on the topic of 955L steering clutches my 955L I have the LH pinion shaft and carrier out of it. entire steering clutch assembly had to come out to get to it. Also LH final drive disassembled. I need to get my LH final drive back together. If i check end play on the RH pinion shaft and flange it is pretty large or so I think. Does anyone know what this end play should be? I cant find anywhere in the manual where it would say whats acceptable. Its large enough the very outside friction disk has bent fingers on the splines where the drum has bent them over when being released and no longer lined up with drum splines. I think the only way this can be done is with this large end play. I need to figure out why this is causing this issue. Has anyone seen anything like this? Reply by tctractors The top pinion should have a small amount of end float (in-out) from the pinion roller bearings, the B/Drum flange should also have only a very small amount of lift-tilt to it with good bearings on the pinion, the in -out float is usually around an 1/8" but more or less than this figure is not an issue, on the flange tilt on the outer edge it could be 3/16" as a max or around that spot but there is lift and float, its not much trouble to pop off the flange and pull out the pinion re-sealing the shaft as you go, as for the disc issue a picture would be handy to see. tctractors
That's not a bad idea. I already have the steering clutches out of the tractor and disassembled. It would be far easier to pull the pinion from inside the steering clutch case than to pull final drive down to have a look. I will get some pictures and get a good measurement on the in out float. It sticks in my mind its close to a good 1/4" Probably why the LH outside pinion bearing failed and then proceded to trash the outside final drive case. I already have a new case cover. I bought the machine with this impediment. Ok I think I need to explain the history of this machine. I bought this thing for 7K. When I bought it it had the LH final drive dissembled and LH track frame off it. The reason the fella was selling it was that he says he was doing pond work. the LH pinnion outside bearing went bad and it cut a hole on the LH final drive case. by the time they noticed it the final was full of pond sludge. He had a half assed mechanic pull the thing apart and see what it needed. I think thet realized what a project it is and gave up on it. He was had it advertised as parting out and fortunately I was able to get there first and buy whole thing before anything was sold off it. We looked at it very closely and even drug batteries out to it and started the engine. We felt real comfortable it had enough salvage value with a good running engine and a real good undercarriage which I needed for another machine. Plus it had good tight pins and bushings on bucket and arms and I figured I could swap that assembly on my other machine and not need a bunch of repair work there. We had to slap the final, track frame and track back on it good enough to roll onto a trailer. Fortunatly he had another machine we used to push it on our trailer. I got the thing home and used a bunch of parts off it to get my other cat up and producing revenue again. Mainly undercarriage parts. SO my partner and I have now decided to put this other machine back together. we have a real good idea of what we need parts wise and what the cost is gona be. we already have some of the stuff we need due to making some deals and collecting undercarriage parts. I have everything I need to put final back together and need the parts for the steering clutches. We figure all total we can get this machine back in revenue producing condition for about 5-6k. We think this is in our best intrest because when we are done we cannot buy a workable machine for this kind of money. As the machine sets now it is up on blocks (real red neck stuff) with no track frames on it. also LH final drive is disassembled and the steering clutch assembly is out of it. I have spent hours cleaning mud out of steering clutch case that puked in past inner pinnion seals into the clutch case. fortunately oil kept everything from rusting. I pulled the bottom plug on the case and used a cut down barrel and parts washer pump to help with cleaning. It worked great but I do need to do a final rinse and wash. Anyhow here is some pictures of when we went to pick it up
In this picture you can see the hole in the case that caused all the issues. I can tell someone else had worked on these finals before by the tell tale silicone use. I don't think whoever worked these final did a real good job and im not real sure they got the right bearings on the pinion shafts causing to much end play. I think this end play is what caused the bearing failure. I need to research that more but may need to pull RH final apart to get bearing part numbers.
No need for major surgery like that. Post the machine Serial Number and someone will get the Part Numbers for you.
I am sorry if I was not real clear on that thought. I meant pull the final drive apart to see what bearing is actually installed on the machine. It runs in my mind the parts guy at cat once told me there is three different bearings one could get for that pinion bearing. I need to ask him about that again. I am wondering if someone before me installed the wrong bearing causing the large amount of end play. something just isnt set up right somewhere and its causing issues with the brake drum mashing the innermost friction disk spline fingers over and even breaking some of them off. I will try to get a picture of one of these bad discs this morning. I really think this is the root cause for the pinion bearing to fail and trash out the case like it did.
Firstly the top pinion bearings are pin located in the outer case also the inner housing, it is possible to weld repair the outer case wear /damage and have it re-bored to standard spec' CAT have a jig for this repair that bolts to the case, the top pinion needs a small amount of end float if possible so the roller bearings are not under load on their roller ends, as for the bearing part numbers I would check also your pinion part number? the complete clutch in a photo would be good, also its best to join the track over the back sprocket for ease of working not with all that carry on you have in your snap, I like the Red Neck rim pull set, getting things to bits is easy sometimes? but its tricky to press things back together without the correct tooling, If you were in the U.K. I would soon press things back for you. good luck tctractors
TC thanks so much for the replies! I do know about the bearings being pin located. still if they are the wrong size it can cause to much end play. I need to look at it better and see if the pin location is somewhere short of the race bottoming in the bore. If so the doofus that worked on this before I did might have not known about the pin and drove them all the way to the bottom causing to much end play. Just a possibility I guess. On the weld repair of the case I very well thought of that as its cast steel and not cast iron so it will weld and is repairable. However I found a good used replacement case delivered to my door for $500 and have already purchased it. I did not think that to bad a price and dont think I could get it repaired much less than that. even if i could it wouldn't be but maybe a couple of hundred dollars difference and its worth it to me to have an unmolested case. I don't think the doofuses that shipped me that case and pulled the bearing races out knew about the pins. the plugs are still in the pin bores and still has a pin in it. I dont know how the hell they got the races out unless the pins sheared. I have new pins and plugs already. Here is a pic of the new case on a pile of the steering clutch cover and such. I do understand about the top pinion needing some float as the straight roller bearings just aren't meant for side loading. But how much is to much? It takes some end play to be able to get the pinion flange away from the drum to get steering clutch assembly out. again if its so much the inner most friction disc is floating outside of the drum and the fingers getting bent over then its to much. But where is the problem and thats the mystery. the bearings I bought and the pinion shaft I bought match the parts numbers called for in the parts book. I can disassemble the RH side and see what some other doofus installed but the LH side parts were all destroyed in this catastrophe and are well beyond any clues. I still have it all and can look at it better when I get a chance. Here is a couple pics of the inner most LH and RH discs that would disengage the drum with the excessive end play. notice the bent and missing spline teeth. as far as an assembled picture im far beyond that point as you can see by the pic of my steering cluch assembly on the pallet setting under my aircraft frame. On the track we kinda had to deal with it where it layed in the field and was short on options. I also preffer to button it up at the sprocket. The puller was borrowed from an old man that has been working on these back to the 70's. when we pressed the drive sprocket on our other machine we borrowed his other puller to install the sprocket. I had pulled the sprocket on our other machine to replace a duo cone seal that was cut to shreds from a wad of wire.
Here is a pic of the disc as it should be. I don't know why I couldn't post this on last post unless there is a limit to how many pics you can post in one posting. Also is a pic of the machine as it sets now.
Here is why I say some hack worked on this final drive. Notice the silicone indicating a hack was in it already. Also look at the pic of the bearing pin plug. notice the bore is plugged with silicone. When I took a pick and pulled the silicone out there was no pin installed to retain bearing. It looked like some jerkwad used a half inch drill bit to remove a 1/4" pin making the pin bore useless. Just more clues to the puzzle. I am thinking If I get this LH final back together with all new parts and it has much less end play then I really need to pull down the RH one and figure out what some hack messed up!
Well it was a rainy crappy day and didn't have much to do today. I had to hit cat dealer to get some bolts for a tooth shank for our other machine. I spent a good hour and a half talking to the parts guy who told me there were three different bearings that you could get for the pinion shaft on the outside case side. This is where a good experienced parts man is a very valuable asset. New parts guys just wouldn't know about this. There is in fact 3 different bearings and 3 different races you can get for this pinion. Reason is it has been changed and superseded 3 times since machine was built. The first change came only 1 year after this machine was built. When we called caterpillar support line we found that each bearing had a different width. the first bearing used was 25MM and the second one was 31MM with the third bearing measuring 35MM. each bearing needs the correct race that corresponds with the bearing. the bearing and race are not sold as a set. bearing and race are sold separately so it is very possible to get a parts man that dosent know any better and get a 31MM bearing with a 35MM race! This would definitely cause a problem of way to much end play. I don't know why cat dosent sell the bearing and race as a matched set eliminating the confusion and possibility for this screw up. From here I really need to pull apart my RH side final drive and see which bearings are installed. It must come apart anyhow as the pinion has to much end play. whatever is installed I need to install the correct race to its matching bearing width.
I agree on pulling both sides apart.Good luck
I agree with you about selling the race and bearing as a set, it would make things much easier. However it may be that in other applications any one of the 3 races (or bearings for that matter) might be paired with something different, hence selling as a matched pair might not be feasible. Regarding the 3 different bearings/races, is it something to do with the case or with the pinion, or both..? Does the selection of the correct bearing have to do with machine Serial Number as you appear to indicate above and what happens in the case of a machine that's had a case put on it from a machine from a different Serial Number range..? I agree with you that it has to be right so if you want to post a Serial Number I can get details of what mates with what and email them to you if you like.
I would think the pinion would also change if the bearings are changed spec' the bearings need to be fitted all the way home in the housings with the race fitted all the way home on the pinions, if I recall the pinion shaft seals through 2 shaft seals on the inner case as the back of the brake drum flange is some distance from the seal area, I would not think CAT would change the outer case main detail? to remove the bearings from the outer case don't be tempted to use a cutting torch as you will distort the case, I hack out the rollers then weld a strip of scrap to the roller path using this strip as an earth post, then run a bead or 2 of weld around the path, then let cool and lift free, the dowel thing is easy to sort by drilling the plug out 1/2" then screwing a little bolt in to the dowel and tug it, the flange to pinion press up I think is 15 to 20 ton the rim press target is 35 to 40 I think but can check? always go to the low targets first then check the distance spec' even on any torque tension settings always go for the low setting first and see how lock plates fit up, as it gives you scope to tighten more to fit the lock plates on the dead shaft etc. tctractors
I don't know guys i'm just going by what the parts man told me. I just need to get my RH final apart and look and measure. Nige is there anyway you can find out what the end play should be for the pinion shaft and flange when installed? Have any of you guys ever seen this much end play causing the issue with the clutch discs? The way this is all set up the end play to the outside of the tractor away from the steering clutches is going to be controlled by the outside pinion bearing and race. That just has to be where the deficiency lies.
I must say your logic regarding the end play is spot on from my perspective. If someone has rebuilt the finals with narrower bearings/races than what should be in there then the pinion end play will be excessive and by implication it will throw all the weight into the steering clutch assembly. Drop me a PM with the machine Serial Number and your email address. I'll see what I can dig up regarding Part Numbers and specficiations.
The best way I can describe the amount of end float you should have on your top pinion is "Just Noticeable" the usual top pinion seals are Duo Cone Seals that are on the common tractors like D6 D8 etc, these tend to hide pinion end float by their structure, your pinion seals with heavy duty Lip Seals that allow movement, when I build up a F/Drive I always check the the pinion " Fit " that is is it turning freely, then I check for lift and end float, D8's have lift and end float bit it is minimal, D6 tractors struggle to have end float or lift but need to turn freely with No seals (Duo-Cone) fitted, when this easy turning is found I then install the seals, so on your 955 F/Drive that I have done on possibly the total range 12A H/K/L I cannot recall any with end float worth a comment, it is minimal. tctractors
This may or may not help, Have my L manual but has K for final drive. The K manual states: Using 5F989 Plug, 5F9885 (threaded against the shoulder on the sprocket shaft), and a 5F9892 Pin, drive the sprocket shaft into the bevel gear case (with the key slot facing upward) until the distance between the face of the outer bearing cage holder (hand held in place on the taper or the sprocket shaft) and the parting line between the final drive case and the bevel gear case is 10.34 +/- .062 Install the sprocket shaft retainer nut and tighten securely. To lock in place drill a 5/16 hole through one of the notches in the nut through the nut and into the shaft to a depth of 1.14 in. Other words then : The distance between the face of the sprocket hub and the shoulder spline should be .12 +/- .06 Preload final drive bearings by turning the adjusting nut counter clockwise, apply torque of 1050+/- 150 ft lb Has pics
AllDodge, your detail is book correct but in practice the shaft must be located tight as these shafts spin in the case, all that measurement stuff is for after the dead shaft is clubbed home, the K and L series loaders are pre loaded in different style. tctractors
Tc that is pretty much what I thought on the end float. I will try to get a vid of the end float that I have on my tractor this weekend. I can put a dial indicator on it if need be and take pics.
A dial indicator reading of the end float would be a good idea IMO.
Should get a chance today to measure end float and take video. Also pour over the part numbers of my cases and the bearing I have already bought. Fortunately cat was real good about putting part numbers on their cast parts.
Here is the video of the pinion end play. I finally had a chance to do this today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJUlT3m6lsU
Having spent the duration of the video thinking about it, it occurs to me that as long as the bearings are within the races, the end float is irrelevant, though that does seem excessive. What is important here is the spacing of all the bits, and what has happened seems to be that the spacing erred to the outside far enough for one or two friction plates to come out of the grooves and catch the outside of the drum, thus thrusting the pinion out through the case. As a side note, I don't recall that style steering clutch needing any play in the flanges to remove, if they're in good order the whole clutch pack should slip in the grooves thus making the clutch unit a good bit narrower and you can pull it all out. Somebody correct me gently if I'm wrong?
The end float on that top pinion is way to much, its usually less than the lift so something is not correct within this area. tctractors
Yair . . . lantraxco. I have done many more Allis's than Cats but I think they all specified a stack height and a wear limit on individual plates . . . in other words plate count could vary and, conceivably, it would be possible to sneak in an extra plate or two and make the pack too wide. Normal procedure was to undo the clutch pack from the cross-shaft and slide it into the brake drum for removal. We used to move the machine forward with a jack under a grouser to access the bolts . . . worst part on those dry azz end Twenty ones was the sooty black asbestos ridden mess and the two rows of bolts holding the brake drum and the clutch had drilled heads and were wired. All the wires had to be removed before a modified ring spanner would grip the heads and then, going back in the wires had to be reinstalled with no room to twist and little room to see. I'll shut up now or I'll have nightmares in my sleep. (big grin) Cheers.
The OP and myself have been emailing on this one. The end float is 0.105" to which I replied that IMO that was probably about 0.100" too much. The lift was 0.033". If you remember the story the finals on this tractor were rebuilt before and a pinion poked it's way through one of the cases. Having looked at the Parts Manual online it would appear that the problem could potentially stem from someone using mismatched parts on a previous rebuild, or simply using a paper Parts Manual for an incorrect Serial Number range. To give members an idea, for the 9555L of Serial Numbers 85J4672-11762 (last built) there are no less than 12 different Serial Number ranges for the Final Drive. Within the 12 groups there are 5 different Part Numbers for the outer case, 2 different pinion Part Numbers, and a plethora of different bearing Part Numbers all of which are slightly different widths. Use all the parts that match the machine Serial Number and there should be no problem, don't and all bets are off IMHO.
My manual has the measurements for the stack height of the disc pack and we did measure that. The stack height did fall within specified range and there was the correct number of discs and steels. I think if all the part numbers are correct in my RH side then the bearings are probably in the process of failure. Once I get my RH side put back together with all correct parts I can see what end play is on the new parts. If it is correct that the RH side bearings are failing it then raises the question what made them fail? I have a bunch of work to get to the point I will know but I will get there nonetheless. lol
People tend to ignore final drives, if they even know there's a check plug there. Seen it way too often where they run low on lube and it's amazing how blue the gears and bearings will be before they finally give up. Just a guess, yours may be fine in that department.
Come to think about it, surely the only way you'll get excessive lift on that pinion shaft is if the bearings are on the way out, no..?
well the new bearing and race fit together real nice and it would be hard to see where it would have any slop to it at all. Today i spent pulling pads off of a 963 chain I bought to cut down to fit our 955. I have all of one chain done and 7 off the other chain. Making my old 1" impact and air compressor earn their keep lol. Trying to get all my outside work done so when it turns to crap i can pull stuff inside and work nice and warm with radio on and shop stove ablaze.
hey does anyone know do 963 Track bolts have a metric head? they seem smaller than 1-1/8" and bigger than 1-1/16". they kinda get stuck in the socket and its a bit of work to get em out. they are probably just diminished in size from use but not sure on that.
Some of my best memories revolve around an old shop smelling of old grease, working with rough men, and a roaring fire in a glowing orange barrel stove. It was good to be "The kid" then, shagging tools, scraping gaskets and feeding cord wood to the hungry fire, which was usually assisted with a bit of waste oil.
They're 3/4" NF thread. Should be 1-1/8" heads but as you say the heads are most likely worn down. If you have a 28mm metric socket handy that might work, it's a hair less than 1-1/8".
Disregard
Yair . . . That or a worn/loose spline maybe if it was measured at the flange? Cheers,
no shaft is definitely moving and it is in the bearings.
started working on this project again and while cleaning parts and installing bearings to get ready to put the LH final drive back together i noticed on the idler gear the bearing race was not completely seated on the shaft. I don't think this is the cause of the issue and the bearings on this gear were not chewed up. I just think it odd that this would have not been seated all the way and did not cause abnormal wear.
Any idea what caused the two marks on it..?
Ye know I really don't know. when we bought the machine the LH final was all disassembled and the track from laying off to the side. We took the gear out and it rode home with us in the back of a PU truck. we then put the final loosely back together without the gear installed and loosely installed track frame and track just to get it on the trailer and get it home. If I had to guess I would say its just from being moved around so much. In the airplane world we call it hangar rash. It is possible the mechanic before us tried removing the race with a punch before deciding they didn't want to spend the money to get the machine back up and running. Its just so hard to tell as there is so much ODD stuff on this machine. So far the purchase of it served our purpose of getting our other machine up and running. anything we can get out of this machine at this point is just a bonus. I just hate to see the old girl die though so I am going to take my best shot at getting her back together right!
I think I may have the wrong sprocket for the LH side. I show in my book I should have a 1V7873. What I have is 3V2093 which is part of the wide gauge arrangements which I do not have. the main difference is that this sprocket does not have the holes for the rivets to hold the guards on. I dont know that using this sprocket would cause the issues I have though. Looking at the parts diagrams I see why it does not have the holes for the rivets and the guards. the carriers and places where the duo cone seals mount are different and have this feature build in so no need for the extra guard riveted on. some dill hole welded the guards on my sprocket and did a sloppy job of it. If the only basic difference between these two part numbers is the holes for the rivets then I think I can make a spacer on my lathe out of wood to perfectly position the guard on the sprocket and use my mag base drill with a bit of fixturing and drill the required holes using the guard as a template. this way I should be able to get the holes perfectly straight. something just bugs the shoot out me to weld these on like they had them. Looking at the RH side I see the guards have rivet heads indicating that this RH sprocket may be closer to correct. Other than the fact some hack has welded the segments tot he sprocket! I really would like to find a complete steering clutch housing with finals that I could swing entire unit onto my machine.
It's a shame we don't live closer, might go in together for this guys 955 to get some parts off of. I need some guards, and who knows maybe some other stuff. My guess is this guy blew an engine or transmission and wants to part it out http://www.machinerytrader.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=8947707
I have seen this one listed many times. There is something wrong with the listing. I dont see any way that can be a 1981 machine with a D5 undercarriage. I dont think they were putting the D5 UC on them that late in the game. besides that it would have a different rops much like the 13x series machines. I think this to be a mid to early 70's vintage. Wouldnt work for me as i need one with the D6 undercarriage. I think the steering clutch case and finals are all different.