Hello. New member – my first post. I live in Washington State. I have a giant metal lathe, I love metal working, and fixing old machines. I’m happy to be here on these message forums. I just acquired a Caterpillar 12 grader. I don’t know the year (I’m unable to locate serial number on engine or frame). The backstory is that the grader broke down and was donated to a community college (the diesel department). The college never did anything with it, and they sold it at auction (how I got it). The college property manager told me the engine was seized. I asked him which engine (pony or the main diesel) – he had no idea. He said the school never got around to fixing it, and that it doesn't run. Just got it home. Upon initial inspection, all six injectors have been removed from the head (injectors are essentially gone – they didn’t come with the machine). There’s tape over the injector holes, and the engine was covered by the grader’s hood. Nonetheless, I need to borescope the holes to see if there’s any visible corrosion damage in the cylinders, and then attempt to bar it over. At the very least I'll need to track down a set of replacement injectors. Question: if the original engine is not repairable, are there other options for repower? More specifically – does the CAT D318 share a common bellhousing with any other diesel engines? I welcome any recommendations on how to proceed with troubleshooting.
That's a really nice-looking old Cat 12, and it's a shame to hear of it being abused and abandoned by people with no idea. These old Cat 12's are extremely reliable, and their major failing is their braking system, which needs constant attention. The brake wheel cylinders fail on a regular basis, and you need to remove the wheel hubs to access them. Are the precombustion chambers still in the cylinder head? - or were they removed, too? If so, you will need to source precoms as well as the injectors. The injectors are called "capsule" injectors and are easy to replace. Both the precoms and the injectors are readily available from many aftermarket suppliers. The D318 was a superb engine and many tens of thousands were built. Don't even consider an engine swap, it would not be worth the major effort involved, and it would reduce the value of the grader to an even lower level. Cat have never followed SAE engineering standards - they set their own. Typically, a splined shaft with a set diameter, when built to SAE standards, will have X number of splines - but Cat will typically manufacture that shaft, with one number less splines. So Cat conversions are costly. The serial number tag is located on the side of the main frame, close to the steering box, and just to the rear of it. The engine has the same serial number, and the serial number tag on the engine is located at the upper left rear of the engine block (looking towards the rear of the grader). If you can't find the S/No tag, but you can see the original small mounting holes, scrape the surface of the frame either side of the holes, the S/No is also stamped into the metal of the main frame. Once you find the S/No, acquire the Servicemans Reference Books. There is one for the grader, and one for the D318 engine. The grader SRB contains no engine overhaul information - only how to remove the engine from the grader. eBay is often a good source for manuals. Here's one for the D318. https://www.ebay.com/itm/224106198274 Cat identify their engines by bore size, as bore size was one of their main standards. Try to turn the main engine via a wrench on the front crankshaft pulley. If it doesn't want to turn, make up a mix of 50% ATF (Auto Transmission Fluid) and diesel, and pour half a cupful into each cylinder, and let it sit for a week. The ATF and diesel mix will clean up any corrosion and lubricate the piston and cylinder wall, and generally result in the engine freeing up. The greatest single reason for engines becoming stuck is rainwater entering engines via open exhausts.
I've looked over the whole engine. I simply cannot find the engine serial number. The front of the grader (above picture) contains the patent information plate, but no serial number plate. I didn't see any unused mounting holes for attaching a label plate. A previous owner weld-attached some angle-iron brackets to the front of the frame. Perhaps these brackets are covering the stamped serial numbers? Does someone have a picture of where the frame and engine serial numbers should be? The frame has been repainted (somewhat thick - could be covering). I can break out the needle-gun to search for stamped serial numbers, however I'd like to narrow my paint removal efforts to where the numbers should be. Note: I did find a serial number on the pony motor's magneto (3A 248216), but I'm not sure that helps. I also found like some fasters had been pulled from the air piping and coolant piping flanges (and not reinstalled). It looks like someone was in the process of getting ready to pull the engine, and then gave up. Probably not a good sign. . . . Question - what is the going price for a used D318 (running) - assuming I can source one?
Nice find, best of luck with finding parts. I have nothing else but I do have some knucklebuster experience if you get it going.
The S/No tag is a tiny tag and it's usually located right next to the much larger lubrication guide plate. Here's a photo of an electric start D318 in a Cat 12, the S/No tag is arrowed. I'm not familiar with complete good used engine pricing in the U.S., but I would expect you would have to pay a substantial amount for a good running D318 engine. Call John Parks at General Gear and Machine in Boise ID, he parts out antique Cats, and he'll be able to advise you of the current price of a good used D318. https://www.tractorparts.com/cat2.htm It'll be a much cheaper path to repair the engine you've already got. They're a pretty bulletproof engine.
Outstanding assistance! The frame serial number was in fact stamped in (tag missing) just under the welded-on bracket (the one holding up the make-shift headlights). The engine serial tag was hiding behind the pony motor's magneto - just as pictured above. Both the engine and frame serial numbers match (numbers are 8T14140). I suppose it's time to purchase manuals. . . . .
Great news! There were a total of 21,904 Cat 12 graders produced with the 8T S/No prefix, between 1947 and 1957. They were a very popular machine. 8T14140 was built in 1954 (1954 production ran from 8T13818 to 8T15522) and there will be a range of dismantled Cat graders and new aftermarket parts available for it. Buy a parts catalog as well, these are very useful for identifying engineering design changes, and how parts fit together. There are two parts catalogs, the first is 8T1-up, and the second is 8T14782-up. Buy the first one, it will cover your machine, whereas the later one doesn't. https://www.ebay.com/itm/403993383016
My plan is to borescope the cylinders first. If clear, see if the engine bars over. If the cylinders are messy (or otherwise seized), I'll probably pull the whole thing and tear it down. Question - where can I purchase a complete gasket set for the D318 engine? A few websites offer individual gaskets, but not a set. I suppose I can template & cut replacement cork and fiber gaskets, but I'd much rather purchase a complete set (head gasket being the critical part). I'm going to keep my eye out for a parts machine. I need to score some injectors, and my grader is missing its scarifier attachment.
I would start by oiling it up a little bit before you even considering barring it over. Take a look in there and then get some oil in there to start lubing up the rings.
Olsons Gaskets do a D318 Cylinder head gasket set, and they can also provide a "lower end" gasket set. https://www.olsonsgaskets.com/model/d318/ Also, Bulldog do gasket kits ... https://www.bulldogkits.com/categor...mbers-motor-graders?foo=bar&engine_model=D318 I'm not sure that you'll be able to acquire a full engine gasket kit in one box. It appears that Bulldog make the Cylinder head kit ("Valve grind" kit), and also a Supplementary gasket kit. John Parks is once again, the best source for a Cat 12 scarifier. There's one currently on eBay, located in TN, and he's asking North of $1500 for it, but it includes the gear drive mechanism, which you already have. https://www.ebay.com/itm/202652274165
I paid $1,335 (after sales tax & auction fees) for the grader. Would've had it for 350 bucks but someone else was bidding against me. The real variable is how much will it cost me to get it running? Question - did the CAT 12 grader ever come with a 4 cylinder? There's supposedly a CAT 12 with a dead 4 cylinder diesel engine not far from me. I might be able to purchase the whole parts machine - mainly for the scarifer attachment. I'm puzzled by the 4 cylinder however. I haven't set eyes on it yet. The guy insists it's a 4-cylinder CAT 12. . . Maybe not a CAT 12, but a smaller version of the same machine?
that's probably a Cat 112 It is a bit smaller and easier to move. That is the knucklebuster I have experience with at the union school.
Is it a safe assumption that the 112 scarifer will not a 12?
That's a very cheap Cat 12 for its overall good condition, and it shouldn't cost you a huge amount to get it fully operational again - especially if you have the skills, equipment, tools, and time to do the labour yourself - which you appear to have. There is no 4 cyl Cat 12, but the Cat 112 and Cat 212 are 4 cyl graders. The 4 cyl graders are deemed "maintenance" graders and the Cat 12 is a "construction" grader. The 12's increased power and weight make it easier to move tougher soil types. The only way of checking scarifier compatibility is to check the part numbers. It's not entirely unlikely the Cat 12 and the smaller Cat graders use the same scarifier - attachments such as Cat rippers often fit multiple models of machines, with the appropriate installation kit. The Cat scarifier tynes are interchangeable across all models.
As ususal; OzDozer is giving you some great advice. I echo his recommendation about getting Serviceman's Reference Book for both the grader and the D318 engine, the Parts book, and the Operators and Mainenance book. These books are invaluable in helping you get "acquainted" with the grader. I suggest taking your time assessing the condition of the grader and develop a refurbishment plan after you have evaluated the engines and power train. Undoubtedly, the plan will change after you start but getting your arms around what needs to be done is important. It's difficult to evaluate the grader without the engines running... I think that should be your first step.
We live in a neighborhood of 5 acre lots. We have a road association (a pseudo-HOA). Our annual budget is 10 grand, and we spend about 6 grand of that per year contracting out road grading services – the rest is spent on purchasing crushed basalt rock. Our neighborhood has about 4.5 miles of rock roads. The guy we hire has a finishing grader, maybe 10,000 pounds, not big enough to cut the crown. All he does is spread out freshly delivered rock and use his blade to clear out the culverts (narrowing our roads a few inches every time). It is quite irritating. To lower expenses (and in attempt to fix our roads properly) our road association purchased a grader (a Gallion 103). And just like what a bunch of complete morons would do, the Kens and Karins in our neighborhood voted to sell the grader – because “we’ve never needed a grader before” The neighborhood only owned the Gallion for a few months, and just like that we’re back to the same old scenario - where the same 4 or 5 people use their own time & equipment (Kubota tractors) to fill potholes for the benefit of everyone else. Not cool. I tried to explain that if we have a proper crown on our roads, that we’ll have much less potholes to fill. But there’s no arguing with some people. Interesting fact - the folks who voted to sell the Gallion are NEVER seen filling potholes. They simply complain to everyone else – demanding that others fill them on their behalf. The guy who’s been grading our roads is retiring (medical issues). Which is why I purchased the CAT 12. But this time, I own the grader – and not the ignorant road association. I’m also setting up some nice blast cabinets in the garage – for reconditing parts. I recon the cabinets will come in quite handy while fixing up this grader. One cabinet will use brown aluminum-oxide grit (for cleaning steel and cast-iron parts), and the other cabinet is vapor-blast (water & glass mixture – for cleaning aluminum parts). During the Covid insanity I was sent home for a few weeks. I used the time off to build my air compressor (pictured below - dual compressors, forklift ready, with built in moisture separator). We've got kids - thus wife mandated I incorporate a belt guard, or no compressor.. . . Now if it will just stop raining. . . . Question - Jensales.com offers electronic copies of the CAT 12 maintenance & parts manuals (PDF format). Is this a good route? I don't mind electronic copies - but 75 bucks per pop seems like a lot - for an electronic copy of an almost obsolete manual? I also need to test the paint on the grader (to see if its leaded paint). I'm assuming the OEM paint is lead-based. A fried is loaning me his borescope this weekend - to inspect the cylinders. The whole injector assemblies are missing (only a threaded hole in the head remains). The exhaust pipe is vertical & open (no muffler, no flapper - just open pipe). The most logical conclusion is that the coffee can was left off and rainwater entered the engine & sized it up. I'll know for sure this weekend. Will keep you guys posted. Maybe I can hone the existing cylinders and install new rings? I see that replacement piston/cylinder kits are about 260 bucks per hole. Not extreme - but not cheap either. . . . .
If you go through with the 112 purchase I might be a buyer for the machine without scarifier.
That compressor is a very professional looking item, and displays your high level of engineering skills. Satisfactory repair results to an old Cat 12 are obviously well within your skills level. The general opinion is that Jensales manuals have a poor level of reproduction quality. Purchase the old original Cat manuals/books from the eBay sellers that aren't demanding an arm and a leg for their "priceless antique books". If you can acquire a Military manual, I find they are even more comprehensive and well written. Here is a Military manual on eBay. https://www.ebay.com/itm/273797190402
Question - my CAT 12 only has one set of drum brakes (aka the rear axle only). Is this normal? I thought large graders had brakes on both rear axles (all four rear tires). Assuming for the moment that I track down a CAT 12 parts machine - to rob the scarifier attachment, injectors, and maybe an extra set of drum brakes? More specifically - would I gain anything by installing drum brakes on both rear axles? My plan is to convert the grader over to DOT-5 brake fluid. I've found that DOT-5 is much more forgiving than DOT-3 (DOT-5 doesn't seem to suck up water and size the wheel cylinders). The grader's brake lines have seen better days, and the hoses require immediate replacement (visible cracking all over the rubber). Our neighborhood is generally flat. Only a few short hills - nonetheless, brakes are important. The grader currently has 12-ply 13.00-24 tires all around (all six). The tires are nearing end-of-life - not much tread left. I called my local tire store and they can sell me 12-ply 13.00-24 grader tires for as low as $380 each, up to $650 each. I'm assuming these are tube-type (grader appears to have split-rims). I am going to wait until the machine is running like a top before I entertain the idea of purchasing new tires. The tires currently on it are holding air. I will purchase paper copies the manuals. Thanks for the heads-up about Jensales. I have used electronic tech-manuals in the past, they work, but I don't like going into the house to look something up while I'm actively working on stuff. I suppose I could get a computer for the garage, but I'm not quite there yet. I purchased a Komatsu manual (PDF) for my little excavator, and a type-o within the hydraulic pilot circuit diagram caused me headaches for weeks. Regarding the potential 112 parts machine. I was told it worked great until the engine seized. I don't know if it seized during use, or while parked. I haven't discussed price. I only know he's willing to let it go, and he can deliver it. My assumption is that he's not going to want much more than scrap value. . . . . But my assumptions have been wrong in the past. I'll let you know what he says.
cool. I have a soft spot for the 112. I think I can manage it on the tilt trailer.
Dot 5 is synthetic I think and don't think it's compatible with Dot 3 or Dot 4 fluid or the seals in non synthetic systems.
Simple enough system if you're changing all the rubber, go for it. NO WAY I'd add more brakes if you're not doing critical steep or mountainous work. If you do add more, but on the same circuit, you're just making the brakes less reliable, more places to leak fluid out. A single circuit brake system on one axle doesn't bother me at all, aren't the rear axles chained together anyway? There's always the big yellow brake. Same with painting, no way I'd sandblast ANYTHING on that, if you're worried about lead, pressure wash only, in an out of the way designated spot, use ospho, prime with a rusty metal primer and paint over it, just like it's been painted over several times already. Let us know what you find with the borescope, if that can be loosened up realistically, then the next step is getting the injector pump pumping. Then injectors are easy.
I completely spaced that the wheels are chained together. No need for extra drums. I'd only be introducing extra points-of-failure. If the paint is leaded, my plan is to simply avoid disturbing the paint. If I must remove paint (for whatever reason) I'll use chemical strippers to the maximum extent possible. Blasting is a non-starter with leaded paint. The trick to converting to DOT-5 is to completely flush all DOT-3 from the system (otherwise the two fluids react to form a gel substance that plugs up the system). Once rubber parts are wetted with DOT-3 (rubber lines, o-rings, seals, etc) they cannot be cleaned enough - the DOT-3 fluid is imbedded in the surface of the rubber, and the fluids will react. Thus all rubber soft goods must be replaced when switching to DOT-5 (master cylinder, wheel cylinders, brake hoses). The steel lines can be flushed with solvent & blown dry with air - to remove all traces of DOT-3. Note that US Military vehicles have been using DOT-5 for decades. They will often park military vehicles for years at a time, and brake failures are rare - because DOT-5 is required under contract to manufacture military vehicles. The only problem with DOT-5 is that it's not compatible with virtually all modern ABS systems (plastics used within ABS micro spool valves will be attacked by DOT-5). Tip - if you ever want to retrofit a car or truck with DOT-5, make sure there's no ABS (or that you remove it).
Remove the oil fill/level plug on the injection pump and see if there is any oil in the injection pump. If it is silvery or very dry, you may have a problem. If it looks ok, top it up if its low. That is how the inj pump cam, lifters and bearings are lubed. Its quite often overlooked on those engines
The Cat graders all had only two-wheel brakes up until around the late 1950's, when they then started to be fitted with 4 wheel brakes. They are the biggest maintenance item on the grader, and just trying to keep them in working condition for an extended period is a black art. I have used pure silicone brake fluid many years ago on a Cat 930 wheel loader, and it worked very well to prevent wheel cylinder rusting, the constant enemy of drum brakes. Even though the 930 had disc brakes, the pistons in the calipers suffered from the same problems as the pistons in wheel cylinders in the Cat drum brakes - corrosion when operating in muddy conditions and enduring regular immersion in water. I have always operated on the basis that engines are the relatively easy repair on all Cats. There are a lot more costly repair areas to become involved in, in old Cat 12's. Eliminating wear from linkages in the blade mechanism and steering linkages can become very costly to repair. The steering on the old Cats is like the steering on forklifts, it is being used constantly while the grader is in operation. Tyres are the type of thing you can leave until they don't grip the ground any more. Yes, they are flat base, tube-type tyres with a locking ring. Either get a tyre shop to do them, or arrange to have friends help with a tyre change - they're hard, heavy work to repair. To work on the wheel brake cylinders, you need to press off the wheel hubs and press them back on again. They're on a taper, and they're on TIGHT! Always ensure you position something to stop the hub from flying off when you pull on them. They can travel a considerable distance unimpeded, once they come off the taper, and cause bodily injury. Check all brake lines for corrosion which causes pinholes and leaks. The original lines were bad for corrosion, and many have been damaged by debris that was picked by the wheels (typically, stray fencing wire) which wraps around them, or which simply hits them and bends them.
I fixed the brakes on my old 8T #12 once. They lasted for 3 weeks. Then i said to hell with it and ran it without brakes for over 30 years. Just carried the moldboard low to the ground in case i had to use it to stop
The Big Yellow Brake trumps all others in efficiency. Controlability not so much...........
I'm curious about the oil for the injectors. Why wouldn't the injectors share crankcase oil? I'm also wondering about pressing of the hubs. I suppose lots of my questions will be answered when my manuals arrive. My friend's borescope is lost, thus I just purchased one myself. It should get here in time for this weekend. The scope will take color digital pictures of what I'm looking at. It might also take video too, but I'm not sure. I should be able to post some nice color pictures from within the inside of the cylinders this weekend. If rainwater has in fact locked up the engine, it should be pretty obvious within the borescope pictures. On a somewhat related note - a different friend of mine owns & operates a metal recycling yard. I told him that if an old CAT grader ever comes in, to please not cut it up (process it for recycling) - and to give me a call. Broken graders are typically scrapped in the springtime (which is right around the corner). He probably gets 5 graders per year - of various makes. I've found purchasing machine-parts at scrap-value is usually the best-value.
The early fuel injection pumps on old Cats had a separate oil reservoir simply due to the engineering thinking of the era, that the pump was a separate device that needed its own oil reservoir. I guess in that era the engineers considered it too dangerous to run a dedicated oil supply pipe to the injection pump, as the pipe could get damaged, and then the oil supply could be lost to both engine and injection pump. The wheel hubs can be easily removed by fabricating a heavy "steering wheel puller" type of puller. Simply a heavy piece of plate or bar, with a big fine thread nut centrally welded to it, and two equidistant holes each side - to match the two threaded holes in the wheel hub. Attach the bar to the hub using two high tensile (grade 8) bolts of adequate length, and then screw a full-thread bolt into the nut to push against the end of the axle. However, to replace the hub will require machining a threaded adaptor to fit the thread on the end of the axle, and to accommodate a hollow threaded porta-power press ram. You also need to fabricate a press collar that goes over the axle, and which fits between the hub and the porta-power ram. You then simply screw the adaptor to the end of the axle, slip the press collar over it, attach the porta-power ram, and press the hub back on. I STR that 25 tons of hydraulic pressure is needed. The proper Cat hydraulic press rams have a shaft with a hole in the end of them, so the press ram can be simply pinned into position, using holes in the genuine threaded adaptor. But if you fabricate your own press arrangement, using a standard porta-power ram, you will need to figure out how best to attach the press ram to your adaptor.
Interesting. Do you have any pictures of these DIY parts? This sounds almost as painful as pressing pins in excavator tracks. . . . .
I recently built a hydraulic power supply (pics below). I've got a tubing bender that I desire to convert from manual to hydraulic, and I needed a power unit - so I built one. It's got quick disconnects. Might also come in handy for pressing CAT 12 hubs back on. . ..
Summit racing has a handy search function for rubber brake lines, they were relatively standard and you'll probably find ones close enough without much trouble. What's the pressure on that hydraulic unit? most portable mechanic's type hydraulics is built off the porta power system of 10,000PSI. Cylinders on lower pressure would just be too big to handle. It's all about force, not power, so hand pumping isn't that big a deal. If you can rig it up, a 30 or 40 ton bottle jack will do the work. Way more work to set it up than to pump it for the pressing.
I'll have to check out the Summit search engine for brake lines. They've got a pretty good radiator search function that I've used. The other search engine I really like is WIX filter lookup https://www.wixfilters.com/Lookup/FilterBySize.aspx You can search filters by size (air, oil, hydraulic, fuel, coolant, etc). Excellent part-number cross-reference also. If you've got a mystery spin-on filter, you can find applicable filter part number through the WIX search engine. My power unit pump is rated for 4000 psig, however the spool valve has a relief currently set for 2000 psig. I would need about a 6" diameter ram to hit 25 tons at 2000 psig, or about a 4" ram to hit 25 tons at 4000 psig. I have some surplus 6" cylinders on the shelf. They are about 30" stroke, and WAY too heavy to lift by hand. Depending on the stroke required to press the hubs, I could shorten a cylinder significantly.
I have no pictures of hub pressing arrangements, everyone who has a lathe, has their own ideas on what to construct. There's nothing really painful or highly technical about it. There are photos of removing the hubs with a standard OTC or Snap-on "H" bar puller in the Cat tool catalogs and in the manuals - but surprisingly, I can find no photos of the hubs being pressed back on - Cat obviously deemed it too simple a process to photograph. However, there is a list of the Cat adaptor and press components required for the Cat 12 wheel hub removal, in the Cat Tool Catalog. Your hydraulic unit is a very well made unit, but most hydraulic pumps only work on around 2,500psi. You need a 10,000 psi pump to operate press rams. Not surprisingly, the Chinese manufacture a small 10,000 psi air-and-foot-treadle operated portable pump, and it's cheap. I picked up one last year for AU$134 (around US$93) and it works very well. https://www.vevor.com.au/air-hydrau...lift-foot-pump-1-2-gal-1m-hose-p_010886091301
The 10,000 psi rams are convenient - in that they're lightweight & compact. The rams, valves, and hoses can also be quite expensive to procure. I prefer to run larger cylinders at lower hydraulic pressures. The oil runs cooler, there's less stress on the pump, the cylinder-seals last longer, and I can run off-the-shelf standard hydraulic hose, valves, fittings, cushioning valves, flow-regulators, etc (in lieu of the specialized 10,000 psi components $$$). Again, just a personal preference. Just for ****-chat - my little Takiuchi excavator runs at about 2800 psig hydraulic pressure and works great. My larger Komatsu however runs at 5100 psig system pressure. Komatsu could've easily designed slightly larger displacement cylinder/motors and utilized lower pump pressures. Why they designed for such high hydraulic system-pressure is beyond me. I blew a hose last summer and I thought someone fired a shotgun next to the machine.
Higher pressure is much more efficient in addition to being able to use smaller cylinders.
I don't know anything about graders, but I am thoroughly enjoying reading about this project. I'm learning a great deal as well. Eagerly anticipating the writeup of what you find with the borescope!
For a pipe bender or log splitter, yes. Nobody could build a modern excavator competitively without higher pressures though. Something like this hub puller that will be used a few times, a bottle jack or $100 porta power pump and more expensive cylinder seems the easy way to me. Ironic that we're having this discussion on a thread about a knuckle buster grader
Still waiting on the borescope to arrive. To pass the time, here's some pictures of my gantry crane. I purchased a cool horizontal milling machine (old US Navy surplus) and it was beyond the capacity of my forklift, so I built a gantry crane to move it. This crane is how I intend to pull the CAT 12 grader engine for rebuild (if required). The crane is point-loaded with about 8000 pounds within the picture.
More ****-chat - here's my 10 HP rotary phase converter - to power these old metal working machines. I took the electric motor from an old concrete cutting saw (purchased at auction). I put it on wheels so I could roll it around the garage. It turns out I never have to roll it around. . . . It works pretty good though.
I recently discovered that VFD converters are available pretty cheap, mounted one semi permanently in a 3 hp blower machine I have. Not the usual VFD derated for single phase input but an actual unit by Hitachi that has 2 inputs and 3 outputs and can do soft starting and vary speed if you are into that sort of thing but without all the bells and whistles of a fancy VFD.
I love VFDs. I put one on my little benchtop lathe. Swapped out the original 3/4 HP single-phase motor for a 1-1/2 HP three-phase motor with VFD. The lathe now has a wide speed adjustment (without having to adjust belts) - and still has plenty of torque to make chips. The biggest problem with VDFs is that my shop only has single phase power available - which means I need to purchase double the size VFD for the rated HP of the 3-phase motor I'm running (the whole 50% derating for single-phase input). My 10 horsepower rotary phase converter powers most my stuff. My large lathe however (pictured below) has a 40 horsepower spindle motor (230/460V 3-phase). I would need to purchase upwards of a 100 horsepower VFD to properly power my lathe with single-phase input (lots of $$$). Instead I went the rotary phase converter route (twin 40 horsepower rotary converters wired in parallel)
All right so when are you and I going to go look at this 112? I'm in the south sound but I'll travel. We can use a tape measure and take meticulous notes and know if that scarifier is going to fit or not.
Nothing wrong with a rotary phase converter, or a static converter either. I don't have a bunch of big machines like that, so I use a few capacitors here and there, some manual start, some with a hard start kit relay from an AC. And a cheapo VFD for an attic fan, full speed for blowing the house out with the leafblower, low speed for cooling off overnight. The idea of hydraulics running cooler at lower pressure was bugging me, then I remembered the comparison to electricity. If we are casual enough to compare pressure to voltage, the voltage/pressure drop is what causes heat, that drop multiplied by the flow is the heat loss. So voltage drop x amps, is roughly the same as the pressure drop x flow. The key is that voltage or pressure drop is based ONLY on the resistance at a certain flow, it is not affected by the absolute voltage or pressure. So a hydraulic line that has 20 PSI drop at 10GPM will have that same drop and produce the same heat whether it is operating at 40 PSI or 4,000PSI. Likewise an electric line that has 5V drop at 200A will produce the same heat at 12V or 20,000V (more importantly to the 12V system, the delivered voltage will be 7V vs 19,993V, or 42% loss vs .025%) That's only one factor in electrical losses, possibly even less important in hydraulics, I have no idea.
The 112 grader is in Kitsap County WA. The guy selling it has recently stopped responding to texts or e-mails (I'm worried the guy might be in jail). I suspect the grader ultimately belongs to his dad (family business). They do logging & construction. He told me they used the grader about 3 times per year for maintaining the access road to their property - until it broke down. If I can't get ahold of the guy, I might attempt to contact his dad. I looked at the property on Google (satellite view) and could see a yellow grader parked next to some old trucks & shipping containers. I'm hesitant to drive out to the property unannounced (I don't want to get shot). I'll keep you posted. All I'm after is a scarifier attachment (provided it fits my CAT 12). There are still a lot of unknown variables - mainly his sale price (which was never discussed). I'm willing to fabricate a scarifer attachment, but I'd much rather purchase one.
Sure thing. I drive through Kitsap county from my house to our future home site so it's not out of my way.
The overwhelming vast majority of heat-input into hydraulic fluid happens within the pump. Line-losses (viscosity shear-forces acting along the piping's boundary layer) will technically generate small amounts of heat throughout the piping - but these line-losses remain almost trivial compared to the large differential pressure-loads placed onto hydraulic motors & cylinders (aka the machine doing work) - all of these loads are ultimately placed onto the pump. Example: if you are putting 10 mechanical horsepower into a hydraulic pump that's 85% efficient, it means 8.5 horsepower is actually pumping the fluid, and the remaining 1.5 horsepower is lost as heat introduced into the oil. Note 1.5 horsepower is equal to about 1119 watts, or 3818 BTU/hour - this is the thermal generated-load that MUST be removed from the fluid, or you'll overheat the entire hydraulic system (think sizing your oil cooler) Here's what's interesting. If the 10 HP pump in the above example is operating at 2000 psig, you'll generate 1.5 horsepower of heat (pump is 85% efficient). If it's running at 4000 psig (same 10 HP input), you generate 1.5 HP of heat (pump is 85% efficient). The temperature-rise within hydraulic fluid at 4000 psig will be more than it is at 2000 psig, because the fluid is moving half as fast through the pump at 4000 psig (oil ultimately spends more time getting hot inside the pump). Overall system power-performance will be nearly identical between the two operating pressures. The main difference is that the 2000 psi system will have less temperature-rise of 4000 psig, and will have a slightly larger pressure drops across the system piping (due to the increased flow-velocity). The downside with the 2000 psig system is that you need double the surface-area on your cylinders to get the same pushing force on your machine. It is understandable that excavator companies want to run very high pressures. A 6.5 inch diameter cylinder at 3000 psig will make the same force as a 5 inch cylinder at 5000 psi. There is no doubt that smaller cylinders ultimately cost less to manufacture, and small cylinders also reduce the unnecessary installed weight on the machine. Additional notes: AW-46 hydraulic oil has a density of about 7.2 pounds per gallon, and a specific heat capacity of roughly 0.45 btu/lbm-F (typical fluid operating temps). In the above example, 8.5 hydraulic horsepower at 2000 psig will have a pump discharge flowrate of 7.29 gpm. At 4000 psig the flowrate is half, or about 3.64 gpm. Assuming the hydraulic oil is entering the pump at 120 degrees F, the temperature of the oil existing the pump will be 122.7 degrees F at 2000 psig, or 125.4 degrees F at 4000 psig. Whereas the ultimate thermal load placed upon the systems oil cooler remains the same - 63.64 BTU/min, or 3818 BTU/hr, or 1.5 horsepower of heat.
Curious if you have a larger welder than the AC/DC buzz box? It's kind of out of place with your other equipment.
Double post
I have a Lincoln 275 welder. I mainly use it for TIG welding, however the machine can hit higher currents than the AC/DC buzz-box when SMAW welding, which is required for the larger 3/16 hard-facing rod that I have. I also picked up 1200 pounds of 9018 weld rod (also size 3/16") in unopened 50# cans - got it at auction for 250 bucks (amazing deal). It's wonderful rod, but again - the little AC/DC buzz-box doesn't have enough guts to lay it down properly. The 9018 seems happy at 210 to 220 amperes, whereas the hard-facing rod likes closer to 300 amperes (both DCEP). I've only got single-phase power at my house - thus my options for larger welding machines are very limited. If I had 3-phase power in my shop, trust me - I'd have massive welding equipment. I've passed up large 3-phase welders at auction - probably hundreds of times. I have a Miller 350P wire-feed (set up for dual-sheld) I have a Miller 120 (set up for sheet metal - solid core) I have an oxy-propane torch (for cutting) I have an oxy-acetylene torch (for brazing) I have a small plasma cutter - will cut up to 1/2" (very slowly) - mainly use it on sheet metal. The little AC/DC buzz-box I use the most. My rods of choice are 6011 and 7018 - mainly 1/8" and 3/32" I have an oven in the shop for keeping the low-hydrogen rod dry. I reskinned the bucket on my Komatsu with 5/8" plate and hard-faced it (below pic). The original plate was worn paper thin in several spots. I used regular mild-steel (didn't have anything stronger at the time). It came out pretty good. Komatsu makes their buckets a little funny. They layer a bunch of thinner plate together, in lieu of using one solid piece. I was through all the layers, and down to the last one. Apparently the layering technique results in less bucket noise on the construction site (deadens the acoustic ringing of the bucket from impact). Well, i suppose now my bucket is loud. . . . My friend with the recycling yard acquired some 3/8" thick DH-36 steel plate, and several nice pieces of HY-80 (1/2", 3/4", and 1" thick). It was scrapped by Vigor Marine - presumably left over plate from one of their contract jobs. I purchased a bunch of it. The rod of choice for welding HY-80 is 11018, however the 9018 will give satisfactory results - with the proper preheat. My biggest complaint about the 9018 (3/16) is that the slag falls right off the weld when doing overhead. Honestly it's hard for me to keep the slag over the weld when vertical welding. For me it's pretty much a horizonal rod - even though it's marked all position. For out-of-position welding I use 1/8" 6011 or 7018 (or the wire feed)
Man, you've got enough equipment in that shop to restore steam locomotives. A Cat grader with a few problems is going to be a walk in the park for you. How long is that lathe bed? - and did you have many problems setting the bed for accuracy?
The lathe bed is just under 20 foot. It weighs about 25,000 pounds (weight estimated by the crane operator). The lathe was manufactured in 1960 and was originally owned by the US Navy. The Navy donated to a community college in the 1980s. The college wired it up and it sat forever unused. They wanted to offload it to make room, so I purchased it from the school (at auction) for $3,200 bucks after tax. It cost me an additional $2,500 cash to get home. The guys who transported it home complained that they underbid the job (which they did) - so I tipped them 400 bucks. We set the headstock-end down onto the concrete (on top of equipment skates) and set the tailstock end onto the dirt. Then we picked up the tailstock-end and rolled the lathe into the shop. Right about the time the crane's tilt warning lit up, we had it where it needed to be. As far as leveling. It's pretty close. I need to get a machinist out to my house with a precision level and have him dial it for me.
I was reading an article about navy ships and never realized they had a full compliment of large machine tools and a machine shop(s) on board. A lot of the machines are like new when the ships are decommissioned. They usually sell for pretty reasonable but getting them out I think would be the hardest part.
Dave - Yes, the ships engineers will even do major engine rebuilds in mid-ocean - including big-end bearing reconditioning, in-situ! There's some great videos and documentation on the 'net of the work they carry out, it's amazing what they can do.
This thread just keeps getting better. First one old grader, then the possibility of a second, then cool home built shop equipment, then a couple old mills and a great big old lathe! Plus interesting electrical, hydraulic, welding and repair chatter.
Here are some pictures. Ignore the date-stamp - I just took these about 10 minutes ago (I skipped the formatting of the camera) I'm thinking that the entire injector assembly is not missing - but rather just the top portion. My little camera has a diameter of 7.9 mm (0.311 inches), and I was unable feed into the main 4.5" combustion cylinder - I got stuck at the bottom of the injector opening. The pictures are posted below from outside moving inward.
And further in - I might be looking at the top of the piston, but I'm clearly not inside the cylinder like I hopped I'd be. I can't see the cylinder walls. Camera gets stuck about 2 inches down the injector hole.
And here's my crappy exhaust pipe (the one you must cover with a soup can to keep rain out). I was able to feed it down to the bottom of the main exhaust manifold. I didn't attempt to push the probe any further. I don't see any rust in the bottom of the exhuast manifold, but that doesn't really mean anything. It only takes one good rain event (with the soup can removed) to size the engine. . . . . Again, ignore the date stamp on the pictures - I just took these today (skipped part of the camera setup, and got right to it. . . .)
The precombustion chamber is still in position there - what is missing, is the capsule injector, the retaining nut for the capsule, and the injector line. If the exhaust pipe is open to the weather, rainwater will have travelled straight through to the cylinders that have valves in the open position. The water will gradually drain into the crankcase, but the cylinder walls will corrode rapidly in the presence of heavy moisture.
Well crap. What do I do next? I might be looking at the top of the piston, but I'm clearly not inside the cylinder like I hopped I'd be. I can't see the cylinder walls - to see if water had gotten it and siezed things up. The camera gets stuck about 2 inches down the injector hole. The exhaust inspection really didn't tell me anything either. Maybe I should soak the cylinders in WD-40 for a few days, and then try to bar it over?
The problem is that I have no idea why this thing was taken out of service. I might just bite the bullet and yank the whole engine - then fully disassemble. The previous owner yanked the injectors - presumably to soak the cylinders - and gave up on it. The college gave up on it also. Some fasteners were removed - in locations that suggest someone was getting ready to pull the engine. Piston/cylinder kits are about 300 bucks per hole (x6). A complete gasket set will be about 600 bucks. The cylinder head is an unknown. I'd probably take it in for servicing (seats & guides, or a valve job at the least) - the head could be 500 to 1500. It's been a while since I sent a crank out for turning. I think it needs to go to by truck to Portland. Crap. . . .
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0BL7LYR9Y On a happy note - the new borescope camera is really nice. I felt it was quite inexpensive - considering the quality. It takes pictures and video.
Make up a mix of 50% diesel and 50% ATF, pour half a cupful of the mixture into each precom chamber and leave it for a week, and it will bar over. You could try fitting the camera down through the precom chambers, but all you're going to see is rusty cylinder walls, anyway. WD-40 is pretty useless for freeing up stuck engines, I've heard guys say the stuff only encourages more corrosion! The ATF will clean up the rust, and the diesel will lubricate the bore and rings. You won't need new cylinders and pistons and rings, you're indulging in overkill thinking. These things were built to last 100 years.
What he said and what I said in the beginning. Get a dose of oil in there and just take your time. Give it that week and then don't attack it with the bar and expect instant gratification.
I will do the 50/50 diesel/transmission mix. I can wait a week for them to soak. Question - which direction does the engine normally turn (standing behind the grader - looking at the water pump end of the engine)?
Hypothetical Question: Assume for the moment that my attempts to unstick the engine with 50/50 diesel/transmission mix are unsuccessful. Would there be any advantage to pull the head (without pulling the engine) and attempt to further clean the cylinders by hand? I'm worried the part that's stuck is between the piston and cylinder, and not necessarily the cylinder above the piston. Further Hypothetical Question: Let's assume the engine is really stuck. Is it feasible to pull and disassemble it, then lightly hone the cylinders, clean up the pistons, and install new rings? The obvious variable would be how deep the corrosion damage is in the cylinder walls. I don't mind doing the labor - I just don't like to spend money unless I have too. . . . If I'm that far into it - at which point do I purchase cylinder kits?
The school was going to take the engine out because that's what they do. Doesn't matter if it ran like a top, they'd pull the engine apart and put it back together, every semester. You don't have to wait to try to turn it over. Put a socket on the crankshaft, or pull the starter and pry on the ring gear (don't pound on the ring! or use a big bar, just a little leverage) I don't see any rust in those pictures, I'd expect rust if there was water in there, even if the engine was still free. Look at the curve of the fan blade to see which way the engine turns or the ring gear, the bevel is on the back side of the gear as the starter turns it. so the forward side of the gear as the engine turns.
What is the direction of airflow? Does the fan pull air through the radiator, or push it? This might seem trivial, but I'm not quite sure that the fan is installed correctly either. The exhaust gaskets are rotated 90 degrees - implying they pulled the exhaust manifold, then quickly slapped it back on (below pic). Fasteners connecting the water neck to the radiator are missing. Fasteners connecting the air inlet manifold to the engine are missing. Fasteners that hold the small exhaust piping for the pony motor are missing. Fasteners holding the cover containing the fuel pressure gauge are missing (all but one) The fan belt is currently not around the crankshaft pulley. The injectors are missing. The fasteners that hold the engine cover (hood) are missing. Also - not quite visible in the second picture, there are electrical wires (below the gas-fill cap, near the top of the chassis frame-rail) that are burnt badly (electrical fire - the fire damage was limited to just the wires). It looks like the wires rubbed through the insulation and shorted against the frame. The circuit was obviously not properly fused. The wiring terminals to the pony motor starter & magneto have been disconnected. It would appear that someone was also trying to troubleshoot the electrical. The easy fix for the electrical will be to simply replace the wiring. Perhaps the wiring fault initially took out the machine, and frustrated by the electrical fault, the guy walked away from the machine and forgot to cover the exhaust? Who knows. . . . I really wish my manuals were here. I hate jumping into a partially disassembled project. I suppose the good news is that the college never touched it - implying that everything I'm seeing was done by the previous owner (who donated it to the college). It's too bad I can't contact the guy. I'd love to ask him about the history of the machine.
It is far more simple than you are posting here. 1) bar it over. if it moves go to 2) put the parts back on. get injectors. freshen up the fuel. 3) get pony going. fix wiriing as needed, There is very little wiring so don't sweat that either. Field wire generator wire and that is it for the generator. 4) get it rolling with the pony. add fuel. chunka chunka chunka.
We shall see. I hope you are right. I'll tinker with it this weekend. I'll also post pictures of the electrical fire damage.
Those are easy to pull the exhaust manifold off to check which cylinder drank the water. Then you can narrow it down.
Question - how do I find my engine serial number prefix? The serial number on the engine is 8T14140. Note: I'm being asked if it's a 3V, 5V, 6V - there is no 8T option. . . ?
The engine S/N prefix is 8T. More correctly 08T in today's online information system, but it matters not because no information for a machine that old will exist online anyway. Your machine dates from an era when the engine installed a machine carried the same Serial Number as the machine itself. Therefore provided the engine is the original then the answer to the question you are being asked is 8T and even if you can't find a Serial Number on the machine anywhere the chances are quite good that 8T14180 is also your machine S/No From my Serial Number book the #12 grader was manufactured under the following seven different Serial Number prefixes in the US along with first year of production. My information may be not be 100% complete but it's the best I have. 9K - 1938, 6M - 1939, 7T/8T - 1947, 80C - 1955, 70D/71D - 1957. Regarding the other S/N prefixes you were being asked about. 3V is a D318 genset engine, 5V is a D318 industrial engine, & 6V is a D318 marine engine.
I just got off the phone with a parts supplier that sells D318 engine rebuild parts (cylinder kits, bearing, valves, seals, etc) . He told me 8T14140 is an invalid part number for a CAT 12 grader. Maybe I should've said 08T.
See this quote from Ozdozer's post on Page 1. He even gave you the year it was built so it's a genuine number. Your parts man is talking out of his rear end I feel. I'd be interested to hear what others think.... I'd suggest to take Ozdozer's advice and get hold of a parts manual before you start trying to buy parts. Then you can phone up parts people and tell them what Part Number(s) you are looking for instead of blundering around like a blind man in a darkened room. My 2c. YMMV.
I did take Ozdozer's advice. The reason I was asking about the prefix number of my engine was because I was purchasing manuals, and I wasn't sure which manuals to purchase (aka, 3V, 5V, or 6V, or ???) - so I simply purchased an assortment - they were all pretty cheap. The following manuals are ordered (paper copies): 1952 Diesel No 12 Motor Grader Parts Catalog Caterpillar SN 8T1-Up Caterpillar D6 Dozer No. 12 Grader 4 1/2" 6 CYL D318 Engine Service Manual Caterpillar Vintage No. 12 Motor Grader Servicemen's Reference Book Caterpillar D318 OPERATION & MAINTENANCE MANUAL ENGINE BOOK GUIDE sn 45B1+ Caterpillar D318 ENGINE PARTS CATALOG MANUAL SN 5V5001-UP Caterpillar D318 ENGINE PARTS CATALOG MANUAL 3V5001-UP If these don't get me the information I need, I'll purchase some more. . . I also wasn't questioning Odozer's previous post - regarding his decoding of the year my Grader (I took what he said as factual). Again, the reason I called the parts-shop was to see if they could tell me my engine prefix (it would be in their interest to do so - presumably if they desired to sell me any D318 engine parts). I wasn't expecting him to tell me my Grader has an invalid serial number. I still haven't tried to bar over my engine. I'm going to read over the manuals first. If I do end up pulling the engine and disassembling, the first step will be to check iron for cracks (to make sure it's even rebuildable). Not purcahsing any parts yet.
That gives you a good clue as to how much to trust their advice in that case...........
The engine parts are in the machine parts book. That engine don't have an injector it has a nozzle, holder and bonnet cap that are missing. Bad Bob
8T14140 is the grader serial number, not a Cat part number, so the parts man isn't exactly the sharpest tool in the box. You will find very little online information in Cat current records as regards a machine this old, it is 100% antique to Cat, and they long ago discarded their "no orphans" parts policy (it was 1955, IIRC). The grader was built in the era of printed manuals and books, and they're still your best reference. The current engine serial number prefix, which has been divided into model number prefix and engine arrangement number, does not apply to your machine, as this prefix/arrangement number system was not introduced until around 1972-73. However, Cat did start to use engine prefix numbers for industrial, marine and genset engines in the late 1940's. Those engine books you bought will be useful, but they're not 100% accurate, as they apply to the various engine applications where some components have been changed or added for the application. The engine model number for your grader (D318) is still a good reference start for engine parts. However, it will take a good Cat parts man to drill down into "previous models" records to try and find any reference to the engine. In the early days of Cat online parts information, the parts interpreters had a separate reference source for older products. That reference may not even exist today, in Cats online parts record system. However, all aftermarket suppliers will immediately recognise "D318" for a start point for looking up engine parts.
I can generally find parts information for older equipment in the online resource, but nothing going this far back in time. As Oz says, this is a case where the (correct) paper Parts Manual is pretty much the only good resource available. Another thing. Many of the Part Numbers in your paper Parts Manuals will be written in an older format to the one used today. You might well come across a Part Number such as 6N968, 2P726 or 6V44. The newer format of writing such numbers is always 6 characters. 1 number, 1 letter, then 4 numbers. So in today's system 6N968 becomes 6N0968, 2P726 becomes 2P0726, and 6V44 becomes 6V0044.
If you can wait 2 months, i can look up the parts info in my 8T #12 parts book but its packed away for our big move in the middle of march but i suspect you want the info sooner than that and i currently have no idea where its packed
I would not think of pulling the engine. Any work you need to do will likely be possible in frame. The only reason for pulling the engine is if the crank needs to come out which is unlikely.
... or the master clutch needs to be repaired.
My first two manuals came today (D318 Parts Catalog 3V5001-UP and D318 Parts Catalog 5V5001-UP). I’m looking at the injection part numbers (for my missing injection components), and the part numbers are different between the 3V and 5V engine. Several of the component names are different also. They are as follows: Ring, Part No. 4F5675 (5V) or Seal Assembly, Part no. 6F1069 (3V) Nut, Part No. 4F5677 (5V) or Nut, Part no. 5H7225 (3V) Body, Part No. 4F5682 (5V) or Body, Part no. 4F5682(3V) Nozzle Assembly, Part No. 4F4236 (5V) or Valve Service Group, Part no. 9F5937 (3V) Ring, Part No. 4F5676 (5V) or Seal, Part no. 5B3718 (3V) So which injector part numbers does my engine take? In browsing through the online parts stores, it appears that some of the injector seals properly cross-reference (interchange) – but not everything seems to cross. There is also a D318 Parts Catalog for the 6V, 45B, and 53B serial prefix. I have looked and can’t seem to find a D318 parts catalog for an 8T series (or 08T) series engine.
Pay attention ,that motor is in the machine parts book. Bad Bob
I apricate your help Bluox. I did read your post (#78), and I failed to make the connection that you were telling me that the engine's exploded views with engine-component part numbers are contained within Motor Grader Parts Catalog (which is still in the mail - don't have yet). In my online search for manuals, I incorrectly concluded that the D318 engine and CAT 12 grader each had separate parts & service manuals. It will be interesting to see whether or not the injector components are different between the 8T, 3V, and 5V series D318 engines - and what the differences are (if any).
Question - does the CAT 12 grader have a standard SAE bellhousing & bolt-pattern, but with a non-standard-spline transmission input shaft? Or are both the bellhousing pattern & transmission input shaft CAT specific (aka non-SAE standard)? I know that Detroit diesel used standardized bell housing patterns beginning in 1938 (diametrically & rabbit-fit) although the drilled bolt pattern for their bellhousings was not standardized until sometime in the 1940s (there were less bellhousing fastener holes on the early engines). Did CAT standardize anything SAE (driveline related) on the No. 12 grader? Note: I'm assuming that the above question will not be answered within the service manuals I've ordered (I'm still waiting on them to arrive in the mail). That being said - if the answer is contained within the service manual, I apologize in advance for asking the redundant question.
I don't get why you're asking for this ? "Question - does the CAT 12 grader have a standard SAE bellhousing & bolt-pattern, but with a non-standard-spline transmission input shaft? Or are both the bellhousing pattern & transmission input shaft CAT specific (aka non-SAE standard)? " You're looking at putting a different motor in before you even tried to bar over this one? As Skyking said It is far more simple than you are posting here. 1) bar it over. if it moves go to 2) put the parts back on. get injectors. freshen up the fuel. 3) get pony going. fix wiriing as needed, There is very little wiring so don't sweat that either. Field wire generator wire and that is it for the generator. 4) get it rolling with the pony. add fuel. chunka chunka chunka.[/QUOTE]
The engine is seized - will not bar over. Is anyone honestly surprised by this? It's pretty clear why the injectors are missing. Someone previously pulled them, oiled the cylinders, failed to bar over the engine, then began prepping the engine for removal & overhaul. Probably gave up because D318 overhaul parts are expensive and hard to find. If anyone knows the "approximate" SAE bellhousing engine mount size on the CAT 12, please share? I'm assuming I'll have to fabricate an adapter plate, and possibly a new transmission input-shaft. I'm shopping for a replacement engine now. Looking at Cummins & Detroit as potential options.
If converting to a different engine, you are in for a massive can of worms. Flwheel housing, engine clutch,adapting the trans input shaft and inner power shaft(for the tower drive) clutch brake and also engine max rpm and hp. Then, the oil pan support and shims. I would pull the top end apart first and evaluate as well as the side access covers on the crankcase. In my opinion it will be easier to fix what you have already
If you just have to have an 8T there is one for sale on Portland craig's list for 9,000 bucks that runs. Bad Bob
made me look
Has a scarifier, too,
I believe I have four options (listed in no particular order of preference) (1) Rebuild the seized engine, if rebuildable (2) Find a running D318 engine to swap in (3) Repower with a different diesel engine (4) Give up & sell the whole machine for parts Considering the scarcity (and cost) of overhaul parts for the D318, I'm leaning towards option 3 right now. I'll have a better idea once I pull the engine and see how bad the damage is. An in-frame overhaul is not something I'm interested in doing.
The injector components that are called out for an 8T CAT 12 engine have identical part numbers to those called out for the 5V engine - but are different from the 3V engine. I was looking to purchase a set of D318 injector tools (removal and installation tooling), and everyone seems to be on backorder. It makes me wonder if they're really on back order, or if they're out-of-stock forever. The engine is almost 80 years old. . . .
The only tooling you need to replace nozzles is a 1" deep socket. Bad Bob
If I decide to rebuild the engine (still TBD - depending on whether or not existing castings are freeze-cracked) - I intended to get the head serviced while it's off. This would include my replacing soft-goods on the precombustion chamber retainer, and also the combustion-seal at the bottom of the chamber. The tool group required is Part No. 5F9217
At risk of sounding harsh; In my opinion, your Option #3 is neither economical nor functionally possible. Take it from folks who have been around and worked on these vintage machines for decades... Repowering with a different engine than a D318 is going "down a rabbit hole"!
What is not functionally possible? Are you referring to the inner and outer transmission shafts?
Anything is possible with enough money, time and engineering. The problem is not too many are capable of doing it. It can become an (expensive) exercise in frustration.
My set is over 50 years old. You most likely never need them again the newer motors use different tools. If the machine shop has been around awhile they should have a set as the precups come out to work on the head. Bad Bob
Forgive me for speculating again (my grader service manual hasn't arrived yet - I might have to reorder it) Presumably there's an inner transmission shaft that's direct-coupled to the crankshaft (no clutch, always turning) - which powers the machine accessories. And there's an outer transmission shaft that's clutch-coupled - for driving the wheels. There's a clutch brake - presumably to stop the clutch-disk for shifting gears (no syncros within the transmission?) There's also a mystery bellhousing bolt pattern - presumably CAT unique, and not SAE (no one seems to know). Then there's also the direction of crankshaft rotation, which I assume to be clockwise (looking at the water-pump end of the crank (direction also supported by the left-hand threads on the crankshaft pulley bolt). I would need to find a replacement engine making comparable horsepower and torque, with lots of rotating inertia - perhaps a Cummins NHC-250 would work well? The easiest path forward would be to adapt the stock D318 clutch & flywheel to the cummin's crankshaft. Then either modify the cummins bellhousing, or adapt the CAT bellhousing to the cummins, or simply fabricate a new bellhousing - to join the cummins with the CAT 12 transmission - while maintaining the proper geometry & spacing of the stock components. Seems pretty straight forward. Note: I enjoy a challenge. If I wanted easy, I would've purchased a newer grader that runs well. Currently I desire to rebuild the existing D318. But I must admit - the more I'm told that an engine swap cannot be done, the more I desire to do an engine swap.
Here is a dozer D318 that might be available:
Well, if you go ahead trying to swap in a different engine, you can’t say we didn’t warn you
If I do attempt to repower, one of two things will happen. (1) I'll post pictures & videos of the grader running with a different engine (2) I'll have to eat some humble pie and report that I failed If the cylinders got exposed to water & deep-freeze (was parked in eastern Washington) the block may be freeze-cracked beyond use. I'll know more when I get the engine pulled & disassembled. I am not going to spend 6 to 9 grand to obtain a running D318 engine. Honestly I'm not too happy about spending 4 grand rebuilding the one I have. I would however be quite willing to spend a few weeks of my time, together with some thick steel plate that I already have - to machine the required adapters for swapping in a used truck engine.
Im sure you can find a running D318 for a lot less then 6k.I bought a good runner a few years ago for 800.00$ . Im sure you can make another engine work somehow ,but it just seems sacrilegious to ruin a nice old machine like that with an odd power plant. I saw a D4 for sale a while with a small block V8 in it , piece of scrap in my opinion.
I would happily spend 1500 on a running D318 engine. Unfortunately it's unlikely to happen in my part of the woods. We had a steel bubble several years back, and our three largest wrecking yards cashed in (aka scrapped every car, truck, and bus on their lot). It's quite depressing. They had rows of old Pontiacs, Olds, Caddys - all gone. Now the oldest cars are 80s POS. During this same steel bubble people were scrapping running dozers, graders, loaders, excavators, etc. It was shocking to watch. Granted they were older machines, but they were literally worth more in scrap than as a running machine via private sale. Due to the steel bubble, and other factors - there's not a lot of running D318s left to be had. . . . Don't get me wrong - I'm actively looking. The few I've found come with an entire machine, and cost 6 to 9 grand, or more $$$.
Did you contact that guy on Youtube I posted earlier? No idea if it is still there or for sale but appears to be in your neck of the woods from the background scenery.
His video was posted 5 years ago. He states he plans on using the engine in a sawmill someday. Assuming he still has the engine, I am going to go out on a limb and speculate that I'm not taking possession of his engine for 800, or even 1500 dollars. More specifically, someone that takes the time to post videos of an engine that he's salvaged is probably not interested in selling it (at least not for the prices I'm looking to pay). Again, that's speculation on my part - but probably pretty accurate assumptions. Did I contact him? No. Honestly I'm not sure how to even contact the originator of a youtube video. Each spring about 3 (on average) road graders are scrapped at our local recycler. If I see a CAT 12 show up with a D318 that bars-over, you can bet that I'll be purchasing it. . . .
so you oiled the heck out of it and let it sit a week?
I am trying to acquire the proper CAT tool kit to extract the precombustion chambers so I can borescope the cylinders. I found the extraction bolt for removing the precombustion chamber (purchased it), however I do not have the rest of the tool kit - for removing & installing the precombustion chamber retainer. I might be able to screw the whole assembly out at once with the extraction bolt I purchased, but that's not the procedure called out in the service manual. The retainer is supposed to be pulled separately. If I try to pull both at once, I might strip or shear the bolt. Even if I successfully extracted the chamber & retainer, I'd need the complete tool kit for proper reinstallation. I must admit, it's discouraging that CAT service tooling is hard to find. I suppose I could take measurements & fabricate my own tooling, but I'd much rather purchase the proper tool set. The extraction bolt I purchased appears heat-treated - presumably a chrome-moly alloy. I still desire to see inside the cylinders - before I wrench on the crankshaft with maximum effort. It's currently not turning with a few hundred foot-pounds. The large nut on the end of the crankshaft is accessible with a wrench, however to place a large socket on the nut (for applying significant torque) requires me to pull the radiator assembly - to get clearance for the socket. I'm waiting on nicer weather. It's been snowing all weekend.
So you did oil it?
Not oiled yet. I still want to see the current as-is status inside the cylinders. My borescope cannot get past the precombustion chambers to inspect the cylinder walls. This is why I'm trying to purchase the precombustion chamber tool kit. Once the cylinders are filled with oil, pictures probably won't show much (I don't think the camera will image well under oil). I did try to turn the motor nonetheless. I only wrenched on the crankshaft hard enough to turnover an unstuck engine - verifying that it's in fact stuck. But stuck how badly is still TBD. My current plan: (1) Pull the precombustion chambers and borescope the cylinder walls & assess the damage. Specifically, I'm hoping to see whether or not the water damage is severe, or mild. (2) if mild, pull the radiator so I can get a large socket onto the crankshaft nut (3) soak cylinders in mix of trans fluid and diesel (4) attempt to bar over engine with appreciable torque input On that note - the guy who delivered the machine recommended that I place the grader into high gear and push it with my excavator - aka try to use the grader wheels to turn the engine through the transmission. I'm not sure whether or not this is a good idea. I'm assuming the wheels would slip before I break something. Again, this is why I want to borescope first. Once I took apart a Detroit 671 that sat with water in the cylinders. It took a hydraulic press to dislodge the pistons from the cylinders. I probably would've broken the crankshaft before those pistons moved - or possibly sheared the main caps - if it's even possible to apply that much torque. In a way, it's a blessing to have removable sleeves. If the water froze however, all bets are off. I'm not even attempting to rebuild a freeze cracked engine. If the cylinders contain heavy visible corrosion, I'm not even going to bother trying to soak the cylinders and break it loose. I'll pull the engine and disassemble it for inspection.
He stated in the comments 1 year ago that he did not use it for the sawmill project and used a Perkins instead. That is why I think he might still have it. All he could do is tell you know. There is probably some way to send him email or just post a comment to start.
Maybe I need to create a youtube account - and I'll be able to message him? I'll look into it. . .
IME, 50%ATF/50% Acetone works well at getting stuck piston freed from rusted cylinders.
Then you can post videos of your progress. I'll subscribe.
The best way to apply torque to turn a Cat engine is to put the pony in gear and turn the pony flywheel. The problem is the lock needs to be removed to put a socket on the pony flywheel. To reverse direction the nut might back off. If it moves at all maybe gentle back and forth movement could work, that nut is usually very tight and hard to break free. All you really need to remove pre cup is the spline tool. I don't know if that is what you have or not. That will require a lot of force, cheater bar.
If you have a gmail account, that is your youtube account also I think.
Did you say the intake or exhaust manifold had been removed? take one of those off and see if you can get the borescope by the valve. Even the exhaust manifold will show how rusty the cylinders are likely to be. Then you can determine which cylinders are in the middle of the stroke, and apply hydraulic pressure to that pair, with a tractor hydraulic remote or other source.
The problem with my borescope is that I cannot manipulate it. It will hold a general shape when I bend it, then I can only push/pull it. It will not change directions (bend) while being pushed - at least not in a predictable fashion. The probe will snake up (buckle) when being pushed around a tight turn. It works great for inspecting straight sections (pipe, duct, etc). I had trouble feeding it through a 90 degree turn in the exhaust manifold. If I remove the precombustion chamber, it's a straight shot directly into the cylinders. And for removing the precombustion chambers - the service manual says they're torqued to 200 ft-lbs upon installation. I'm assuming these have never been removed - but who knows? Should I use a breaker-bar, and apply steady torque? Or should I try a small impact gun? My gut tells me to not hit them with an impact. But occasionally an impact is the preferred tool. Any recommendations? I need to make sure my extraction bolt has enough engagement with the splines (when removing the retainer & chamber together - they're supposed to be removed separately. When removing both together, the extraction bolt sits higher above the chamber).
Another option is to keep searching for the proper tool kit, and follow the service manual's directions for proper dissassembly. . . . .
https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/708257260844475/?ref=saved&referral_code=null&__tn__=!:D Cross border shopping might be challenging ,here heres some cheap guts n feathers that was on Face book. I guess your best aproach is to see what you need first. Scrap is higher right now ,probably yank the remains of the engine out and scrap the rest and cover some costs.
A few years ago I drove up into Canada to shop for Case 310 parts. I had my 1-ton flat-bed truck and my 10k flat-bed equipment trailer. The Canadian border guard asked me if I had ever been fingerprinted. Strange question - right? So I told him yes, and he asked me when. I told him when I joined the US Military I was fingerprinted. He asked and when else? He was obviously fishing for a specific answer - that he already knew the answer to - but I was really puzzled. He was being blunt, condescending, and almost combative. Did he think I was a criminal? So I'm thinking to myself - I was fingerprinted by the police when I was in middle-school (all the school kids were), and I was also fingerprinted when I got my CCL (concealed weapons license) in Washington State, and that's it - three times in my entire life. So I told him, I got fingerprinted when I got my CCL. He immediately responded by saying, and do you have your concealed weapon on you now? I smiled and said that I knew I was coming to Canada today, so I went out of my way to intentionally leave my handgun & ammunition at home. He gave me the serious snake eye. I was sure he was going to pull me aside and search my vehicle, but he didn't - he let me go about my business. The Case 310 parts ended up being a bust, however the drive into Canada was very nice. North of the border is a giant valley going east-west. It's full of farms, neighborhoods, stores - mainly farmlands. The roads were in pretty good shape - considering how punishing the winters can be up there. What bothers me most about that whole situation was that a foreign government knew that I was issued a Washington State CCL. Why does a foreign government have any business knowing that information? Seriously? I'd make the drive up into Canada to get a D318 engine - if it's already pulled (because I can haul it myself). Unfortunately I do not have a truck & trailer large enough to pull a whole dozer (or a grader - I had to pay a guy to haul the grader home for me). If this dozer were more local, I'd be all over it. . . .
Yes i know how you feel . I crossed once to go to Seattle and pickup some undercarraige parts for a Terex dozer. It was a rush trip went down in the evening thru Blaine. The Border guard called me in and asked what the purpose of my trip was ,so i told him. He says that will be 10.00$ business crossing fee.?? I siad i only have a visa card and some Canadian cash. He held my wallet and id and sent me into Blaine to change some Canadian cash into US so i could give him a ten. Gave it to him and all was well . Sure felt like something weird was up. Been down lots of other times and never an issue.
https://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/user-fee-table Absolutely sounds fishy. Did he give you a receipt? I've never heard of a business crossing fee. That fee doesn't seem to be contained within the above link. Seems like everyone is being shaken down these days.
This was 1986 ,something told me just give him cash n carry on. If it had been Canadian customs i would have questioned them
I placed a want-ad for a running D318 engine - hoping I might get lucky. I actually got a response. It became clear after two e-mails that the guy was a scammer - just trying to take my money.
Still looking for a replacement D318. A guy in eastern Washington had a pair for sale (package deal - not a bad price). I messaged him. Five days later he messaged me back - but because I didn't respond within 45 minutes he sold the engines to someone else. Very strange. I suppose he thought I had one of those internet phones - with my face constantly glued to it. . . . If I cannot procure a D318 this fall/winter, I will likely attempt a repower this spring. Thinking 350 cummins, or a big cam, or similar. I've got a friend with an EDM - the rest I should be able to do myself on the lathe/mill.
You're heading the wrong way, and going into a world of major additional cost and major headaches. Despite your great fabrication skills that you've displayed with photos of items you've constructed and installed, changing to a different brand of engine in a Cat is going to cause you endless headscratching and multiple modifications, and more costs. Several highly experienced contributors on previous pages have advised you against a repower with a different brand of engine. I can only concur with their experienced opinions - do not do it. For starters, Cat do not take notice of any SAE standards, rules, or instructions. Cat are a law unto themselves - they are big enough to set their own engineering laws, and have been, since before WW2. I've been down this road before, it's a world of pain and frustration. If SAE state a certain diameter shaft must have 14 splines, the Cat shaft will have 13 splines. Cat don't use SAE housings in their older construction machines, they only produce SAE housings when they build truck engines. The D318 you have is entirely suitable for rebuild at a reasonable cost. Bite the bullet, pull the cylinder head off, and look directly into the bore and piston condition. Mildly damaged bores will clean up just fine with a hone, and these old Cat engines are not high-tech European engines demanding precise tolerances, and needing a constant supply of new parts to make them function properly.
I would agree that if the present engine can be repaired it's the only way to go. Don't condemn the engine until you've had it apart. It might not be as bad as you think. There may be other machines that a repower would be much easier but an older Cat grader would turn into a nightmare.
Please explain why repowering a CAT 12 would be a nightmare? The biggest obstacle appears to be the dual transmission input shafts. The inner shaft is direct coupled (splined) to the flywheel/crankshaft - which provides continuous power to drive the accessories. The outer shaft is clutch-coupled - to drive the wheels. I see three basic options. 1. adapt the D318 clutch/flywheel to the repower engine. 2. modify the repower clutch/flywheel to mate with the CAT 12 transmission input shafts. 3. modify/replace the CAT 12 transmission input shafts. I have no idea if the D318 bellhousing is a standard SAE, or some odd-ball CAT pattern. I have no idea if the shaft-diameter and shaft spline-count are standardized, or some odd-ball CAT size. I have no idea if the D318 flywheel/clutch are neutrally balanced, or not. I've previously asked, but no one seems to know? I suppose I'll find out when I pull the engine. I have a lathe large enough to modify the OEM flywheel, and also fabricate a bellhousing adapter (from weldment). I can also make a PTO/puck adapter for the inner shaft. The hardest part would be cutting female splines (would require an EDM). My current engine is missing all of its fuel injectors. The engine filled with rainwater and is seized. It may or may not be freeze-cracked. The engine may or may not even be rebuildable. I priced out a rebuild kit (pistons/cylinders, bearings, gaskets, valves, guides, etc) - and the D318 isn't exactly cheap to overhaul. I haven't bothered to price out replacement injectors. My best option is to find a runner (aka non-seized) D318 and install that.
Right now my cheapest option to obtain a D318 engine is a $3,000 dollar CAT 12 grader in Oregon (a runner). It would cost me around 4 grand to have it trucked up to my place. At that point it's probably best just to keep the running grader and use mine for parts.
You're presuming that your D318 is full of unusable components without even dismantling them and examining them? That, to me, would be the primary step in examining the options available to you. Provided the block checks out as not cracked, I don't see where acquiring a good quality engine rebuild kit and injectors is any major problem, you just need to find the right supplier. As regards a Cummins conversion, you are going to run into major engineering work, reworking the flywheel/clutch conversion, fabricating new engine mounts, fabricating cooling system connections, arranging fan/radiator alignment (which could involve shifting the radiator and its mountings), modifying intake and exhaust arrangements - and setting the RPM and HP to match the original RPM and HP settings. There will no doubt be other changes that will consume a lot of time and money. We have an old saying here, that goes, "when you start on a project with unknowns, go to the next highest unit and double the number". So, this means that something that looks like it will take 10 minutes, ends up taking 20 hrs. Something that looks like 2 weeks work, ends up taking 4 months to complete. Such are the joys of "projects", if you count your time for no value - well, maybe you can justify it, but most people place a value on their time - and constantly purchasing the required materials and odds and ends to finalise a project, can often run into a lot more dollars than originally envisioned.
There is no D318 rebuild kit (that I've been able to find anyway). You need to piece it together. Piston/cylinder kits are 250 bucks per hole (1500 for six). A set of main & rod bearings are about 500 bucks. A gaset set is about 600 bucks. And for the head - new valves? New guides? New seats? Or a simple valve job? Who knows? To rebuild a D318 one can expect to pay about 3 grand in parts (D318 parts are not cheap). Plus I'm looking at an extra 1200 to purchase six new injectors. Not sure what it costs to turn a D318 crank, but I'm assuming it costs more than turning an automotive crank. I suppose I could try to dislodge the sized pistons and hone the cylinders - maybe replace the rings - slap it back together with a 600 dollar gasket set. But I'd still need 1200 dollars worth of injectors. Said another way, the most hillbilly get-it-running method will still set me back 2 grand. To rebuild it right, maybe 6 grand? It is much more cost-effective to find a running D318 engine and drop it in. Or repower with a different engine. Here's the what's puzzling me - the previous owner left the coffee can off the exhaust, and the engine filled with rainwater and seized - which doesn't say much for the previous owner. Dude could've installed a 30 dollar flapper on the exhaust pipe, but that would've cost him 30 dollars - so he went with the coffee can from under his sink. But I digress. After the engine seized, the grader was donated to a college in eastern Washington. The school's diesel department started the process of pulling the engine, and then they gave up and sold the grader at auction. So why did they give up?
Past observation here tells me that eventually all the expert opinions that you're getting for free will give up on you when you continue to ignore what they're telling you. Particularly when they ask over and over have you tried to bar it over. And insist on ignoring the "Don't do it" re the engine swap to an unknown. If you could buy a kit like a Jag to Chevy conversion it might make sense, but you've got a half dozen guys with years and years of experience telling you don't go there and you aren't listening. Just my 2¢ Joe H
Engine does not bar over (well over 500 ft-lbf - doesn't budge at all). Soaking the cylinders, breaking it loose, and starting her up sounds like pretty good free advice - but it's simply not working. And should the engine magically unseize itself, I still require a full set of injectors, and several accessory gaskets (at a minimum) before it will run. Several components - coolant connections, exhaust connections, misc attachments for the pony motor - are installed finger tight. I have been actively searching for a replacement D318 engine for over 6 months. I've posted want-ads, went to wrecking yards. I also search the internet for D318 engines every day at work on my lunch break. The closest I got was a few weeks ago, and that deal fell through. The vast majority of running D318 engines are installed within running CAT 12 graders and D8 dozers. If I buy a running grader, it sorta defeats the purpose of getting this one running (at that point just keep the running grader). Looking at the asking prices for dozers, it would also be cost-prohibitive to purchase a running D8 dozer, only to pull the engine for a grader project. I did find an old 1950s vintage boat with a running D318 (engine in excellent condition), but it's 5 grand for the boat - plus I'd have to pay to dispose of the boat $$$ So basically what I should take away from these threads (because I am listening), is that I should pull & disassemble my engine for rebuild (if rebuildable). And if my engine is bad, or I am unable to find required replacement parts - I should scrap the grader. . . Right?
You can buy a boat for $5K with an excellent D318 but you think you can do a repower for less? I think that would be your best option if you don't want to see what all your existing engine needs. It would be easier to repower a boat than a grader. If the boat is in any kind of decent shape you should get some of your money back. You could put the boat in an auction to get rid of it if need be.
The OP is going to disappear. Then, in approximately six years, create a come back thread with his Detroit 453 turbo powered Model 12.
The boat has no trailer. It's not feasible to repower a boat in the marina (if it's even permitted). Besides, I'm not interested in trying to repower & flip a 5000-dollar boat. Even with a cherry engine swap - it's still just a 5000 dollar boat. I could pay to have the boat hauled to my house & put up on blocks ($$$) then I'd pull the engine. Then I'd have to cut up and dispose of about 12,000 pounds of old wooden boat (64 dollars per ton disposal fee, plus time & fuel). Considering everything required to obtain the marine engine, I'd be ahead simply paying 6 to 8 grand for a running CAT 12 grader, then use my current grader for parts. And yes, I absolutely can repower for less than 5 grand. I'm not sure where the astronomical cost comes from in doing a motor swap? I have a lathe, a mill, welding gear, lots of steel, and access to an EDM. I would be making the required adapters/mounts - not paying someone else.
People give up on repairs and restorations because they lack persistence - as well as knowledge. Calvin Coolidge said, and I quote; “Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts." Persistence is required to continue on with what initially appears to be intractable problems. People are all-too-ready to throw problems into the "too-hard" basket. But those intractable problems go away with dismantling, examination and careful measurement of components, selecting what can be re-used (keeping in mind the level of end use), persistence in chasing up parts, and parts sources, and acquiring useful advice - and the last you have already acquired. However, I feel you have already made your mind up that you're going to scrap the D318 and install a Cummins because you like fabrication and machining, and you have all these great workshop machines that you love to produce things on. IMO, estimating $5K for a Cummins repower is not taking a lot of things into account in the total bill. I have seen Cats repowered with Cummins, and I can assure you it cost a whole lot more than $5K to carry out each changeover. I saw one local contractor repower 22 Cat scrapers with brand new Cummins 855 engines, and I can tell you it wasn't a cheap exercise, and that was over 40 years ago. They did it in-house, because they had some people on their payroll with great skills. Then your repower plan throws up another angle, in whether the used Cummins you purchase is in excellent running order, and has no hidden "issues". Cummins are notorious for liner pinholes caused by liner cavitation, abetted by poor quality coolant, or by using highly mineralised plain water. You can have a beautiful, healthy-sounding Cummins one day, and a crankcase full of coolant the next, with no warning - resulting in an engine tear-down, anyway. I've owned a lot Cat engines, a lot of Cummins engines, and a lot of Komatsu-Cummins engines, probably well over 100 engines of just these makes alone. I had to be anal about Cummins (and Komatsu-Cummins) coolant condition, because of their propensity to hole liners - this is not a problem with the D318.
That #12 was only designed to handle about 100 to 120 hp and low rpm, so if you are hell bent on repowering it, keep that in mind when you grenade something between the engine and the wheels but you seem to be ignoring the advice so far
If you post a comment on this video I think the guy will get an email if he still has a UTube account.
Some things to keep in mind when shopping for D318 engines. Early engine arrangements are quite different than the later units. At S/N 8T16.361 Cat went to an oil clutch, oil supplied by a section of the main engine oil pump which makes the blocks and crankshafts and oil pans noninterchangeable with earlier models. Also at s/n 8T15,869 Cat introduced direct electric start option which requires the later heads with larger diameter combustion chambers to accommodate glow plugs. Also be aware the tractor and industrial engines use different oil pans and oil pumps than what's on the graders. That D318 engine is one of the best engines Cat ever built, well worth the effort to rebuild.
56wrench, do you have any recommendations for repower? A sales brochure for the CAT 12 said the engine makes 120 horsepower (no RPM given) and was speed-governed at 1800 rpm. Doing the math, that's about 350 ft-lbs torque at 1800 rpm (assuming peak HP is at the 1800 rpm governer setpoint). I read elsewhere that the D318 has a typical torque peak around 1200 rpm (no torque value given). If I were to guess, my engine probably makes around 450 to 475 ft-lbf torque at 1200 rpm (reasonalbe estimate). Unfortunately I have never had the luxury of seeing a CAT 12 in operation, thus I have no feel for what the typical operating RPM setpoint should be. My gut tells me there's no need to turn at 1800 RPM, and that somewhere around 1200 RPM would be desirable. Taking this into consideration, it would seem that the ideal engine swap would need to make about 450 to 475 ft-lbs torque at 1200 rpm and produce not much more than 400 ft-lbs at 1800 rpm. Lots of options, however this would eliminate most 2-stroke Detroit diesels as swap options, as they like to make power more towards the 1800 rpm end (or higher). Operating gears over their design speed will drastically shorten their operating life. As far as overpowering. My understanding that the reason graders have wheels and not tracks is so that when they encounter an immovable object (e.g. large rock or stump), that the tires will slip in lieu of shearing gear teeth and snapping shafts within the driveline. Tire tread is a large variable in traction, but so is the weight of the machine. The D318 is a heavy engine. A modern diesel (of comparable power and torque) will likely weigh 1/2 to 2/3 less than the D318. Is that going to be a problem with traction? Maybe? Maybe not. I suppose I can always bolt some thick pieces of plate-steel onto the machine - to restore operating weight (if needed). I'm interested in hearing your recommendations for a motor swap. Or if you have a lead on where I can score a D318, that information would be quite welcome also!
The old twelves are mechanical drive for blade control. Normal operation is wide open throttle so blade responds quickly. I always opened it up and left it, if I needed to shift or move slowly around something I just used the heel decel pedal. 1200 rpm down from 1800 will sacrifice blade response time. However, it's your machine, you run it how you like.
I've read the D318 engine is well-known for being able to lug heavy loads at low rpm. Maybe they were describing the D8 configuration? Or a marine application? They obviously weren't describing a CAT 12 D318- if pegged-against-the-governor is the normal throttle setpoint.
You apparently don't understand how the Cat governor and fuel rack works. You can set the rpm by the throttle but the governor will further open the rack to the limit of the torque spring to maintain the load. That's when you can get to the "black smoke" as the engine lugs down with the load.
What did I say that led you to believe that I don't understand how a governor works? The CAT 12 is overspeed protected at 1800 rpm. Why? The engine is obviously capable of more. The industrial skid-mounted D318 overspeed is factory set at 2000 rpm. The question at hand is what's the typical throttle position (aka desirable engine rpm) when operating a CAT 12 grader? Sled dog says wide-open throttle, which would peg against the 1800 rpm overspeed setpoint. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I suppose. He says the blade function is too slow with anything other than wide-open throttle. I can't argue against his point, having never driven a CAT 12 grader and all. It does seem odd to me however that a maximum rpm setpoint is the desired normal operation speed - considering the reputation the D318 has for low rpm grunt work.
The full load RPM is at 1800 RPM for the 8T. The last of the D318's was a "hot rod" version used in the #14 78Axxxx Grader with turbo charger. Maximum Full Load is still 1800 RPM at 150 hp. Besides the turbo the only other change is the higher rack setting. No need to over rev the engine in this application even though higher RPM limits for intermittent loads were applied to Industrial and Generator set engines. Any more power is just going to spin the wheels or overload some components.
All Cats are designed to operate at full throttle. But they're heavy industrial engines with a lot of rotating mass and heavy flywheels, so they can keep up RPM (and produce more torque) when the load really comes on. Cat have never ever produced a torque rating specification for any of their construction engines, although they do provide it for their truck and automotive engines. The "full load RPM" is the fuel setting specified by Cat, and the grader operates best, with the fastest response when operating at the full load RPM. However, the engine can lug down to as low as 1200RPM under heavy load, whereby the torque output is now reaching its maximum level, and this enables the grader to power through tough spots, without changing down a gear. The control response does slow down somewhat when you're lugging the engine, but it's still fast enough to provide adequate speed of response. You lift the moldboard a little to ease the load on the engine if it keeps losing RPM - or if the engine still loses RPM, you go down a gear. The ideal operating situation is an engine lugging at say, around 1400-1500RPM and you're getting a small amount of tyre slippage. If you're getting excessive tyre slippage, you need to reduce the load on the moldboard by either angling the moldboard more or by taking a shallower cut. The angle of the moldboard governs whether you carry the material along, or largely shift it sideways. A steeply angled moldboard means more sideways movement of the material, and a shallow angled moldboard carries the material along in your direction of travel. The Cat graders are fitted with rubber tyred wheels simply because these perform better at higher speeds, and tyres are a much lower cost per hour than using tracks. Some early Cat and Russell graders utilised a crawler tractor as the motive power, but the speed advantage of rubber tyred wheels soon became obvious, once good earthmover rubber tyres started to appear, around 1932. Rubber tyres also provide a far better ride, with less fatigue for the operator. If you look on Machinery Trader for dismantled Cat 12 graders, you may find a good used D318 engine - but I believe you should strip your engine first, and examine the components as regards their re-usability. I understand your skills are obviously in the field of fabricating new items, but these old Cats were made to be rebuilt, and they have a big tolerance for wear. It's highly unlikely the crankshaft in your machine is suffering any damage, the repairs needed are not rocket science, and it's entirely likely you can do all the repairs needed, without even removing the engine. https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/dismantled-machines/caterpillar/motor-graders/1048 The Italian aftermarket parts manufacturer, CGR Ghinassi (a subsidiary of the GB Ricambi Group) is a well-known and respected global supplier of good quality aftermarket parts and components. They supply parts and components to a large number of countries. They indicate in their catalog that they supply D318 liner kits. An email to them will likely produce a response as to what is available, and where and how you can acquire their parts. https://www.ghinassi.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/CGR_liner-kits_ALPHA.pdf https://ec.ghinassi.com/orderentry/home.action
Jeez, enough already, pull the engine apart and see what’s wrong before you go down the ‘repower rabbit hole’. You can pull the pistons and liners if needed without pulling the engine. The access covers on the side of the crankcase allow you to remove the rod caps. Did you pull the exhaust manifold like earlier advised to see where water may have gone? Its a half hour job if the nuts aren’t too badly rusted. I’m not going to recommend any engine for repowering. Thats on you
You and I both know there's only one path for rainwater inside the manifold, and that's straight down an open exhaust valve. I'm really not interested in attempting an in-frame overhaul (I'm not 20 anymore). I have a large gantry crane to pull the engine. I also could use my 128 excavator to pull it, however my gut tells me to use a more gentle and controlled method. The tech-manual says to construct some rigging rails from steel channel - to roll the engine back prior to lifting (implying any misalignment on the transmission input-shaft will result in damage). I picked up some C-channel and some track-roller bearings. I still need to make some brackets to connect the block to the track-rollers/rail. I will get this engine pulled and fully inspected. I'm not happy going into this project knowing that I'm missing pieces of my engine. What has me most concerned is that I've been searching for D318 core for 6 months with no luck. Ideally I'd like to get my hands on a non-seized D318 and use the best parts between both engines to make one good one (aka obtain my set of missing injectors, avoid having to purchase 3 grand worth of rebuild parts, and have a spare pony motor, a spare head, spare injector pump, etc - all good things to have). Without a spare engine, my only path forward is guaranteed to be the highest-risk, most expensive & labor-intensive option (which is why repower is still an option). Here's a picture of the crane I'll use to pull the grader engine. I built this crane to move my horizontal milling machine. The crane is point-loaded with 8000 pounds in this picture - should easily pull a D318. One big advantage I see for keeping the D318 is the gas pony motor - for cold weather starting. I live in a neighborhood of 5 acre lots and the county does not snowplow (or grade) our roads - they're considered private easements. The past 2 years in a row we've had 24 plus inches of snow on the ground at a time. Normally 10 or 12 inches will snow people in. The roads are gravel roads (crushed basalt rock - about 4-1/2 miles of roads). Our road association normally pays a guy 6 grand per year to grade our roads, and he does a crappy job (his grader is too small to cut a crown - it's more of a finishing grader - maybe 10 or 12 thousand pounds). The remainder of the road dues are spent on purchasing loads of crushed basalt rock (which is getting ever more expensive to buy). It's against our road association bylaws to pay someone living in the neighborhood for road work (keeps the road association honest). Thus any effort I make on the roads with my CAT 12 will be completely at my own expense. And thus is life. . . . I don't care. I enjoy tinkering on old machines, and I don't like potholes, or being snowed in.
I’m of the opinion to pull and tear down your existing motor and see what it requires then decide on wether to rebuild or do a repower may be able to get by with just a hone and gaskets if doing the repower route maybe change the drive for the blade controls to a hydraulic motor either way will probably turn into more work than anticipated but if you have the time and the equipment and enjoy it go for it it’s your machine after all
That's a very nice gantry crane, and more than capable of holding up a D318 engine. The basic industrial D318 engine weighs 3,100lbs, the Cat 12 engine is going to be closer to 4000lbs. Yes, the engine needs to be slid straight back for a considerable distance to prevent damage to the dual driveshafts to the transmission and power control box - so the engine removal carriage is a simple and safe way to do this. Post the part numbers, descriptions, and quantities required of your missing injector components, and we can try and assist in digging up replacements. New aftermarket precombustion chambers are readily available. Military surplus is often a good area to search, quite often Cat part numbers cross over to NSN numbers, and this increases the sources potential.
Reviewing this thread, did you ever attempt to contact the Youtube sawmill guy with the D318? He said he did not use that engine in the sawmill and went with something modern instead. Probably still in his shed or something, I don't imagine those are fast movers.
I'm not sure how to message the guy on youtube. There is no contact feature. There is no e-mail address listed. I did see he made a comment 1 year ago, stating that he pulled the head because of a sticking valve. Do I simply leave a comment, and hope he reads it?
OzDozer, i will take you up on the offer for assistance in locating replacement parts. I'll take & post pictures of the removal (and disassembly) process. I already purchased D318 injection tools, so that I can properly replace the injector o-rings. My engine has the precombustion chambers and the fuel lines - everything else injector-related is missing. Our local machine shop that cleans engines cannot handle the D318 block. The head maybe. They use shake-n-bake (thermally heat to 600 degrees F for one hour, followed by steel-shot media blast). Old-school hot tanks are basically illegal in Washington State. I'll have to find a shop with larger shake-n-bake cleaning capacity - probably in Tacoma or Seattle. I own a 110-vac MT Yoke assembly - to inspect the castings for cracks, however most shops include MT inspection as part of the cleaning service anyway.
That's pretty much the way you have to do it. There used to be a way to send private messages but it's been gone for a long time now. Then the trick is to figure out how to contact each other without giving it to the whole world.
There are enough old draglines being scrapped, that would be one place I'd seek out. Nice thing is it's harder to overload a dragline engine, plus the dust stays further away. Even a locked up engine would get you most of the parts you need. If cleaning the block is a problem, I'd pressure wash it and call it good, it's not a high revving disposable aluminum contraption.
If nobody has already said, as far as the missing parts you could join ACMOC and see if any of those people have them or know where you can find them. Somebody on there may even be able to fix you up with a used piston and liner if needed
Well, learned something new today (talking with the guy at Olson's Gaskets). I learned that the D318 engine was put into the D6 dozer, and not the D8 dozer. Specifically, the D6 from 1947 to 1958 (8U- an 9U- serial numbers). The D318 was also installed in a DW10 (serial numbers 1V-). I'm pretty sure someone told me that previously - but I spaced. . . .The misunderstanding was due to my seeing a D318 for sale, where the seller stated it was pulled from a D8. I also learned that a top-end gasket set for the D318 currently costs 750 dollars. The oil pan gasket costs 50 dollars, and the rest of the engine gaskets are no longer available (at least through Olson's Gaskets). He said I might still be able to purchase the remaining gaskets from a CAT dealer, but they will not come in a kit. To order a complete set of D318 gaskets from CAT, I must provide them with each individual gasket part number. It will be a pain in the butt to place an order, and it will likely cost me over a grand. I suppose in a pinch I can cut the remaining unavailable gaskets from sheet. The injector O-rings, valve cover, oil pan, and most importantly the head gasket are still available. I was going to order a gasket set today (to get me motivated), and the price has me right back to being completely discouraged. I'm not going to purchase any more D318 parts or tooling until I get this engine pulled apart - to see if it's even rebuildable. I've seen what frozen water does to cast iron, and it isn't pretty. . . .
Seems tear down and inspection was recommended early in the posts. Also you need to get acquainted with the parts sources available through www.machinerytrader.com
Just break it loose and start her up was also recommended early in the posts. To recap - I'm looking at $1800 in piston/cylinders, $1000 for gaskets, and $1200 for injectors - and that's assuming my engine needs absolutely nothings else (no head work, crank work, clutch, bearings, injector-pump, etc). I still would much rather procure & drop-in a running D318 engine. I will check out machinerytrader - to see what's available. Thanks for the tip.
I've been pricing out D318 overhaul parts, to piece together a kit. It would appear that we've entered an era where D318 repair parts have become obsolete. The parts you are able to find are most likely from final-production runs, where the prices will reflect such $$$. For example - a 671 overhaul kit (piston/cylinders, complete bearing set, full gasket set), costs $1300. Whereas one reputable vendor sells individual D318 bearings for over 100 bucks each. It's becoming clear why the college diesel department gave up on fixing this grader. It wasn't for lack of capacity, or lack of skillsets - but most likely just a lack of parts-support. Granted that's pure speculation on my part, but probably pretty accurate nonetheless.
Well, I thought I found my engine. D6 Dozer, seller is unsure of the year. This engine is a runner. I asked for pictures (attached) to be sure. It doesn't look like the D318 that's in my grader. I don't have the required reference to decode the 9K serial number. I'm assuming this is the wrong engine. The intake and exhaust manifold configurations are completely different. Lots of things look completely different. Edit - looking at the old pictures, I think this is a D4600, implying it's a pre 1947 D6 dozer. . . . ?
It's an old engine for sure. DWF
The engine in the D6 is out of an earlier model 9K series Cat grader, which model was built between 1938 and 1945 - and yes, you're correct, it's the earlier D4600 engine, not the D318. The problem you have with an engine swap is ensuring you acquire the correct engine for your grader. I don't see in any previous posts where it has been pinned down as to whether your grader is fitted with an oil master clutch or a dry master clutch. The Cat oil master clutch appeared around 1954, and I don't currently have any information as to the Cat 12 serial number changeover to the oil master clutch. The block is different on the Cat 12 oil master clutch models, because the grader engines used engine oil for the master clutch - unlike the Cat dozers, where the master clutch had its own separate oil supply and oil pump. In 1954, the HP rating of the Cat 12 also went from 100HP to 115HP. I'd also have to research my literature to see if I can find the changeover serial number for that power upgrade, I don't have it at present.
O.K. I did some research and found the oil master clutch was fitted to graders from serial number 8T14782-up, in late 1954. So that means your grader with a serial number of 8T14140 is fitted with the dry master clutch. At the same serial number as the oil master clutch fitment, the engine HP was boosted to an advertised 115HP, from the previous 100HP. Interestingly, Cat were cheating a bit here on the claimed HP (I think there was a HP race on with other manufacturers at that time, especially Allis Chalmers and IH) - and the Rack Setting book gives two HP settings - one with fan, and one without fan. I believe this "HP without fan" was an advertising stunt started by Allis-Chalmers, so Cat appears to have followed them. According to the Rack Setting book, the D318 up to 8T14781 produced 100HP with fan, and 109HP without fan. From 8T14782, the D318 produced 110HP with fan and 119HP without fan. So Cats advertised "115HP" upgrade was a figure between the HP with fan, and the HP without fan! - whereas previously, the advertised HP was with fan!
I bought an old Ford backhoe a few years ago that had the can over the exhaust. One of the first things I did was get a tink-tink flapper, because I knew that I would eventually forget the can.
Even the flappers can let rain in if the wind is blowing the wrong way. Pail is still best
wrong thread.
CAT 12 99E GRADER - heavy equipment - by owner - sale - craigslist CAT 12 99E GRADER, 12' MOLD BOARD (BLADE) WITH NEW CUTTING EDGE, RIPPERS, CAT DIESEL. SERIAL # 99E10476.. $6,995.00 LOCATED IN GRANTS PASS,OR CALL 541 956 971 SEVEN OR 541 916 542 EIGHT CAT GRADER,... medford.craigslist.org
That is only about 10 miles from me, and I'd like to have it, but the little woman thinks that I am limited out on toys.
In hindsight I should've purchased a running CAT 12 grader. I didn't anticipate many of the rebuild parts being discontinued for the D318, and the still-available D318 engine parts being so expensive.
Entropy1, have you got the engine apart to see what the internal damage was actually like? Did you check with IPD as to what engine parts and gaskets they can supply for the D318 engine? This company below also list parts for the D318, although I don't see any gaskets in their list. http://www.drillingsolutionsltd.com/product/cat-engine-parts4 Bulldog Kits list a gasket kit available for the D318. I suspect it's a Chinese gasket set, but it's likely to be good enough for your planned use. CT-9M4752,08T,1,14781,(ES)-Supplement,D318,- - Bulldog | Demand the Brand Quality Aftermarket Replacement Part for Bulldog Gasket Kits - Caterpillar - Engine (Cat Kit Numbers) - Motor Graders www.bulldogkits.com
The short answer to your question is no - I have not pulled the engine yet. Plan A is to find/purchase a running D318 engine Plan B is to adapt/repower with a 471 Detroit For Plan A - I'm still searching for a reasonably priced D318 For Plan B - I just purchased a 24" chuck for my big lathe, so I can turn a custom flywheel - to adapt the CAT 12 clutch to the Detroit 471. I also recently picked up a 471 with SAE-1 bellhousing - which in the correct ballpark-size for adapting to the CAT-12 transmission. It's a runner - basically ready to go. Right now, the only path that seems to be progressing is Plan B, although I am still actively searching for a D318 for Plan A
What's sad is the previous owner forgot to cover the exhaust and destroyed the engine with rainwater.
Why a 4-71 now? It's about as different as can be from the original Cat engine. I'm sure your neighbors would be thrilled... not.
4-71 my ears are ringing just hearing that.
4-71's were in a lot of older graders. If they had a good muffler, they weren't too bad. I ran an AD-4 Allis-Chalmers grader with a 4-71 without much problem years ago. FWD
Entropy1 is in for a whole world of hidden costs and mismatch fitting a Detroit Diesel to a Cat, because the engineering standards that GM and Cat use, are totally different. Cat make their own standards, they don't follow SAE standards. Then there's the little problem of the whole lot different dimensions and weight of the Detroit. The Cat 12 gets its traction from that great heavy chunk of cast iron in the form of the D318 sitting over the drive wheels. The 4-71 is a lightweight in comparison, and grader traction will suffer accordingly.
Wouldn't the torque curves be totally different and cause potential damage to the drive train? Some people have said Detroit 2 strokes are getting harder to find parts for too. It seems like several people would have put some kind of concoction in the cylinders to let soak for a week or so and then tried to bar the engine over but because Entropy1 couldn't fit a boroscope in the cylinders he abandoned this idea. I don't understand what it would hurt to try it??
We/my dad, have an old Allis Chalmers grader with 3-71 GM in it… I think it’s an AD-3 but I’m having a mental blank… and it’s still going well. My Grandfather was its second owner. It’s definitely got a tone all of its own but I have a bit of a soft spot for it. On a more serious note, if this graders original engine turns out to be beyond repair (when or if it gets opened up), would it be possible to swap to a D333c or a 3306 (newer 6cyl)? I know it would loose its matching numbers status but parts might be more readily available and at least it would still have a cat engine. I have absolutely no idea if either would actually fit in there or bolt up ect??
Attached is a random picture of a CAT D315 engine. I believe the bellhousing pattern is the same as what's on my Grader, however I think the flywheel is different (this was a dozer application, with different type clutch). Attached are two pictures of the little 471 I picked up. It's set up for 12 volt, turns in the correct direction, and more importantly, it has the larger SAE-1 bellhousing. It looks rough, but it runs strong. (was originally a water-pump unit - was taken out of service becasue the pump failed). The plan is to build an adapter plate (between 1 and 2 inches thick) from OS Steel, that is SAE-1 on one side, and CAT-12 on the other. The adapter plate will bolt to the 471, then the 471/plate will bolt up against the CAT-12 transmission. I am then going to turn a thicker 471 flywheel that has the correct D318 features on one side (Detroit on the other) to accept the CAT-12 clutch & input shafts. The thicker flywheel will position the flywheel face at the proper standoff distance, permitting it to work with the stock grader clutch components. Also - replacement 471 flywheel ring-gears are still available, which is a plus.. I also picked up some 1" x 12" flat bar, with some 1" x 24" wide pieces. This steel will be used to ballast the grader with the lighter 471 engine - to restore it back to the proper operating weight. The only part of this process that I cannot do myself is balancing the new flywheel - which I will have to farm out to a shop in Tacoma/Fife. Should be a pretty straight forward motor swap.
A cat grader with a Detroit engine will surely be unique, one of a kind. A 112 Cat grader had a D315 engine. I had a 112 3U series. It had plenty of power for grading, but could have used more power for road gear. I think the frame work was similar, if not the same as a 12 of the same vintage. FWD
Sill looking for a running D318. Only available options are to buy a running grader or running dozer. It would seem that the already-pulled & running D318s are either all snatched up or are not for sale. . . . .
I have I think around the same year grader as you. I think I’m going to sell to buy a newer dozer. It’s a good runner. The pony motor still starts the machine. I don’t have a battery in it though. I’ve had it for about a year to build the road to my house. It’s almost done and time to move to the next project.
What is your asking price? Where are you located?
I’m by Dallas. I’m just looking to get what I paid for it minus all the work I put in it. $6500
Price is good for the machine, but I'd probably pay more than your asking price getting it shipped up here. I appreciate the offer nonetheless.
And for the main event. In the yellow corner we have the reigning champ with 62 pages and 1223 posts...D6C with loss of oil pressure. In the yellow and green corner we have Caterpillar 12 engine is dead with 10 pages and 192 posts. Lettts get ready to rummmble.
Sure think the logging and mining community of the PNW would have a huge pile of parts for those old surplus 12 motor graders!!
Found a D315 for sale (pulled) for 500 bucks. It was complete, but it had a hole in the side of the block from a thrown rod. I thought about buying it - to obtain 4 of my 6 missing injectors. But 500 bucks seems a bit steep - for an incomplete set of injectors. I'll keep looking.
Every spring/summer our local recycling yard would get 3 or 4 graders dropped off for scrap. If you ask, they'd sell parts for just over scrap value (provided you pull them). Those numbers have noticeably tapered-off over the past few years. Apparently there's not a lot of old machinery in this area left to scrap. Part of that is due to an unusual steel bubble we had several years ago, where #1 was approaching 500 dollars per ton. That summer people were driving equipment off the trailer - not just recycling broken machines.
We heard about price here in AK, but the boats never came to haul it away.
I sent one to the scrap guy, he says he will rebuild it. 13K -5639 my grandpa bought it new. Sad but finals housings busted up and chewd up the internals real bad. My dad spent @5k on parts 20 years ago AND NEVER USED THEM !! Just needed a good mechanic.
https://seattle.craigslist.org/sno/hvo/d/monroe-diesel-cat-generator-75kw/7711642750.html Heres a lead for you on a 318 for your grader. Im not sure how similar a 318 G is to the 318 in your grader but others in here will know
The genset engines have a different governor to keep speed variations under altering loads to around 3%. The tractor engines are allowed 10% variation in governed speed. The Cat industrial engines in this era had less design changes and internal component changes, compared to the later engines of the 1970's, when engine arrangement numbers started to be used to take into account all the different internal components. That's a pretty reasonably priced genset for its size, if it runs O.K.
I know of a good D318 from a generator outside of Indianapolis. Generator is gone and it's just the engine. I ran the crew that pulled and replaced with a Kohler set under contract. Nothing wrong with it and the guy that purchased it has passed so it sets. Was going into something older and Cat, but I don't know anymore than that. Freight would be a lot these days I'm sure as it's heavy and still in it's open frame enclosure; or was last I knew.
A D318 industrial engine weighs 3,100lbs. If it's still with the generator skid frame, you could add another 300-400lbs to that.
So good news. I picked up a running D318 engine (thank you for the link Tugger2). I paid $1500. This was a backup generator at a dairy farm for many years. It was just taken out-of-service (to make way for new generator). You push the lever to the low-idle/start setting (which is more of a mid-idle), push the starter, and it fires right up. After it warms a bit, push it over to run, and it holds at 1800 rpm. Pull the lever back all the way, and it shuts off. I'm very pleased, however - this is not the direct swap I was hoping for. The D318 bellhousing on this generator engine will clearly not bolt up to my CAT-12 transmission. I'm assuming I'll have to swap the bellhousing & flywheel from my old grader engine onto this one (at a minimum). I'd like to run the pony motor also, but there's a turbocharger in the way. The large boss-mount for the electric starter is not present on my grader's bellhousing. Anyway - here's pictures of the engine.
and more
and two more
There's some epoxy looking stuff in the last picture. I'm assuming there's a crack under it. Looks to be an old repair. Would it be beneficial to swap the governor assembly from my CAT-12 engine onto this engine (so the factory controls work)? Does the turbocharged engine have lower compression, or the same compression? More specifically, would it be feasible to swap the naturally aspirated intake manifold, exhaust manifold, and fuel injection onto this engine?
I'm half tempted to keep this unit as an operational generator, and keep looking for another D318.
It would be a shame to pull apart such a nice old Cat genset to simply repower your grader. I'd keep looking for a grader engine.
I was just looking at the piston/cylinder kit part numbers for D318 engines. There appears to be no difference between the turbo & non-turbo piston/cylinder kits.
There's usually a difference in compression ratio, the turbo engines have a lower compression ratio. This is either done with slightly modified piston crowns or sometimes just a thicker cylinder head gasket.
Assuming I put this engine into my grader - should I attempt to detune it? (install the naturally aspirated fuel injection, governor, intake, and exhaust?) - or should I install it with the turbo? It would be an appreciable increase in torque/power. I don't want to damage the grader's driveline. I don't desire lots of power - just an operational grader (the potholes in our roads are pretty bad). My old engine is 99% complete (only missing its injectors - and the fact that it's seized up). I'm pretty sure I have the dry clutch, but I won't know for sure until I pull it. EDIT: I've been searching the internet/forums regarding turbocharged D318 engines. Lots of discussion about adding a turbo. Haven't found any information whatsoever about deleting the turbo. . . .
There's a D318 listed in the buy and sell forum. Not sure if you saw it or it's already sold.
It would require a considerable amount of work to remove the turbo, the fuel settings need to be re-adjusted and the timing degrees needs to be reset as well. The genset governor won't cause any issues. The 149.5HP power output of the genset D318 will definitely cause drivetrain problems with the grader. I think your grader is 100HP? - the later Cat 12's with the D333 were 115HP with basically the same drivetrain, but 149.5HP is going to tear up the driveline for sure.
That's the one in Nth Carolina? It's a long way to haul it to Washington State.
Entropy1 - Here's a D318 coming up for auction in FL in 12 days time. The auction site says it came from a 12F 59H series grader, but that information is wrong, the 12F was not released until the mid-1960's, and it was fitted with the D333 engine. CAT D318 ENGINE 6 CYL, DIESEL www.jeffmartinauctioneers.com The good news is - I checked the engine block part number shown in the auction photos (1H5652) against the Cat NPR (Numerical Parts Record) and this part number was replaced by 5H7505 engine block part number. Checking the fitment of 5H7505 engine block against the machines or equipment it was fitted to, reveals that this cylinder block was fitted to 12E graders with the serial number range of 8T11252 to 8T21904. So this auction engine is a suitable fit for your grader. If you can acquire it cheaply (I'd be surprised if it brought any more than $300-$400), then it may be economic to ship it from FL.
Shipping a 3000 pound engine from FL to WA is not going to be cheap. The last time I shipped an engine (disassembled & cleaned Pontiac 400, from WA to TX), the shipping company wanted to charge appreciable hazmat fees. It wasn't until I showed them that they couldn't pull a single drop of oil from the cast iron, that they agreed to label the shipment as "machine parts". It was still quite expensive, and that was 15 years ago.
The oil pan on the genset engine is likely not the same as the grader engine due to the mount pads(or lack of) on the bottom
Also engine lube oil pump is different , also radiator & hoses are not the same
Why would I need to swap the lube oil pump? Is the pump pan-specific?
Yes & oil pump in grader’s , as in cat dozers has a scavenge oil pump & pressure pump with 2 pickups
Just for **** chat. I checked the price & availability for a CAT D318 turbocharger rebuild kit (technically a Schwitzer turbo manufactured for CAT). Parts are discontinued. If that turbo were to go bad, I'd have to install & adapt an aftermarket turbo. It seems that a great deal of D318 parts are discontinued.
And that surprises you?
The D318 engine first appeared in 1947 and it was made obsolete in 1959 when the D333 replaced it. The guys who designed the D318 are likely all dead, that's 77 years ago when it was released. If no suitable D318 can be acquired at reasonable cost, the next best option is to try and acquire a D333 out of a later 12E grader, which will be an easier fit-up than any other brand of engine. Plus, the D333 grader engine HP rating is still acceptable, the engine layout is similar to the D318, and the housing will likely bolt up without excessive drama.
I did suggest a D333 or early 3306 a bit of a way back. I didn’t know if they would fit or be an option but at least it would still be all cat if they did. Sounds like a D333 could be an option for the OP then? Should be a few of them floating around OzDozer are the parts for the D318 really that hard to get aftermarket? I know they are getting old but I thought someone would still make them. Makes me worry about my D2 dozer restoration that I haven’t got around to starting!!
JAJ - Yes, it does appear the D318 engine parts are becoming difficult to source - and expensive when you can find them. I believe new pistons and liners are still available from the Chinese, but their quality is still suspect. I understand no U.S. manufacturers are producing new D318 parts any more. The D311 in the D2 has exactly the same problem - you own an antique Cat, and with that, comes the problems of a scarcity of new parts. D2 undercarriage has been obsolete for years, you have to modify D3/931 undercarriage and rollers to fit. D311 new engine parts are virtually non-existent.
Yeah ok sounds like my project will be fun then when I get to it, but like you say that’s the fun of the keeping the old girls alive. I have two D2’s, one is an early one 3J prefix I think. The other is I think a 4U (probably have them incorrect but both narrow track) . I have had them for a few years, the older one is missing a few bits, the newer one runs well and has hydraulics but the steering clutches are both seized. Tried to a few things to free them up but no luck, was going to pull it apart but haven’t got around to it yet. Anyway don’t want to hijack OP’s thread, but when I get around to it I might start a thread and pick your brain about it if you don’t mind?
I take no offense if you ask questions on this thread - it's all relevant information (fixing the CAT diesel). So I picked up this running D318 engine from a genset. Lots of white smoke when starting (I'm assuming it's the 150 HP fuel-rail flooding the engine during startup). However, when I shut the engine down, the turbo seems to spool down unusually quickly. Upon further investigation, the turbo bearings are going bad. It is safe to assume this genset was no longer making rated power (probably why he sold it). But at least it's a complete engine, and it runs. . . . .
The rapidly increasing prices for D318 engine parts is an indicator that the remaining old-stock inventory is being depleted (and also because the economy sucks). Engine bearings being sold individually in lieu of a set is a good example. I'm sure every D318 part I need is sitting on a shelf somewhere, scattered about various states & garages, in boxes collecting dust - the problem is finding them. . . .
Could he borrow the injectors from the new engine to perhaps check condition of his current engine before buying injectors and parts for it
Yes, it surprises me. Schwitzer is still manufacturing turbochargers. A turbocharger rebuild kit is basically two bushings, a thrust plate assembly, and oil seals. These parts are mass-produced at low-cost, and do not take up a lot of shelf space. One would think that a last-production run by Schwitzer for 4-350 series turbo parts-kit would be enough to cover the occasional parts-order extending into the distant future. CAT used to sell a D318 gasket set, but it's been discontinued. But we're told that all the gaskets are still available individually through CAT. Question - if all the gaskets remain individually available, then why discontinue the kit? I'm willing to cut gaskets from sheet material (actually don't mind doing so at all). The head gasket however is a manufactured piece - which currently costs 750 dollars.
My current grader engine is seized up tight (prior owner left the coffee-can off the exhaust, and it filled & sat with rainwater). Ingesting water down the exhaust & sitting is a sure-fire way to take a D318 out-of-service.
Ive seen a few succesful resurections of seized engines done with penetrating oil and patience. Id say you have nothing to loose by pulling the rest of the injectors and flooding the cylinders and the exhaust with the concoction of your choice and patiently trying roll work it back and forth until it will roll over. Not sure if you guys have the Seafoam Deep Creep penetrating oil down there ,but the stuff works miracles quickly. At least you have some injectors and a few parts that will help you . Id say a smoky running engine is better than a seized one .
Yep we do!
It's over 50 years old. To make the parts for the few collectors who need them requires retooling to make a very small production run which increases costs. The parts could sit around for who knows how long. Then customers complain the parts cost too much. It's kind of a no win situation for the manufacturer when they could just make more commonly needed parts.
The 671 Detroit in my HD-14 dozer was made in 1939. A master rebuild kit for that engine is still available today, for about 2 grand (85 year old engine). The possibility also exists that CAT is discontinuing parts-support for old machinery, because they want people to buy new machinery. It would seem that these old machines were built a little too well. . . . .
When we're 6-71's last made and many hundreds of thousands or millions of them were made? Are the rebuild kits OEM or aftermarket? It's all about supply and demand. Try to find parts for a 50 year old JD machine.
So you're saying I made a mistake buying a CAT 12 grader with a seized engine - because there's no parts support?
Since this thread started in Feb. of 2023, and you haven't managed to even pull the head to see what you have, I'm not sure its anyone's fault but you're own that its no closer to running. Yes, buying a grader that hasn't been built in over 50 years, and expecting parts to be on the shelf waiting for you to rebuild it, is somewhat naïve. Actually cat does have some of the parts, you're complaining that you have to individually order gaskets, and upset at the price of a head gasket. There's a supposedly running 12 by me for $8,000. There's another guy with a 14 and a 120 and you can buy the pair for $15,000. There's a surprising amount of nice running graders for $20-$30,000 that are from the 80's and 90's, and much more likely to have parts available. Buying a ancient grader with a seized motor, and then being surprised at part issues, really isn't anyone else's fault. Why do you think they parked it in the weeds to begin with? Instead, here we are a year later, and no closer to having the grader running, than last year. Pull the head, oil the cylinders, pull the motor, find a parts machine, buy a different machine and make this one a parts machine. Repower it. Cut it in 1/2 and weld a JD4020 on to the back end. Do something. Doing nothing means you're never moving material.
Way back in this thread I think you already answered that question. If you expected to get it running for a couple thousand $$ then I'd say yes but I think you already knew that. If the grader had some kind of sentimental value then maybe... but it doesn't. I think you were hoping to be able to say you've got this great old Cat 12 grader all fixed up for very little investment.
Why not install the running D318 engine I picked up on Friday? I purchased this engine for just over what a complete set of D318 gaskets costs.
Because it's not a straight forward drop in and you could end up with two non running machines. Why are you asking Crane Op, you already know what he wouldn't have done. 241 and counting...
Agree completely - the engine must be lowered first, then pushed straight forward.
So why isn't the engine swapped already?
Then put a 6-71 in it, see how far that gets ya. You are dreaming, you are wasting peoples time