Do you have any insight on the condition of the headgasket? I can't see any glaring spots where it's failed, other than the fact it's all rusty.
I’d probably have to agree that engine has never been apart, or if so it has way more than 10hrs run time on the rebuild. How do the cylinder walls look? Still have cross hatching? Any ring ridge you can feel with your finger nail? Hard to tell anything from the pictures on the head gasket, sometimes it not even easy to tell in person exactly where it failed. If it were me I’d also tear the head down, and have it hot tanked and magnafluxed to check for cracks.