I'm new to dozers but i've been around and operated heavy equipment all my life. we are starting to branch out into full size machines and i've only got a few hours on a 650 Deere (loved it!) but i've never spent any time on a Cat dozer this size. I've been asking around and from just about everyone i ask, from a D6 down deer all the way. anybody think the opposite? and what makes the deers so much better? as for dealer support we have both a large deere and a large cat dealer in the area, so they are pretty much equal in that aspect.
Deere seems to specialize in the small to mid size machine. Up to about the 850 in dozers.
Thats a question of personal favorites. Everyone will like one or the other the most for one reason or another. Around here all you see is Cat D6H and D6R. There is alot of John Deeres, but they are 450's and 550's for the most part. Most of our work is oilfield, and farm/ranch. The D6 with a winch or a ripper accounts for 90% of the dozers I see. A good friend of mine had an early 80's JD 550 until 3 years ago. They tried their neighbors new JD 650 and were set on buying one. They then took a D4G out on demo, and ordered one 2 days later. They claim the cab is tighter, and the machine seemed more responsive while operating. Also keep in mind that the after the sale service counts for alot.:guns
nobody has anymore input? come on everybody has an opinion.
Out with the Deeres, in with the Cats Up until recently I was a Deere convert and as far as handling and performance I still am but their representaition and back up lets them down badly. We have a 700J XL and 750J amd in my opinion they run rings around any equivilant sized CAT dozer that I have run (I have not run the 6K). With 40 years of experience, I have never had so many hoses fail and if something other than a hose fails it has not been uncommon for us to have to wait 20 to 30 days for parts. We had one of their tracked skid loaders down for a month, an excavator for 2 seperate weeks and the 750 went back to the dealer last week to have the engine stripped down, it has 2500 hours on it and as per the local dealers recomendation it has been serviced every 250 hours (half the normal interval), using genuine filters and the oils they specified. It has been in there five days and they still dont have it stripped out? I am not pro one brand or the other, these are just facts. I will say that it is very, very unlikely that we will be having more Deeres, I think that we will go with CAT when the time comes to replace them, just because of the back up.
I don't think the opposite.Nothing runs like a Deere.Period.Why?---Dedicated engineering,customer feedback,testing and more testing before a new product gets released,plenty of beef where needed.
Id say Cat when it comes to dozers. Theres history in thier track type tractor line. Although I have never operated anything smaller than a D7 on the Cat line. And on the Deere line i have never operated anything over a 650J. After getting used to the Deere and thier "T" handle controls it was a decent machine for finishing. I, though am still personally bias when it comes to the cat yellow. The operator station and controls are just so much nicer...once again, that is only my personal opinion though.
*If you get a chance look at the interior of the new D6N its the "Cats Meow" no pun intended!
From D3 to D8 here it is all Cat and nothing else. Deere Hydraulics at least around here are a nightmare. The Deeres in general are a nightmare to work on too.
I like a Deere but for SERIOUS Work(non-forestry) I'll take the Cat every time. We go through a LOT of hoses on the Deere's. Give yourself a day or two to adjust to the Cat and you'll never miss a Deere. KY Jim
I have operated from a D4up to a D10T push Cat , skipped around a bit operated 4,6,8,9 and 10 , Cat all the way , ran some deeres 450H, 650G, 750? and wasnt impressed doesnt seem like they are heavy enough , and have the hyd. power and speed , the only thing I liked anout the deere was the forward/reverse/L+R control setup , but to each his own , everyone has a differant operating style, test them all and see what you like best
This is like arguing Chevy Vs. Ford. Everybody can say what they want but it all comes down to personal preference. Talk to people who actually own machines or have run them, not those who have "heard" about issues or haven't operated or worked on a machine that is new enough to have an opinion.
yeah i agree with digger on the chevy and ford thing...i have run deere's from 650 to 1050 and i have run alot of cat dozers also...they all have there drawbacks and pluses, i like a deere better myself because they have infinately variable speeds witch is good for finishing work, stout winches, and are all around smooth machines, but i have always wanted to hook a D6T and an 850J together to see who would win
The last dozers that I ran were all Deere's , with the exception being 1 D-4C(?). The bulk of the work that I was doing was regrading the slope of railroad tracks, working in front of and behind a undercutter. This machine pulled the ballast out from under the tracks,and dumped it in a spoils pile. That being said, we were almost always in tight conditions,and with the way the tracks on the Deere equipment would counter rotate, well lets just say it got me out of trouble in more than 1 occasion. But my opinions are obviously 1 sided since I haven't ran much cat equipment. For what we were doing,a 650 J LGP was the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong. Heath
Chevy and Ford thing? How right you are. Lets hear it for Ford and Cat!! I go along with KY JIM on the hose thing on the deeres and oh ya, try to put the things on. The deeres in my experience are a b---- to work on. Like I said before in here. From a D3 to a D8 around here it is all Cat. I have even been accused of wearing Cat underwear.
Nothing runs like a Deere . . . with a CAT on its @$$ had to say it since noone else had. I've ran both a D4C series 3 and a Deere 650G bother were nice machines I liked the cat it just seemed to do everything better (started easier in cold, took gear quickly, hydraulics worked quick and smoothly) The operator that took over the Deere liked the Deere more then the cat though and claimed the blade lifted much higher although thats all he ever seemed to point out that was better? :beatsme
Cretebaby, That is Ford and Cat!! You have to get this straight!!
I completely agree. I'd rather run almost any Deere vs it's Cat counterpart- dozer, excavator, TLB, etc- BUT the Deere will be down far more often, which is compunded by inferior parts availability and service. And heaven help you if you have to wrench on it yourself, they're an itch with a capital "B" to work on.
This deere aint tough Dielseldave, it will be a month next week since that 750j went back to the dealer and it's still not fixed, it only has 2500 hours on it? At the start of this week out of 5 assorted Deeres, none more than 2 years old, we had one running. The only way I would touch them again is if they gave them to me and threw in a mechanic. Once bitten twice shy!
Your experience sounds like mine. Expecially in the hydraulics department. Just like an F-16 Fighter. Work them two hours, work on the hydraulics six hours. Oh ya, and are they some miserable d--- things to work on too.
LDK, can you elaborate on what is wrong with your 750J? Also, I keep hearing that Deere's are so hard to work on. Greg-are we talking about new machines here or ones from 3-4 decades ago?
Yeah, it's a shame, isn't it? They're such nice machines, too... Every year the contractors we work for rent whichever dozers they can get based on price and availability, so we might end up with Komatsu D65's, Cat D6's, or Deere 850's. I always kinda hope for an 850 and then hope even more that it will hang together This one was my all-time favorite, I ran it when it was brand new in '03 and it sure was sweet. I got it again in '07 (last pic) and it was sad to see how much it had deteriorated. Also, I was in error in my first post. I shouldn't have included TLB's in my statement, because in my experience the opposite has been true- the Deere's have been great machines and very reliable, the Cat's POS.
First of all....Greg....I think you should look for some different tighty whities...maybe some Fruit of the Looms. Answer me this....if ALL new Deere machines are such a "itch with a capital B" to work on and the parts support is soooo bad how is Deere the clear #2 construction equipment player in North America?? Seriously, there is a reason that Cat and Deere are #1 and #2 in the largest construction equipment market in the world....its support, whether its service or parts. Now, with that being said I can't speak for either one in Argentina. I can say that there is probably room for improvement in markets outside of North America. As far as being a pain in the arsh to work on....if we are comparing C-series Dozers to brand new Cats....I would probably agree. BUT I think most would conccur that this comparison isn't apples and apples. Compare a new 850J to a D6T for routine maintenance...and I mean really compare the two... and I bet one will would pick the Deere. Lastly, Dieseldave...I think everyone on this board would agree that a machine brand new in 03 (regardless of whose build it) would be a lot different machine after four seasons of being abused as a rental tractor.
Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit. We rent from the same places year after year and often get the same machines time and time again. We had a pair of late-90's D65's that were with us every year since they were new. They finally went off to auction last year . While they did have some problems and were showing their age, they were still decent, reliable machines right to the end even with over 15000 hours on the clock. And they were owned by a company not known for rigorous and exacting maintenance, so TLC wasn't what was keeping them on the job. The 850 at 4 years old and 5000 hours or so felt and behaved- evidenced by it's rate of availability- like a much older machine.The 850 was rented from a dealer, not a rental company, so it should have had better maintenance. It obviously didn't, which doesn't speak well of the dealer "support". Neither did the ability and knowledge of the "servicemen" that Deere sent out to repair them. I realize that this is only one dealer, not a global cross-section, but that's what my experience has been, and from what I understand my experience is not unique. I don't have a lot of experience with newer Cat's, but the corps of engineers where we are has half a dozen D6R's, all with 10,000+ hours on them and while they have failures as any machine will they are generally reliable pieces that can be counted on to put in a day's work. They are, I'll admit, pretty well cared for by the local dealer. My point, Farm Boy, is not that a four year old machine is the same as a new one. It is that the machine deteriorated at a rate far higher than I would have expected, regardless of it's use. The two competitors machines (groups of machines, actually- my Deere was one of four that we rented for years, so it wasn't just a case of a solitary lemon) that I compare it to were in better shape, were more reliable and had better availability despite having more than twice the years and twice the hours on their clocks. The first pic is from '04, the 65's had 7-8000 hours on them and were very good reliable machines. The second pic is from '08 and is one of the same 65's from the above pic, 15000+ hours "being abused as a rental tractor" and still strong, functional and reliable- more than I can say for the 850 pictured in my former post. Didn't have the "new car smell" any more, though ointhead
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All Three are good brands The second pic is from '08 and is one of the same 65's from the above pic, 15000+ hours "being abused as a rental tractor" and still strong, functional and reliable- more than I can say for the 850 pictured in my former post. Didn't have the "new car smell" any more, though If that machine in the 2nd pic has over 15,000 hours it must have been driven to church on Sunday by an old lady!! And left Idling! Looks awful shiny! Must have had excellent care! I've know several people that ran both 850's and 65's, and I don't think anyone of them would pic the Kom. As far as easy to work on, the 850 Deere is by far the easiest to work on with the tilting cab, and the Deere has half the parts of a Cat in the Drive Train. No brakes or steering clutches which are both high maitenance. The Cat and Deere are both very good machines, but if there was no competition against The Cat Dealer, they would be impossible to work with! That's why Deere and Komatsu get a lot of their buisness, it's because the Cat Dealer eventually upsets most of their customers over one thing or another, and people won't go back
Ok, you got me on that one The hour meter had been out of commission for a couple of years (stopped at 11,000+) so it might have only had 12,000 hours on it by that time. Whatever the true number, it was over twice what the Deere had. It was never driven on Sunday, I was too busy washing and waxing it to maintain it's shiny-ness, and the old lady NEVER left it idle! BTW, kudos on your ability to tell how many hours are on a machine from 200ft away- you might be able to get on TV with that:tong Seriously, most of the work around here is in mud or sand- no rock- so high-hour machines often still "look" good. Hmmmmm... that's the exact opposite of my experience. The operators I work with grab up the 65's first. Personally, I like the 850's, but I'm definitely in the minority. Oh right, I forgot that those pumps, motors and hoses in the Deere's lasted forever :falldownlaugh As for the tilting cabs, it's a good thing ours had 'em, because the JD guys sure got alot of use out of 'em. Had to put grease fittings on the cab tilt hinge pins, they were starting to wear out Just one more example of how our experiences differ. The Cat dealer here is very good (yeah, their prices are outrageous, but so are Komatsu's and Deere's) and their service is excellent. I never dealt much with Komatsu, but the local Deere dealer is horrible. Much of what I've said above is tongue in cheek, no offense intended:angel- but after many years of working with these machines under the same conditions- and call me a liar, call me a fool, if that makes you feel better- in my experience the Deere's fell apart quicker and more often than the Cat's or Komatsu's working alongside them. Your own experience may differ:drinkup
I'm learning lots! You definetly know your stuff Dave! :notworthy My posts are mostly just for fun to! I'm just here to relax and try to learn a few things. I'm finding a huge amount of information about everything from heavy equipment to Heavy Haul Trucks, not to mention what can be done with some of this equipment! :drinkup
Nahh, I just fake it. :duh This forum is great, it really is a lot of fun to have a discussion like the one above:beerchug Makes me think and let's me practice my snappy comebacks as well I learn a lot on here,too, and see equipment and techniques that I'd not know about otherwise. It also makes me feel good to see that there are a lot of young folks on here who love their work, take pride in themselves and their machines and have a work ethic.:thumbsup Good fun all around!:drinkup
I have been on machines my whole life and my honest opinion is that the weight/power distribution of Cat far exceeds any other machine that I have ran.
Dieseldave and Ironman make EXCELLENT points. It's the DEALER as much as the machine. A Bad dealer will ruin good machines, and a Good dealer will Make mediocre machines Worth It. And YES, Cat DOES **** their customers off, in MAJOR ways. Their dealers are usually generations-old, and they seem to have the attitude that you can Take It or LEAVE, they don't care. Unless you own a HUGE outfit, you're just a Number, and a Prospective Mark. Now, a Question. What brainless IDIOT came up with that stupid flat-face fitting and O-ring setup on John Deere's?! I swear, I'd like to drive him face-first into the dirt with a trackhoe! Not tight enough, it won't seal, and leaks. The LEAST BIT too tight, it ruins the O-ring and it leaks! You HAVE to have The Touch, seems like. That's why I just remove/replace hoses, and make The Boss torque the fittings himself. He says it saves on o-rings, and he's RIGHT. KY Jim
KY Jim, I'm a little confused about your comment regarding ORS hoses. O-ring faced seals are used by just about every manufacturer these days and typically are MUCH better in preventing leaks when compared to the old flare fittings.
i am looking at purchasing a newer midsize dozer!so i called a buddy who owns a heavy equipment repair shop,he repairs all types,he is not brand loyal whatsoever.he told me the 700j to 450j are the best machines going.anything bigger, cat all the way!anything older than the j series go cat!
Amen. Well said. Here in Alberta there's a lot of pressure to run Cat from the oilfield sector. Oilfield consultants want to see fleets of Cats on the leases as they think it's a prestige thing. Finning (Cat) is known among the contractors I associate with for their careless attitude. I spent a morning in their shop one time and there were more guys standing around toolboxes visiting than actually working all at $150/hr. Among the underground and roadbuilding contractors we see an aweful lot of Deere. The wheel loaders, smaller dozers, an excavators are predominantly Deere in northern Alberta. The contractor I used to work for had both Deere's and Cat's but I really fell in love with the Deere 700H for finishing. Smooth, fast, comfortable, and a good pusher; what more do you want?
i ran a jd 650 and i ran a jd450j lgp I liked them. Also I own a cat d4c and when I get a full blade of mud that dozer just keeps on goin the deeres seem that they just want to quit in that mud. But thats just my opinion