Gentlemen, The community I work for currently has a '98 Case 580 SL Series II. I am looking to replace it with something similar. I was quoted on a Super M. There is a Cat salesman who also wants an opportunity to quote which is fine with me. Does anyone have an opinion either way about which machine is better or is it awash due to pros and cons equally divided? Thank you kindly DZ
Well depends on who your asking ? some guys like case some like deere some like cat some just like what will get the job done cheap. As far as case vs the cat I would not pay the big price difference they will match price on similier speced machines. I never liked just the single bucket cylinder probably one of the reason i like case i have heard that cat has lower rpms' while digging and giving more power. I think the best thing is to demo both machine in a pit digging for digging loading for loading . the only thing that cat has over case is probably the IT for the front. case has something but not like that.
Operator can you have a demo of both machines and let the operator(s) decide which they like best ,then see who comes out with the best deal ?
Yes I can demo side by side. I'm also looking for longevity, reliability, dependability, does one rust more than the other (I know Case does), operator comfort, ease of maintenance etc. On ours for example, there are no grease fittings in the front axle u-joints and if there were access would be tough. I replaced one not too long ago at significant expense. Another thing, both claim to have a better resale value. Or even try changing a serpentine belt - now there's a job for something that should be simple. DZ
Haha... changing the serpentine belt on a Case SL2... good luck. Pulling the coupler apart for the hydraulic pump is always fun, especially since those bolts are always seized up. I have never liked the Cat backhoes myself. I was converted to a Case man from Deere but I love my Cases. I have been told by many people that if you like your SL2 Case you won't like the M's. And with the Cat... your not gonna like the speed of the hoe compared to the Case.
I used to work for a company in Columbus Oh.Most of our backhoes were Deere. They were good machines. Fast, reliable, easy to fix, easy to get parts for. That may be something to look into. Being a community im sure price point is a big consideration. Then maintance would be a close second. That being said, I said most of our backhoes were Deere, that is until the dealer switched names, ill leave it at that. We were looking for 12 brand new backhoes. You would think most dealers would jump on a chance to move that many machines in one shot. Well, the Deere dealer would not budge on price, at all. The cat salesman jumped on that. We ended up purchasing 11 Cat 420 backhoes, and recieved the 12th free. That sealed the deal. You can only be so loyal to a brand with a deal like that. To be honest, machine vs machine, they are all the same as far as i am concerned. Both will do what you want to do. Both dealers, im going to guess Ohio Cat and Southeastern equipment will have parts available. I say demo them both, let your operators have a say in the purchase. To a point, you will have to take what they say and mix it with price point and service ability.
I do like the Deere machine, but that excavator style boom really gets on my nerves when im digging closer to the machine. I know thats the main reason for it, but I find when im lookin to boom up and get the bucket out of the ground.... im already on the rubbers. The Deere and Cat will outlift the case with the hoe. I found with my 580 I had that if I wanted to lift a manhole barrel I had to sit the boom on the transport lock and use the stick and extendahoe to lift and place it. I know other people say loading a truck is much better with the excavator style boom, but I didn't really like it when I tried it out, the case was still a nicer machine for loading trucks. As for the loader, I will take a Deere hands down over a Cat or Case anyday. Deere has really outdone themselves on the loader. It works well, can take abuse and its fast compared to the others. You said this is a community machine, is that considered a public works macihne? We did contract work for the city and I have noticed almost every public works has Wain Roy couplers on their machines. What about your other attachments if you have any? Are they Case specific or are they a Wain Roy coupler? We actually had to carry a Wain Roy coupler with our machine so that we could use city buckets and breakers if we had to. I never understood why because I carried my own buckets, breaker and hoe pack with me all the time. I don't know if the Cat coupler will mate up to the Wain Roy, I know Deere's will mount up, and the case quick coupler slips into the wain roy unit.
We had 2 cat hoes before and never again. Case and deere only. We have a 580SL II and I wouldnt trade it for nothing else. Both Deere and Case will take all the abuse given and still be a good machine.
directorz, we own two case backhoes- an 89 model 580K series 1 and an 03 580SM series 1. Both are great machines, both with cab, ac, 4x4, ext. hoe. One is foot swing, one is wobble stick. Like both of them. Cat will cost more, but will it last longer?? my .02, ZAXIS
I vote Case. Looking at the new series 3 would be the way to go. Sahr parking brake, no more annoying alarm when the lever sticks. If you go sm+ you get a variable volume pump on top of the pilot controls. Also new rear axle and a tier 3 engine. See the case M series posts for more info.
You'll find plenty that you like and don't like about any brand. Try them for yourself and it never hurts to get a price quote. By me, Cat was cheaper than Case, so who knows what you will find until you check. I really don't think there's much to be afraid of with any of the backhoes from Cat, Case, or Deere.
Thanx to all for the responses! Turbo21835...how did you like the Cats compared to the Deere? Yes, you are correct, this will be Southeastern Equipment and Ohio Cat. Burnout, there are no attachments. Just 12", 24" and a 36" ditching bucket DZ
Also Turbo 21835, price is a big consideration but I've suceeded in persuading the powers that be that lowest is not always best - a hard hurdle to get over. DZ
as far as price I know this near me that has a pool bussiness and long time case man looked at both cat/case and went with the cat for reasons of how it dug . but was going to go case because of the price difference of $10K but cat came down to the case price. As far as rust I have heard that cat has some good rust buckets too just like all the rest not any better or worse I think. but always the best is compare them side by side then work on the price because if one or the other thinks you like there machine the best probably will not budge on price.just my 2 cents almost like buying a car and especially a municipality buying it thinks you got loads of cash to spend.
Cat320, We will most likely be quoted 'State Bid" which for the Case is about $66K. I don't know what Cat is yet. Being State Bid however, both parties will be locked into their price before they even provide me a quote. The deciding factor is how much they will give for a trade-in of our current unit. Should be interesting. DZ
well i will tell you what i was offered from sunbelt case. my machine '97 580L e-hoe 4x4 full light cold weather package flip over stabilzers and one pin quick replacement for the hoe with 1500 hrs quoted$22K for trade new 2007 580mturbo ehoe 4x4 grid heater light aux front hydro $72,900
Congrats on that :drinkup Its not very often that you can get the powers that be to understand that. Im sure either way you go, you will have a reliable machine with good support. These companies wouldnt be in business if they did not build and support a good machine
Cat320, 1500hrs? Id keep running that L before going to an M. Maybe the Series 3 will be better.
I like it but I was looking to upgrade to something that will give me a little more power when roading up hills.I bascily road it every where local . But that ship has sailed will just work with what I have.
The company i use to work for and mechanic for had 2 case 580 sl2,1 case 580 sm and a cat 420D. Ill tell you that I would never get a case there joints get loose very quick,there hydraulic hoses are made very cheap I had to keep many spares on my service truck. You can only get batterys for them from case. To do a 1000 hr service on a case will cost you more then a cat. The operators hated the cases our cat woul run circles around them i'm still friends with the owner and he just traded another case in for a cat 420E and he said that is a great machine and the operators love it. The only thing that I like about a case is the cummins engine. I have run them both and I feel that the cat is way better. It helps when our cat dealer was awsome and the case dealer was worthless. Cat backs up there product even when they are out of warranty.
Over 4,000 hours, everything is still tight and its only blown 1 hose on our 580 opposed to the Cats we had which were the complete opposite. I guess every one has different luck.
I find these responses very interesting. I have been servicing Case for 25 years and have yet to change any pins and bushings that were wore prematurely. A benchmark for pin and busing inspection is 4500 hours, untill this point you do not even have to be concerned. The only reason for poor pins and bushing wear is lack of grease. Case hoses are just about never changed. I have had literally hundreds of new/used backhoes that have never had a hose changed in over 10000 hours. I think that your experiences are a sympton of bad maintenance not machine quality. As far as one unit over another, the big three Case, Deere, Cat all offer good machines. It is just like the Ford, Gm, Dodge debate. Personal prefference, ability to do the job tasked, price and dealer all play important roles in determining which machine you should buy. Always remember to fully qualify what the machine primary use will be, demo all the machines and buy the one that fits this criteria the best. Buying a machine that does one thing great but only does the primary task well will only cause problems for you in the future. Just my opinion folks..........Elast
The only real problem I have seen with the Case backhoes is the boom lift cylinder for the hoe cracking in the housing. I have seen a ton of pics of other Case 580/590's where the cylinder casing has been welded up a few times. I always thought it was a design flaw with the case machine and they did alleviate the problem when they inverted the cylinder with the L series. When Iw as working for a former boss I found out that using the swing to push dirt with your bucket is what causes it. The boom flexes and it causes stress on that cylinder housing and it cracks. We replaced the entire casing on my 580SL2 and I got a brand new SM. One of the new guys got the machine and he was bad for using the swing to push dirt and sure enough within 2 months it had cracks forming at the base where the casing connects to the boom. As for hoses, don't all manufacturers basically use the same type of hydraulic hose? I know the 580SL2 I mentioned above had 10 000hrs on it and many original hoses. I was popping new ones every 2 months but most of them were in high stress areas where they rubbed with others. I think Case puts together a nice package with the 580/590 series machines. Especially for public roads work, they are more compact than the other machines out there, faster going down the road (just don't get the powershift). I find them better for loading trucks. The stabilizers aren't as wide so your not poking one stabilizer 3ft out into another lane if your working in one. And out of all the quick attaches I have seen, I love the case standard unit the best. It takes getting used to but they are a great unit. I grew up with the Wain Roy units and the slop in the bucket you get after a couple years really sucks. The Cat and Deere quick ataches take away a lot of ground clearance when in the transport position. And that brings me to the Case over center design.... I always find myself dragging the back bucket on the ground when going over rough terrain, pushing up piles or climbing hills. Last month the company I was working for tried out some enw backhoes, the 580SM2, Cat 420E, JCB 3CX, Deere 310J and a Terex 820. They immediately shot down the Deere because it was manual wobble sticks instead of pilots and none of their guys will use something without pilots. And they wouldnt step up the cash to buy a SJ model. The Terex was gutless but a decent machine. The Cat 420 surprised me, they have gotten better since the early E that I tried. I liked it but that excavator style boom drove me nuts, and it still felt like a portly clumsy beast around site. It felt like a Deere 710 to me! The Case was the shining star of the test, I managed to knock out more trench with it in a day than our top operator did with the brand new Deere 200D, but they didn't want to buy a new set of buckets and their little mini-x hoe pack wouldnt work with the Case. Add to that JCB knocking almost 10k off the price of a new 3CX and they bought another POS JCB. Once again my .02 But opinions are like buttholes.... everybody has one.
I compared '05 Case 580SuperM with Deere 310SG and CAT even TEREX 760. I ended up with Case more because of the financing, dealer and the dealer network than anything. The dealer gave me a new machine warranty even though the machine was 2 yrs old & 1,000 hrs!! They also gave me 5 yr financing for 4% with only 10K down. I thought that was a smokin deal. :cool2 I liked Deere the best, but they couldn't touch CNH financing at the time and their machines were more expensive. I didn't care for the CAT dealer. They thought their **** didn't stink. I don't like snotty dealers. I looked at a couple of 2 yr old CAT's but they were 7-10 grand more. I'm a private contractor so every buck counts. I ended up with an CASE '05 580 SuperM 4x4 with lots of extras: Pilot controls, 8' (590) bucket, x-large fuel tank, cold start, ride control, nicer seat & FFC front quick coupler. Only thing I don't like is my Case had a poorly painted hood and the previous owner dumped a lot of stone backwards on it and stone chipped it.. Cost me $200 to get it painted right. I also had a windshield leak (fixed by dealer n/c) and a cold starting sensor broke ($38). I like that it's about 5/6th the size of the CAT. It fits in tighter spaces. I find the triple back windows in the back are a little annoying to look through and pulling the backhoe boom up to lock position takes a little getting used to. It's unorthodox compared to a regular hoe, but once it's in place, it helps get the weight of the boom over center nicely. Reality is, they're all VERY comparable machines. Anyone who tells you one is "junk" or the other is "way better" is just voicing the old dreaded "brand loyalty" sydrome rather than any sense of reality. Mostly young kids Just pick the one you like that gives you the best deal for your hard earned money from a dealer you can trust. They're like Ford, GM & Dodge pickups. Each one has a few nuances the others don't. You can't go wrong with any of the three big names. probably the better dealer will be your most important deciding factor. A 590 is a bigger heavier machine that gives you an option over the 580. It has more HP, wider spreading stabs bigger tires, etc. I don't need a huge backhoe on steroids, so the 580 was a nice fit for me. I came off a Ford 555. Good luck.
Very nice pictures Duke. You probably saved a bundle over the price of a new one. Like buying a 2 year old car, as long as the previous owner took care of it, it can be a great deal, and he's the one paying the brunt of the depreciation.Phil
Of all the advice and opinions I have read here, the ones that say "listen" to your operators makes the sense. I work for a major city, they bought two "demo" firetrucks at $1.75 mill each. After a year we kept harping, don't buy a third these are junk. The mech div said the same thing. The powers that be liked the idea of saving money and bought a third. Now we use one as a parts truck if it breaks done till the custom made parts arrive. Well off to get the cylinder head of my 530 and see how bad things are.
I saved $24,000 over a new machine and got a new machine warranty and new machine financing. Means a lot when it's your money and not taxpayer money or the bosses money. I'd love to have a sexy new $100,000 CAT backhoe, but I can't and seriously don't know many smaller operators who could afford one. My CASE probably isn't as good as a CAT, even that's debateable, but it gets the job done, makes me pretty happy and leaves me money for college for my kids. :usa
Duke you where lucky to find such a gem in the rough with alot of good features especially with low hours . mine was 3+ years old with very low hours just wish it was the higher hp model with a few more front and rear hydro lines.
Thanks. That's the main reason I bought my CASE. It could just as easily have been a Deere or CAT if one of those dealers gave me as good of a deal. The longer I've been in business, the more I hold out for equipment until I know I'm getting a great deal. I'll wait a year if I have to or wait for favorable financing. When I got my CASE, the dealer also installed new front tires, a new radio/cd & speakers, an FFC quick coupler to the front loader arms and performed a complete 1,000 hr service (all new fluids & filters). That alone was worth around $2,000. The only thing it didn't have that I wanted was front/rear aux hydaulic lines.
when i got my 580 it was a really long round about way of getting it. it was comming from a dealer but not being sold directly to me but to another guy who was buying 3 of them including mine which brought the price down by almost 10K per machine. but i had to do my own service . the tire where good at the time wish i had the aux hydro to f&r who know maybe a good deal will come about and I can trade up . I definatly like your machine Duke and i could definatly get used to those pilote controls , I do wish i had the ffc front but if i did that it would cost a small fortune as i would need new bucket and then the forks as the reason to do it.
In regards to the hose issue, there is a difference-- not in the longevity perhaps. That can be different on every machine and its enviroment. The Cat machines use a larger diameter hose on the cylinder lines, and a thicker. The materials you'll find throughout the cat are made thicker. This is part of the price difference. For example the side boxes and steps and guards on the case are smaller and not serviceable. Cat uses replaceable parts in these areas. Cat stumbled into this market with a poor product initially. I've always been around case backhoes, but as newer models come out, I favor the Cat machines. They are roomier and have a more solid feel and the hydraulics feel more powerful to me. One disadvantage to this is their added weight and size difference. Example 580M vs 420E. All are good machines throughout and i think it really makes a difference how your dealer treats you in regard to which is better.
I have a 1998 580 SL with 9600 hours in my yard. All I did was a start and a few hoses.
I tend to see more older, higher houred CASE & Deere machines than CAT. When I started looking, I had visions of buying a $35K backhoe. I looked at a lot of CAT 416B's & C's. The rust was bad in the floors of the CATs. The older CASE L's had badly rusted doors. I'd rather fix/replace a door than a floor. The CAT's were bigger, but more clumsy. The CASE was a lighter, more nimble machine. Since I'm a private contractor, smaller/lighter was an advantage for me. Even with an 8' bucket fully loaded, my 18,000lb CASE feels solid & stable. Don't forget Case also makes a 580 SuperM "+", which is more machine and a 590 SuperM, which is more machine than either. I really can't see how you go wrong with any of them. My best advice is to buy from the dealer that gives you the best service and forget the brand loyalty. None of the big 3 would sell as much as they do if they built mediocre machines.
Case vs Cat vs Deere Looking at resale value, upon trade or municipal auction, and looking at longevity.....I would say that Deere is by far the lowest cost per hour. My family has owned Case and Deere, one Cat, since 1979. Our Case machines that we owned were decent machines, with a few glitches over the years, but usually didn't bring as much at trade in or resale as the Deere units. We purchased one Cat and it sold for the least amount of any of the machines and was the most troublesome of all of the Brands. Cat is still working out the bugs, even in the "E" series....at least in my opinion. I think that looking at overall long term reliability and durability Deere has been the best machine we have run. We have a 410D and a 410E with over 10,000 hours each and they still run great....not one major problem. We have had a 580 Super L that has 8,000 hours that was a decent runner as well. We trade our machines out at 9,000 hours, Dad is attached to the 410D and the 410E so they are at our farm, and Deere has always been better at higher hours. I know a couple of municipalities that turn their machines on a lower hour basis, around 2,000 hours or less, that continue to buy Deere due to the lower cost outlay....we have purchased a couple of machines from one....but the way it works is they paid for their first 310SE 65,000 and have budgeted 25-27k to replace it from that point out....the dealer continues to keep that real by trading it or our company purchasing their used machine from them. I know that Cat doesn't hold resale worth a hoot and so it is difficult to do the same thing with a Cat I am interested to see where you decide to give your business,