3508 CAT sn BPX00105 I suppose this belongs under Forestry. If not, maybe some Mod could move it for me. I have a rough running engine in my tub grinder, and have the injectors out. CAT is selling me new o-rings to reinstall them after a mild cleanup. My engine guy advises me that we should try this as a next step, since several of these seals are cracked. Cheap enough to chance it before replacing the injectors. I have a kind of twofold problem. The rough running, possibly, has caused about 3 pages of DTC's on my Diesel Lappie, but I think most are old and just stored in memory. I don't have the printout in front of me atm, so can't provide a list. But my thinking is to clear the codes if I cannot determine which are live/current and which are old, fixed and are just stored for reference and start over with no codes stored at all. Then any that pop up I know would be current. I'd like opinions on that. The other thing is I am in need of a schematic for this engine control system, based on the overall hodge-podge of codes that are there but don't seem related either to the current rough running or the cracked injector seals. Something tells me there is a problem between the engine and fuel control modules in the harness, so rather than peel it all open and try to find an open or short, or possible bad ground, I would like to have more info. So far, I am told that CAT will furnish a complete engine diagram that includes the ECM and fuel module where I can get the pinouts for all the connectors. I believe I can find a harness issue with that information. We don't do much of our own heavy engine work, and this is about a $100k engine, so I use an outside specialist I've come to trust. Problem is, I really don't want to pay CAT $800 and wait two weeks for their manual only to use (at this point anyway) only the electrical information. But I do need to eliminate any potential problems with the electrical system. If anyone can help me locate a generic 3508 schematic, it might go a long way to help find some ghost problem. I do pretty fair on the electrical/electronics side of things, and my health doesn't let me do the heavy lifting any more so I feel I need to start there. I'm pretty well equipped with instruments of various types to test most anything common in a harness. Plus a have a decent helper to do the climbing around. He's learning. Naturally, the manufacturer of the machine doesn't offer the same level of information as I believe I need. I want sensor outputs, ranges, etc so I can test them directly after the injectors put back and it is ready to run again. Right now I will not even turn the key. Power is locked out to protect it from dummies anyway. So I rest it's fate in the HEF Brain Trust to guide me through this, hopefully with some insight and experience. I'll settle for good guesses though. They often lead the right direction. And as always, I appreciate any tips offered. Some of you fine folks have my email, or maybe it's in my profile, but if you'd rather talk to me off record, feel free to contact me that way. Or PM me and ask for it. I'll happily provide it. If any additional information will help or is needed, let me know and I'll get it. Tons of thanks, Tony Wells
Here's the schematic, RENR4922 for your serial number. http://www.catsch.info/renr4922.html Could you post the list of codes you have?
Thank you, Per, for that link. I'm sure it will help. Wish my plotter was running, I'd print that out at lease D size so I wouldn't have to use my magnifying glass. I'll just take the laptop along. Here are 3 screenshots from our laptop. I think there may be a page or two more, but this is all the tech sent me. It appears that all but one (CODE 91) is just stored in memory. I can't even tell when each of those codes were set, all at once or spread out over years. The TPS code, assuming this engine actually uses one, says it's a valid, current fault. Tomorrow I plan of hunting that down and making sure the harness doesn't have a problem on that circuit, again assuming it actually exists. I picked up o-rings today and will get the injectors back in and along with my engine guy, get it cranked and see what the laptop tells us fresh. I'll post what we see after we do that. It's possible I guess that it could be fine. This problem came on suddenly after the engine had been running smooth and normal for quite a while, so I really think this is something simple. Sometimes easy to find, sometimes not so much. Now I also get to track down a main hydraulic pump for an old Galion grader tomorrow. All the brass pistons went to pieces, and are all downline, so flushing it will be a treat. We sold it, but agreed to fix it. It's an early 80's model, so that should be fun. And of course, it's urgent, like everything else. I'll never get caught up.
The only code in the list I think could cause rough running is the speed control code, a bad signal there could make the engine hunt rpm's and that can sound as it is missing or not running on all cylinders. Table 1 Diagnostic Codes Table Code and Description Conditions which Generate this Code System Response 91-8 Throttle Position Sensor abnormal frequency, pulse width, or period The Engine's Electronic Control Module (ECM) detects a sensor frequency that is less than 150 Hz or a sensor frequency that is greater than 1000 Hz for two seconds. or The ECM detects a duty cycle that is less than 5 percent or a duty cycle that is greater than 95 percent for one second. The code is logged. The throttle signal defaults to a zero percent duty cycle (low idle). The speed control is used to provide a throttle signal to the engine control. The output from the speed control for rated speed is a pulse width modulated signal. The signal varies with the position of the speed adjust potentiometer. The ECM calculates the desired engine speed from the signal from the speed control. The rated speed signal is valid when the duty cycle is in the range of 5 to 95 percent. If the ECM detects a rated speed signal that is invalid, the engine will be set to low idle. Some applications may choose not to use the speed control. Some applications may use a load sharing unit. The unit is configured to provide the engine control with a rated speed signal. Some of these units cannot provide a signal until the engine is running. In these cases, perform troubleshooting while the engine is running. Test Step 1. Inspect Electrical Connectors and Wiring Turn the switch that provides power to the keyswitch input for the ECM to the OFF position. Turn the breaker for the ECM to the OFF position. Thoroughly inspect the ECM connector J1/P1. Inspect all of the Connectors in the circuit. Refer to Troubleshooting, "Inspecting Electrical Connectors" for details. Check the ECM connector (allen head screw) for the proper torque. Refer to Troubleshooting, "Inspecting Electrical Connectors" for details. Perform a 45 N (10 lb) pull test on each of the wires in the ECM connector that are associated with the circuit. Check the harness and the wiring for abrasion and pinch points. Expected Result: The components and wiring are free of the following problems: damage, corrosion, abrasion and incorrect attachment. Results: OK - The wiring and connectors are OK. Proceed to Test Step 2. Not OK - The wiring and/or connectors need repair. Repair: Repair the connectors or wiring and/or replace the connectors or wiring. STOP Test Step 2. Check the Voltage at the Speed Control Connect the red probe of the digital multimeter to the +Battery terminal of the speed control. Connect the black probe of the digital multimeter to the −Battery terminal of the speed control. Expected Result: The digital multimeter reads 24 ± 3 VDC. Results: OK - The voltage supply to the speed control is correct. Proceed to Test Step 3. Not OK - The digital multimeter did not read 24 ± 3 VDC. Repair: There is a problem with the supply voltage to the speed control. Verify that any circuit protection is not tripped. Repair any wiring or connections that are damaged. STOP Test Step 3. Check the Throttle Position on Caterpillar Electronic Technician (ET) Connect Cat ET to the service tool connector. Turn the breaker for the ECM to the ON position. Turn the switch that provides power to the keyswitch input for the ECM to the ON position. Observe the position of the throttle on Cat ET. Turn the speed adjust potentiometer to the lowest setting. Start at the low idle position. Slowly turn the speed adjust potentiometer in the other direction. Monitor the position of the throttle on Cat ET. Expected Result: The throttle position on Cat ET reads 0 percent at the lowest setting and 0 to 100 percent as the speed adjust potentiometer is adjusted. Results: OK - The speed control is operating correctly. Repair: There may be an intermittent problem. If the problem is intermittent, refer to Troubleshooting, "Inspecting Electrical Connectors". STOP Not OK - The throttle position on Cat ET does not respond to adjusting the speed adjust potentiometer. Proceed to Test Step 4. Test Step 4. Check the Speed Control Remove the wire from the S terminal at the speed control. Set the multimeter to "VDC". Press the "Hz" button twice so that the % symbol is displayed. Place one probe of the multimeter on the S terminal of the speed control. Place the other probe on the −Battery terminal of the speed control. Monitor the output of the percent duty cycle from the speed control on the multimeter. Turn the potentiometer from the low setting to the high setting. Expected Result: The duty cycle is between 4 and 10 percent at the low setting and between 90 and 95 percent at the high setting. Results: OK - The speed control is supplying the correct signal. Proceed to Test Step 5. Not OK - The duty cycle is not correct on the multimeter. Repair: Check the speed adjust potentiometer for proper operation. If the speed adjust potentiometer is operating correctly, temporarily install another speed control. Verify that the problem is no longer present. STOP Test Step 5. Check the Throttle Signal at the ECM Turn the switch that provides power to the keyswitch input for the ECM to the OFF position. Turn the breaker for the ECM to the OFF position. Remove wire F702-GN from P1-10 at the ECM connector P1. Turn the switch that provides power to the keyswitch input for the ECM to the ON position. Turn the breaker for the ECM to the ON position. Measure the duty cycle between wire F702-GN and P1-5 of ECM connector P1. Note: Set the multimeter to "VDC". Press the "Hz" button twice so that the % symbol is displayed. Monitor the output of the percent duty cycle from the speed control on the multimeter. Turn the speed adjust potentiometer from the low setting to the high setting. Turn the switch that provides power to the keyswitch input for the ECM to the OFF position. Turn the breaker for the ECM to the OFF position. Reconnect all wires and connectors to the original configuration. Expected Result: The duty cycle is between 4 and 10 percent at the low setting and between 90 and 95 percent at the high setting. Results: OK - The duty cycle is correct. Proceed to Test Step 6. Not OK - The duty cycle is not correct. Repair: There is a problem in the wiring between P1-10 and the S terminal of the speed control. STOP Test Step 6. Check the ECM Turn the breaker for the ECM to the ON position. Turn the switch that provides power to the keyswitch input for the ECM to the ON position. Monitor the percent throttle position on Cat ET. Turn the speed adjust potentiometer from the low setting to the high setting. Expected Result: The percent throttle position is between 0 and 100 percent for the above settings of the speed adjust potentiometer. Results: OK - The throttle position on Cat ET is correct. There is an intermittent problem in the wiring and/or connectors between the ECM and the throttle position sensor. Repair: If the problem is intermittent, refer to Troubleshooting, "Inspecting Electrical Connectors". STOP Throttle Position Not OK - The throttle position is not correct. The ECM is not processing the signal correctly. Repair: Replace the ECM. Refer to Troubleshooting, "Replacing the ECM". STOP
Per, thank you for that troubleshooting chart. Once I get the injectors back in I'll go though it. Until then about all I can do is a physical inspection of the harness to make sure there is no obvious damage to it. I really don't think there is, but at the connectors, there always is a chance of a questionable crimp or oxidation...that sort of problem that isn't so visible. I'm sure they could all use a good break and make, with some DeOxit application, anyway. This machine being a tub grinder, with a 2400 lb hammer mill spinning at 1800 rpm, it's not the smoothest environment, and there have been a few quirky wiring issues already. If the harness isn't adequately supported and anchored, the vibration will cause problems, so I envision doing end to end continuity checks while performing the wiggle test. Hopefully this all comes from the injector seals. I removed the old seals today and some had actual gaps of 1/2-3/4" in the o-ring, although I doubt they were in the engine like that, but that tells me there were definitely cracks and that the o-rings are brittle and in need of replacement. Have my fingers crossed.
Just my $1.98 (two cents with inflation and liability insurance) Make double sure your battery cables and all associated connections are sparkly clean, especially grounds wherever they may attach. I've installed a couple CAT engines in custom machines and CAT is very fussy about how and where everything gets grounded so there's no possible loops or voltage differences to throw sensors off or out of their expected voltage range. That and double check anywhere the engine harness could possibly rub and any conductor short to ground, one short can throw several DTC's if the sensors are all on the same supply circuit. Cheers.
Here's a pdf copy of the schematic Per posted earlier. It won't depend on the speed of an internet connection to open if you are out in the sticks. Also a pdf copy of the CID0091 FMI08 Troublshooting Procedure. It includes some graphics regarding pinouts that may be of assistance. If you can erase all the Logged Diagnostic/Event Codes it would go a long way to helping you see the wood for the trees. Does your laptop have that capability..?
Thank you Nige. I'll see if my old plotter still runs and get a D size print of that schematic. I hate trying to scroll around a large, detailed drawing tracing wires. And I've printed out the test sheet. Very helpful. I believe I can clear the memory with our laptop, and plan on doing that. The o-rings for the injectors are in hand, and although more urgent matters pulled me away from this, I'll be back on it probably tomorrow. I'll keep posting as I progress. And thanks, lantraxco. That was part of the plan. I know that grounds can throw a lot of tricks at us, and planned on breaking and cleaning every one, regardless of which element of the circuit I have a problem with. Just an advanced part of PM to me. They are far more important than most give credit for. Weird stuff happens with faulty grounds. Especially on equipment out in the weather. When I am bad ground hunting, I try to do it on a humid day. Seems to make them easier to find. I have a very low current hi-pot tester than generally lets me find them without disturbing anything, which speeds things along. Thanks all!
OK guys, next move. Injectors back in and engine running smoothly. Suspicions of a mechanical problem that is audible. But more on that later. Presently, there is an exhaust leak. Now this is where to me it gets a little weird. I talk to my parts guy, and he tells me there are two basic setups on the 3508. One uses a bellows coupling between the manifold sections, and I don't have that. The other option strikes me as odd because there is no part listing for gaskets between these manifold segments. Now, I have seen metal to metal seals, usually a sort of spherical male/female interface so there can be some misalignment. I'm guessing something like this is used here. I soaked the bolts/nuts down today with penetrating oil with the intent of putting a wrench to them tomorrow, so I'll find out what seals the system then. Supposed to rain, so may not happen. Can anyone supply me with a R&R procedure for removal of the manifold? I can't hear real well, but everyone who can tells me the leak seems to be on the right hand bank. I'm assuming I can remove only half the system. Even an exploded drawing would help. Or any helpful advice or tips on what NOT to do would be appreciated. After the leak is fixed, the new noise should be more distinct and hopefully easier to localize and identify. After this, we get to talk about the new mystery noise.
Your serial number shows a manifold setup with 4 bolt external sleeves. I've never done one like this, but it appears from the drawing you just unbolt the sleeve at each end of the segment you want to remove, maybe loosen everything enough to create some slack and then remove the piece you want? More experienced hands I am sure will join in...
Oh that it was that simple ............ To get one or both sides of the exhaust manifold off (I'll come back to the design of it in a minute) the aftercooler and the inlet manifolds have to come off first. It can be done with the inlet manifold left in place but it's a total pain and not worth the trouble trying IMHO because it'll take at least twice as long and be a struggle all the way. The "joints" between the manfiold sections are 4-bolt and are designed to have a "slip fit" between the sections to allow for expansion as the engine beds in during the first few hours. It's a design that works well on genset engines that run on reasonably constant loads but on any engine subject to any sort of cyclic loading it's a paiin. The problem is that once the sections of the manifold weld themselves together if there is any sort of movement later due to heat cycles it over-stresses the bolts between the manifold and the cylinder heads and they start breaking. I would suspect your exhaust leak is one or more broken bolts. Good luck getting the broken pieces of bolt out - you'll need a very good welder and lots of patience. Sometimes I've seen the head have to come off. I hope you don't have to go that far. Suggestions: 1. Remove both sides of the exhaust manifold even if only one side is leaking now. With all the preparatory work needed you might as well do both sides while you're in there. 2. When removed it will take a lot of beating with hammers to get the sections apart. At some point you may suspect that some ba$tard welded them together. Once you have them apart assault them with a flap wheel until all the joints are so loose you can literally see daylight between adjacent sections. Yes it will blow a bit when it first starts but the loose fit will give time for the manifolds to find their natural position before they get carboned up and seize solid again. 3. When reassembling a load of anti-seize on the joints between sections is also helpful to let the sections slide through one another as you struggle to get the bolts started on each cylinder head. Be prepared for skinned knuckes and lots of cursing. On an 8-cylinder engine you might not have as much trouble as we do on it's 16-cylinder brother. 4. Use all new exhaust manifold bolts, hard washers, and spacers. The idea of the spacers is to get stretch on the bolts. Don't be tempted to use shorter bolts with washers on them except as called out in certain specific locations. 5. In fact expanding the above I would go with 2.5" long bolts (5P-3961) instead of the 2" listed in the parts manual on all the exhaust manifold-to-head joints. That P/N of bolt would use a 5M-2894 hard washer and a 198-0203 spacer. Basically it's how the 3508 engine manifolds would be equipped in an off-highway truck. See attached parts manual from a 777 truck.
Well Nige, you're just a regular ray o' sunshine, ain't ya? Just kidding...this is exactly what I need to know. I suspected it would be fairly involved, but wasn't prepared for all of that. And naturally, this engine is installed in a semi-stationary machine with close fitting safety cages all around. Looks like a painful journey. I don't remember how many hours are on it, but more than enough to get everything settled in and "welded" in place. Fortunately, I do have a building that I can probably get the machine moved into, and will press for that. It's getting to be winter here, and although we have mild winters compared to many places, it does get plenty miserable working outdoors. We get snow a couple of times a year on average, but 34° and rain/wind makes for unpleasant working conditions. That's about what we get during late Dec through Feb as a typical day, with wild fluctuations. Pretty sunshine and 50's one day, and an ice storm overnight when a front moves through and then it's in the 20's and windy, if not precipitating also. Needless to say, I'm not looking forward to this. I do wish I could hear it clearly myself so I would have a chance of being misled and this turn out to be something else that just sounds like an exhaust leak. That would make me (and the owner) mighty unhappy. I think he and I will have to talk this over. What's a (almost) funny thing (but sad) is that we have 3 diesel mechanics on the payroll, but he doesn't want them touching this machine. He doesn't trust them as much as he does me, simply because I am very meticulous and view everything as a machinist as much as a mechanic. Plus we've been friends for almost 40 years. I am slower than they are on some things, but I break a whole lot less stuff as I work on it. Nige, I thank you for the documentation as well as the counsel. It will be taken to heart.
Anyone who's been in my line of work for a number of years will have been battling the same way with 3500-series cylinder head-to-exhaust manifold bolt breakage since the mid-1990s. If you need any more info please ask.
Nige, is there a common point of failure in the exhaust system that I should especially look for when trying to decide where the leak is? As a machinist and mechanic both, I've dealt with a fair number of broken bolts. Some are not too bad, but access is usually key to success in removal. Some are nearly impossible without major disassembly. I've learned several techniques, but none are completely foolproof. I'm preaching to the choir, I'm sure, but hoping not to have to deal with a break in an impossible spot.
Everything in my wallet right now is on one or more bolts broken as shown circled in red in the diagram below. That's where 99% of the bolt failures occur. It is uncommon to see bolt breakages in the fixings between the manifold sections, circled in blue. Access to get at the broken piece of bolt that's left in the head is always the problem.
That would be natural, since the sleeves are not too difficult to work with. Being a bolt/nut arrangement makes that simpler in itself. It's always the blind holes where the real problems appear. The high temp spec bolts, are they a stainless alloy or a high tensile carbon steel? If it comes down to welding on them I would need to know. Guess I'll head out and do some on-site ruminating on how to best approach this. I get notices on my phone when replies turn up on the Forum, so if any more thoughts are to be shared, please continue!
All the hardware that connects the sections, as well as the hardware that secures the manifolds to the heads, is manufactured from high-temperature carbon steel not stainless. Bear in mind that your engine is 15 years old and if no-one has ever been into the top end before I'd suspect that a significant percentage of the manifold bolts will break when removed unless you are extremely lucky. Another tidbit. I'd use the updated Part Number of exhaust manifold gasket that is now used on machine engines. I see the former 7W-8145 is still listed for your industrial engine application. The 7W-8145 is not cancelled .
After consulting with the machine owner, several options were presented. At the very least, the machine will be transported to our main shop where it can occupy a bay to itself as long as needed. More discussion will ensue. This machine has been out of service for some time now, so spending whatever time it takes to do this right will not be a problem. It will be inside a heated building for the duration. IMO the least desirable option is to simply sell the machine as is, with full disclosure. We have several other grinders in the yard, and our eye on another tub grinder anyway. But we have owned this grinder for some time, and know it well, have good connections with the factory, and have made a few custom changes to suit our work. I'd hate to see it go simply because of a difficult and time consuming repair. I wouldn't protest a brand new one, but this one has grounds hundreds of thousands of tons of material. Nige, thank you for the service bulletin. I'll make sure I get the upgraded gaskets. And thank you for all the advice. I'm sure we'll be discussing this one for a while, once the job gets underway. I really expect we will be keeping it.
Another thought. Generally (but not always) the broken bolts are on the corner cylinders. That would be 1, 2, 7, & 8 in your case. I would say that 80% of the time that’s where you’ll find the broken bolt or bolts.
I'll stick to Morookas, lol.
Nige, I am often humbled and impressed with your depth & breadth of knowledge and willingness to share. Kudos to you.
I'll second that, Coaldust. He's helped me tremendously. Far more than the local dealers. Some are just dispassionate about their role in helping people keep their equipment going, or getting it going.
Those look like fun to play with!
Both the Deere and CAT dealers I worked at actively discouraged parts people from giving advice or trying to obtain any technical information for the customers... rather pointedly stated that all such inquiries be referred to the service department to "insure correct information was provided". Right. The service techs of course were under similar gag orders. And they wondered why customers dreaded calling the service writers?
They have their moments!
I can surely see that with the Cat dealer here. In fact I won't deal with them, and the Volvo dealer isn't much better, and he's 35 miles away. The Deere guys are slowly coming around, and will print out tech docs sometimes, but I have to say that the Case guys are really good at helping. Same with the Kobelco dealer. Case dealer here also is Doosan, so that helps too, as we have a half dozen wheeled loaders and 1 or 2 excavators of theirs. Hardly any of them can touch the service level of the more specialized machines such as McCloskey or Petersen. The Hogzilla machine support is still pretty good for the overall machine. I think it is still family owned and a fairly small company, and I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. Only bad thing about McCloskey is the factory is in Canada, and if the US distributor can't help, they have to go to Canada to get info. They are more than willing to do that though, so that's a minor inconvenience. Can't say the same about Morbark though. I kind of feel on my own with their stuff. That's why we have a couple of their tub grinders for sale. They are running fine, but it took too much doing to get them there and they aren't nearly the machine a Hogzilla or Diamond Z is.
Hey Lanway, I know you don't PM much, so I won't bother with that. I asked a question on my 95E thread. See what you think.
I don't mind PM's, it just seems like I don't notice I have them, and I don't think I get email notification? I'm lost in space most of the time.... sure wish I did drugs, then I would have an excuse.
Lol. I just posted a little more info. I'll quit in this thread so it doesn't go off the rails over oil, lol.
It doesn't surprise me about Morbark with the bean counters taking over the joint and on top of that to have the ex owner of Rayco as part of the helm crew there'll no hope. Apparently Denis CAIMF has gone to poo as well
Tony, the photo below will give you an idea what you are up against. This is the back end of a 3516 but your 3508 will be identical. Maybe it won't have the heat wrap on the exhausts but count that as a bonus. Aftercooler is right in the middle of the V. Unless you remove that nothing else can be moved. As you can see with the single cylinder head design of the 3500 engine the exhaust & inlet manifolds are literally wrapped around one another. I'd personally rip the inlets out first then pull each bank exhaust manifold out complete and get it onto a bench where I could beat the living daylights out of it to get it apart. A gas axe might be useful..........
Nige, I've been studying on it. Owner asked how long I thought it would take. All I could say is " a while". I don't see that as an issue if the decision is to do it. This machine has been out of production for 3-4 months, it seems, so whatever it take, it takes. I think it just has to be done. I just have one thing nagging in the back of my mind. We just had our main engine guy, from outside the company, come in and pull the injectors. I cleaned them up, polished a bit of corrosion from the o-ring grooves and got new o-rings for reinstall. He came in and put everything back, reset the valve lash and all. Is there any chance that something he may have done would result in a noise that sounds like an exhaust leak, or even caused one? I can't hear so well these days. I can't even hear the exhaust leak myself, so I'm just going by what others say they hear. I can't think of a real test to find it. I guess I could disable the fan and get away with running it long enough to spread some dust or smoke or something at the connection points and maybe find it. I dunno. It's a big job to go by what someone else says. I've been burned before on that. I charge anyway, and get paid without complaint, but the owner is a personal friend of about 40 years so I try to not waste his money.
Not that I can think of off-hand. A small mirror, like the ones a dentist uses, might help you get into the nooks & crannies of the exhaust system and inspect the 4 bolts on each cylinder head to exhaust manifold joint. Look for soot that could indicate a failed gasket (those 7W-8145s were not that great), broken bolts will be obvious, the head will be missing - probably lying right by the hole it fell out of if it is a bottom one.
I'll do that. I've been focusing on the other connections, but I will concentrate on the head connections. I haven't noticed any spare bolt heads, but I may have just overlooked them.
Be aware that those same bolts can also work loose and that can result in a blowing exhaust joint. In fact the longer bolts & spacers I mentioned earlier were designed to prevent that.
We used to say a noise is not a problem until you can't turn the radio up loud enough to drown it out.
A Smoke machine like is used on automotive evap systems could potentially pinpoint or prove the leak the one we used had a tailpipe adapter I'm sure you could figure something out https://www.amazon.com/STINGER-Smok...ocphy=9020110&hvtargid=pla-570590603233&psc=1
All the bolts are safely accounted for, but the leak is on cylinder #7. My engine guy came down and was listening for a mechanical noise, possibly from the valve train. Some of the other guys said they could hear it. I'm 95% deaf so I couldn't say much. He found the leak by ear, and there is evidence (smut) on a little patch of the head surface adjacent to the manifold, and you can feel the leak "puffing" out if you don't mind getting burned a little. Since it's #7, I'm thinking that it may be possible to removed that elbow section of the manifold and replace that gasket only, but I know there are pins and box ends on that el, so not all too hopeful. Have my doubts. However, he also noticed an odd issue that seems to be ECM related. There is a erratic miss that seems to move around. It will miss a few times on one cylinder, run smooth for a minute, then another cylinder will miss a few times, then another, then another. The engine guy suggests that we send the ECM to someone with a simulator who can record the injector drive pulses and see if they are inconsistent or just what's going on. We have a diagnostic laptop, but I don't think it will record while monitoring. This is a rapidly fleeting problem and doesn't set a code that we've been able to nail down. So we have two problems now. One identified, one not. So if I can locate a service center to check out the ECM, we can work on the exhaust leak. Just a minor update.
I wonder if you could use a storage oscilloscope of some kind to record injector drive pulses on the machine and see what it's doing.
Get hold of someone with Cat ET and do a cylinder cutout test - preferably an automatic muitiple cylinder cutout test. IIRC on the 8-cylinder engine it's a 2-stage test where it cuts 4 cylinders completely then tests the other four one at a time. The test is then repated by cutting out the other four cylinders. Warning - the engine sounds like a bag of bolts when doing this test. Loading the cylinders that way gives a much better idea of injector condition than simply testing each cylinder of the 8 in turn with all of them firing.
Nige, that sounds like a good idea and it may come to that. We've been advised to try connecting an instrument to the cam position sensor and checking it for a consistent signal. Birken , I plan on bringing in a scope, but it's not storage capable. This is one time I wish I had a small, toughened DSO, but my electronics lab in my shop is more intended for bench work. I have 3 scopes, but more suited to that type of work, since one of my hobbies is restoring antique radios and boat anchors. Maybe it's time to invest in a DSO. Nahh, I'm trying to retire, not dig in deeper. Seems to me it would be simpler to just replace the sensor, but I'd really want to know there was a problem before spending the money and time to do it. But honestly, I'm not looking forward to bringing one of my lab scopes to the field. Plus I have no idea what waveform I should be seeing in the first place, so that will be just guesswork and hoping to spot some sort of anomaly. Another suggestion, already acted upon by the owner unless I misunderstood, was to buy a rebuilt ECU and swap it out and send the original out for testing/reconditioning. I'm not sold on the wisdom of that, exactly, but apparently the cost is acceptable and we will have a backup on hand should we ever need it. I believe it may arrive tomorrow. It seems that even though we have several grinders, those we have that are running aren't keeping up. We have contractual obligations for specific delivery of chipped goods at a wholesale level and cannot afford another one to go down right now, so we are going to push a little on the Hogzilla, and another one or two that are out of service for various reasons, primarily with the grinding mechanism and fairly easy to repair, just time consuming and our main fab guy is buried with work at the moment. I shouldn't be doing that type of work, given my health so probably won't be fabricating new parts for any of those. /begin extraneous commentary I say that, but I'm working on reconditioning a dogbone for a Doosan wheeled loader that was very neglected with the grease gun and had the pin eat through the hardened sleeve, into the boss and now I have a rather large egged hole in one end. I'll have to cut out the old boss, bore the plate oversize and build a new, custom boss with a stock ID to receive new sleeves. Then of course, I'll find the bucket holes are bad with the pin fit very loose, and have to get it welded up and line bored, or make new ears and weld them on. But that's another story. And there are more...it never ends. Never a dull moment around here, to be sure. /end extraneous commentary We cleared all the codes stored in the ECU, and after a short run, only about 15 minutes, none returned. But there is a persistent hard code we can't clear that I don't quite understand. I need a little education. Per Cat, there is no throttle position sensor on the engine. But the ECU is apparently looking for a signal from it. So of course it sets a code on it. Ill be the first to admit I'm not an expert on these engines, so I would like to know what system Cat is using to replace what would normally be the tps to determine engine load. The systems I am familiar with use the tps signal in comparison to a air flow sensor to accomplish this and respond to a load lowering the engine speed by increasing the injector pulse width (condensed, more or less). How does Cat handle this function? Just to add a little spice to this, these are the codes that were set during the previous test run. I was not present so can offer nothing as far as actions of the people running it during the test session: Fault Code CDL: Starter motor relay Fault Code CDL: 168 Electrical system voltage Fault Code CDL: 91 Throttle position sensor Fault Code CDL: 546 Ether injection current limit relay Fault Code CDL: 4 Cylinder 4 injector As I said, after clearing all, the only recurring code is the "ghost code" 91. Since Cat built this engine, and I don't believe it was ever field flashed, I don't understand why the ECU is even looking for the TPS signal.
Tony, is there any way you can get the software Part Number that’s installed in the ECM.? Based on the engine S/N I can figure out what it ought to be. It would be nice to compare the two. With ET it would be a doddle, as would getting hold of the actual failure modes for the Codes you mention above. My suspicion is that it might be something related to the diagnostic tool you are using to look for Codes.
See if the attached helps to shed any light on your Code. Looks like it is CID0091 FMI08.
Nige, you may be onto something. That document does mention a TPS a few times, but I was drawn to the data surrounding the engine speed sensor. We have had problems with one of them before. This being a tub grinder, there are more than one speed sensors involved in the machine controller, as the mill speed is linked to engine load as well. IIRC there are three at the flywheel end of the crank, located outside on a hub with notches, I believe, leading me to believe it is a Hall effect sensor style. I remember the gap setting being very ticklish and at that time, the primary symptom was an inability to get the engine up to the desired rpm, which for our purposes is 1800. We never could get the gap right, so eventually condemned that particular sensor, replaced it and setting the gap got us going. I just scanned that doc for now, but will take some time in the morning over a cup or two and let it soak in. We use a Diesel Laptop as our diagnostic tool. It does very well with some equipment, and not so well with others. (Seems better with trucks). Today, running the engine, using the available live readouts for several systems I seem to recall some duty cycle category that was zero. At the time, I was under the impression that it only applied to the TPS, which this engine does not have, so I paid little attention to it. Perhaps I should revisit it to confirm that it was in fact the TPS duty cycle and not something else. As far as the software version/part number, I'm not certain. If so, it will be through the laptop. I'll try to find out tomorrow. I'll get the engine SN also if I don't have it. It may be in an earlier post in this thread, I haven't looked. Once again Nige, I appreciate the excellent assistance you provide.
It might pay you to investigate which of the speed sensors are related to the controls supplied by the grinder manufacturer and which are Cat sensors and so part of the engine setup. All I can help you with is the engine side of it. if you want the electrical schematic then shout out.
I did buy the complete engine system schematic (large format printed on heavy stock, kept out of others grubby little hands, from Cat, so have that. There are 3 3" ring binders that come with the machine, and unless I am mistaken, there is a good schematic for the overall grinder control. But yes, I can see where one of the auxiliary sensors might not be playing nice with the ECU or machine master control. The two systems must interact, so it's easy to see where some problem with one would cause some havoc with the other, as I'm sure the code trigger parameters are not always completely debugged so they always communicate properly. This illustrates the complication with working on a more or less custom, limited production machine. There are separate control/monitoring systems that are integrated through efforts by the power-plant supplier and the machine builder, which inevitably complicates troubleshooting.
Nige, can you confirm the PN for the spacers used with the manifold to head bolts? In the text of your post you call out 198-0203, on the doc you posted I see 198-0230. I have some dyslexia myself, so just checking. Getting ready to order some parts so want to be sure. It looks like we will be pulling the entire manifold, just as was suggested the probability would be. I should be able to get the updated gasket number from the dealer, I expect. Anything else I should bring in to head off ugly surprises?
Tony, how desperate are you.? I’m at the beach for the weekend and working off a phone. Unless someone else can help I’ll get to it Monday.
1980230 is a spacer. 1980203 isn't a good number. If you can give me a TL;DR, I'll try to help.
Chris, if you go back to Page 1 the S/No is listed - BPX00105. My suggestion to Tony was to use the same longer bolts and washers/spacers plus the latest 320-8974 exhaust manifold gasket (from SEPD1247) that are listed in the 3508 installation in a 777D truck. However he can’t use the v-shaped “asbestos” rings in the joints between the manifold sections that the OHT installation uses. So I think from memory he’ll need the high-temperature hardware 5P-2755/2N-2766 to join all the sections of the 144-2876 Manifold Gp on his engine. See posts 11 & 17 on Page 1.
Yep, apart from the spacer part number clarification, I don't think I have anything more to add at this time.
Nige, I have all the time in the world. Not desperate at all. Enjoy your weekend, and please pardon the intrusion! And thanks, Chris, for jumping in. I thought the number was incorrect since there was a discrepancy with the bulletin Nige had posted, but wanted to be sure.