I HAVE A TOPKICK WITH A CAT 3116 AND ALLISON, IS IT POSSIBLE TO SWAP ENGINE TO A 290 CUMMINS? WILL IT FIT, AND WHAT BELL HOUSING/FLYWHEEL WILL I NEED?:usa:usa:usa:usa
anything is possible, almost I have changed several engines, with different models and I said each time, I would never do it again I definitely would not tackle this project Is your 3116 a computer engine, Im pretty sure the 290 is not a computer engine To my knowledge, the topkick never had a 290 in it As bad as I hate the 3116 engine, I would get a rebuilt 3116 and install it back in your truck You will be money ahead, the engines are just too different, motor mounts Hummm youll have to make them, what a pain Radiators, you might have to have one special made $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ air filter housing $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ front motor mounts fan blade to match radiator cooling piping relocating tranny shifter clutch linkage HUMMMMMMM$$$$$$$ flywheel will probrably have to be changed, maybe a different style clutch The list goes on and on The truck is just too small, to accommodate much retrofit lots of headbagging
Willis, are the Cat 3116 engines bad? I have one in my 953C trackloader that has been good so far, is there issues with the 3116 to be looking out for? thanks
go with an 8.3 cummins. you can get it manuel or electronic and it will bolt up to an allison. prolly an sae 2 bellhousing.
they are called throw away engines They seem to work better in equipment than they do in trucks Cat thought they got smart and replaced these engines with a 3126, not much better There are some of these engines, that give better service, normally they are crappy engines
I guess you dont need clutch linkage, you have a automatic call GMC?Chev and see what engines came in the topkick, then try to find a parts truck with the engine you want to install and buy the brackets, etc. If the dealer says it only came with 3116, then you have an up hill battle
Thanks guys, for all the info, ya it may be a long drawn out project, i think ill trash the truck and find a good truck to go under my dump bed.........................
The only engines the topkick (90's models that would've come factory with a 3116) ever came with was the 3116, 3126, or a gas V8. I'm swapping an 8.3 into mine next weekend. Had an 8.3 shipped to me. I'll make a thread about it.
Ok great! Ill bee looking forward to reading your thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why swap out the 3116? I've always found them to be very good motors in trucks. I'd take it over the Cummins any day. If the truck is spec'd right and with some basic service there's no reason not to be able to do 300k+ with no major repairs.
I'm going with an 8.3 because 1. Its a sleeved engine so you can rebuild it more times 2. It'll make 100 more hp than a 3116 and get the same mpg with basic mods 3. You can run the overhead on it without $3500 worth of tools 4. It's simply easier to work on. That being said, my 3116 has been a good engine and has taken alot of abuse.
I agree with you 02dmax, my lil 3116 has been good, but it's tired now, it has a piston clicking, the front cover is leaking oil,and a injector cold flooding, the price to repair is more than what i want to spend on it, so im going to swap it out.
I've got a new 8.3 if you don't have one yet.
I've got one but need another one for another repower I'm doing. How much monies?
Guys, please take your negotiating to PM. Thanks!!
Im looking to repower a topkick (33kgvw) also. getting as much homework as I can. where to start? seen a few threads..
Looking for a Cummings to put in my topkick frame, but which one. I have a 3116 170hp, looking for 100 more horses in dump truck application.(single axle) I put a thirteen speed in long time ago but need for hp
A 3116 will do 250 hp with the turn of a screw and proper tuning. I have seen them at 275 hp too. We have dynoed them. Most failures are caused by improper synchronization or lack of maintenance.
I was told=new turbo,cam.fuel injectors is the beginning of new hp of this throw away motor. I saw a few threads of Cummings 290 or 8.something being installed in a topkick. just fishing right now seeing where it goes..
8.3 6CTA is what I did. Reliable 400hp with minimal mods. Great mileage, great reliability and super simple. I've done mine and 2 others since. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Thanks 02DMAX, I saw a thread from you earlier about this. I will start looking around now for a unit. I think when I changed my tranny It was a type 2, I will be using a twin clutch too, any suggestions on extra brackets mounts etc I need to find in a wreck yard?
Type 2 bell housing that is
Just keep the motor mounts off the 3116 to use for a pattern. I fab'd my own but it was easy. Try and find a flywheel housing with similar height motor mount holes. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
If get a moment, could send a few photos of the final instal so I can get an idea of small stuff=a/c compressor lines,power steering,air intake. etc. I've seen several types of 8.3 6cta but don't know all the different set-ups, looks like a take out from fright liners have the most complete setups if I cant get the hole package..
02dmax what did you do put the cummins in?
91 topkick 6500 Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Pics wont show much. I tried to take some during the process but it just looked like iron and hoses. Lol. I did one in a t300 that's much easier to see and its the same setup as my topkick. I'll see if I can find the pics. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
02Dmax, we are in the process of swapping a Cat 3116 out for an 8.3 cummins in a 1993 GMC C7000. I see from what you have written here that you have done a few of these. I have a few questions but I cannot private message you due to forum restrictions. My email that I use for my tech support issues is [email protected] . I look forward to hearing. Thank You
Email sent
Oh wow. I have been looking for info on anyone putting a 8.3 in a topkick. I have a 96 topkick 6500 4 door western hauler/toter that is super slick but the Cat and Allison has to go away. I recently acquired 8.3 Cummins 300 horse and 3060 Allison 6 speed from a wrecked firetruck with only 60,000 miles for less than the value of the transmission. The motor is still all mechanical so would be fairly easy once installed. It looks like there is enough room without any body modifications but would be nice for someone to verify that. Problem with the transmission is that they didn't pull the ECM or shiftpad and cut the wiring harness. I have since learned that pretty much renders the transmission worthless for my application, even if I had the ECM, Allison people cant program, or wont program for my truck. I would really like to use the Allison since my truck is already automatic, My 545 Allison couldn't handle the horsepower or torque of the 8.3. Another option is a 9,10 or 13 speed roadranger. What were the smaller ones we had behind the 427's back in the mid 70's? Would they be a good mate for the 8.3? I know, a lot of questions. My 3116 cat will run top speed 73 M.P.H. but at 180 H.P and the 4 speed Allison it falls on it's face pretty bad in these Ozark Mountains. It's way too sharp of a truck to spend it's life in the right side of the highway
If you keep the hp at a mild 250-260 range, a MT--653 or 643 would be a good candidate. If you go higher in hp, a HT-740 would be a good choice. Donor parts(shifter,brackets,modulator cable) for a HT are easily found in old mixer trucks, if you have a r-mix company around, especially ones that run fronts, they should have parts, if they will sell them.
Thanks for the reply. I'll check into the HT-740 because I'm certainly not going to go down on horsepower. Does the 740 have overdrive? I drive Texas a lot and when the speed limit is 80 and everybody is running 90, I don't want to be stuck at 70. Is OD2max still on this forum? I saw some old posts and he seemed to have a lot of experience putting 8.3 Cummins in Topkicks and lives in my state. It would be great to pick his brain or even take a road trip to see a installation, could save me a lot of head scratching when I get ready to swap mine. Thanks.
What is your usual gross weight? 300HP and a 653 trans would be just fine at 50K or less. You will need the proper torque convertor ratio and shift points adjusted for your rpm range. And no these are not overdrive transmissions. But the 653 has a very low first gear so you could bump the rear axle ratio up a bit.
Do you want to keep the automatic that came with the cummins? Have you looked into independent transmission shops to see if anybody can mate it up with a junkyard module? Who told you that your transmission is worthless without allison programming? I don't know, just asking.
I agree, the original transmission is the best choice by far if you can make it work. Should be able to buy a new ECM if you can figure out which one it came with. Somebody just doesn't want to be bothered to look things up.
Absolutely the 3060P Allison that's bolted to it right now is by far the best choice! It even has a electronic jake brake installed. Plus, as I said earlier, the pair only has 60,000 miles and Firetrucks generally get "the good stuff" and excellent maintenance. I'm sure there has to be someone out there that can take any ECM and program it for my truck but Allison shops have a taboo about that kind of stuff I guess. The firetruck would have had 4th and 5th locked out of the program. I'll have to admit though, I'm a little old school and a roadranger is sounding pretty good if this automatic gets to be too big of a headache or cost a fortune in parts and programming. Problem with that though is that I really wouldn't know exactly what to look for, too many variations although I know that 9,10 and 13 speeds are pretty versatile. My truck is a automatic but pedals, linkages and such should be pretty easy to come up at salvage and I'm sure the cab has all the mounting holes, etc. oh, to answer a previous question, I run 42,000# plates and that allows me to scale around 20K on the trailer.Typically about half that though.
42,000 and less? A 653 Allison will be your friend here. Forget trying to do the ecm and wiring harness if you dont need them. Myself I would be looking at the Isuzu 7.8 engine because it kicks *** on most us built engines in the Chevy trucks.
Might check here: https://truckpartsinventory.com/transmission-ecms-allison-parts
Sawzall5150- I'm right in your neighborhood, and I've got a allison that was behind a 8.3 cummins sitting in my yard. Its in a military truck, I took the 8.3 and mated it up to a road ranger, so I also have the right bellhousing for the torque converter, the manual transmission ones are not as deep. It's got the manual/ cable shift linkage and tower in the cab yet too. I fit up two of the 8.3's in a pair of cranes that I have, and sold the other military truck. I still have one military truck left. You can send me a PM through the site. If you still have both your arms and all your legs- we can probably work out a price. I think the military truck had under 30,000 miles on it, and it was running and driving when we pulled the engine. That would eliminate all electronics in the system, if yours is a manual injector pump 8.3.
If those are the transmissions I think they are, It's a MT654CR, that is an honest 300HP trans, Best part is all the adaptor parts are there.
I think that's what the trans. is Rzucker, I'll look at it tomorrow.
I'm also betting it has a solenoid valve on the left side just above the shifter arm. External/Manual convertor lockup. The military used lockup to run winches without having to rev the engine up, It also works as a hold back on steep grades.
I like the idea of a 3000 series a lot better than the 6xx but if the deal is good, you should probably take it. The 3000 series is still a current product more or less while the 6xx is getting pretty old. I'm told he shift points are adjustable by rotating a ramp thingy behind each valve body spring, but they may be just fine for the engine you have depending on RPM.
That 654 will probably last forever in the OP's application. I worked on a fleet of trucks that ran around 80,000 gross with 300 HP turbo 6-71's, hardly ever a transmission issue, Snaffled up 4-5 milsurp transmissions as spares. Crane Op's trans came off the back of an 8.3 Cummins so it really shouldn't need any adjustment. But yes, You can adjust shift points with the ramp rings, you can also change the flyweight governors. The parts manual gives a detailed combination of parts for various engine rpm ranges IIRC.
I just remember all the Allisons I used to drive, when we'd get a new truck the transmission would be very well set up. Sometimes the shift logic would give you a weird feeling being used to a car but if you thought about it, you could see the logic, why they held it in lower gears longer, kind of let the engine rev out when at WOT, or not immediately upshifitng on throttle release, lots of little nuances that made it operate more effectively. Then we got another new truck, and the Allison programming stunk. It was something like a 2000 RPM program on a 2200 RPM engine and it was bogging all the time. Eventually we got an Allison engineering/service guy out there with a laptop and he re-did pretty much everything and after that it was great. Until the ECM had a problem and when they did the repair the shop changed it to "garbage truck" program where every time you lifted the throttle with the Jake switch on it went for 2nd gear. [I wanted to coast down this hill not come to a complete stop!] I left that job before we resolved the issue, the engineering guy was always busy and came from a long way off. So like everything, it seems in these new days, the hardware is pretty good but the service people don't know what they are working with any more, and the one smart guy is always too busy to get to you. Anyway I just told that story because just because it is an 8.3, the rev ranges might be a little different and the shift speeds might need adjustment to make it operate the way it should.
I gotta say I would rather go mechanical and not have to worry about a circuit board to get me down the road. That's just me.
You are just the guy I need to talk to. I have put the Allison on ebay and decided to also go with a roadranger. Biggest holdup is I don't know anything about bellhousing fit up and such. I found a Roadranger guru at Inland Truck Parts in Springfield but he's on vacation this week, I'm sure he can answer any Roadranger questions but my concern is what bellhousing to look for that will work on the 8.3 and fit a 10 or 13 speed? Also will my starter still work? Chances are, when I find a transmission it may even have the correct bellhousing, clutch, etc.
I forgot to tell you, the motor is a '96 and I guess that's the last of the mechanical motors. Hard to believe it only has 66.000 miles. Clean enough to eat off of. I also need to come up with engine fan, pulleys, good diagram. It was belly mount in the firetruck and the fan is bolted directly to the harmonic balancer.
I have two different transmissions behind 8.3's One big box 9513 and a small box 613. Either will handle the torque of a 8.3. The engine flywheel housing/adaptor is mostly determined by two things, transmission and starter location. The standard transmissions use a shallower flywheel adaptor than the allisons use. You will have to figure out what you need for a flywheel and clutch- are you going push style clutch or pull? That's probably going to depend on what you find for a donor. Most trucks in this size don't run a 10 or 13 speed, they just have a 6 speed spicer etc. You probably aren't going to be hauling heavy are you? I'm powering a 50,000lb crane with them, but you're probably just using it like a pickup aren't you? The road rangers will be big, heavy and noisy. And you really don't need all those gears. What's your rear ratio? You're more than welcome to come look at the 8.3's in the crane's, but really its not going to show you much- or have much relevance to putting it in a topkick. The 8.3 probably isn't much bigger than the cat that is in it, so I don't think you will have room issues. Central engine core in springfield, and there's another engine yard in ozark, they will be your best source for finding a flywheel housing and the engine accesories that you need. Be prepared for a lot of dinking around finding and making stuff, and with no vin for what you are doing, you're going to have to just figure out what you need, there's no manual step by step on how to do it.
When I mentioned Mechanical, I was referring to the 600 series Allison that Crane OP has. Putting a RoadRanger in combination with the engine swap may be a good sized headache. But hey... Anything is possible. I like the Allison mechanical idea because there is no fixed linkage geometry to figure out by trial and error.
I think RZucker is giving great advice here- the allison mechanical would make things a lot simpler. No pedals and linkages to try to mount and come up with, no big holes to cut in the floor. If your wife/girlfriend/ mom, want to drive it a little, no teaching involved, just put it in D. When making a swap, the more things you can keep the same, the easier it will be. And its time consuming enough the way it is. Can you take the truck down for a extended period of time? Or are you hoping this is a 3 day project? When we repowered the 1st crane, it was 6 weeks from when it lost the 3208 until we went to a job with it again. The 2nd one we did in 5 days. After we knew everything we needed and every step. The first time, you end up doing something, then wait 3 days for another part, and then run into your next problem. On neither one did we work every day on it, just between crane work. But its not a 2 day in and out, back on the road thing.
Ok, how about this. I have found a RTO 12513 roadranger and wondering if anyone can help me figure out mph in high gear if I use this transmission with the 8.3 Cummins. I am not sure what would be the desired cruising rpm would be for this motor but I have the specs from the engine tag. Keep in mind that this truck is one originally of those Topkick 6500 Monroe dually pickup conversions so it has the lower profile 19.5 tires and a high geared axle I suppose to make up for the short tires. Specs are: Cummins C8.3 300 H.P.@2200rpm axle ratio: 3.36 tire height: 32.5" Final transmission gear ratio: 0.87:1 From what I can find on the internet somewhere between 1700 and 1800 rpm would be the "sweet spot. Thanks for any help or the formula so I can figure it myself
Sorry Crane operator, just saw your last post. Yeah I've got all the time in the world to do this project. The Cat runs perfect, just slow and I'll deal with it as long as needed. My plan is to get everything together, transmission bolted to motor, linkages located, get a assortment of crossmembers, mounts, etc and hopefully this winter when it gets slow, pull the hood, radiator, motor and transmission. Then hang the new one in the hole, block it up into place and start fabbing mounts. I expect to run into some waiting for parts but the more complete I can get everything beforehand, the quicker it will go.
This is the gear ratio calculator I like to use. https://www.4lo.com/calc/gearratio.php I came up with 69mph at 2100rpm 1800 rpm is 59mph
#1 and #2 Bell? Truck Shop
Wow that's pretty slow. Afraid of that. Taller tires not an option as you can see in the picture that I made the bed wheel wells hug the tires pretty close. Plus, taller tires will put my gooseneck ball too high. Looks like a higher o.d. or taller gears. The calculator said 2.78 for 80 mph at 2000 rpm. Dang that's high. The Cat runs 2750 rpm's. I did go by that big core yard in Ozark and that guy is going to put together some options as well.
Some of the 13 speeds have a .73 OD ratio, see here: http://www.roadranger.com/rr/ProductsServices/ProductsbyCategory/Transmissions/PCT_486870 That would put your RPM right where you want it.
Ok so I've been doing my research and using the gear calculator. Yes some 13 speeds RTO, RTLO, RTX have .73 ratio but most are .87. Either way is still way too slow top end. I found that Eaton has a synchronized 850-1100 ft pound torque 6 speed with first being granny slow and 6th is .78. [Eaton FSO 6406] That gives a cruise speed at 1800 rpm of 66 mph. The only way I can see to reach that 80 mph 1800 rpm cruise speed is to drop a auxiliary behind the main transmission. I've located a few medium duty's but have not had time to go get the model numbers to find out what they are for sure. Most I've done research on are .80-.83. The .83 auxillary behind a .78 main, such as the Eaton or similar will put it at 80.5 mph at 1800 rpm. I think a auxillary behind a roadranger would be cool but way overkill but may be cheaper than the 6 speed because of availability. Do you think all this overdrive is too much on the rear end? If this truck ever sees 48,000# I would be surprised. Typically 24-36,000#. I guess if I was heavy I could avoid the "big" gear and save it for skating back home. Does anyone know of plentifully available overdrive 6 speeds similar to the eaton above?
I would raise the bed on some riser blocks, and put taller rubber back there, and/ or switch rear end 3rd member, actually I would probably would do both, before I put in a aux. I guess I missed where your are carrying 24-36,000 lbs. Are you pulling a trailer with equipment or what? I still think you would be better to go allison and stay automatic, (just to save the weight/ noise/ size of a roadranger and all the changing of stuff around on the truck) and change your rear and tire size to get some of the speed you want. I think trying to get one of those topkicks to 80mph is foolishness, but that's just me. Empty its going to bounce around like a bobtail, and I guess I'm not much for towing at 80 either, but that's just me.
Yeah I've got a triple axle gooseneck and move a lot of equipment around Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas. Not a lot of weight usually but bulky. I usually limit the load around 16-18,000# and hire a real truck above that. I've got a couple F350's and they handle it and pull good enough but you've got to stop it also. The topkick has WAY more braking capacity and just generally handles the weight much much better. The reason for the speed is that it takes a long time to get home from south Texas at 69 mph, especially when the speed limit is 80 and everybody is passing me at 85. It's smooth as silk at it's current speed of 73mph [downhill, empty with no trailer]. If it could hold the 73 loaded I'd leave it alone but it falls on it's face pretty bad. I'm loosing almost 1000 rpm going from the Cat to the Cummins and that's why the speed difference between the 2 engines. Plus, let's not forget that there's also a pretty big "hobby" factor going on here and it's a really good looking truck, kinda rare. The newer ones are all over the place but you hardly ever see one of these.
My gut feeling is that if you do actually what it takes to get to 1800 RPM at 80 mph, you will wish the gears were shorter because the engine will be laboring to push all that headwind at that low of an RPM, plus throw in any kind of hill and it will be all over. I have found it seems best to have RPM near max or at least near max power in top gear at maximum intended speed. No reason to have to use next-to-top gear because true top gear is too tall. That being said, I get nervous even at 65 mph thinking of all the spinning parts and tires just waiting to fly apart at the worst time, or somebody get in front of the truck. I would not drive 80 in a truck under any circumstances.