A simple fuel filter change turns my day upside down. Tell me somebody, before I take a sledgehammer to everyting from the windshield to the interior of this machine; what I have to do to get this motor fuel again. JCB TLB, Perkins 4 cyl. diesel. Innocently changed the filter element (Napa 3166) and gaskets. While at it, blew the air filter out and sedimenter bowl down below. I now cannot start this engine for love nor money, been working on it 7 hours and I no longer have the patience to go any farther without causing severe damage to something within my reach. Started at the tank, went to fuel pump, through it to filter housing...to injector pump. Cracked all 4 lines at injectors. Inlet (supply) line at injector pump as well. Fed it with a can of silicone and kept it running on it, but still never picked the fuel back up as of now. Pressured up fuel tank with air hose...still can't get fuel to squirt out injector lines. Is pump airbound? I can't see having to want to go through this every time you service something. What's the answer? Electric fuel pump inline??? This is ridiculous. Any input would be welcomed before I turn this thing into # 1 prepared scrap.:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead:Banghead
Check for voltage at the fuel solenoid. Could have blown a fuse in all that.
I have a bomag roller that when I change the upsidedown fuel filter the only way to prime it is to put a electric pump in the line and get it running then remove it and put back to normal. Air pressure on the tank would not even work to get the fuel there. You have more patience than I it would be on fire after 7 hours if it were here. Good luck!
Have you left the line off from the fuel pump to the injector pump to be sure you are getting fuel that far? I'm guessing this has a mechanical pump run off the cam shaft. That is how the last Perkins I was near was built. Some times those mechanical pumps have a bolt in the top that holds on the cover and there is a screen type filter under it. Also often they have a lever on the bottom so you can manually pump it. But helps if the pump is on the low side of cam lobe, bump engine over a part turn and see if it feels like it's doing more work.
Good point; will do. Thanks!
I'm beginning to think that may have to be the solution, especially if I ever plan on changing the filter again! I have an older friend who has a very older Fiat Allis loader that he has an electric pump on for this very same problem...he just sort of cobbled it inline with a toggle switch hanging in mid-air outside the motor...with a red Trucklite hanging there also, that reminds him the switch is on, lol. I'll probably get a little more neater than that and mount all that inside the cab if I do decide to go electric. Believe me, I doubt that I have more patience than you, it's just that I only have owned this machine exactly 7 days today, and would like to at least get a little use out of it before I set it afire. That would be an expensive way to gain satisfaction, lol. I towed it over by the garage now, so when I cool off in a day or two, I'll go back to work on it with a fresh head hopefully. I worked all day today (Sunday,) and accomplished a BIG, FAT NOTHING all stinking day. I hate that.
I did, yes. It does have that little mechanical pump on the right side, opposite the injection pump with the little manual lever. I pumped that thing I'd bet 2000 times, it never seemed to build pressure, but I did check for fuel coming out and it was indeed. I even have fuel through it to the filter housing, out the other side of the housing into the supply line to the Inj. Pump as well. As far as I can figure, I have that pump just airbound. The fuel barely squirts out the lines at the injector side. I may have blown a fuse on the solenoid as previously mentioned too, I need to check that next. Just cannot phathom why it would be such a PITA to simply change a filter. Can't imagine this down in a foundation hole somewhere, with a foot of water under it... I will also check the manual pump screen on top as you mentioned, and also get the cam in the right position to lessen amount of strokes on the lever. I had it running for about 60 seconds once, thought I had it, then it stopped again. Miserable SOB.
Gotta love it. this is why I say we are to dumb to do any thing else. a friend of mine has some halla excavators that his Mexicans are all the time running out of fuel he has to soke a rag in gas and holds it over air intake to get it primed back up good luck
when you changed the filter did you use the fuel pump to fill it or did you fill the filter with fuel before installing it? does it have an electric fuel pump that pumps from the fuel tank to the filter? does the machine only have 1 filter? also are you getting any smoke out of the exhaust? if you are what color is it?
Yair . . . I'm not familiar with this machine but after disturbing filters and what all I have had those little screens in banjo unions cause a it of grief . . . some folks don't even realise they are there. Cheers.
\ I filled the filter (bottom bowl, and tried to soak the new element best I could,) with Power Service actually. I have been doing it that way for 30 years, so unless Power services' formula is no longer combustible under pressure inside a cylinder, it should work one would think. There is no electric pump no...as I stated earlier, I've been pumping the manual lever on the mechanical cam-actuated fuel pump on the intake side of engine, and pumped and pumped and pumped until I was out of breath.Never really felt any pressure build the whole time doing it either, which is puzzling. But I did have fuel coming through it, I checked that. It has 2 filters, or technically the primary is called the "sedimenter" that catches the real junk straight from the tank (and it sure did cuz it was nasty,) then to the secondary or main filter. The sedimenter does not have an element; just a glass bowl with rubber gaskets. The secondary (main) is a normal NAPA filter element (# 3166) sandwiched between the top of the housing and another aluminum bottom section. I replaced all the rubbers supplied in box. No leaks... Maybe the thing to do along with an electric pump, in addition, is to put a spin-on filter housing in place of this piece of junk setup there now? It doesn't smoke, no. That's the whole problem in a nutshell. Smoke would equal noise...continuous noise. I have neither. Thinking a little clearer now that I steam cleaned myself off and had a nice dinner that my wife thought I should have and walked away before I overheated, I emptied a fair amount of water out of the main element when I removed it. Maybe the pump has some left in it still...? The fuel cap is broken thanks to the previous owner not using his head. It's in 2 pieces, the top comes off and the lock stays in the neck, allowing water in when it rains heavy. I fixed that after noticing it, but I think I had a good charge of water in that system until today. I'm confident I drained a lot (if not all) of it out after all this nonsense. I got lied to really bad by this joker. He said he just serviced it less than 250 hours ago. Yeah, and pigs can fly. The filter was plugged with sludge, the air filter was so bad I wonder how it even ran till I blew it out. I'd better go right through this thing before winter to ensure there's no water anywhere in the other systems too.
Forgive me Scrub Puller, but I'm not catching your drift; a "banjo union"? What is that? I'm guessing it's a through bolt fitting, the one's with the copper washers that join a line to a flat surface? :beatsme
Are your filters before the mechanical pump? Maybe an air leak at the glass bowl gasket.
That filter head is tricky.. DID YOU put the gasket on the filter OR UP IN the filter head? IF you put the rubber gasket ON THE FILTER.. that's the problem.. It looks like it goes there..AND IT FITS but it actually goes UP INTO the filter head.. Good luck..
that's right if you look in the end of the bolt you will see a screen screwed into bolt and it will probley be stopped up. but if you have that in line (silver filter) it may not have one on it just check all your banjo fittings to be sure p.s. don't lose the copper washers in the belly pan been there done that
the hand primer should get hard and build up some pressure, ive had the diaphragm inside some of those go bad especially john deeres, id make sure your pumping fuel through the whole system then crack just slightly all of the injectors or nozzles. then tighten them all and bleed off the furthest one and tighten it, then the next furthest and so on until you have the whole system bled or it starts. it sounds like you have air locked in the system somewhere.
I am pretty sure this is the problem. Did the exact same thing on a generator, myself.After lots of frustration, called an oldtimer and he knew exactly what was wrong.
thepumpguysc....I will say YOU sir, have hit the nail on the head here! I did exactly what you just said...I was getting frustrated and a bit lazy, so instead of putting the gasket up into the groove of the housing (which must take 4 men and a monkey to hold it in the groove, the monkey to roll it in properly,) and that's just what I did, I will openly admit. Wow! That's pretty sharp of you I will say. This is the reason that this site is barr none, the absolute finest in it's category for solving problems such as this. Men with an incredible depth of knowledge that share it in detail. I thank you pumpguy...that again, was some sharp thinking! :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy ops And not do discredit anyone else here by any means...I had others racking their brains as well, a couple trying to talk me into burning the machine, and some trying to tell me I had more patience than them, Ba hahahahahaha....:drinkup
I think we just found the problem...thepumpguysc came up with the solution to the tragedy that I created. I put the upper filter housing gasket on top of the element instead of in the housing groove, because it was giving me a hard time and there was some "testicular pressure" being built up as I was getting more and more aggravated. Thanks for the suggestion!:drinkup If anyone wants to know how to waste 7 hours of a perfectly good Sunday, get diesel fuel running down their arms and elbows, in their hair, soak their shoes too...just PM me and I'll tell you in detail. It's the LEAST I can do to repay everybody who basically watched me be a fool today!
Please let us know when you get it running and who gets the prize for the best suggestion!
:woohoo :thumbsup get'er done
thepumpguysc beat me to it, but I figured I'd post a pic so others can see what you've been fighting with. I personally am not fond of LUCAS/CAV filter units as they can be tricky to work with. But as he stated, that top seal ring has to go in the groove in the filter housing head. I typically give the seal ring a coating of engine assembly grease, helps to hold it in place and also helps when seating the filter unit. I also grease the bottom seal ring that sits in the lower bowl, again, helps in seating on filter unit. Don't forget to replace the o-ring on the bolt that pulls this assembly together on the topside. Once you get everything in place and the tensioning bolt in place, tighten the bolt slowly while slightly rotating the lower sediment bowl and the filter unit, this helps center everything up as you tighten the bolt. Once everything is fitted, there should be a bleeder screw on top of the filter housing to crack open and fill filter with hand pump on fuel lift pump. Other variations have a glass sediment bowl on the bottom.
Agreed, except the pump will have hard resistance only when it is pumping (and you won't feel the lever spring back because the diaphragm is using the force to pump the fuel). Also if the resistance is only part of the stroke, the pressure is building, or the fuel is flowing but partly blocked. When it is pumped up and holding pressure, the diaphragm is held away from the lever and the lever is relatively easy to move (back and forth with the same spring force). If the lever moves up/in with medium force AND you feel the same force pushing it on the back stroke then it's sucking air/pulling a vacuum, (the more force the stronger the vacuum). That's the quickest way to figure out where your fuel line is blocked if you have a lever priming pump. I don't see how that gasket would cause a problem, isn't the filter on the pressure side of the transfer pump? Lowboy didn't mention fuel leaking.
I won't be able to touch it again for a few days...got a mission for the next 3 days that will prevent me from playing with it. After 12 hours away from it and time to let my own pressures drop, it makes the most sense what thepumpguy and willie59 are saying (thanks for the pic too willie.) The machine at least RAN before I disturbed the filter, and I do openly admit I put the gasket in the wrong place due to frustration and taking the easy way out. Your pic shows the "secondary" as I would call it willie, the "primary" or sedimenter down below, directly off tank is the glass bowl design, with an aluminum concaved cone in it that separates the sediment out. I didn't change the gaskets in that one (didn't have another set,) just emptied it, sterilized it and replaced it. Therefore, the no-pressure build-up from pumping the transfer pump manually makes perfect sense. There were no leaks, but is definitely sucking air at the filter housing. willie59, what would you replace these nasty CAV filters with, a spin on, or what? I sure don't need this aggravation every time I go to change a filter, especially if it's in -10*F or something here. I will be glad to report good news in a few days once I get it straightened out. Again, many thanks to everybody who took the time to help out a guy who was at wits end. There's a BIG difference between a guy with common sense that can "FIX" things, and an experienced mechanic that does it on a daily basis that has to solve problems as well as diagnosis and repair things. I do quite a bit with what I have to work with, by myself...but still need to tap into the knowledge bank of true crackerjacks now and again to keep things going right. Get ready men, for the next phase of operations....the backhoe boom removal/swing gear diagnosis and repairs...! :woohoo (Something tells me all your computers will be off-line that day, bahahahahaha....):notworthy Thankfully, we won't get involved in that until the spring of 2014, I don't have the time to play with that with winter coming any day here.
Here's another recent mission I video'd of me after changing the filters on my 8V71.. Just a quick little video of my last filter changing episode on my 8V71 Detroit. Same thing; changed filters (all canister type, what a nightmare,) and it wouldn't run for love nor money. Bled injector lines, did everything. The end result was, I shut the fuel line off down at the tank that I mistook for the crossover line, which ended up being the supply. Once I opened that up, you want to see how nice that engine ran then! I shouldn't be telling of all my screwups, but at least I'm honest and willing to show it. I spent a couple hours on this deal too. I had shop air going to the vent with a regulator, I bled lines, I did everything on earth to get this thing to run. I walked away and thought about things calmly and realized I shut the main fuel supply valve off instead of the crossover. The result was, it was backfeeding through the return lines as long as I was pushing fuel with air pressure letting the engine run at a little past idle, then would cut out. Without air pressure, it wouldn't even fire. That was a brain-bender, but at least I did manage to figure that one out on my own without getting wild like this backhoe made me yesterday. I'm getting too old to get that worked up, LOL. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=clq6YJMXXRo
Yair . . . Lowboy . A bit unfortunate with the Jimmy I'd think. They were normally not a problem as they bypass a lot of fuel for cooling . . . in other words a big volume going through can get rid of the air. Cheers.
Lowboy, I was once told that when you have made all the mistakes possible then you are qualified to teach a class on how to do things. This, by the way, was a guy teaching a class on Detroit Diesels reply when asked how he became an instructor.
Let me ask a dumb question. Did you put the sqiare oring up in the filter base? Or did you put it in the filter, I'v seen people put it in the filter and the engine will not run.
Yeah, I helped a fellow out with a few things on here, and he asked how I knew, I had to admit how much of it I'd learned from screwing the pooch over the years.
Well I've been trying to be a mechanic for a little over 40 years only have two more years or so left if it don't work out I'll have to find a new job!
Yeah, sounds like you've tried it out long enough, you'll have to settle on a career choice soon. I've only done 28 if you don't count learning on my father's equipment as a teenager, so I've still got plenty of time to make up my mind.
Any spin on base that you can mount would be more friendly to work with, but the ones I prefer are the Stanadyne FM100. Elements have the water drain valve, or you can get the clear drain bowl with drain valve (shown below), also available with hand primer pump or electric primer pump on filter head. > http://www.stanadyne.com/view.php?id=26 We have wives to take care of that for us Mitch.
I usually just get a filter off an engine or machine that's just laying around, but make sure you note what it is so you can get replacements. Actually the 3166 type isn't that bad once you get used to it. Willie, I showed my wife your comment and she said: "You answer him back right now and tell him I don't tell you what to do!" It took her a minute to get why I was laughing.
Well of course she don't mitch [yeah...right]
CANT WAIT TILL I FOUND OUT IF "I WON".. Tell him what he's won JOHNNY,... A NEEEEEEEW CAAAAARRR.. Remember that one fellas??? I knew you would.. LOL
Do you know why adults are always asking kids what they want to be when they grow-up? It's because we are trying to find something better to do!
I'll try and reply to 'em all here in one so I don't take up too much valuable space and time (of yours, I obviously have plenty, lol) Scrub Puller: The only reason that ran at ALL that time was because I had shop air plumbed directly to the vent on the top of tank, as Detroits need positive pressure to run anyways...but it was backfeeding through the return lines. Once I cut air feed, the motor would quit. One of those deals...once I thought about what I did the day before (shutting supply instead of crossover line to other tank,) it was all rainbows and unicorns from then on. kshansen: I agree on that phylosophy 100%. I see it all the time. Take the trucking industry for example. They take driving school graduates on, the graduate works 6 months for the company and in that time span has smashed a few bumpers, cut a few tires, maybe even topped a trailer or two on a low bridge...and he becomes an instructor. But some of us learn by our mistakes (I for one do,) and some never make any in their opinion. I work for one of those. Born into the business,this whackjob doesn't belong in it any more than a turkey belongs in a duck pond. My buddy had light troubles with a $300K trailer recently (specialized LNG/liquefied natural gas...)this hack of a manager/boss came out himself and opened up the light plug nose box, exposing the circuit breakers, and hacked the wires all off the breakers and butt connected them all together, said "we don't need them"...This is the one calling all the shots in this company I am currently with, hopefuly not much longer as things progress for me. Typical deal though, the more of a screwball you are, the better some outfits love you. grandkobelco: We've already determined (through thepumpguysc) that's what I did...I got aggravated when the O ring wasn't cooperating with staying up in the housing, so I dumbed down and put it on top of the filter element, and caused 7 hours of grief, strife, anger and violence, ruining a perfectly good Sunday. You can rest assured, even bet your house on it...that I won't EVER do that again.:cool2 I'll already choose thepumpguy as the contest winner...he was the first to reveal my FUBAR'd mistake. Guess what you win pumpguy ....HEY, Its a FREE OVEN MITT! LOL. (remember Steve Martin in "The Jerk" when he was Navin, working at the gas station trying to stall the carload of thugs? hahahaha....oven mitt.:lmao Thanks willie59, I'm going to change them over sooner than later. I actually have two spin on housings I just removed off a blown 3406B Cat engine here, with Cat filters. Maybe I will just plumb them in, the primary has a water drain already. (You guys are probably all thinking now, "maybe LowBoy ought to have someone else do it for him..." to prevent another SNAFU like last Sunday.) :duh
"and thats all i need"... :d
I was thinking the same thing...had a customer change fuel filters on a little Fiat blade and had the same problem! I just happened to stop in to drum up some work and got that one it was a head scratcher for a little while, but all it was, was the placement of the gaskets!
I don't think that's it. If the gasket isn't properly seated, it will leak like a sieve. I know one of the problems with this fuel design system is the filters, particularly the secondary (the primary can easily be primed). It is virtually impossible to install this filter with more than 20%-30% fuel (Seafoam), leaving 70%-80% air that must be expunged...and that is a long, arduous, tedious task. If you get 'er fixed LowBoy, post back. I have a Perkins as well, and have gone to skool on the fuel system...by fiat. I too will replumb the secondary filter in time.
Well, another few hours with fuel soaked arms and hands...and still a hurting cowboy. We had the filter off 3-4 times, re-checked gaskets, etc. All good. This is what we have to date: Took top cap off manual fuel pump, and found a good amount of crud on top of screen and in housing. Sterilized and reassembled. I'm not sure, but it seems to be a fairly low amount of pressure when pumping manually...is that normal? What kind of pressure (psi) should I have at the pump outlet? Secondly, The filter has fuel to it for certain, as we cracked inlet line and definitely have it there. But strangely it's not getting through the filter housing to the supply line going to the injection pump inlet side. I removed and blew through supply line...it's clear. Issue stands now, we have no fuel coming through the filter housing and to the injection pump supply line. Tomorrow I'll take it apart and blow air through the housing to see if maybe some gook got into that port when I changed the filter last week somehow. I'm dealing with a pretty dirty system...sediment bowl is now clean...should be closing in on the problem I hope. Any thoughts....comments, concerns? :beatsme
It could be a weak lift pump from dirt holding the balls from seating. Been ages since I worked on a Perkina but can the pump be disassembled? I have taken them apart expecting a blown diaphragm and it was just craip in it. It could be the pump will lift fuel but not be able to push it through the filter.
If you have a elect fuel pump stuck in your tool box, just bypass it and see what happens. I think the pressure is around 5-15 psi on the lift pump, could be more. Is your fuel tank full?. Been reading your posts, hope you get it to fire soon, that's hard on the start and batteries.
The only pressure spec I have handy (a Deere) is 2-4psi. I doubt a Perkins would be too much different. If you don't have a low pressure gauge, use 5' or more of clear tubing, hold it vertically and see how high the pump will push the diesel. 4' or more should be plenty of pressure. You are opening up the bleeders as you go right? You can't pump fuel in if the air doesn't have a place to get out of the way.
I don't know the ins' and outs' of this Perkins fuel system Catback , BUT I WILL TELL YOU THIS ! ….. The comment above you stated is NOT always TRUE !!! …… I did a similar preventative maintenance job as Lowboy did , on my 312 Cat Excavator ….. I took the sediment filter/water separator apart, this appeared to be an added after thought add on to the machine …. it was 1/3 full of water 1/6 full of sediment from the tank, the rest was fuel (this filter looks alot like the one Willie posted a pic of, with a see thru tall glass bowl) ….. After a total service we fired the machine up and it coughed and sputtered until the air in the system appeared to be clear (we did use the hand primer on the lift pump first, with the bleed screw open) …. the key word here was "APPEARED" …. after a few hrs of running the machine quit at about half tank….. we primed it up again it ran for 1/2 hr and quit again ….I filled the tank up to the top, re-primed and it ran for 6hrs flawlessly, then it quit again once it got to half tank, you'd have to see the level where it was compared to the main filter on the motor in relation to the tank level …… we changed the main filter re-primed it ran then quit. This problem haunted me for about a year, all I had to do was keep the tank full which started to become a big PITA …. The Cat guru's said it had to be the lift pump ….. we changed that, filled the tank up it ran, 7-8hrs then quit (I thought it was a bit better) ….. this PITA problem went on for another year …… one day I looked at the sight glass thru the filter on the side of the fuel tank and saw that there was an air space on top, on a hunch I pulled the lines off both sides of the filter put in a metal inline filter from NAPA …… the problem was gone …..that was 8yrs ago the inline filter is still there, it is the type that has a metal mesh screen inside of it , every once in a while the machine will starve for fuel I've got it down to less than 5 mins to jump down pull that filter blow thru it put it back and go (the fuel tank has alot of fine rust sediment in it ….. The point here is that that PITA filter did NOT leak a drop of fuel ever BUT it will suck air into the system. We have seen similar circumstances on other diesel fuel'd machines where it will not leak fuel but will draw in air ….. Weird but TRUE ! …… JMHO $.02 worth opinion …. Cheers
Still shaking my head...going out there now to start screwing with it. I'm going to blow the filter housing out first, then if nothing happens, I'll bypass it with a NAPA filter as said. And yes...we are opening "bleeders", in terms of cracking lines up to each point. I noticed some guys mention Seafoam for priming filters...I have a can here I use in the autos...what's the advantage of the Seafoam..is it just because it's thicker than fuel, and less apt to spill out when you tilt the filter to sneak it back up in the housing? I've been using Power Service, simply because I have a jug of it and it's just easy to pour is all.
Spec is 1-3 psi but that lift pump will put out around 5.. Bleeder screw is located by the name plate on the pump.. its a double screw.. a 5/16 bleeder screwed into a 7/16 screw..crack open the 5/16 and use the "box end" of the wrench. Pump the hand primer.. loosen the lines AT THE INJECTORS and crank the engine.
I've done all this numerous times, but the hard issue right as of now is there is ZERO fuel exiting the filter housing...not a stinking, lousy, God forsaken drop. It's coming in fine, but won't leave. Must be an obstruction in the port from all this disturbance. The guy that sold it to me said "I just serviced it, it ain't got 200 hours on it since then..." Uh huh...He serviced it all right. I'd hate to see the rest of his craftsmanship if that's the case. I dug out a 1/2 cup of rust from the sedimenter (primary) filter, and yesterday dug another couple tablespoons of the same gunk from the lift pump housing. I'm sure something is clogged from all this "servicing" the previous owner did recently...dern waterhead. PS: Appologies pumpguysc, but I'm gonna have to revoke your oven mitt now, it wasn't the gasket on the filter housing....I sure am sorry friend...
Are you certain you installed the gaskets correctly as thepumpguysc asked? What you are describing is indicative of a newly installed blocked secondary filter. The larger one goes into the aluminum housing, the smaller one between the bowl and the filter (the real small ones are self-explanatory). I would ascertain that first...again. This is the process I've used on that engine (I have a Perkins 1004 Turbo): (this is assuming the engine ran well before the filter change, the tank, lines and filters aren't contaminated or plugged): 1: Check your screen at the lift pump. As you have already cleaned it, if it is dirty (or plugged) again, you have a problem in the tank. With the nut off for the screen, you can give it a couple of pumps to check for good flow. 2: Check for flow at the secondary filter by loosening the bleeder and giving it a couple of pumps. 3: Check for flow at the injection pump with bleeder, or if bleeder is not accessible, you can check at return line of secondary filter, 4: Loosen four injector nuts and crank engine until air bubbles cease, tightening at rear first. This shouldn't take line: If you continue to get air bubbles, you are introducing air into the system , and this could very well be an inappropriately placed secondary fuel filter gasket...into the top of the gasket...where it cannot be. If you remain methodical, it's really rather simple (the only complex part of this system is the injection pump) once you become acquainted with your system: tank>primary filter>lift pump>secondary filter>injection pump>injectors It takes five minutes to disassemble the secondary filter to ascertain proper installation. I suggest you do it. This is also a perfect time to inspect for contamination: you have just replaced the filters, and there should be no rust, particles or contamination in the secondary, or for that matter, in the primary or lift pump, or you have a dirty system that must be cleaned.
Jcb tlb as in a 3cx ? We have trouble with the filter housing air locking usually use a mityvac hand pressure/vacuum to pull the diesel through just before the fp then crack the lines feeding the pump and crack her over then they usually chap into life
Sure it was... you just have "multiple" problems..lol And the rust thickens... eerr I mean "plot".. If I don't get my oven mitt, I'm not going to tell you how to fix the low power problem once you get it running..lol
Just for clarification: my post a few minutes ago was a response to your previous post...not this one. If you are plugged now at the secondary, you obviously have contamination that must be cleaned.
I've read this thread twice now (and don't want to read it again lol). You stated you replaced the secondary filter, but did not mention cleaning/replacing the primary filter. You did service the primary as well, correct?
I KNOW how frustrated you are, Lowboy, as I posted before mine drove me nuts for a long time ……… You've gotten some great advice here ….. one thing which is simple and stupid …. try this to eliminate things like the tank, lift pump fuel lines from tank ect. …… (I've done this a hundred times) ….Take a Outboard motor 5/6 gal boat tank with the gas line and primer bulb still attached, take the quik coupler off, fill it with diesel, squeeze the gas out of the line till diesel fuel is coming out, now bypass all of the things back from the lift pump on the motor back and hook up the remote tank direct ….. put the gas can on top of the machines hood or on a short ladder or where ever you can so the boat tank is gravity to the injection pump ….. once it's hooked up you can prime out the air thru the bleed screw by using the primer bulb in the gas line, i'd bet that the JCB will fire up ….. It's simple and effectively eliminates alot of things up to that point ………… i've done this on everything from lawn-mowers to cars, pick-ups and tractors …. you get the picture ……. "OMG" I hope something works for you soon …. Cheers
Another version of the same idea buy just the bulb: http://www.ebay.com/sch/sis.html?_kw=PRIMER+BULB+USE+WITH+1+4+ID+FUEL+LINE+HOSE+9342+7 I'm sure any good boat shop would have them. We have a 743 Bobcat and it can equipped with one from the factory just for priming the fuel system at service.
Gee whiz pumpguy, I didn't expect you to go blackmailing me over that darn oven mitt! Now you tell me there's a way to fix the low power issue, after 12 hours of frustration so far and no success yet? Thanks, I'm flattered...LOL.
The Idea is to by-pass his existing fuel supply system ...
Let me share what I've done thus far. 7 hours last Sunday...2 hours yesterday, 2 hours today...still won't start. Now I'm getting flustered, it was a simple filter change that was supposed to be a good thing. Today I removed the upper filter housing and FOOD GRADE STERILIZED it complete with a blast of air through the ports. The "banjo bolts" do not have screens...but there are definitely some microscopic orfices to pay attention to. I re-installed the housing and filter, tightened all the lines. First, I left the supply line to the injection pump completely off, and pumped the lift pump primer to watch where (or where not) the fuel was headed. I still have nothing coming through the housing which confuses me, but that doesn't take much with me. I also did what pumpguysc said, and I bled the inj. pump at the proper points as well. I installed that dreaded gasket that we all thought was the culprit while the housing was off , and upside down making it impossible to be incorrectly installed now. I went to the hardware store today with intentions of completely bypassing this filter, and installing a temporary inline filter with see-through fuel line to see if I could acheive any results. But once I thought about it, I realized I have 5 stinking lines coming into and out of that top housing. If I did do this (bypass with external in-line filter...) then what do I do with the other lines (returns..?) I have one line from lift pump to filter housing top, another one from filter housing to intake manifold, one from injectors that returns to it. Then, a supply to the distributuion end of injection pump, and lastly another line to the drive end back to the housing. Total: 5 lines. I'd LOVE with all my heart to stick an inline filter in, but what do I do with the other 3 lines? Two are returns I could easily enough tie together, but that one to the intake makes me nervous. This is getting to the ridiculous stages now.
[/QUOTE] I would certainly go that route CRAFT...could be my next move. I'm beside myself after today. I would like to bypass that stinking filter altogether, but I have to figure out how to tie the returns together (as far as fittings go,)and the one line that goes over to the intake manifold is my dilemma. You're right, I have had a LOT of good people here trying different methods, and only common sense and theory will prevail on this one. On a lighter note...a quick mention that I got my rollback truck today; a 1978 KW900A with a 3406 PCTA Cat, 13 speed, 26 ft. industrial body. Now at least I can haul this dead backhoe around if it doesn't run anymore, lol.
That one line that goes to the intake manifold is a cold start feature, and not a very effective one at that compared to an engine with glow plugs or intake grid heater. As long as you don't have starting troubles in winter you could disconnect that line and cap it off with no worries.
It actually was already disconnected willie, so that's not a biggie. How would you deal with this bypassing situation if it were you...and you already bought an inline filter and some fittings? Not permanent of course, just to see if it will light up and then eliminate the CAV filter altogether.
No big mystery here, you're not getting any fuel out of the filter. I'd take the filter element off and see if you get fuel through the housing squirting down through where the element would be. Then make sure the outlet is clean also. Assuming you've verified that the pump is putting out several feet of head/pressure. Maybe swap the old element back in to see if fuel flows through that one? Sounds like the filter is doing it's job, which is to keep trash from getting into the injection pump. If the tank is as bad as it sounds, I'd put a bigger inline filter (biggest hose diameter you can off the tank-filter base w/coarse spin on filter) between the tank and the transfer pump at least until you've run it for a while to get the loose crud out of the tank.
Don't worry too much about all the lines to the filter head Lowboy, common CAV setup on a Perky. For test purposes, disconnect the line from lift pump and line to injection pump at filter head. Find some kind of hose that will fit snugly on those lines and join them together, even fit your "see though" filter in that hose. Ignore the line going to the Thremostart (line going to intake manifold). As for the return lines from injectors and injection pump, just send them to a plastic coffee can or such, that way you can monitor fuel return while your doing your testing.
I was thinking he could just use this pump to suck out of a five gallon pale of fuel or the like if he didn't have access to the boat tank. Agree eliminating as much of the problem system as possible to get it started. Does sound like the tank needs a major cleaning before anything else.
Thanks guys. I won't have any time to mess with it again till the coming weekend due to my ball & chain (job), so it's going to eat at me until then. I'm going to first off, drain the tank and put a 1/4 turn ball valve on the outlet of it, so I can stop flow whenever I need to in the future...then start testing. The way it seems to me now after all this, is the lift pump is weak and not tough enough to push fuel through a fresh element...just a guess but that's all I've been doing throughout this whole thing anyway. The boat tank/bulb primer setup works for me...I happen to have one here. You know what also is a little confusing to me and my brother-in-law that was also trying to give me a hand here Sunday...we look at the element and wonder how the heck fuel enters and exits the element? The top and bottom is solid, normal filters are perforated for flow...I assume it flows inside the element somehow to be effective...? This CAV setup is just simply a PITA to me, I sure don't want to be messing with this again when it get's down to absolute zero up here in the winter... I have a couple of Cat filter heads in my shed off a 3406B motor I am scrapping out. I would love to just switch it over to one of those, but they only have an in & an outlet I think; gotta look closer at them yet to make sure that's accurate. If they have an extra port, I can dump the return into that, correct? Keeping in mind, there's a small (1/8" or so,) plastic line coming off the injector return lines straight back to the fuel tank on this JCB, can I just tie in and dump the returns back there without creating another government operation?
Agreed; I'll drain it first too, try and clean it out with some kerosene, then put a 1/4 turn valve on the outlet to stop flow for future deals such as this. The sedimenter (primary) did it's job though, I sterilized that last weekend as it was filled with crud, but it got through that too because the lift pump screen had a fair amount of the same crud on it as well.
All through the top. The center hole and the half moons around the outer perimeter. Which is precisely why it is imperative the gasket is properly seated in the housing (to not obstruct flow).
If you keep getting contamination in your primary, the tank is the culprit. As I stated, I find it easiest to be methodical: tank<primary<lift pump<secondary<injection pump<injectors In that order with inspection, cleaning, checking for flow, replacement.
Yup That's so true ….. my theory is to have the fuel supply higher than the main pump which gets the engine running and does NOT rely on having the lift pump actually have to lift …….. just get the engine running again ….. let it purrr out eliminating the air out of the injectors and the pump, as willie said just return the line into a pail or ??? … maybe just let it return into the OEM tank, but at least get the fuel from a clean other source ….. Lowboy …… from what I'm reading this fuel filter type NEEDS to be replaced immediately to another type, like maybe a spin on Raycor, or Wix, or Donaldson …… because if you have to jump thru these kind of Hoops every time you want to service this thing ??? …… WOW !!! …… That's what I did just simply eliminate it !!! ……. BOY !!! what a PITA !!! ……… We just need to make things more KISS principal …….. cheers
I'm with you 100% CRAFT...and pumpguy too of course. (Not trying to leave anyone out of the rolling credits either here, there's been a LOT of good sharing going on in this thread.) A simple filter replacement should not take the average man 2 weeks to perform, unless it's a union job of course. opcorn I got home at 6 pm and went straight for this PITA before it got dark. Put a 5 gallon can of fresh fuel up on the hood, ran a clear fuel line from it straight to the injection pump so I'm gravitying in this time...she spun over 8-10 times and fired right up nicely. https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=440923136027933&saved It stalled a couple times, but I think that was due to it catching an air pocket from the line once in a while...no primer bulb around as I thought I had. But the bottom line is, it RUNS! Now I'm going to take the Cat housing and a new filter, and mount it somewhere convenient to spin one on & off from now on. I'll replace the lift pump right away too. I will take the CAV filter, element and gaskets, place them firmly on a flat surface facing away from the house pointing into the woods, and VENTILATE it with my 12 gauge shotgun this weekend. That will eliminate the temptation to ever re-use it again for it's original purpose.:guns Here's what going on in it's place: I'd assume if Cat allows this style for filtration, the "Perky" will be happy, happy, happy with it too. Whew...sure was nice to hear that thing purring again. I was imagining refinancing the farm for an injector pump replacement.:crying
That Cat filter should do the trick.
An official Cat person would know this far better than I, but if I were to guess, I'd say the line under the primer pump on that filter unit is the inlet, fitting on opposite side is outlet, and that elbow fitting on top is from the return lines. Curious to see if the Cat guys can confirm.
It's sure gonna look GOOD where that OEM one used to be....
Thanks for the "credits" BUT.. I just hope the lift pump can keep the "BIG honkin" filter filled.. I HATE the old CAV Filter head..The bleed screws break or strip out [plastic], the gaskets are "metric".. the list goes on and on..the bowls are "glass.. and you have to ORDER THE PARTS.. HELL, I could have told you how to start it!!! I thought we were trying to figure out the filter head.. THATS WHY> I'm NOT getting my OVEN MITT..??? lol
not a cat guy but filters always (supposed too) filter from the outside in, that's because there is more surface area on the outside of the media. If you spin the filter off this is easy to determine where the orifices are headed the small line would have been a fuel pressure gauge tap just remove and plug it (#4 boss?).......TIO
"Lowboy" NOW I'm " HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY " for you !!!!!! …….. See that ! …. the KISS way works every time ! …. now you can get on with Life and plan around where the crap started from !!! Cheers Buddy !
Damn it...now i want an oven mit!
Willie ! …. That's MITT with 2 T's ….. gotta spell it right if you wanna get the right item sent to you …. You'll never know what you get if the shipper gets the wrong Order …. LOL ….. Bahahaha !!
Ahh, Willie, you'd just mess it up using on the grill, instead of displaying it like the prestigious trophy it is....
Sorry, I just got too overly exuberant exacerbated to spell it correctly. Mitch, it's real simple, if I can't use it at the grill...I don't need it.
HOLLY Crap Batman ! ……. Willie ! …. did you have to go and look up those words ….LOL……. Just kidding !
LoL, no, at times my mind is capable of coming up with such crap without the assistance of a thesaurus...at such times when my mind ain't full of crap! :falldownlaugh
I guess a little humour is needed here in celebration of Lowboy's Happy Happy Happy !!! ….. He's on the right path to recovery now ….LOL
I have to first re-instate thepumpguysc's prestigous Oven Mitt Award before anyone else gets the high honors though...cuz if I don't, he said he won't tell me how to turn the power up on this hoe, and I want the baddest, most souped-up Perkins in the New England region! pumpguy...please PM me your address, and I'll have my people send your people the highly sought after trophy, only earned by the "chosen few" please...:notworthy He was the first in line to show my laziness in putting the upper square O Ring on top of the filter element, instead of the groove up in the head as required. But cheese whiz, it ain't very convenient to do it right in my book; I had it off, upside-down, in my hands and still had a tough time getting it to seat properly without it wanting to twist in the groove causing a wrinkle/air leak...You have to be one of them contortionists (note the big words like willie uses,) to get that confounded thing up in there right. Between my big fat fingers and my bigger, fatter head not fitting between the loader arm and the frame, I was almost hyperventilating trying to get that thing in there when it was bolted to the motor. Wait a minute now...I just went down and read pumpguy's comment on "hoping the lift pump will keep the Cat filter full..." Oh no, please, no more negativity here, I'm starting to get depressed. :crying I was going to see if I could downsize the filter from that big honking Cat filter, to a lot shorter (but still effective filtration in microns,) Baldwin or equivilent at the friendly neighborhood truck parts store...? One of the things on my agenda is to replace that weak lift pump along with the filter housing, so hopefully I can overcome that little obstacle. willie59 stated I should not get too fancy with electrical pumps, as it's just another PITA of an electrical device to go bad, and I agree. Or maybe I should just stop being so dog gone fancy, and just keep the plastic 5 gallon can on the roof with a hose down to the injection pump as I had last night, and call it good. That's what all the neighbors around here would do, instead of all this technical stuff anyway. All I'd need then is to make sure the windshield wiper worked, so when the fuel spashed on the glass....I could give it a swipe now and again...
Hah. That's what I was muttering to myself. It was running fine before the filter change. It was only after the filter change did problems manifest. So there's obviously a fuel delivery problem...between the tank and injectors. Well, I guess the injectors can be taken out of the equation now (lol). This doesn't cure the problem. which would seem most likely to be contamination or air between the tank and injectors...and that don't cost no money,,,just time.
Take a look at this Donaldson page: http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/078263.pdf Your BF7587 converts to the Donaldson P551311 that is way down at the bottom of the page. Any of the there filters listed should fit that filter head. The P553213 is only 7.81 inch long and is good for a flow of 90 gal and hour and has the same micron rating as the BF7587. It also has a handy drain valve.
I wouldn't be too concerned with the size of the cat filter, Lowboy, it'll just give better filtration …. those hand primer pumps work awesome, once you got it there hook it up (do a moch-up run … put it inline and bungee it in place) start pumping till it starts getting a little harder ….. (ooooohhh that sounded bad ) …… then you open that small bleed screw on top of the housing just a bit, you'll see air bubbles come out with a small amount of fuel keep pumping till it appears air-free, tighten it up and fire it up …. at this point in the game DON'T be a Chicken, go for it. Once that Cat filter is full it won't matter how big it is … it still comes down to the sizes of your fuel lines going in/out which you are not modifying …. try and mount it about the same height as the old one …. that's the whole purpose of the hand primer is to not depend on the lift pump to create such a vacuum in an empty void ….. What's the cu.in. size of the Perky ?? … i'd be surprised if it's much smaller than my excavator and i've also seen Cat install those same honk'n filters on Mini's (way smaller engines) ……… We'll be staying Tuned in for the Next exciting Chapter of this Melodrama " Perky vs Lowboy " ….. Who will WIN !!! ……. LOL
The size of the filter would have to be a little smaller than the current one on the head for clearance/mounting purposes at the least CRAFTY... I'll get one like kshansen mentioned up above. That'll be the cat's meow (no pun intended of course.) Job has me busy, can't get anything done till Saturday now, but that thing will be running by day's end without a doubt. kshansen, your Donaldson link is welcome...thanks. I'll go do my homework on it and get something going in the next couple days. Lift pump, filter, clean tank out...pumpguy's secret on how to soup the pump up...man I'm going to have a hot rod when we're all said and done! I better order a case of oven mitts! Reply back with your specific sizes...current size available is "one size fits all"...
Update to fuel filter change from Hades. In between the 70 hour PITA occupation I have, I managed to locate and purchase a brand new lift pump for this JCB at a dealer. I tried searching elsewhere, but time is a definite factor here, and I was able to drive to the parts dept. door and buy this thing yesterday. Only thing that I can say that was painful was cost from the dealer, in one illustration....:crying:crying:crying Ahhhhhh, could have been worse though I think. It was $95.00. I would have given $50-$60 somewhere else I'd wager to say, at some other supplier, and I have an OEM pump in the box now, so all I need is a rain-free Saturday now, and I should have smoke coming out the rusty old stack by noontime hopefully. Sometimes you have to spend a little extra to achieve some decent results, in my case I don't have to run around all day Saturday chasing parts now. I'm patiently awaiting thepumpguysc's directions now on how to turn the fuel up a little so it has a bit more spunk...:thumbsup That would be a little handy when coming into a pile, or pushing a full bucket once in a while, or when lifting something a bit hefty and not worrying about stalling the motor.
Yair . . . Lowboy I'll just mention . . . on some of those style pumps the manual prime won't work properly (full stroke) until the engine is turned "off the cam" of the pump. . . simple but I have seen it cause grief. Cheers.
Oh, it's causing grief alright Scrub Puller...I just put the new lift pump on and still, not the results I was looking for. I got it off the cam too, BTW. Still not the proper amount of fuel flow needed to keep this little bugger running steady. I get it running (bled injector pump per pumpguy's recommendations,) crack injector lines and do get some air...it'll light up for a moment then stall. I'm assuming the filter's not staying full (haven't changed over to the Cat housing yet...tried to cheat and just throw the lift pump on first.) I took the "old" lift pump apart to see for myself how badly it was clogged, as the top had a bad amount of rust captured in the screen. But the inside (under diaphragm) wasn't hardly bad at all; a little foreign debris, but nothing like I expected. Now I have a good "spare", LOL. I need to just mount the Cat filter housing and get it over with, but I have to go chase parts to do it. Need all the right fittings and connections to come into and out of the filter, and tie all the return lines back together, so it's going to require more time and patience I guess. Right now there's a smaller supply line from the lift pump to the existing CAV filter (about 1/4" steel line,non-flared with a rubber grommet in the nut,) and then the rest are all 5/16" with 1/4" pipe nuts, flared lines. I should just mow all the lines completely off with the die grinder, and start over with all new to get them the same style. This is the third weekend I have been trying to make this thing run, but that's what happens when you work 70 hours in 5 days, Mon. thru Friday. Not a whole lotta time to do anything except hallucinate about what to do come Saturday. I need to either get these people I work for to understand I don't need to work like a farm animal at this stage of life, or find another job that will allow it automatically.
scrub puller i think i have had that problem with the pump being storked on the cam and didn't know it til now! that's why i watch this forum learn something new almost everyday from here.....TIO
You did replace those rubber line seals, no?
I haven't willie, I was aware of that being a problem. They're beat too...hardened and out of shape. What do you think about switching fuel lines over to plastic willie? It's a quick conversion, but I'm not sure about the heat, and the breakdown factors. Probably ought to just get a roll of rubber/steel braided line and some Aeroquip fittings and do it the right way, no? Another question, I'd like to mount the Cat filter on the opposing side of the engine (next to lift pump) as there's ample room for it there compared to the injection pump side. You think the extra length of supply line or anything else will be detrimental? In tying the returns all together, do as you said before and dump them into the outlet (to injection pump) side of filter, or just throw the return back to the fuel tank as it's set up now, coming off the injector rail? I asked the JCB parts man for a price on the manuals for this machine for reference. He was glad to quote me $150.00 for a parts manual, and about $780.00 for a service manual. That's 33% of what I paid for the whole machine, LOL. I better not get any of you guys mad at me here now, or I'll be paying through the nose!
Future reference....A good way to check the lift pump is to put your finger over the inlet hole. If it's good, you should feel suction and the diaphragm will stick making the manual lever easy to push. Since this happened after a filter change I'm still going with an air leak somewhere before the lift pump. Can you list the items in order from the tank to the injector pump? The filter housing might not be the best design but modifying the system would be my last option.
That's exactly what I was thinking. There's probably millions of these filter set ups out there, and they work fine most of the time. I'd hate to see you finally figure out how to change over to a different filter and then find the real problem, or even solve the the problem with a new filter when you could clean the old one just as easily. There's a reason they didn't tie all of the returns together, and it's not just because they're British It may just have something to do with bleeding air....
Hmmm. As I stated earlier, I had an identical problem with my Perkins. So it worked fine before the filter change, didn't start after the change, worked fine when you bypassed everything to the secondary filter, now you've reconnected and it won't start again. I just don't understand why you don't go about it methodically. Aside from cleaning the tank and the injection pump, I can test/clear everything from the tank to the injectors in a couple of hours. You plainly have air or an obstruction between the tank and injection pump (or perhaps now you confined it to between the lift pump and secondary pump...I really don't know what you've solved at this point). tank<primary<lift pump<secondary filter<injection pump<injectors If you go about it methodically, you clean/purge the system out. The tank and injection pump are the only time consuming things. I suggest, again, you start from scratch and purge from the tank to the injectors in that order. In a couple of hours you should have cleaned the system and purged all the air (barring a sediment filled tank, blown injection pump or injectors...but I believe you've eliminated the latter two sources as problems with the last "clever" thing you did with an external tank...which was a complete waste of time...was it not?). I too was stumped a few weeks ago on a Perkins 4 cyl turbo, and after several hours of not making headway by putzing around, decided to start at the source and go all the way to the injectors, one at a time, loosening, priming (cleaning if need be), reconnecting, and then going onto the next pump or filter. And in two hours, I cleaned and purged, and once again she starts immediately, and purrs like a kitten. Just sayin'.
I would have to say I think I am going after it methodically Catback...and I did indeed do everything from cleaning tank, to tracing back to the injector pump for any obstructions. I had it purring like a kitten off a can of fuel on the hood with a clear line from the can to the SUPPLY line to the injector pump elimating the filter altogether....what more can you do to test for a problem in my book? I realize it's something directly associated with this filter housing whether it be a seal in the substandard British design of the feed line being unflared and having a rubber seal on a straight line, to the gasket in the housing itself, as there was no problem before I changed the fuel filter. There may very well be millions of these filter heads in service all across the globe, but mine is breaking my ever-loving arse. So to eliminate any future fuel filter change problems that take 3 weeks to fix, I just want to get the problem resolved by changing to a housing that never gives you any trouble, that requires a simple spin of the filter instead of screwing with gaskets and O rings and all the over-bearing unecessary other components that are inline here, is all I'm looking for. You should be able to fill a new filter with fresh juice, spin it on, and go back to work; not spend every free hour on the weekends doing what I am doing. This wasn't really a matter of contamination in the fuel system as much as it is a miserable component to deal with, that probably hadn't been serviced in who knows how long and therefore needs more than just the element, like all the little rubber seals and all that I don't have around. Again, I did all the forementioned things from the tank to the injectors. It runs without the filter starving the engine for fuel...so the only methodology I can conclude with is, scrap that british morphadite seconday filter and replace it with one made in Peoria, Illinois...:IMO
If, in fact you determined the sole problem with fuel delivery is in the secondary filter [system], that makes your problem much simpler I believe. I frankly don't see the wisdom in replacing the housing and filter with a different type. It worked fine before you disassembled it, and, presumably, has for years. And unless you have access to a CNC machine that can mill a custom housing, you are going to be replacing all or most of your fuel lines as well. That's a lot of otherwise unnecessary work. I would disassemble the secondary (again) and replace all of the seals and gaskets (and filter, if need be) again. All of the seals and gaskets. Keep us updated please, and stay cool and good luck.
Should be a simple system to hook up. Fuel line from tank to lift pump, then line to "Cat" filter head, then to injection pump. Return line from injection pump and injectors to tank. I would go with Aeroquip AQP Socketless Hose or equivalent. It's good for 300psi in the sizes you need. -06 for the supply side and -04 for the return side lines. Properly installed so it doesn't rub any where it will out last the machine and be easier to work with than the steel braided hose and fitting. Any good hose supply store or NAPA dealer should have some on the shelf along with any fittings needed. And the little extra distance needed to mount in an easy to access place should not be a problem. Sometimes it's just not worth the headaches to find a problem and once the machine is running good you can run over that filter housing and release the frustration it's causing you. That being all said I have worked with those filter heads many times and have at least one on a JCB at work that has never been a problem. I just don't like the glass bowl on the bottom of ours, waiting for the day when mister clumsy drops it on shop floor!
You get what I'm saying kshansen. It's been too frustrating dealing with this filter in general, it has morphadite sized lines as well as too many going to and from it when all I need to do is come into the Cat housing with 06 line, and out with 04 (exactly what I was looking for too, was the sizing you just revealed, thanks.) I own the Cat housing already...all I need is a few feet of hose and a few fittings to complete the conversion. The trouble probably all along has been in the fact that this machine hasn't seen a filter change or any disturbance to the OEM filter in a long time, and here I come along trying to do what's right and I paid the price after disassembling everything that is either dried up or worn in the line seats. All I need to do tomorrow is stop and get the parts, and I may downsize the filter from the present Baldwin down to something shorter to work with. I'm on the home stretch with this S.O.B. now, and thanks for the input...it's where I was headed to.
One last simple test before I began the conversion to Cat filter; I removed the CAV filter. I tied in a new clear plastic inline filter from the lift pump line, to the injecton pump directly. Fired right up, but only ran 60 seconds or so and stalls. Will fire back up, run 60 seconds and stall. I took the line off the supply to the injection pump as it was stalling just now, and it was pumping full-head of fuel, strong stream. I have flow; but won't stay running. There was a leak at the top of the injector pump cover, so I tightened the two (sealed) stud nuts gently and it stopped. Pretty much out of ideas now, thinking maybe the pump did get some debris past the filter about the time I changed it...I don't know.
along those lines, take the suction line from the pump and put it in a container of clean fuel, if she still stalls after 60 seconds, I can guarantee adding the cat filter won't make it run better. I can't remember if you checked the outlet FITTING from the injection pump back to the filter, but if it keeps stalling that would be the place I'd look.
Sounds like the return line is blocked
Yep, blocked return line.
I have...and it's tight and dry. I blew it all off with air to make it clean for inspection...just thought about it after reading yours and shopguy's last post here...I have that return from the outlet of injection pump tied back into the injector rail return, which is a brain freeze on my part, due to being half nuts over this now. Can't get back to work on it unless I had a slower work day this week, so it's there till next weekend unfortunately. I might get an hour during the week and I'll run the return into a can and see if she stays running for more than 60 seconds.
Try just taking the return fitting off the pump and let fuel pour, see if it runs. Last one I had was a clogged fitting at the pump, I pulled most of my hair out, then pumpguy saved me from pulling the rest. :notworthy
I will mitch, thanks.
I know everybody's probably sick of this thread by now, but I'm pleased to announce that the Perkins is officially running out there like a Swiss watch. (Or an Elgin, before they started making them in China.) thepumpguysc needs a big hand here. He steered me step by step (off the forum) in a procedure to check things out and clean what needed cleaning. I just got it running (day off, dr. appointment later,) this morning, even thought it still started/stalled a couple times until I became suspicious of how I had the return line off the injection pump looped back to the nozzle return loop with a clear line...Once I disconnected the "loop", and ran the return into a jug, eveything seemed to come back to life. I believe willie59 mentioned this before too, but I don't wanna give him a big head.:lmao I took a YouTube video of the victory for us all to sit back and rejoice about! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nTuupcUfwc&list=UUeJ-LM5zlUYmtjnDPnZswag&index=1 It runs so good, I'm tempted to leave it alone and just let the fuel return line run on the ground for the rest of my life, but I'm thinking that wouldn't be healthy for the aquifer eventually. The flip side of it is, good weed/dust control. I could mount a 5 gallon bucket on the side of the machine and when it gets close to full, just dump it back into the tank too, but that's a lot of work/messy situation and if I forget, well, you know... So if I decided to do it the right way...to simplify it all, might as well tie the pump return and the nozzle return together and go right back into the fuel tank to the barbed fitting, and eliminate the need for the bucket...correct? (I hope most of you know I'm kidding about the bucket, I try to use humor in everything I do.) Good work, all of you guys for the input, the laughter, the help. :notworthy
As an after-thought to the previous post; I have a nice filter head which is the primary off a 3406B Cat, with a Baldwin BF1212 spin on, that I'd really like to use because it's simple...one inlet, one outlet only. The secondary has the primer pump, and a few extra fittings, all the more places to cause air and more grief. I looked on another site and found the BF1212 is a 20 micron filter. I'm thinking I need something down around 5-6 microns...? That said, is there any filter experts here that know of a 5-6 micron spin on that replaces the 1212 that threads onto this head, before I go any further? I don't care what color/brand it is, just want it to thread on so I can go ahead and mount the head and be done with this deal for good. Or is it not even possible at all with this head I want to use...? (Probably isn't, because THAT would be way too simple.) :Banghead
There is a NAPA tech line that is great for questions like that. I don't have it with me, but they can cross a filter by threads and head setup in a minute or two.
That's a good thought mitch...I can deal with that tomorrow. I'm sure there's a filter with those specs that will thread onto that housing out there somewhere. The good news is it's running!
if its running why not leave it alone then??? just askin? lol
Just because it's only got a temporary automotive filter on it currently, I wouldn't trust that for long, given the contamination issues I just went through. Plus, I want to put it all back together somewhat normal, so all I have to do is spin a filter on when the time comes, and not spend 3-4 weeks getting it running again...√ I have the housing, just need to cross reference the proper filter and complete the mounting and securing of all the lines for good.
Lowboy, go back to the link I posted from Donaldson: http://www.donaldson.com/en/engine/support/datalibrary/078263.pdf They have several different micron ratings down to 3 microns for filters that fit that head, from 3 to 140 microns. What the heck is up with that 140? my screen door would be better filter than that!
I hear ya...140 microns, what's that convert to; 1/2"? May as well use a hunk of screening plant cloth.:tong I was at my truck repair/parts shop this afternoon, and had the parts man look up the crossover from the BF1212 for something to thread onto the Cat head. I have a Wix 33109 (10 micron, short spin-on about 6" long,) that will do the trick nicely. I was concerned about going smaller microns for restrictiveness. I don't have enough fittings/bushings to plumb it tonight, but tomorrow I'll run and get some straight fittings and bush it down to the 1/2" in/out on the head, triple clamp the hoses, and I should be in high cotton now. No elbows for me; less restriction. Straight in, straight out, plenty of room. Every 90* bend it is said, resembles 7 ft. of extra line. Tomorrow is JCB wrap-up day, and Kenworth wheel seal r&r day too. Plenty of chores for the weekend.
Hi I've found the first half of a can of wd40 work s great for priming An engine. If it had electric power there before you took the filter off that's not the problem
He (LowBoy) found and fixed the problem along time ago ….Electrical had nothing to do with it ….. Cheers !
I borrowed a forklift last year and ran it out of fuel and decided it would be good to replace the fuel filter.....a cav style just like the pics above....and had 2 people the owner of it, my father inlaw and my dad helping me and we spent quite some time before finally taking the new filter element down a looking at it........if you mash the square o-ring down into the element then you are blocking the ports of the element = no fuel flow..........I think that is your problem......you even mentioned seeing this I think in the quote below.......this is a goofy setup for a filter and base..........it sure had us all stumped we used rags, air tanks, starting fluid, etc. before the fil found it!!! You know what also is a little confusing to me and my brother-in-law that was also trying to give me a hand here Sunday...we look at the element and wonder how the heck fuel enters and exits the element? The top and bottom is solid, normal filters are perforated for flow...I assume it flows inside the element somehow to be effective...?
A micron is about 0.00004", so 140 microns would be about 0.006" 1/2" is 12,700 microns.