in our area one of the biggest consumers of blades are county road departments. they have hundreds of miles of roads to maintain and snow to remove. the operators in at least three counties that i work closely with hate the m series. i think they mostly don't like it during the winter when they are plowing snow or traveling at full speed long distance. many of the operators have petitioned for deere machines and some have quit or retired after cat m's were bought. what does the rest of the world feel about the m?
The only ones I can really speak to are the 24Ms. The operators here hate them, they have regular steering problems, and are grossly underpowered. Another big problem is how hard they are to keep control of when conditions are slippery.
that's exactly what these road maintenance people are saying. i guess there are a lot of little computer type glitches too.
Here, we still mostly use the G series. no computers, easely maintained, repaired, simple machine. H series is new for us. Dont like it as Gs M, I saw one , dont like it , dont think ever will. The simpler the better.
Some people like them, some people don't. most of the bugs are worked out and now the operators who i have spoken with really do like them and prefer them over the old style. I am not an operator but have played with most graders and i find the M series easier. I guess the new generation of operators will like them and the old skool operators will just keep on using the old graders.
i tried a new m series a year ago and every thing seems to come natuarly on the joy sticks.my only issue was the steering . to use this machine on site up to 4th works great but roading and plowing in higher gears just wasnt comfortable. this problem i quess has been corrected some what. ended up with a870g deere also very nice machine . my opinion only
Believe it or not, you do get used to the joystick steering. I started out on a Cat #12 8T, moved on to a Wabco 440H, then a 1974 140G (no diff, no tip, tall cab), a new 1984 140G, a new 1997 143H, and in 2009 a new 140M AWD. I jumped into the M with an open mind, not knowing exactly how I would feel about the radical change in blade and machine control. As with any new piece of equipment, it takes time to get comfortable, getting the machine to do what you want it to do. I always think of the moldboard as a ruler in my hand, and it is my job to take that ruler and control how it moves material. A good operator can make even a difficult job look easy, and a not-so-good operator can make an easy job look like it was finished with a case of dynamite. Attitude AND ability, you have to have both to be a good operator. If you don't want to like the joystick controls, you won't like them. If you decide that you do like them, you will really enjoy the M-series. smoothoperator...9000 miles forward, 350 miles reverse last year
I think this was discussed in an earlier thread. I think what it boils down to is this..old school operators are not the least bit intimidated by an "m" series grader. Probably if the truth was known they would find the new technology very easy to get used to...remember they already know what can be done with a grader and have lots of experience behind them. All they want with these new style graders is to be able to do the work that they are used to doing. If things don't work right as suggested in these posts, then that's frustrating for a grader operator. I tried an "m" for a bit and found it very easy to operate, and I'm about as old school as they get. If I operated it for longer period of time and found it had many problems, and I was having difficulty achieving the quality of work that I'm used to..then I would opt for an older grader. Remember years ago there would be days when I would come home after grading all day and all you could see is my eyeballs and teeth as I would be caked with dust. Not to mention the sore back and aching wrists. Those were the days.. lol M series? ...piece of cake..lol
I have to fully agree with the last two postings about the new 'M' series grader. I am currently operating a 160M series grader and have approximately 3000 hrs of time on this machine doing road maintenance for a County in western Canada. I have been operating a grader for 20 years doing many different tasks and have found that the 'M' series grader better for doing certain tasks than a grader with a steering wheel. A good example is blading the flares on a road that intersects with another road going in another direction. With these new graders I find it so easy to blade around these 90 deg. corners because you can control the blade and steer at the same time without moving your hands all over to control the steering wheel and the blade control levers. My beat has a 4 lane major highway going through it and I regularly road the machine in high gear to wherever I am working. No problems with steering as Cat has worked all the little glitches out of these machines. Like every machine there are small annoyances that are found but as with every other machine I have operated I work with them instead of letting them 'get' to me. These machines do what they are made to do and will do a good job. I asked a Cat guy once why they went with the lever steering instead of staying with the old steering wheel. He told me that the average grader operator was 58 - 60 years old with about 20 years experience ( I fit right in here)!! They went with the lever steering as they thought it might be easier to train younger people to operate graders as it is somewhat like a video game. The old style with all the levers they found was a bit intimidating for these younger guys. Anyway this is what I have experienced and I thought I would share it with you guys. I found this forum a couple of months ago and really enjoy reading the posts and have even learned a few things. Thanks!!! Cheers Al
Thats a real good write up Al. Thanks for sharing your experience and welcome to the forum!
I have head of a lot of complaints about the M as well. Several have had engine swaps in our area. I am glad to hear the bugs are getting worked out. It's funny to hear about those switching to Deere graders. They may be happy now, but Deere has introduced their new fanggled fly by wire machine too. Now that Cat has it worked out we can all switch back to them while Deere fixes what ever issues that surface on their graders.
i think the big sales pitch from deere is that they left the steering wheel in for travel and plowing.
Picked up my new 140M last week so far I realy like it. I ran a 140G for 13 years and a 14H for 11 years (county road maintenance). My question is do you guys like the centering on the steering joy stick, I talked to the cat mechanic he said some operators have it remove and like it better. I seem to fight it but have to keep reminding myself I only have 24 hrs on the machine. THANKS
Centering on the joy stick depends if the machine stays straight or if it tends to wander right or left. Of the two m's I have operated one seems to run straight when the joy stick is centered but the other one and it is the one I operate regularly will run to the right if the joystick is centered. I have overcame this by running the joystick a bit to the left to counteract this but it is a pain. I asked the cat mechanic if this could be corrected and he said no but maybe I can get them to take out the centering to correct this! Thanks for the info!!! Cheers Al
AND they still offer a machine with the "antler rack" controls. They didn't put all their eggs in one basket like CAT. I have 1600 hrs on my 140M and have gotten used to it for gravel maintenence, but the C7 just ain't got it. It also takes more fuel than my 140H did. I ran one of our 140H's for a few days last week and still felt very comfortable in it and I actually covered a few more miles. I've pushed the M to the limit plowing snow and just can't keep up to the H's. The M has some nice features, but if you look at the bottom line, it was a very spendy move (lower production + higher fuel consumption). 25yr. operator.
There's a repower program to replace the C7 with a C9 on some machines.
I would like that, but I believe that is only on the AWD models.
Our township ran a 140M doing snow and gravel for 3 years, that machine was far more productive than the H we traded off. A township about 10 miles away bought a 140M a year after ours did (they actually called and asked my opinion at the time) and they were disgusted as heck with it, the dealer eventually tracked down a computer glitch. Tires were and still are a significant performance factor. The 140M here was better on fuel than the H. We traded for a 140M AWD machine returned from a winter lease, with the C9 engine swap, and 17.5" tires, looking good so far, this winter will tell some more of the story.
We are on our second batch of 14M ( 5 machines, trade every 2 years) and these machines are far superior to the first ones that we got. For a change, I can concentrate on the rest of the fleet and not spending all my time on the graders. The operators really like the newer ones and almost all of the previous issues have been fixed. They steer better, inching pedal actually modulates, trannyand final drives are a lot smoother. Still some minor issues with moldboard lift circuits but I'm confident that it will be solved. Ask your service reps to do calibrations on the hydraulics and steering once in a while : makes a big difference.
I think between the service reps and engineers, they've spent as much time with the machine as I have. There was even a couple engineers out from Peoria to adress the fuel/hp problem, but I've not heard anything or seen any updates since then (at least a couple of months ago). But alas, I'm just an operator so I may be the last to know. I would like to try an AWD or the other size tires or both, but I think I'm stuck with this one for another 4 yrs. Adressing the steering complaints, one engineer told me that it worked "just as it should". I asked if he put the blade and wing down...."Oh no, I just know how to DRIVE them !! I told him a little side draft may change his evaluation.
when the county road department here went to "m's" they had two go from 10 machines to 12 in order to do the same work as the older series cat graders.
Depending on how you do the math, I think what you are saying is that county is 20% more productive with the Cat H, or 17% less productive with the M. I guess I can't understand how you could be less productive with the M. Were there other changes done while switching? Operators? Working hours? Taxpayer expectations? I have operated G's, H's, and now an M, and I can't think of any operation that takes longer with the M. BUT, I have been wrong before. smoothoperator....recommended by 4 out of 5 doctors
I've operated motorgraders for over 22 years blading mountain fire roads. I recently rented the 140M for a job on a very narrow steep winding fire road and found the 140M very frustrating. First the cab is way to small, I can't even fit my lunch box anywhere. You'll bump your head when you get in, it's got this wierd cab ceiling. If you do alot of windrowing of material you'll find the heel very hard to see clearly, the joysticks are in the way. You'll have to have the blade almost straight to see the heel without lurching your body forward. The cab widows are angled but don't really give you more blade visibility just more of the circle. Also the blade lifts conceal the front wheels and for my work I must see where my wheels are going. The steering is downright scary and I feel dangerous! especially when roading the machine. I found myself constantly zig zaging. It feels way down on power, I kept stalling it over and over. I could see some plusses with not having to remove your hands for blade control and I had mastered the joysticks by the end of the first day. But I feel Cat blew it with this machine! The joysticks may be the future but this machine in my opinion has serious design flaws. Cat always had the sleekest looking machines on the job site but this thing is UGLY! It may be OK for blue tops in the flats but keep it out of the mountains! I'll keep renting the 140H even though the local Cat dealer keeps offering free days just to get it out of the yard.
I,m with you on most of that, but you do learn how to get in and out of the cab after a while.
Somebody up in Canada has been apparently getting a few new 24Ms. In the past few weeks, I've passed 4 different Mullen trucks in Wisconsin hauling brand new ones.
To be honest guys it just takes alot of practice to get good at the steering on these things. I am very comfortable roading this machine but have spent alot of hours in one. You have to hold the joysticks with a very loose grip. With joystick steering you tend to want to over correct yourself on steering. As for looks I think these machines look very sleek!
Over 150 24M's delivered world wide so far .. Not bad ..
The steering has been updated twice and the new steering flash transitions through the gears very nice. One issue that some operators have is that the friction packs in the joysticks are to tight causing the operator to use more force when modulating the joystick wich tends to leave the operator feeling like he may over correct. In my opinion the looser the friction pack the easier it is to steer. I use the old workshop saying that a blunt tool is more dangerous than a sharp tool to back up my theory. A second issue that could hinder confidence is that 90% of the M series could probably use an articulation calibration by a trained person. Most machines articulation sensors are calibrated to the articulation lock pin wich could cause the machine to be up to a full two degrees out of cal. If driving behind the grader 2 degrees will be almost a full tire width offset from eyeballing itnwith the rear tandems This will cause the machine to constantly veer off the road when the steering joystick is in the center detent. I have ran the M series with and without the center detent, it really makes no difference to me, but with a fine tuned M series the detent shouldnt be a problem. The only thing that removing the detent does is that it covers up the articulation sensor being poorly calibrated. When an operator drives an M series especially at high speeds he naturaly wants to hold the steering stik in the detent. On apoorly calibrated M series he will always have to counter steer slightly or he will always be bringing the machine back to what he feels should be straight causing him to make excessive steering corrections. As far as power goes a the 140 M has a 3 liter smaller displacement engine tha the 140H. With changes in emmision regulations the good ole days having a huge heavy engine giving you that low end tractor lugging ability are coming to and end. You can thank your congress for that one. On the brightside the new 140 Ms are coming out with C9 engines Awd and tandem. If you are running an M with a C7 or a C6.6 what you can do is just simply set your cruise control button to the bottom side and then tap your throttle switch up to about 1100 rpm to prevent stalling at low rpm when hydraulics are in use.
Never had any complaints regarding the Joystick detent .. Theres allot of PIP's going on at the moment ...
Very informative post !! I always felt that my stick was too "tight", but no one ever told me it could be changed.
Get rid of the detent and you can steer a whole lot straighter. I have a 140m awd and this past winter only had to back up about 6 times to get through some drifts but it sure likes it fuel. Plowing snow I average 7.5-8 gallons an hour, road grading 5.6-6 gallons an hour. Fuel consumption goes down grading in 5th gear at about 1300rpms compared to 4th gear 2100rpms both gears traveling around 6 mph.
Just to be clear on the detent, removing it eliminates the need for perfect articulation calibration as someone else mentioned. Removing it also helps when there is crown on the road. Just like in your truck, you're always making small steering corrections for wind or road crown. Operators would fight in and out of the detent making these corrections, then go back to the detent position thinking the machine would go stright. It does help most operators to have it removed. All machines coming out of the factory are now detentless. hotroder49er, your fuel consumption is a little higher than I've seen. You must work the machine pretty hard. I see in another post your running a 16' blade, which I can understand uses more fuel. Do you run that year round? Out of curiocity, are you using the monitor in the cab to check fuel consumption?
Run 14ft blade in winter months and no not using monitor for fuel consumption. But it is pretty accurate on how many gallons used in a day. Also should have stated that I'm grading in pretty hilly territory 7% to 9% grade.
All i can say about Series Ms is PASSSSSSSS wanna know more mssg me P.S. "DONT BUY ONE"
To add to that Cat were the BEST no comparison. ( my opinion now is TONKA TOYs DESIGN is THE BETTER ) ( KOMATSU DID WHAT CAT SHOULD HAVE DONE ) Over N Out.
I am a 20 year grader operator. This is my forth year in my 140m and I love it. 95 percent of the time I am finish grading. The only thing I don't like is the clutch in reverse. I have a little plate mounted on my ripper bar and we do parking lots with a lot of corners. If I back in hot and jam on the breaks when my helper says stop then it's good. If I stop short and have to back up a little it's tough. The steering is a total non issue. I have the detent and it is not perfect but doesn't bother me grading or roading. I grade around a lot of manholes and valves and I think I can see a lot better. I wheel roll a lot of edges with green concrete and seeing where the front tires are is no problem. As far as operator comfort, The seats keep getting better, the M is better than an H and the H was light years better than the G's and heat and AC are far superior. I remember running our G's and when you graded with the wind all the engine heat would end up in the cab and when you were going onto the wind I would freeze. When ever I get in one our H's now it feels like a dinosaur. As for fuel and I don't get higher than third much finishing it's pretty good on fuel. AS for plowing snow I don't know, as I go to Mexico for the winter. Later Mike
Just came across this thread. We run 3 x 16Ms. Everything that's been posted above I would agree with to a point. My comments from a maintenance & specification standpoint are these: - 1. As usual for the 21st Century the customer gets a half-developed machine and does rest of the development work in the field. I feel sorry for those who got a really early machine if our first 2 were anything to go by. Each one was in the dealer shop 6 weeks for a Bundled Upgrade Program that involved at total of 26 Product Programs, more than half of which were Safety or Priority. We did however get a loaner machine while this was done. 2. We have 2 machines with Serial numbers close together, a 3rd over 1 year newer. The 3rd one has had much less Product Programs on it that the first 2 had, so maybe there is light at the end of the tunnel. Let's hope it's not a train coming the other way..! 3. Operators like the increased visibility resulting from the removal of the "antler rack" and the new cab design with the angled doors. One point though, get whoever's buying to specify the access ladder/platform option instead of just steps. It makes window cleaning so much easier. 4. Lots of modifications to steering (software & hardware) because of the ECM throwing errors and operators shutting machines down. Getting the steering joystick to synchonize with the wheels is an art you learn. I always advise operators to park the machine with the front wheels off-centre, that way the joystick picks up first time. 5. Because of "smaller" engines and lack of engine braking (who remembers 3406 engines in 16G/H fondly?) brakes tend to burn up. 16M now come with an exhaust brake as standard. We had ordered them anyway. 6. Tandem oil viscosity is critical because of braking issues. We went down from SAE 50 TO-4 to SAE 30 TO-4 (kinda counter-intuitive) and got a distinct improvement in oil analysis results. 7. You MUST use SAE 60 FD-1 oil in the circle drive if you want it to live. 8. At the moment we are battling transmission issues. We have had 3 transmission failures, one on a transmission rebuilt in the delaer shop less than 500 hours previously. 9. Because we have so many other machines on site with major quantities of electronics on them we have the capacity to work on and diagnose problems in that area and it doesn't worry us. If anything else comes to light I'll post it here.