Hi there, hoping to get some help. I have a Cat D7F that we fired up at a job and it was blowing lots of white smoke, antifreeze. Loosened the radiator cap and the smoke went away instantly. Radiator gets pressure instantly. It now also burns about 2.5-3 gal of oil per day. Much more than the normal 1/2 -1gal per day. Do we have a cracked head instead of maybe a bad gasket? Anything else cause this stuff? Do we think the pistons/liners are OK and it's all in the upper end (head)? No water in the oil. It does have some condensation in the filler tube. I figured that came from water laden air in the engine from before we figured out to loosen the cap and allow the pressure to escape that way instead of that pressure build-up forcing water into the cylinder. As long as we keep our levels up is it OK to finish the job to not only make some $ for repairs but to get it closer to home? Thanks as always
Well if it was mine, I'd load it on a trailer RIGHT NOW. I just spend 25K on a D7H engine rebuild and it was running fine, just time to do it... You run the risk of wrecking the crank, cam or even the block and at that point you'd have a damn fine anchor.. just my two cents..... good luck with whatever you chose to do. Grampa
Loose rad cap may keep most of water out of engine, but may put oil in water if it's burning that much oil. Even burning 1/2- 1 gal oil per day sounds like plenty. Could be just a head gasket leak but fixting it won't stop oil consumption. I think I'm with Grandpa....time to stop and pull the head at least, but likely needs more. Overhaul parts for 3306's aren't that expensive.
Think a 7F has a D333t not a 3306, might be harder for parts dont know about the price difference. RDG.
At the least, crawl under it and crack the oil drain and see if water is getting in the pan.
Dont put any antifreeze in it. Straight water only. Wont ruin the bearings as quick that way.
Hi, we aren't getting any in the oil, that's the only reason we are still running it to buy some time. We have to put antifreeze in it up here in Michigan or we'll have bigger problems, this morning was-2 degrees. Thanks everyone
I believe you have a precup engine and that could be your problem. You could try putting the cap on and run till it smokes, then crack injectors and see if the smoke goes away on one cylinder. It's been a long time since I worked on one of those but from your description of the problem I would think you better get it looked at before working it any more. Pulling the head is a pretty simple job on those. When you get the head off check for cracks around the precup on the combustion side of the head. Another possible issue is a sunken liner. That usually puts water in the basement but sometimes it takes compression pressure to force it down and the water pressure is not enough. Good Luck!
Did anyone run it hot?Could have a cracked head and cooked rings.
I think the problem is different then that John, precup's seals or the lack of, would not explain the loss of 3 to 5 gallons of oil per shift. Could explain the white puffing and such,. Gramps
Thanks for all the info. An old mechanic said the same as the one fellow here. Crack between combustion chamber and valve? Was supposed to be somewhat common. And yes I do believe this machine got hot last fall. Hope it's in the head. The machine runs just great, and like everone, can't afford to be down. Can hardly afford to be "up". Its a good machine with a winch, anyone interested in buying it?! Also have a super nice haul truck I would give a nice package deal on? Thanks again everyone. If I don't sell these things when we get into the engine I'll post what we find.
MattR If you decide to repair it and need a head I am pretty sure I know where there is one that shouldn't brake the bank to bad. I wish you were closer I love big broke machines lol.
Me too.Send it to me and I'll get it going.Might take a while.I realy like the ones that has been sitting a few years.Then everyone tells you nope it will never run.
Oh, I'm definetly repairing it. We are in the dirt moving business and need it or sell it and replace it. We use it daily. We have been through engines, trans and so on before but don't claim to be the worlds best. I am just getting tired of cold weather wrenching and may sell it. Someone would get a nice crawler with maybe just some head work. It does run great. Not certain but isn't the D333 and the 3306 darn near the same? The head may be the same part even. What kind of condition and money is the head you have 250c?
Matt I worked on a number of d7f that the army had, all had 3306 engines. If my memory serves me right the 333 had a spacer between the block and head. I have several engine cores with heads on them and I did have a new head minus valves but I'll have to check on that. I'd rather trade something if it goes that far. PM me your# if you would like to talk it over.
Forgive me for being text and computer illiterate, not sure what PM means. But my # is 906-395-7015, trading something is always good for me. I have done alot of business that way that I couldn't have done otherwise. Trading is easier that coming up with cash it seems. When money gets into our account it is gone within a few minutes! Sad but true. Sometimes one wonders why you fight. Must enjoy it still somewhere inside. Thanks
No spacer plate fitted to 333C/T engines, spacer plate fitted to the later 3306, the 3306 started off without the S/plate PC style, then gained the S/plate also changing to DI.
Tctractor your living proof that my mind is getting old lol. MattR I left you a phone message.
Hi there 250C. Sorry a bit late on the #'s. We had an unexpected death. My book says we indeeed have a 3306 not the D333. I have not been to the machine recently, but my operator could not find #'s on the head casting. I will look myself as soon as I can and get back to you. I am also going to get to checking on some tires for you. thanks alot, Matt
What's the Serial Number of the tractor, better still the engine number ..? Options for the prefix are 61G, 93N (direct drive) & 94N (powershift). In fact 93N & 94N appear to also be engine Serial Number prefixes also. Check the cylinder block LH side rear just in front of the flywheel housing for the engine Serial Number plate which is generally riveted on to the block. The Engine # should also be stamped on the block in the same location even if the plate is missing. Given that as a starting point we can narrow down the options a heck of a lot. Cylinder head casting number could well be underneath the valve covers.
The tractor serial # is 94N 2422. It appears my head part # is 1P4303, according to the book. Thanks for the help.
Mattr, reading all the post's you have put up regarding this engine, I would be shutting down the beast before it fires a rod out the side of the block, the first worry is the amount of oil being lost, the engine only holds just over 6 Gallons (imp), so its telling you its had its lot, the head will need if its not cracked the big rework, thats valves, guides, rotor coils and springs, etc, even in the U.K. we would do this style repair as the head components are fairly cheap and the way to go, then there is this oil consumption snag, well if it "aint leakin it its usin it" so you can bet on the pistons being time up, so you will need new pistons and liners plus 2882 rod bearings, the cam followers will need checking firstly by eye then the lift hight 330 in is near enough, then the coolers will need stripping and cleaning, the water hoses will suffer with the cylinder gas inclusion and might well have turned hard requiring replacement, this bit of work should take about a week to sort on site, allow a day extra if the counterbore needs sorting, the pre combustion chambers would also need re-sealing and position setting, this is about 2 hours work when the head is off the tractor, if you have had the D7 for a reasonable time and all the rest of the beast is good, its worth poking the effort in to bring things upto scratch. In a year I would rebuild about 6 of these engines 3304-6 and 333's they are very easy to do at very low cost, there is plenty of N.O.E. parts about, I.P.D. and Mahle are good, all the parts that people think are made in Italy are now nearly all made in China, including plenty of CAT parts, but I see no benefit from flogging a dead horse, all you are doing is damaging it. wishing you all the best of luck, tctractors. p.s. the cracked head thing is not that common on the 333-3306
Thanks for the info. I have to ask though, wouldn't it burn the extra amount of oil if it was possibly only a head issue? Wouldn't it be leaking into the top of the piston through say a cracked head and burning it that way? Not saying we don't have the piston/liner issues, just trying to be hopeful and get all the bases talked over with you knoweledgable people, because I am not. We will know when it comes apart. Yep, we are gambling and running it. We keep the levels up and it sounds and runs as good as ever. We have about 4-5 days to go and we'll be bringing it home. Risky for someone that has as crappy luck as me! Figure it has to change sometime, I hope. Thanks
Confirmed. 1P-4303 is the correct cylinder head assy Part # for your engine but it's now replaced by another number that unfortunately I can't see on my system. Price is $2250. If you wanted a Reman head As for it the Part # is 0R-1079, if you wanted a Reman UTN (Upgrade to New) head the Part # is 0R-2151. Price $1785 Actually there is a "Classic" Part # 242-3434 also available. It's way cheaper than either new or Reman. Price $1150. Plenty of stock available in N. America. Prices at your local dealer may vary.
Hi, Good info. Your #'s are right on to what FABCO Cat told me. BUT---they said I will never find one, at least not through Cat. They gave me a fax # for a deaf fellow that is supposed to be the head guru. All this seems odd. Nige are you a dealer and have these? Also, 250C are you out there? Do these #'s look like something you may have? Thanks
I don't work for a Cat dealer now (used to not long ago) but I can get into their systems to a certain extent - not as much as I used to be able to but enough to see most things. The Classic Part Number 242-3434 is showing as being in Stock (Qty 1) at Cat's Regional Warehouse in Miami for immediate shipment. If I put in a need for 5 heads I see one in the Regional Parts Warehouse in York PA, and one in the Central Parts Distribution Facility in Morton, IL. Either one of the last 2 locations I would have thought would be good for you. Hope that helps.
Matt I did get to my old shop today and the head is right where I left it I forgot to take a flashlight with me so I have to go back tomorrow and see if I can find a part #. Nige I wonder if the classic # is just the bare casting? (thats what I have)
The book I have shows that 94N2422 should still be the D333c not the 3306 which came in at serial #5192?
MattR, you are getting some great help via the other posters, with good system knowledge, anyhow back to that oil thing, I have never found a crack in a cylinder head cause oil loss, so I would say its in need of a bit of work piston wise,the down side with running something that is sick, it makes things a whole lot sicker, the area that is causing the coolant problem is just eating away metal, I myself love it when owners run their sick tractors to the point of Stop, its how I earn my coins, but often the few extra hours work gained is not worth the extra repair costings, things in general are fairly tight for near everyone $$$ wise, so I can understand your position trying to keep it rolling, at the moment you dont need a cylinder head its a dose of luck, the chamber seals usualy fail before the head cracks so luck might be about.
Valve guides or valve stem seals can let a lot of oil through when they go, so you might be lucky regarding pistons. What do you think, Tony?
I am getting more help than ever planned, thank you. Mr. tctractor, if we have piston issues, why do we get such instantanious pressure in the radiator? This engine identifying is getting fun. My book claims it to be a 3306. I called Cat and they said the same. My brother works at a large mine, he checked their fancy Cat affiliated computer database and found it to be a 3306 as well--BUT-- many others, including large engine suppliers and repair shops say it is as Rusted stated, a D333. I will have to try to find more info on the block.
Even if you have horrendous blowby past your pistons/rings each cylinder will still generate huge amounts of pressure when the diesel fuel combusts, only some of which gets past the piston rings. This is what is pressurizing your radiator. We just had a 3516 engine blowing coolant clear out of the radiator like a geyser, finally traced to cylinder #10 - this engine has 1 head /cylinder. Root cause was nothing more than a single water ferrule (one of 8 in the head for that cylinder head) that had failed, thus allowing compression into the cooling system. I am checking the Cat on-line Service Information System, so hopefully it's the most up to date information available. For the D7F tractor 94N it gives me 2 Serial Number ranges - 94N1-5191, and 94N5192-Up. If I select 94N1-5191 the system then gives me engine Serial Number breaks of 94N1-1691, 1692-2102, & 2103-Up. For all those groups the 5S-6687 Cylinder Head & Valve Mechanism is common, and the 1P-4303 Cyl Head As (242-3434 Classic Part #) is the correct cylinder head for the engine S/N 94N2422 which is a 3306 according to the book.
Check the Parts Books. My 3306 Vehicular Engine book (Form #UEG0821S) (10-76) shows the D7F coming in at s/n 94N5192 to 94N7184, engine arrangement #2P6806, engine serial number 3N1 to 3N15868. I also have the D7F tractor parts book (Form #UEG07358) that comes in at 94N5192 to last built. Prior to this would be a D333cT....often lumped in with the 3306 as they are pretty similar in a lot of parts.
I'm using UEG0234S on-line for D7F 94N1-5191. Originally published 01/Dec/1979 & updated 29/Sep/2011. My apologies, after having checked the later Serial Number range of D7F (94N5192-Up) that is a spacer-plate 3306 engine. The earlier serial machine up to 94N5191 the engine is a D333. I was going on an illustration that was not the best quality, but when I looked at both one after the other it was easier to see that the earlier engine was in fact a D333. Apologies for any confusion. However the Part Numbers (1P4303, 242-3434, 0R-1079, 0R-2151) I gave in my earlier post earlier are for the correct Cyl Head As to fit the D333 engine, so they were good numbers despite me making the error over the engine model. In fact I also found a Service Magazine for the D333 Vehicular Engine that listed the 1P-4303 Head As.
MattR, the water pump position would tell you instantly if it was 3306 or 333c, but it realy does not change anything, as they are so near the same motors, you will be undoing the same amount of bolts in the same chunks, the valves are shorter in the 3306 by about 1/8th", so the changes are very small so we are still on the correct path, the cylinder head components wear out at about the same rate as all the other bits that fly about, if I have an engine that has a failed gasket but known to be generaly a good runner, then I would stick a new gasket into it, I would consider 1 gallon of oil a week being used by this size engine to be on the starting blocks for a pull-down, if it was using 2 U.S. gallons a week it would be coming to bits, your instantainious pressure is the sure sign it should not be running, the valve faces on the duff cylinder will be pitted, the cylinder head will be scaling in rust layers, please post a few pic's of the repair as this might be interesting, in Shop talk there is a 333C and a 3306 engine that I have patched up in the last few months that might be worth a peep.
Pedant mode on ........... Tony, I agree 100% with the statement that the work involved to tear down and rebuild is the same, but respectfully point out that if Matt goes the route of buying new parts (or even tries to souce used ones) to fix his problem then in that respect the 2 engines need different cylinder head part numbers - if the cylinder head is in fact the problem. Other associated parts are also different numbers. Pedant mode off .......
Nige, I never said the engines are identical, the rod design has changed about 6 times from the 333C to the DI 3306, I did indicate a small hight thing with the valves, I could list all the changes if needed as I have a 333c plus a 3306 head on my bench at this moment, MattR will get the correct bits I am sure, CAT part No's change like the weather, often due to the simplest detail change that would have little to no effect, on the fettling of these engines, as I said its the same bolts, in the same location, undone in the same way with the same spanners, so Nige I would not get to "High Tech" on old iron its a 4"3/4 bore motor with the same "Daddy" making both of them, plus you dont need any Metric spanners.
Matt I finally got back down to the old shop new head that I have has a part # of 7n8516. That should be for a spacer plate engine.
7N-8156 services to 8N-1187 which is the head part number for the 3306 engine with a spacer plate used in the higher series of D7F 94N05192-Up.
What does a cheaply made chineese made water pump have to do with this? Are you just spam?