Not sure what happened but it could be related to joystick steering.
One last picture.
The bridge doesn't look too wide. Maybe the blade caught something hard, and pushed it to the left, and over the edge?
I hope it was the dang joystick steering! Cat has some work to do on theses things before I'm going to get past 5'th gear on 'em.
Oh this looks worse that when a Champion hits a bridge!
Anyone hurt? Hopefully not. As far as the grader goes.. maybe it will buff out...:beatsme
I tend to agree, there is a lot of blade sticking out its right hand side and at the right angle to do exactly as you suggest :IMO I cant say I am impressed with ROPS or maybe that is part of its impact crumple zone :beatsme
Id be willing to bet he tried to steer to the right with the wrong joystick in a moment of brain fade or panic and side shifted the blade right instead which didnt help his situation any and the blade caught the far side and pushed him over the edge. As for the rops, could be a bit tougher than that couldnt it. Thats not a long drop but i suppose with momentum it would be quite a jolt nonetheless.
stupid joysticks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! joysticks are for excavators... not graders..
When I started in construction in the 80s I actually met a few old timers who didn't like joysticks in excavators. Some of the old men missed the old cable machines with clutches and brakes.
ROPS = "Roll Over Protection Structure", not "Falling Ten Feet From A Bridge Protection Structure". I thing it did a pretty good job and if the poor guy was wearing his seatbelt, he hopefully walked away in not too bad shape. (Apart from his pants)
"FTFFABPS"? It just doesn't roll off your tongue like "ROPS" does either...
uh, boss. nevermind, just mail my check.
I believe this happened in Iowa according to the email I saw. I hope this guy is O.K. I wish we had more details of what happened, anyone from that area? Cass County if Im not mistaken.
From what I have heard the accident was caused from what cat calls "cross talk" in the joysticks....where you are performing one function but another in the same joystick reacts...(not sure if it was the blade or the steering in this case) I was ripping with a 140M across a large field and my blade dropped and I didn't even ask it to. The operator was OK no injuries, other than what he did to the seat from what I have heard. Have heard of some other counties parking the M's for snow clearing due to the operators inability to maintain control....also county in AZ supposedly is attempting to send back their 4 M's for similar reasons.... too bad
And it might just as easily not be related to joysticks. Until someone comes forward with facts of this accident, I don't think it's fair to anyone for us to speculate on the cause. My hope is the operator is OK and whatever the cause of the accident it is easily resolved not to happen again.
I agree. I would like to see a documented report myself. Of all places for something to happen though...a darn bridge! From the looks of the back ground I would assume it wasn't a short trip. If it was a failure, why did it have to happen on the bridge. Makes me wonder if it may have been just operator error.
Well .. Hope the OP was ok ... I agree that there could have been Multi reason's why the grader ended up there. Could have been Human Error .. Could have been a mechanical/Electrical Fault. I think it's highly unlikley a Steering Callibration trip fault caused this. There is only one kind of event that would throw the wheel's hard left but in the pic's the steering is straight'ish, After this Event the wheels would be locked left. Again .. I dont want to Add to the What if and Maybe debate .. Hope the Guy walked away .. just my 2c EDIT: Never heard of Joy-Stick cross talk ..
Upon looking at it some more...I wonder if the operator wasn't just concentrating on not hitting the right guard rail with the blade, and took his eyes off the left edge of the bridge?
The marker post on the left side of the bridge as the operator approached the bridge is still in place The edge of the bridge on the side where the grader went off shows a severe blade scrape which runs over 1/2 the length of the bridge. The grader has a blade extension on the right side. Powdery snow built up on the back side of the moldboard means the machine had been moving at high speed. Probability of operator error more likely than machine malfunction. If steering wheels are so great why did CAT put supplemental steering systems on the H graders?
Fair comment, :thumbsup :lmao :naughty
I might as well add to the speculation..As noticed he had alot of blade sticking out on the right hand side. Notice as well that he never touched the right marker or rail. So with that much blade to his right and if his approach on the bridge was center, then he would have taken the right rail. So..he was obviously to far to the left as he started into the bridge. His right hand side of the blade could have caught on the bridge approach sending the back end to the left and off the bridge.
Landing on the side of the blade like that would shove the blade all the way to the right, and could even cause the table to rotate.
Oh, you could be right. Looks to me though that from the cab back took the blunt of the blow, suggesting that the back end hit first. I could be all wrong though..:beatsme As well take a look at the last picture. The light snow is still stuck to the moldboard. This tells me it never hit hard enough to shove the blade to the right.
I cant stop thinking about how loud it had to be in that cab when all that metal was bending and all that glass breaking.
That laid back cab is not bent, it is just the new low profile cab design for the M series. LOL Pure speculation, but the blade is shifted right, and the front wheels are steered slightly left. It is possible the operator momentarily forgot which hand does what, and steered left off of the bridge while trying to shift the blade left to miss the right side of the bridge. Just my thoughts after seeing the results. I am still waiting for a chance to run a "M" series. Been in the simulator, but it just is not the same.
What a shame! :Banghead Looks like me might not have a job to return to after that little mishap.
he swerved to avoid hitting a dog. at least thats the excuse i would use
Operator is OK, just dinged up a bit.
Sooo...do you know the background info too? What did happen?
Ouch.... that was an expensive fall!!! Hope the operator is doing well!
A CAT field mechanic I meet last summer, working on our 16M, said; Joystick is way better than classic multi-lever cause they give more comfort cause the orperator doesn't move his shoulders. Good idea but....need more progress! Frenchy
Just an update. I had a discussion (that never happened) with a Cat tech person about this incident. The preliminary report is only describing the incident but the likeliness of joystick cross talk is slim next to none because of the redundancy system built in the system ( 3 on the joystick and 2 on the steering cylinder). The system is design to log 7 seconds prior and post whenever an alarm or failure is recorded. Cat, as expected, is heavily involved in the investigation and I'm sure they will release the info once it's available....
Thanks for the update
Has anyone seen any pictures of an H or G series, having that kind of accident?
We just got our first 16M at my work. I had to train myself on it and then train operators off of each crew on it. It is one tricky machine. With so many functions attached to one lever, it's easy to do too much. The only blade controls on the left steer stick are your up and down for that side of your blade. the rest of your blade controls are on the right stick. The left stick mostly controls the transmission, articulation and steering. The steering on these things are very responsive. for every inch of stick movement you get 10 degrees of wheel turn. When you bring the steer stick back to center, the wheels come with it just as fast as you move the stick. It is easy to over compensate and over correct the steering on these machines. If the operator on this blade was adjusting the left side of the blade and accidently move the steering, his automatic reaction would probably have been to counter steer, and if done too quickly and over react, it can send you into a ditch (or over a bridge ) pretty easily. With these machines, to learn "machine control" is a mis-leading statement. "Self control" should be your main focus. If on operator relies on his/her own reaction instead of pre-action, with the M model blades, not only will he/she never be a good operator on it but could be quite dangerous to be around when he/she is on it. When training our operators, I required atleast a 12 hour shift out of traffic and in plenty of room to work before sending them into normal operating conditions. Tracksoup71
Here's a pic of our new 16M Grader. So far, I'm loving it.
Exactly , I have no desire to run one , tryin to relearn something you already know with different controls dont make much sense to me ointhead, even if the machine is supposed to be more comfortable
When we got our first stick steer 992, the second operator to get on it backed over a boulder and darn near flipped it over. The hour meter read 9 hours. I can imagine the grader control is even harder to get down.
Probably was a rental machine. Can just see the saleman come out....Take his hat off...put over his heart....and say.......... "Looky what happened to YOUR machine!!!" PS I too pray no one hurt!!
G'day Guys, My opinion is that Caterpillar must incorporate a steering wheel into the M series for roading and deploy work for safety reasons. The must also incorporate a hydraulic accumulator in case the engine fails, giving the operator the ability to steer the machine to a safe stopping area. They must also redesign the front frame to give operators better vision out the front of the machine. Also the lift ram linkage should be modified to give better vision of the front wheels. I would hope that they will pick up on these problems or they will loose massive market share to other company's like Volvo & John Deere. I haven't seen the new G series John Deere, but it would be well worth a good close look. Regards WILDCAT
Its quite amasing how quickly it can become YOUR machine. I have the same problem when MY daughter or MY son have done something wrong, usually they are OUR kids
Howdy Wildcat. The 16M we recently aquired has some safety features with the steering. For normal operating, for every inch of stick movement you get 10 degrees of wheel turn. If roading the machine above 20 MPH, the steering response is cut in half which makes it a lot easier to control at the higher speeds. It also has a Hydraulic lock out that locks out all empliments except steering to prevent any accidental movement of the empliments while roading. This machine is also equiped with a secondary steering system that runs off of an electric pump that automatically kicks in should you lose power to your hydraulic system or the engine itself. This pump runs off of the batteries alone and will drain the batteries within a few minuets of use, so it is only a means to safely stop the maching out of the way should a failure accure. I do agree with you on the visability though. I miss having the big picture window in front to better see what the front of your machine is doing and the terrain ahead of you. It seems the new cab design is more focused on blade visibility of what you're doing with the blade instead of where you're going with the blade. Maybe they will work on modifications to this in the N, O, or P models in the future.(or how ever the hell their alphabet goes in the equipment world, I can't keep up....LOL) Tracksoup71
Us milling folks like joystick/lever controls.
Thats some intresting additions that have been made. Is the Hyd lockout auto or operator activated? I only ask as I know from posts on here that some operators in certain parts of the world seem able to shift snow while travelling a bit faster than that. Be intresting to hear the specialists comments. I wont say experts as I know Deas definition
The Hydraulic lock out on our 16M is a switch you have to manually turn off. But the steering above 20 MPH going to half response is automatically kicked in by the computer when the machine reaches the appropriate speed.
Nice You agree... your original post says are you serious. If you look at the amount of guardrail damage the deflection in the cabit would seem to me that some speed was involved, regardless of controls. Try to be impartial, for everyones sake.
CarterKraft A friend of mine that works as a Motor Grader Operator for a local county, has been running a 160M since about last Sept with about 300 hours on it since it was new. He has over 25 years of experience operating graders and other equipment. Before I ever seen the pictures, his comments to me were that he liked the blading controls, but when he hits a bump in the road, he has to really concentrate on holding the lever still so he don't move it around as his arm moves. Having been around a lot of County Bridges, often there is a small bump as you drive up on the planks. I can easily see how a new operator to that machine, could easily have that happen, and make a small swerve to the left and dropping his front left tire off the edge. That rail would not hold a 40,000 lb grader. To think that it wouldn't be related to joystick steering would be ridiculous. One of those operators could be traveling at a good clip, hitting the bump and losing control, and going over the edge. I'd bet money that when the full story comes out, that will be the cause. IMHO
That makes sense :thumbsup thanks. My duck has cruise control ........ :dizzy ....... activated by button, cancelled by touching the brake pedal, that also cancels the levers, but flat out I'm only doing 30kph :slomo
Yep, I agree with you IRONMAN! roadrunner.
I would like to know how many operators have went into a ditch with a steering wheel machine? I may know a little bit about this accident, but will wait for the final verdict. By the way this county ordered another 140M.
66KEN You definitely have an advantage on us if you know more about this! Please tell what you can about it, so we can make some objective opinions. Thanks- IRONMAN
66ken, if you know something about this accident what are you waiting for?You are making it seem as if it wasn't the graders fault.And who has not been in the ditch before? So spit it out! The county ordered a new 140m probably because this one is written off! ointhead
The county ordered a new 140m probably because this one is written off! I am not sure what this statement means. This machine was about 1 month old with 97 hours. The county could have purchased anything they wanted. Like I mentioned we will wait for the final verdict,until all facts are known I will not jump to conclusions.
Cat m wreck: For the rest of us... that would be about 18.6 MPH... Hi Rob... how you doing?... :waving OCR...
Since this seems to be a lottery to guess what happened and just like Butts, everyone's got an opinion, I'll offer mine. I don't think he was pushing snow because there's none on the bridge deck. Also no leftover windrow of dirt/gravel. I don't think he was going fast at all. Maybe walking speed or a little above at best. I base that on the minimal damage to the machine, didn't even break off the front lights. I credit the cab being leaned back to the shape of the ditch it fell in and the idea that it went off the bridge rear tires first. If he had erroneously steered hard left it would have taken more of a nose dive. The bolts that were holding the railing on aren't bent over toward the forward end of the machine like they would be with forward momentum. The bridge railing appears to be wooden. By going off rear first the blade pushed the railing ahead of the machine and didn't even break a lot of the rail boards. I think he drove the front tires onto the bridge with his left tire just missing the bridge marker sign at the approach with the grader tracking straight. Doing so to clear the right side railing with the blade. The front rear tandem tire would go onto the bridge about the same time as the right end of the blade. At the last second he thought he was going to hit the right railing and spontaneously twisted the rear steer to clear the marker. Or could have possibly mistakenly twisted the wrong joystick in an attempt to rotate the table. With a very weak railing design the bridge did nothing to deter the machine from driving off the concrete deck. Once the rear tires started off the edge there would be little that could be done to retrieve it. With his blade low to the ground it became a steel runner and contributed further to the rear of the machine taking a hard left turn. Someone commented about other operators having ran off the road. One time I was pushing snow and running about 14 mph. I came to a hard right turn on a narrow gravel road that was frozen solid. I had my moldboard turned to roll snow to the right. When I approached the curve and started my turn the front wheels started slipping. The locker was on. The machine only made a slight attempt to turn. Within a second I was doing a front wheels cramped, 14 mph slide, headed for the bank off the outside of the curve. A lot of things go thru your mind in that second and most of them are wrong. All I could make myself do was jam the blade into the roadbed, thinking it would stop me. What it actually did was lift the weight off the tires and I found myself skidding on a 14ft steel runner. I went off the road and down the bank stopping in a flat bean field. After I cleaned the seat I turned off the locker, lifted the blade and drove back up onto the roadbed. I was a lot more cautious the rest of that night.
6th gear, aprox 14 mph. 28' road, 20' bridge.
Dang it, I suppose I don't win the lottery either?? But which tire went off first???
Sorry, I don't know the answer.
Since this is simply a speculation, not pointing fingers, simply making a comment. When I look at the first picture I do not see any sign of striking the ground at speed. No skid marks down the bank behind the machine, no sign of the left end of the blade gouging into the ground, no scuff marks on the sides of the tires/wheels as if they skidded on the ground. Hmmmmmm. Would it be possible for this machine to start this crash at 14mph and lose all that forward speed before it struck the bottom of the ditch?? Hmmmm. Maybe some of the techno guys can answer this. Is it possible to retrieve data from the computer indicating the gear and speed of travel just prior to the crash?? If so would it also be possible to retrieve each of the requests the computer received just prior to crash?? :beatsme
Yes it is possible to retrieve the data. Some is already known, and the rest is still being looked at. Not sure when we will know everything.
30kph sounds a lot faster though Still kicking, just thanks for asking.
Noteworthy that you did not mention the thought of articulating/rear steering, not that I think it would have helped, just observing your recollection. I have scraped ice with enough down pressure to negate steering, never went in the ditch but did learn to keep my hand on the left blade lever at all times.
SDPete, I still can't see that the machine left the bridge with 14 mph forward speed. The scrape you are talking about actually would indicate that the machine had lost all forward motion before it left the deck. The powdery snow on the moldboard only indicates to me that there was a dusting of snow on the roadbed. I've done gravel maintenance to a frozen roadbed with a dusting of snow and got the same effect on the moldboard. Sure is interesting to speculate though huh.
scrape and speed You are right in thinking the speed of the machine at the point it fell off the bridge was either slow or zero. But I am guessing there had to be quite a bit of speed as the machine approached the bridge, otherwise I have a hard time explaining that scrape. If the left front wheel pushed through the rail and went off the bridge deck, I could believe the blade then cut its way along the edge of the deck until forward speed was used up and/or the left rear wheels went off the deck. Likely the grader would tip when the left rear wheels went off the deck, lot of weight back there and the center of balance would shift past the tipping point. Not a pleasant situation for the driver.
Hey there sdPete, your forcing me to put my specs on to read your posts. Be interesting when the story comes out as to what exactly happened.
I'm with Grader4me...she'll buff out. "Bondo & Paint'll make 'er what she ain't..." Glad to hear the pilot was O.K., besides being poster boy of the month for Fruit 'o The Looms undergarment company.
Good lord, the dead has arisen! Good to see you back! Figured you must have went on your final run..
Another possability is that the blade hand had punched the left front tire through or over the guard rail at a higher rate of speed and came to a stop upon doing so. Being stuck on the guard rail and not wanting to call anyone to save face, desided to try to get himself out on his own. After a little jocking around, the older style wooden railing may have given way under the weight, twist, and torque, pulling the machine off over the edge. This would explain the zero to no speed when going over, the scrapes on the bridge deck, and the fact that the railing seemed to have come off in one big chunk instead of pieces like you would expect if the grader had blown through the rail. Just another theory of coarse, but a plausible one. Working at a big gold mine, myself, I see a lot of people in the seats of equipment who are lacking the "molecular structure" to become any kind of on operator or already know everything and can't be taught. (Unfortunately, in a big company like that, they're not too concerned about wether they can truly operate, as much as their concerns for filling the seats for their quota to look good for corporate!! AAAARRRRGG!!!) Anyways, we had a blade hand actually rip the moldboard of the circle frame trying to get himself unstuck just so he wouldn't have to buy doughnuts for the crew. (That was the unspoken company rule at the time.LOL) That was 5 or 6 years ago...you are going to laugh at this.....He was never fired, infact, today he is the designated grader trainer for that crew( not mine thank God!!) and he still doesn't run blade worth a hill of beans. Now don't that beat all!!! It will be interaesting to hear the actual story on that grader going over the bridge, that is if (depending on the company) they release the actual story and not just what sounds good in the "public eye".
A very good thought, the only question I would raise is would you still expect the cab to be layed back if she only ( only, ha ha) rolled off the side. I aint arguin!....... just askin .
Hey AtlasRob, The way figure it, if the right wheels caught on the bridge deck as she went over, flipping the grader completely up side down before letting go, it would have landed cab first, especially if the front wheel hung up a little longer than the rest. If the cab hit first on a little bit of the incline of the creek bank on that side, I would think it would have given it enough forward momentum to do exactly that before the rest of the machine hit the ground, and then roll on it's side half under the bridge where it rests in the pictures. In my proposed theory, this would be the only way I could see the cab being rolled back like that. But as I said before, it's just a theory. It's always fun being an arm chair investigator, so if you are wrong, there's no harm done. But if you're right, you've got the bragging rights to say, "I told you so!!" LOL.
:salute sounds pretty convincing to me :yup Just glad nobody was seriously hurt and just as important.................it aint mine
Maybe this has already been posted. The Assistant County Engineer has commented that this accident was operator error. They are not 100% sure what happened, but they believe the operator was going to fast for the conditions, and lost control before he came to the bridge. The unit was totaled and the county ordered another Cat 140M.
I wonder what the operator had to say about that?
Bugeater- I wonder why they have kept this so hush hush? You would think that there would be some Public information about it, but I can't find anything in any news articles or any Public meeting minutes, etc. It seems like that there is some kind of cover-up to me. Can you tell us any more???:beatsme
Ever since these newer graders came out, i have wanted to run one so bad. I got to sit in one at an equipment show, and just the feel of the joysticks was great, and the thought of not having to look at all those levers in front of me was awesome. But now seeing this its kinda un-nerving! Hopefully someone figures out what really happend.
Reversing with M-Series Grader One of the complaints related to the joysticks is driving in reverse. Think about it: You cannot turn your body as your hands are on the joysticks. So, you must twist your neck, ouch! With the steering wheel, you keep one hand on it and you turn to side without problem (like reversing with the car).
You can take your hand off of the right joystick when you back up. Its actually a lot less dramatic than some people make it out to be. Your not flying an F-16. Seriously though, most people are uncomfortable in an M because they think they need a death grip on both joysticks. Operators do much better when they relax their grip, get the controls adjusted properly, and stay calm. Adjust the sticks so your elbows are ahead of your shoulders, and your wrists are below your elbows. Also, adjust the side consoles so you have some support under your forearm. Also remember if you slide the seat forward, you need to readjust the controls to match. This will help a lot.
Another issue is that the graders are often bouncing, especially at higher (transport) speeds. With your hands on the joysticks you do not have any support. Actually, it is easy to accidentally move the joystick in such situation. Don't misunderstand me: I like joysticks for blade control but I for sure believe that steering with the joystick is hazardous.
Another thing people don't realize is there is a switch in the cab that kills all hydraulics except steering for transport. The steering is also speed sensitive to ensure that the front tires can't be steered too fast during transport. The joysticks are also mounted to the floor of the cab, not the seat. I'm told they did this to minimize the amount of joystick input over rough terrain. If they were mounted to the seat you would constantly be bumping the controls. I've seen guys hold the bottom of the joystick in rough terrain because its a ridged mount to the cab. They can hold on while the seat bounces.
That is exactly what I meant. It's hazardous.
That's what I say also it's HAZARDOUS!
I disagree. I've been over rough terrain with M's and they steer just fine. The controls are mounted to the floor, they don't move as violently as an air ride seat does. The joysticks also have enough resistence in them that they don't flop around when your going over a bump, or several. I reread your comment about having no support with your hands on the joysticks. This is where my comment about having the consoles adjusted correctly comes in. There are arm/wrist supports that are adjustable on each side. You move those up enough so you can rest your arms on them. That way you don't have to hold onto the joysticks to support your arms. This helps tremendously!
Cat is obviously putting enormous efforts to convince the customers that steering with joystick is safe. And they should. The first law suit (and it is just a matter of time) and they will finally have to listen to the voice of customers. Once again, joysticks are fine for the blade control, so is the self-centering feature. The steering? Nah.
Welcome to HEF Old Grader Guy! I'm enjoying your posts. Please feel free to visit the "speed grading" thread and give your opinion I know..I should just let sleeping dogs lay.....
We have had joystick control on skid steers for years, wheel loaders also, now graders:beatsme
Skeedsteers and loaders are not 25 Tons machines moving up to 35 mph in a traffic. This thread started after M-Series road accident. We are talking about safety issue here. In some markets we can possibly educate and train new operators. This is what Cat is desperately trying through the simulator, manuals, etc. The truth is that the operators are changing, so there will always be joystick-untrained and potentially hazardous operators. Trust me, you do not want to be on the same road with them in your family car. Any machine operation should be intuitive and not require steep learning curve. I highly respect Cat but this time they are arrogantly trying to shove to the customers something that the majority do not want.
There are loaders on the market, well over 25 Tonnes that have no steering wheels...I don't know how fast they go. So you are well and truly pulling the trigger and blaming the Joysticks....:beatsme Maybe we could wait and see if the cause of this accident was known. I've really tried to fathom this statement and I can't quite get your point. I see poorly skilled/trained operators all the time...in all sorts of machines So what you are saying is that your traditional controls in say a G or H are totally intuitive and don't require a steep learning curve for a brand new operator who has never been in a grader before...or is that just the way you learnt??. I don't know to be honest because I'm not a grader operators backside. What I have observed, is that young/new operators take to joysticks like a duck to water...coming from older style controls I have struggled.
Not on the public roads. We are not talking about blade controls here. I emphasized this in the previous discussion. We are discussing here STEERING via joystick which can be potentially hazardous. How long would it take for average car user to learn to steer the car without a steering wheel and how many accidents would happen in a meantime? This is exactly the same situation. I am.
Ok so what you are saying is that no form of joystick steering should be permitted on the roads full stop. I can agree to not agree with that. I guess time will tell if we see a whole of M series road accidents and law suits. As a bystander I'll watch with interest.
Take care mate. I might visit Perth before year end. It would be nice to meet and have few beers.:drinkup
Cheers
There isn't any cover-up. More like a lack of interest from the public.
The armrests move with the seat.
Slam Dunk, he drove off the bridge! Well, which is it? Mounted to the seat or to the floor? My friend that operates one told me he has to be very careful if he hits a bump to keep the front wheels straight, because it is easy to move the small lever left or right when you bounce around in the cab. I think that the cause of the wreck was due to this bouncing when they hit the edge of the bridge...seems kind of obvious to me! Trying to spin it any other way is just making excuses for the machine. Bugeater says it is operator error, evidently bumping the control is the cause, unless he drove off the edge on purpose! :bash
From posts I have seen, I understood this to be a modification/upgrade that was not on the first M's. That said I might well be mixing 16's with other models that did have it from the outset. :beatsme I dont wish to start a war, just trying to clear something that is sticking in my mind. IF the isolator/cutout or whatever you wish to call it, is available and used then I can see tramping down the highway being a fair bit safer, especially when incorporated with a reduction in steering sensitivity/response. Be intresting to see a conclusive and constructive report into this accident, Maybe we should ask for one if the general public arent intrested enough
My thoughts as well. It would also be enlightening to hear what the actual operator had to say about it.
It,s a funny thread, we see that many rolled and crashed everything else,s on this forum and there is hardly ever a wimper of it being a machine issue and because it is the new fandangled grader every one has an opinion, which, yes we are entitled to but heck it could have been the old fall a sleep at the wheel (joysticks!!) trick for all you know. It would be good to see a concise report and put it to bed.
steering wheel i put a tractor in the ditch once ,if i had a joystick for the steering it would not of happened i was tramping on back to the field ,i had a cup of tea in one hand and the phone in the other ,i was steering great with my knee until i hit a bump and it all went wrong :beatsme hot tea all down me ,broke the phone :Banghead now if i had a joystick there would be no need to keep my knee on it while multi tasking so i blamed the steering wheel for my crash
Maybe they should try to retrofit the M's with a lever in the middle so that you could squeeze it between your knees to steer while drinking coffee and talking on the phone!!:drinkup
Well, if you had the lever in the middle, you might want to wear a cup, incase you go off a bridge...LOL :drinkup
and if you burn yourself with the coffee you can sue Cat
DESPARATELY???........ARROGANTLY????? The people you work with must be vastly different than the people I work with. Those terms do not apply here. As far as the INTUITIVE comment, you sit on that seat and get the machine moving, your left hand will learn to move that stick and steer the machine, intuition will develop right away. There is no alternative. Technique takes a while to develop. Steering wheel operators do not understand the advantage of joystick rapid steering response. The city of Sioux Falls, SD, leased 24 140M units for winter snow removal. If you don't want to encounter a joystick machine on the street with your family car, stay out of that city. Myself, I had opportunity to drive alongside a machine a couple times in my family car one evening, the driver was motoring along just fine with no problems that I could see, going straight without weaving around at about 12 MPH, traffic moving past the machine. The normal flashing warning lights were in use, there was nothing unusual to warn the motoring public that this was a dangerous joystick operated machine. I am going to speculate big time here. Joystick steering is a step in the conversion to electronic automation, with computer control coming next. You don't believe me look at the agriculture equipment market, autosteer is gaining converts and market activity rapidly. Head the machine down the field, click the button, hands off the wheel, beeper goes off as the end row is approached, grab the wheel turn it around, click the button again. This is going on right now, commercially produced, it works, the farmers that have it won't give it up. A grader running straight stretches looks to me like a logical candidate for automated steering, CAT has the electronic valve in production and now see what comes next. Again, I am speculating, I have read nothing that says CAT will do this, but they are in the ag equipment market and I doubt the engineers are ignorant. Commercial sprayers run upwards of 15 MPH going down 30 inch rows with 18 inch tires, autosteer has a vital ability to keep the machine from running down the crop, especially at night. CAT dealers sell these units. Remember, again, I am speculating, maybe someone can offer info to shed more light on the topic. Steering wheels are so universal that people lose their ability to think of anything else. Around the farm here I run a skidloader which steers hydrostatically with two levers, an old Hesston windrower which steers using two levers which run V belt pulleys on movable arms, an assortment of machines with steering wheels, a 4 wheel ATV with handlebars, and the township grader with a joystick. They all work, everything has its unique characteristics. If you think a steering wheel is the only way to get the job done, leave the other machines alone and do it your way.
I will, thank you. So will many other grader customers.
sdPete You got it there. Everytime there is a leap forward in tedchnology, there are a minority of hard headed folks who are stuck on the old way, and to them the new way will never work. Look at the swith from cable operated blades on dozers to hydraulic. The naysayers said it would never work right, hydraulics drift, no power, leaky, and a host of other complaints. We are almost totally hydraulic in spite of the critics. Same way with loading shovels. They could never advance. Same with automatic transmissions instead of manual in anything, cars, trucks, equipment. I especially remember another very controversial move by Cat when they introduced the high track crawlers. It was said they would loose all their dozer customers, it was unstable on a slope, it would never last, etc. They seem to dominate the dozer market now, and I suspect they will continue to dominate the grader market, although they have some quality competition there from Deere and Volvo. We already have graders with grade control, so it is not a large leap to think that they will soon have auto steer as well, for cutting highway grade, as well as large mining haul roads and other applications as well. As sdPete pointed out, Ag already has it, and for several years now. Farms get more efficient because of it. Less wasted fertiliser, less wasted tillage effort, because overlap can be eliminated, without leaving gaps. I have a good friend who is in his 60's, and he recently got hired to run a 140M. He called me and was very nervous about it. I eased his worries, and he went ahead. I talked to him the first day, and he struggled the first few hours, but then picked it up. A couple of weeks later, he told me he ends up roading 30+ miles almost every day, and mostly on public 2 lane roads, and he has no steering issues. He did say its best to lock out the blade functions when roading though, so you do not inadvertently raise or lower the left end while steering. It is just like anything else new, you have to take the time to get the feel for it before moving into a high risk situation, like plowing in traffic or something. You would not take a dozer operator, who had never ran a grader, and send him down the public street without some time in an isolated area to learn the machine. Same goes with the new control style on the M, and available on JD and Volvo as well. Take the time to learn the machine first, before judging it harshly. Just look at all the machines without steering wheels, and you can see they are not the only way to get the job done.
sorry double post
Well said, sdPete and JDOFMEMI. When we received our 16M, the CAT rep. said that the main reason for joystick controls in the grader is that they are slowly gearing everything towards remote computer operation. Even our Hitachi 5500 shovel is all electronic over hydraulic. The joysticks no longer run small linkages to hydraulic valves to operate the machine. The joysticks sit on circuit boards and they tell the computer of the machine what function the operator wants. This is the way technology is forcing the future, no matter if we like it or not. Personally, I like the challenge of learning to operate anything, old or new.
We just had a used 140 dropped off yesterday. Naturally the salesman was along to complete the sales and go through all the hoopla involved. We've had a friendly feud going on about how great he thinks "his" kitties are compaired to my Deere for some time. ...short verson about the M is (I was told) Operator error. The machines blade snagged the bridge and momentum shoved it over.
I don`t know about other folks,but I slow way down when I get near any structure especially when I have my mouldboard down working near buildings (bridges are structures in my book) I do not like these M blades.I watched a kid running an m on a job next to mine at SouthWest University in Georgetown,Texas. I am sure some of it was being green and young but he was in a finish operators place and was unable to edge curb for asphalt to save his rear.His work was horrible looking and he looked to me as if he was fighting his machine the whole while. We paved out the parking lot we had and he was still fighting with his???
Without reading the whole thread again I am pretty certain that was the assumption that many came to, ... thanks for an off the record update. The unanswered question, .....would it have happened with a steering wheel? opcorn
Good question, but I think if he had of been going slower he would have had better control. With a bridge like that the best way to approch it is going very slow. My intial thoughts and comments was that the blade caught and dumped him over the side, so I'm thinking that with a steering wheel the same thing would have happened. If he had been just creeping along when entering the bridge and did catch it with the blade, it probably wouldn't have thrown the machine. Just my 02 cents
For that question, I say that a steering wheel, or lack of one, will not cause a wreck unless the mechanism fails to operate as intended. An operator of any machine should not operate it at a speed he can't control. If it is a new system, like the "M" series, you should not go full tilt up the road with it untill you are comfortable enough to control it properly. Technology will constantly change, and it is up to the individual to learn to control the machine properly. If the operator was going accross the bridge faster than he could control the machine, it is not the machines fault. If the same accident happened on a conventional machine, there would be no controversy, just a resounding judjement of the operator going too fast for the conditions. I believe someone with a new machine has the responsibility to take it easy until he is comfortable enough with it to maintain control in the conditions he is in. Just my 2 cents worth
So much for the old line about a Cat always lands on its feet. I like joy sticks in an escavator and a skid steer but in a grader I think it goes a bit far.
Hey Greg my thinking at first was kinda like yours, a joystick in a grader is a bit much till I got on one. I had run graders for years and didn't think a joystick would ever work very good but I have to say I was very impressed with the ease of operation. I think it's just the operator plain and simple. I see operators in excavators that have to fight to maintain control. Is that the machines fault? I've been a diesel mechanic for over 20 years and I've seen technology come a long ways. I think Cat is on the right track with the joysticks just need to work out the bugs a little. I do think they should have left the steering wheel as an option instead of doing away with it completly though.
Long way yes. Wheel as an option probably would have been a good idea just like the option for differential steer or regular hand controls on a dozer. Like you, my age is showing here a bit too, and yes there are some guys out there that should not be allowed to operate anything more high tech than a shovel. As for technology, I think it is out of control. My phone has 63 features, or there abouts, that I don't want, don't use and could get along fine without. My digital camera is the same way. Unfortunately you can't buy anything anymore that some computer "wennie" hasn't gone crazy with. I also think that it is nuts that Cat builds machines where the operator can program in his personnel settings as to how he wants the controls to react. Same thing with cars, trucks and everything else with a computer chip in it. Now the problem becomes "when the computer goes down" even if there was a way to make a machine function without it the machinery drivers that are being turned out today couldn't operate it if they had too.
:yup very well put by you both :notworthy I have to agree 100%
training I have been training both old and new grader operators on the M Series Graders. I've got to agree with Tracksoup71 that people need at least 12 hours of operating time in a wide open space to get used to the machine. The real problems start in an emergency situation where your instincts take over. It's pretty easy to panic and do anything but the right thing with the steering control! I was like a lot of guys on this sight who are not impressed with the idea of joysticks but after operating them for a while I really got to like them. As one fellow said, the forward vision isn't very good. The idea of a steering wheel for roading seems like a real good one. Articulating the machine slightly seems to make it a little more controlable. In any event, I guess we'd better get used to the idea as I don't see Cat going back. All kids these days get joystick training with their video games and they are the operators of the future.
Background information: I've put 3,000 hrs. on my 12M. I'd say that's long enough to "know" a machine pretty well. 10,000 hrs. experience on traditional Caterpillar G & H motor graders before the 12M. By now I feel confident enough with the M to use it for just about anything that can be done with a grader. The steering is by far my biggest problem with the machine. However, as with any machine, an operator must always pay close attention to movement of controls. I have to be careful not to accidentally move the steering function. It's EASY to do if you're not a very precise operator- Just watch someone's first time on one! When I get back on a H, which I prefer, I don't have to WORRY about this issue. SO, in my experience, a M grader IS equally capable of maintaing control, but has greater potential for error and disaster due to human error. Maybe a solution is limiting available gears for new operators. It can be done in the cab. I'd say at least for gears 6, 7, & 8, an operator should have 50 hrs. experience minimum, maybe more. Just depends on the operator... but it's still a large machine that can KILL someone around or in the tractor!
I just completed my first 100 hours in my 140M AWD. I agree with most that the steering seems to be the last thing you get comfortable with. When you train yourself to relax, and avoid the tendency to over correct, everything goes much smoother. I had a demo M in the fall of '07, and from that point on I knew what I wanted. After 12,000 hours in a 140G, and 14,000 in a 143H, I wasn't sure what Cat could change to make their machines any better. I was VERY surprised with what they did. After spending 26 years with 12 control levers in front of you, it is going to take awhile for me to get completely comfortable with the the joysticks and optional control pods, but when I do, I can see my job getting easier (not a bad word) and more productive. My M has a rear ripper and front plow/dozer lift, and seems to be a very solid and stable work platform. The G and H were similarly equipped, and at the time were (and still are) great machines to operate. I used to dream about blading with the G and H, but my mind is not comfortable enough, yet, to dream about blading with the M. Strange? Give me a year with the sticks, and we'll see what happens.
I'm glad that you've performed extensive market research to know what the majority does and does not want. Please post this survey/research so that we can all be persuaded by your argument. If the "majority" you write of are other operators/techs/coffee buddies in your immediate vicinity, then you should state so. To generalize your majority as THE majority is to say that you've done more voice of the customer research than Cat and is grossly unjust. I can understand that you don't like or agree with joystick steering. That point has been made loud and clear. But you don't truly know what the majority wants any more than I do.
Ok smooth; we want a report this time next year...and welcome to the Heavy Equipment Forums
Thank you for a very constructive and informative post. :notworthy :drinkup as the Squizz master says, PLEASE give us an update when you have racked up a few more hours in your new mount, and happy blading :thumbsup
I was told that Cat is switching the engines out on the 6 wheel drive machines and going to a bigger one. Anybody know why? Were they lacking power? How much expense to the owner? What else are they updating?
There is a low power complaint when in AWD. The fix is to remove the C7 and put in a new C9. This should be covered 100% by Cat.
140M AWD. The C9 for C7 swap is great. My engine tag shows 268HP, not sure how much extra in each gear, but everything is more fun with more power. V-plowing and winging out heavy stuff in 8th without losing hardly any speed really makes the snow fly. In easy plowing conditions you probably won't notice any difference, but when it gets tough, you will find yourself powering through snow that would have had you going back for a second or third push. I am lucky having a ripper and front lift with a dozer/v-plow, because you need some extra weight to use all of that power. 750 hours with the joysticks, and it gets easier every day. smoothoperator
Did they do anything with the transmission to accomodate the extra HP? I'd think there might risk of powertrain issues with the higher power going through the drivetrain.
How much difference in fuel usage between the C7 & C9? What do you get for a top speed while your roading it? The M's are nice machines, sounds like yours is just getting broke in. Is your dozer an angle dozer or 3 way type? Post some pictures of that bad boy next time your doing some heavy plowing.
Fuel consumption has been running under 7.5 GPH (blended fuel) under most plowing conditions, and was under 5 GPH while doing maintenence blading last fall. Top speed is indicated 29 MPH, and the extra torque of the C9 keeps your speed up when climbing hills. My dozer is a shop built unit, with 8' of carbide bits, modified for boosting scrapers and knocking down trees. Fixed angle and pitch. I'll get some pictures lined up, but the plowing pictures will have to wait until next winter, (I hope) since we are now in the middle of flood fighting and soft spring roads. I do wonder if the rest of the machine will handle the extra power over the long term. I sure hope so. I am looking forward to doing some heavy dirtwork this summer. But I think I am like most blade operators, when you ask them, "How much power is enough?" The answer you get is usually, "Just a little bit more." Remember when the 16G literature said 250HP and 50,000 lbs? We are now there with a beefed up 140 sized machine. Yes, I like it. smoothoperator
Thanks for the info Smoothoperator! That dozer sounds like it's built real sturdy! I hope the flood don't get to bad for you, I heard they thought the water was going to go down. Even if it does, it's still early, lots of snow left to come!
Give me a G or H series any day. Got 2 16s here at work and the 16G (93U) has about 50,000 hrs on it and a 16M with 5000 hrs. A lot less downtime with the 16G. The 16M has had a tranny change and tandem rebuild in the last 6 months. A lot harder to work on also with all the "modern styling" covers. I wonder what the 24Ms are like also! The older 24Hs were fairly good graders. John
OOH I'd love to have that C9 in my 12M and max out the GVWR!! I look at the wreck like this: Reality is there are plenty of dumb ass "operators" out there. Plenty of good operators that make mistakes also. I don't care what problem the grader may have had, SOMEWHERE the operator made a mistake or used bad judgement. One must know when to take the necessary time and be cautious. I have 3900 hours experience on my 12M and I work in tight areas and often VERY close to bridges on our highway job. All I can say is I haven't come close to ending up like that! My theory ~ TOO FAST. NO WAY you could do that in 1st gear unless you were TRYING to test the ROPS! I will say this, Caterpillar mechanics were out about 6 months ago updating some steering configurations (?) after hours. I was curious as to the details and the mechanic, who I knew, was quite shady about what it involved. All he said was steering. Before I'd get paperwork regarding recently installed updates explaining what had changed (like the steering sensitivity that changed at the same time as the blade modulation configurations), this time he promised to leave me some info AS LONG AS I didn't show it to anyone!! Unfortunately he lied and didn't leave anything and haven't seen him since. I just found it interesting that he was so shady about revealing what he was doing to my machine after our crew appeared to be gone for the day... The M grader is handy for quick maneuvers and turn arounds, sometimes easier when you must use both lifts, the centershift, circle, sideshift, wheel lean and articulation ALL nearly at the same time...THEN having that steering there on the same stick IS good so you don't have to stop moving your other cylinders. I'm referring to a rare maneuver in a particular spot I don't feel like trying to describe. THE G and H graders are absolutely my favorite graders. Greatest generation of machines. Years from now they'll be treasured like old muscle cars.
They prolly inspected a few things, flashed some new software and added an additional temp sensor for the steering.
wow that stinks!!
M discussion From what you write I will guess the procedure might have been similiar to what was done here, 7 hours to install temp sensor near the front of the machine, assemble and install wire harness from that point across the top of the beam into the cab hook into computer down under the seat at rear of cab. The work order came from CAT as a required steering update. It might have looked a bit silly for machine in Georgia where the climate is relatively warm compared to SD particularly in winter. If your mechanic appeared shady about it consider that he might have been at the task fairly late due to the 7 hours it took. By the time he left, a promise to leave paperwork could have been easily overlooked. What I write here could well not even apply to your machine so note the words - guess - might - appeared - could - ....this is an educated guess on my part. I do know that when the update was completed, warmup time on a cold morning (below zero) decreased by about 30 minutes as the steering temp warning lights turned off much sooner. When I ran G and H graders I thought they were pretty good machines myself at the time, and you may well be right about the muscle car analogy. After running the M plowing snow three winters now, there is no desire to return to a G or H on my part or the three guys that help me. Gravel operations .... same opinion. I am wondering when farm machinery will convert to joystick steering. Sioux Falls again leased 24 140M AWD units last winter, for their purposes those machines are dandy with all the places they have to steer into and around. Last visit I had with the salesman 3 weeks ago there were 3 of those available for purchase...the rest were sold, the machines start coming back off lease on the 15th....
Same here ! All 5 of our 14M had the upgrade done before we traded them in and I asked numerous times for the details of the upgrades (hazard assessment) and they kept dancing around my requests. Regardless our new 14M are getting better reviews from our operators : Better steering, inching pedal that actually modulates, smoother shifting, minor changes in the cab related to air vents....The only issue so far has been the park brake solenoids. They all failed within 50 hrs. And the paint on the engine and cab roof is already peeling...
We've got 5 more 24Ms coming this year, which has some folks worried based on the steering problems and such that we've continually had to deal with on the 2 24Ms we have now.
Appraisal/Auction values are still relatively high on H models and even G's because people are afraid of the joysticks. I do not foresee upgrading any blades anytime soon so I don't know much about the joystick controls and the issues. Maybe need to pester the Cat dealer into demo'ing one to us to check it out.
Heres an idea I would put in the head of these guys complaining over the M blades. Get rid of them as well as the old blade. If you can't run a M blade in a straight line then maybe you shouldn't be on it? I will say when they first came out yeah it was dificult but with all the updates mine has gotten alot better. We had a guy here was a top notch blade guy and they gave him an M blade and he hated it. Complained about it, but he was a decent guy to keep around so they took him off it and made him a foreman. Company I am working for has about 40 of them and not many complaints except from the older guys that want a steering wheel. The younger guys love them, if you want to be able to control it alot better Dont hold a firm grasp on the joysticks. You will end up over correcting yourself all the time. I hold the joysticks with 2 fingers with a loose grip makes it alot easier. When I am heading down the oad going 30 mph I use my thumb and middle finger to hold the joystick and run my index finger over top to select gears.
We elected to rebuild one of our 16H's instaead of buying another 16M. We have 2 16M's with 8500 hours and 9300 hours. Many updates to these 2 machines, including major weld updates due to poor Factory welding procedures on the front frame. One 16M spit out all the coupler bolts off the flywheel and found them all laying in the transmission screen. CAT dealer had to practically rebuild the transmission. CAT mechanic cussed the CAT engineers about how difficult it was now to remove a transmission from a 16M. I could go on. Sure been a head ache to maintain and keep up with all the software updates, Product improvements and service mag articles on this particular module.
He probably lost controll when he swerved to miss the crane that was parked in the middle of the road to pick him out of the ditch. Pj
10 pages and noone has any facts regarding this wreck?
I read this thread when it was first started in 2009. The most information detailed information I have seen is on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBytzi0YbPw Read the comments under the video about what happened.
Looks to me that the wreck had more to do with the conditions than and maybe the operator than with the machine. The county inadvertently plants graders in the woods here every once in a while plowing snow at speed and catch a hard spot with the wing. Probably just lucky no one has done it on a bridge yet, although they typically slow down on the older non shouldered bridges.